Return to Transcripts main page

CNN NEWSROOM

FBI Investigating U.S. Soldiers' Deaths in Niger; White House Chief of Staff Under Fire. Aired 3-3:30p ET

Aired October 20, 2017 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[15:00:01]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SARAH HUCKABEE SANDERS, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: As General Kelly pointed out, if you're able to make a sacred act like honoring American heroes all about yourself, you're an empty barrel.

If you don't understand that reference, I will put it a little more simply. As we say in the South, all hat, no cattle.

QUESTION: (OFF-MIKE) Have you seen the speech?

HUCKABEE SANDERS: I have.

QUESTION: And then you know that most of it was her effusively praising these FBI agents. And when she was talking about what she did in Congress, she was not talking about securing of $20 million. She was talking about naming the building after these FBI agents --

HUCKABEE SANDERS: She was also talking about that.

QUESTION: -- who she then went on to effusively praise. And that was the bulk of the speech.

HUCKABEE SANDERS: She also mentioned that, and she also had quite a few comments that day that weren't part of that speech and weren't part of that video that were also witnessed by many people that were there, what General Kelly referenced yesterday

QUESTION: (OFF-MIKE) specifically because --

(CROSSTALK)

HUCKABEE SANDERS: Exactly what he said. There was a lot of grandstanding. He was stunned that she had taken that opportunity to make it about herself.

QUESTION: Can he come out here and talk to us about this at some point --

(CROSSTALK)

HUCKABEE SANDERS: I think he has addressed that pretty thoroughly yesterday. QUESTION: Well, he was wrong yesterday in talking about getting the

money.

(CROSSTALK)

HUCKABEE SANDERS: If you want to go after General Kelly, that's up to you, but I think that that -- if you want to get into a debate with a four-star Marine general, I think that that's something highly inappropriate.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN ANCHOR: In fact, "The Sun Sentinel" has found during the 2015 event, Wilson actually took several minutes to honor all of the law enforcement and first-responders who attended the event.

Joining me now is CNN senior White House correspondent Jeff Zeleny.

So, Jeff, one reporter today in the briefing pointed out that the president made what many considered inappropriate remarks at the CIA just after he was inaugurated. The president was standing in front of really a sacred space, a wall of stars without names on them because of the secretive nature of the CIA, stars that recognize officers killed in the line of duty.

How did the White House respond to that?

JEFF ZELENY, CNN SENIOR WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: Well, Brianna, not surprisingly, Sarah Sanders there at that White House briefing essentially said it's not the same thing. You cannot draw a comparison or a parallel between them. And then she moved on to shift to other things.

But, look, I mean, the reality here is that this briefing was fairly extraordinary, in the sense that she was defending everything that the chief of staff said yesterday, but then, as we just played that clip right there, essentially suggesting that the White House chief of staff, who is a retired Marine general, should not be questioned here.

So, yes, he has incredible credibility, particularly in this White House. But that does not mean that his recollection of the events sort of holds up to the video that we have seen. And in the video, Brianna, she also goes on to praise the bipartisan work of Congress in getting this building passed.

She praises House Republican Speaker John Boehner at the time and President Obama on this. So, in terms of congressional speeches, it was pretty typical. Yes, there was some patting herself on the back, but also praising this bipartisan work of Congress. So it was certainly misconstrued yesterday by John Kelly.

KEILAR: Yes. All right, Jeff Zeleny at the White House, thank you, sir.

I want to get now to Manu Raju. Manu, you are on Capitol Hill. And the defense secretary has come up

to Capitol Hill to meet with Senator McCain, who has been pretty upset about not getting information when it comes to the deaths of four troops in Niger.

How did this meeting come about?

MANU RAJU, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes.

In fact, Senator McCain said that he learned about those attacks from reading it in the newspaper. He said that he actually had no knowledge about this from any briefing that he's gotten from any senior-level administration official.

And this is significant, of course, because Senator McCain is the chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee and someone who has oversight of the Pentagon and all military branches.

He's been absolutely furious that he has not gotten information from anybody in the administration about exactly what happened. Even as late as yesterday afternoon, he still said he had no information, and actually went to the actually rather extreme level of saying that, I'm going to have to subpoena the administration if necessary, if I don't get the information that I need, and also, Brianna, suggesting that he could even hold up some key nominees that President Trump wants to get confirmed in order to get the information here.

So, clearly, Secretary Mattis recognizing he has a very upset and powerful senator that he needs to brief, one reason why he came up to Capitol Hill this afternoon to talk in this closed, private meeting. We will see if this satisfies Senator McCain's concerns.

But he's not the only one, Brianna, that is concerned. A number of members just feel like they have not gotten the information you normally would get, the ones who serve on those key committees, because the administration has just not given them or the public real information about what happened here, Brianna.

KEILAR: Yes, some smoothing over in order, for sure. Manu Raju, thank you so much for that.

RAJU: Thank you.

[15:05:00]

My next guest served with John Kelly's son, Second Lieutenant Robert Kelly.

Corporal Sebastian Gallegos also accepted a Purple Heart from General Kelly. He lost his arm serving the country.

And, Corporal, I want to thank you so much for being here to give us your unique and such important perspective on what has become a really big controversy here that I'm sure you have been observing from San Antonio.

When you heard John Kelly make his comments about what he was told when Lieutenant Kelly was killed, what was your reaction?

CPL. SEBASTIAN GALLEGOS (RET.), PURPLE HEART RECIPIENT: Well, what he looked to do was to convey that he had intimate knowledge of the situation that the Gold Star family.

In the case in Niger had, he -- what he was looking to do was illustrate that he had knowledge, a personal knowledge of what she was going through in the process of losing a loved one in service to the country, and what I had was that there is nobody better to advise the president than him on that specific matter.

KEILAR: When you're looking at all of this back and forth about the president's, as John Kelly said, well-intentioned call to the widow of La David Johnson, and then obviously the offense taken on the part of the family and the congresswoman who is a family friend, and then you see John Kelly speaking yesterday, what do you make of all of this?

GALLEGOS: Well, I think that the role of the president to be consolidator in chief, his call was intended to console the family.

And I think that, to an extent, that, to do so, to heal those wounds so quickly is beyond the limits of language. And what General Kelly was looking to illustrate was that the call wasn't always made by every administration because the number of deaths and casualties that they were dealing with, and that language is inherently subjective.

And as a Gold Star family, she has the right to interpret it any way she -- it's her prerogative to interpret it any way she feels fit to. And we owe her that respect as Americans. And if she took offense to it, then that is a right as somebody who lost somebody in the plight of service to this country.

KEILAR: You obviously know a lot of Gold Star families. Have you been talking with your friends, your fellow former service members? What are they saying? What is the conversation like as we watch all of this swirl?

GALLEGOS: I think that, personally, the opinions of Gold Star families is as diverse as the loved ones that are lost.

And I think a lot of times what happens is that people look to polarize negatives before all the facts are out. And when you see the headlines -- and I saw the headlines myself and took offense. And I wouldn't defend indefensible, callous, and unsavory comments that brought Gold Star families into the political sphere.

But when you see these charged headlines from the BuzzFeeds, the Breitbarts, and they're looking to write a narrative before the facts are out, I think that what happened was, if the Gold Star family interpreted the president's remarks as callous and terse, then that's her right, because interpretation is inherently subjective to that person.

KEILAR: So, Sebastian, when you look at how this should have developed, instead of how it did, then do you think that the more appropriate way for this to have come to a resolution would have been for there to just be an acknowledgment from the White House?

Because you say, look, if she felt this way, that's her prerogative. Do you think there should have been an acknowledgment to the widow, instead of this running away and that debate between the White House and this congresswoman? How do you think it should have resolved?

GALLEGOS: To my understanding, to my understanding, typically, at least there's at least a letter, and if you're talking about notification, and a prepared statement directly from the White House, I think that that's more part of the decorum that's offered to Gold Star families.

And in this case, I think what General Kelly was trying to convey was that he advised Trump to --

(CROSSTALK)

KEILAR: Corporal I want you to stand by for just one moment. We will be right back with you in a moment.

Want to listen in as General Mattis and Senator McCain are talking on the Hill.

(JOINED IN PROGRESS)

[15:10:00]

SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R), ARIZONA: I thought that were not getting a sufficient amount of information. And we are clearing a lot of that up now.

QUESTION: Yesterday, at the press conference with Ms. White, she said that the Pentagon was providing (OFF-MIKE) with as much information as they needed. Do you agree with that?

MCCAIN: As much what?

QUESTION: As much information as required.

MCCAIN: On what?

QUESTION: Just generally speaking. Ms. White alluded to the fact that the Pentagon was being fully transparent (OFF-MIKE)

Secretary, do you agree with that?

JAMES MATTIS, U.S. SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: Let me bring -- let me address that.

QUESTION: Please.

MATTIS: We can do better at communication. We can always improve on communication, and that's exactly what we will do.

MCCAIN: And could I just add, the relationship that the secretary and I have goes back 20 years. It's one of respect. It's one of appreciation, and it's one of honoring the service. And so we continue to try to improve our lines of communication, and our regular meetings will be very helpful in that area.

QUESTION: (OFF-MIKE)

MCCAIN: We are discussing that. (OFF-MIKE)

QUESTION: Senator, you said yesterday early in the day about the possibility of issuing subpoenas to the Pentagon to get information. Is that still on the table?

MCCAIN: Depends on whether we get the witnesses or not.

QUESTION: And who do you want to come as a witness?

MCCAIN: The head of the cyber --

QUESTION: Secretary --

MCCAIN: -- who was (OFF-MIKE) place for him at the hearing yesterday.

QUESTION: Mr. Secretary, do you expect (OFF-MIKE)

MATTIS: When the Senate or the House calls, they always show up. That's my policy. And I have the technology to make that happen.

QUESTION: Secretary Mattis, on the raid in Niger, can you say if the president ordered that particular action, sir?

MATTIS: No, I don't discuss those kinds of things. Thank you.

(CROSSTALK)

MCCAIN: Let me close saying the secretary and I have had a 20-year relationship. We have had our problems and issues.

But I'm proud to work with him. And I'm proud of the work that he's doing. And we will continue these regular meetings, so that we can work together in these very difficult and challenging times.

I am proud to know him.

QUESTION: Secretary Mattis, would you say that it's a matter of days --

(CROSSTALK)

MCCAIN: Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you.

KEILAR: All right.

You're looking at Secretary Mattis, the defense secretary, leaving Capitol Hill, where he has been meeting with Senator John McCain, the head of the Armed Services Committee on the Senate side, some smoothing over to do there after John McCain was very upset, talking about subpoenas when it came to getting information about what happened to those four service members in Niger who died two weeks ago.

A lot of information not out, a lot of questions, and presumably the senator got some answered, and certainly there was some smoothing over to do there that we just witnessed as they came out together in joint remarks.

I want to bring back in Corporal Gallegos, who is -- he served with John Kelly's son, Robert Kelly. He's very familiar with the general.

And I do want to go back to asking you about General Kelly, because you said to us back in August that -- that was when General Kelly had just become White House chief of staff. You said that John Kelly should not be seen as a partisan political figure.

It certainly seemed that, yesterday, as we watched him in the Briefing Room, that may have changed a little bit. Do you feel the same way about that?

GALLEGOS: I feel like what you witnessed was a range of emotions that he felt personally, because the subject matter involved a Gold Star family and something that he's too intertwined with personally to depart from emotionally.

There's no disconnection there. I think that what -- he was trying to assuage the fears of those that felt it was an affront to the traditional decorum offered to Gold Star families. And in that, his remarks in themselves were subject to the emotions that he was feeling at this time.

KEILAR: Yes, it was so clear, and just the emotions, I think -- so many people were feeling them as they listened to him speak. It was really an extraordinary appearance by General Kelly.

And, Corporal Gallegos, thank you so much. We really appreciate you talking to us today.

GALLEGOS: Yes, ma'am.

KEILAR: And, next, what did go wrong in Niger? That is what Senator John McCain wants to know.

That's part of the reason why the secretary was up on the Hill talking to him. The FBI is now joining this investigation into failed intelligence that told those U.S. troops it was going to be OK where they were visiting this village and ultimately ended in an ambush.

[15:15:10]

I'm going to speak with a journalist who has done extensive research on U.S. military operations in Africa.

Plus, a presidents club without the president. Just one day after George W. Bush and Barack Obama really attacked President Trump, maybe not by name, but pretty clearly strong words for him, hear why all five living former presidents are appearing together without the current commander in chief.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KEILAR: Defense Secretary James Mattis has just met with Senator John McCain on Capitol Hill, as lawmakers are demanding answers on what led to the deaths of four American service members killed in a terror raid in Niger.

This is the deadliest combat mission during President Trump's short presidency. And in the search for answers, the FBI now has a team on the ground helping to collect evidence and find out if this deadly ambush was a result of an intelligence failure.

[15:20:07]

One thing that the Pentagon is stressing is that no troops are left behind. This in response to questions about how Sergeant La David Johnson became separated from his group and did not make it on to that French rescue plane with his comrades.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LT. GEN. KENNETH MCKENZIE, JOINT STAFF DIRECTOR: In the moment of contact, no one's left behind. Either U.S., our partner Nigerian forces or French were on the ground actively searching for the soldier.

The fact of the matter is, it's a battlefield. We just had a significant engagement. It's tough country. It's out in the middle of nowhere. It's not perhaps as clear as it might appear in the bright lights of this briefing room.

But we spent -- a lot of men and a lot of women search very hard to find. It took us a little while to do that. We didn't leave him behind and we searched until we found him and we brought him home. The sense that somehow it was a desolate site, we went back and didn't search for the soldier, nothing could be further from the truth.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: Joining me now is Nick Turse, He's a fellow at The Nation Institute. He's also the author of "Tomorrow's Battlefield: But.S. Proxy Wars and Secret Ops in Africa."

So, Nick, it is still not clear why American forces and Nigerians arranged this October 4 meeting with local tribal leaders. But you do know this area and probably, I imagine, when this happened, you thought, my goodness, this is what I have reported on, what is so secretive, and it's now thrust into the mainstream attention of so many Americans.

What surprised you about the details of what they were doing there? Anything?

NICK TURSE, THE NATION INSTITUTE: Well, it's not all that shocking to me.

I have been covering the U.S. military in Africa for the last five years. But the U.S. military has been operating in and around Niger since the early 2000s, really since just after 9/11. At the time, I might add, the U.S. government did not believe that there were any transregional or transnational terror groups in the area.

What they were looking to do was strengthen the military, strengthen the governments in that area and turn Northwest Africa into a counterterrorism bulwark. And, quite obviously, that hasn't turned out as they expected.

KEILAR: No, that's right.

And so CNN is reporting that the attackers are part of the ISIS- affiliated group ISIS in the Greater Sahara. What can you tell us about them?

TURSE: Well, this is a newer splinter group that's emerged in the region of late.

As I mentioned, that the Pentagon didn't really see any kind of transnational terror groups when they first entered the region, but since then, it's become a self-fulfilling prophesy in some ways. We have al Qaeda in the Islamic Maghreb that has a presence there, a group called Al-Mourabitoun, the Movement for Unity and Jihad in West Africa, Ansar al-Din, Boko Haram, which in the Lake Chad region, and now this new Islamic State affiliate.

So, while correlation doesn't equal causation, there's no denying that there's a plethora of terror groups now operating throughout this entire region.

KEILAR: Well, Nick, we really appreciate your perspective on this, as you have spent five years covering these operations in Africa. Thank you so much.

TURSE: Thanks so much.

KEILAR: And next, all five former presidents will host a fund-raiser for hurricane victims tomorrow, President Trump not invited, this as both President George W. Bush and President Obama make some not-so- veiled comments criticizing him.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:28:10]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

QUESTION: Have you seen the speech?

HUCKABEE SANDERS: I have.

QUESTION: And then you know that most of it was her effusively praising these FBI agents. And when she was talking about what she did in Congress, she was not talking about securing of $20 million. She was talking about naming the building after these FBI agents --

HUCKABEE SANDERS: She was also talking about that.

QUESTION: -- who she then went on to effusively praise. And that was the bulk of the speech.

HUCKABEE SANDERS: She also mentioned that, and she also had quite a few comments that day that weren't part of that speech and weren't part of that video that were also witnessed by many people that were there, what General Kelly referenced yesterday

QUESTION: (OFF-MIKE) specifically because --

(CROSSTALK)

HUCKABEE SANDERS: Exactly what he said. There was a lot of grandstanding. He was stunned that she had taken that opportunity to make it about herself.

QUESTION: Can he come out here and talk to us about this at some point --

(CROSSTALK)

HUCKABEE SANDERS: I think he has addressed that pretty thoroughly yesterday.

QUESTION: Well, he was wrong yesterday in talking about getting the money.

(CROSSTALK)

HUCKABEE SANDERS: If you want to go after General Kelly, that's up to you, but I think that that -- if you want to get into a debate with a four-star Marine general, I think that that's something highly inappropriate.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: OK. Well, that last comment there raising eyebrows, the White House not long ago saying that Chief of Staff John Kelly stands by his claims about the congresswoman.

They were incorrect, as he argued that she was being very political and inappropriate in some comments that she made in 2015, but the White House clearly saying that he stands by his sentiment.

She's at the center of this feud involving the president's condolence call for a soldier's widow.

I want to bring in Rick Wilson -- he's a Republican strategist -- and also Ben Ferguson, a political commentator here at CNN.

OK, so, Ben, I'm particularly interested in what you thought about the last thing that Sarah Sanders said, where she basically said, you know, if you get into a debate with -- this idea that you can't get into a debate with a general.

BEN FERGUSON, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Yes, look, I certainly think you can get into a debate with a general.