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Trump Picks Haley to be U.S. Ambassador to U.N.; Trump Shifts on Key Campaign Promises; Trump Brushes Off Conflict of Interest Questions. Aired 9-9:30a ET

Aired November 23, 2016 - 09:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[09:00:08] CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: Thank you very much. You guys have a happy turkey day as well. NEWSROOM starts now.

And good morning, I'm Carol Costello. Thank you so much for joining me. The Donald Trump administration taking shape this morning. Just minutes ago, the Trump team announcing that South Carolina Governor Nikki Haley will be formally nominated to serve as U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations. Haley, you might recall, remained critical of Mr. Trump even after he clinched their Party's nomination.

CNN's Sara Murray is here with more on this. Good morning.

SARA MURRAY, CNN POLITICAL REPORTER: Good morning, Carol. Well, that's right, Donald Trump is making it official this morning, naming Nikki Haley as his pick to be the U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations.

Now, this is interesting because there was a lot of speculation about whether it was a head fake, that Donald Trump was just meeting with people who have been critical of him in the past. This is an indication that he's taking it seriously, that he's really willing to put some of these people in top slots. It's also an indication that he's taking seriously the criticism that, you know, maybe his Cabinet was looking to be a little bit old, a little bit White, and Nikki Haley adds a dash of diversity to that. She's a woman and she's the daughter of Indian immigrants.

But while they're making this official, there are still plenty of speculation about other potential Cabinet positions, and there's a lot of flurry right now around Donald Trump's potential pick for Secretary of State. We're told Mitt Romney is one of the leading candidates for that position, that he's taking this notion seriously. He's talking it over with his family members, with his advisers, taking it under consideration. But Rudy Giuliani, who is a Donald Trump loyalist, who has been one of his stalwart advisers, remains in the mix for this job. So it's unclear exactly when we're going to get that announcement.

And Ben Carson who, for a while, appeared like he may have been out of the mix for a top slot is back in it again. Donald Trump actually took to Twitter to say that Ben Carson is still under consideration for the Department of Housing and Urban Development. He said, "I'm seriously considering Dr. Ben Carson as the head of HUD. I've gotten to know him. He's a greatly talented person who loves people."

And in case that is not enough for you, just to take it one step further of a phase, who knows, maybe we'll see emerging former CIA Director David Petraeus. Take a look in what he had to say about potentially serving a President Trump.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JUSTIN WEBB, HOST, BBC RADIO 4 TODAY: Would you help him? Would you serve?

GEN. DAVID PETRAEUS (Ret), FORMER DIRECTOR, CENTRAL INTELLIGENCE AGENCY: Yes. I've been in a position before where a president has turned to me in the Oval Office in a difficult moment, and turned without any pleasantries and said, I'm asking you as your President and Commander-in-Chief to take command of the international security assistance force in Afghanistan. The only response can be, yes, Mr. President.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MURRAY: Now, if Donald Trump did actually tap General David Petraeus for something, that would be sort of an interesting conundrum. You know, he hammered Hillary Clinton, saying she mishandled classified material. This was an issue with David Petraeus, too. He stepped amidst a scandal. He was having an extramarital affair, and he actually plead guilty to a misdemeanor count of mishandling confidential information.

But that said, Trump has said many complimentary things about him throughout the course of the campaign. So we'll see how this subplot plays out here, Carol.

COSTELLO: It's always interesting. Sara Murray, many thanks to you. So all of this news comes amidst confusion over some of Trump's policy positions. "Politico" actually counted 15 flip flops since Election Day. A few examples.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT-ELECT OF THE UNITED STATES: Torture works. OK, folks? You know, I have these guys, torture doesn't work. Believe me it works, OK? And waterboarding is your minor form. Some people say it's not actually torture. Let's assume it is. But they ask me the question, what do you think of waterboarding? Absolutely fine. But we should go much stronger than waterboarding. That's the way I feel.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: OK. But yesterday, Trump told "The New York Times," "General Mattis said, 'I've never found it to be useful. Give me a pack of cigarettes and a couple of beers and I'll do better." And Trump went on to say, he said, he was very impressed by General Mattis' answer. "Torture is not going to make the kind of difference that a lot of people are thinking." General Mattis, by the way, is under consideration for Secretary of Defense.

And then there's Trump's campaign promise on Hillary Clinton.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: Hillary Clinton will be under investigation for a long, long time for her many crimes against our nation, our people, our democracy, likely concluding in a criminal trial.

CROWD: Lock her up. Lock her up. Lock her up.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: OK. But Trump is changing his tune on that, too, telling the "Times," quote, "I don't want to hurt the Clintons. I really don't. It's just not something that I feel very strongly about."

And then there's this about climate change. Back in March, Mr. Trump told "The Washington Post," quote, "I'm not a great believer in man- made climate change." But yesterday, he told the "Times," quote, "I think there is some connectivity. Some, something."

[09:05:07] So let's talk about this and more. With me now is Michael Grynbaum. He's the media correspondent for "The New York Times." Jackie Kucinich is here. She's a CNN political analyst and Washington bureau chief for "The Daily Beast." And Jason Johnson joins me. He's the politics editor of the theroot.com and professor of political science at Morgan State University. Welcome to all of you.

JACKIE KUCINICH, WASHINGTON BUREAU CHIEF, THE DAILY BEAST: Thank you.

JASON JOHNSON, POLITICS EDITOR, THEROOT.COM: Good to be here, carol.

COSTELLO: Thanks for coming in. So, Michael, you were in the room when President-elect Trump sat down with "The New York Times." Mr. Trump also says his big, beautiful wall will now consist partly of fencing, so what are voters to believe?

MICHAEL GRYNBAUM, MEDIA CORRESPONDENT, THE NEW YORK TIMES: Yes. You know, Donald Trump has a chameleon-like ability to kind of speak to the audience that's in front of him. And the Donald Trump that came to our 16th floor board room yesterday was very different from the one that we see out at rallies, even the one that spoke with television news executives the day before, and by many accounts, ripping into them saying they were dishonest and unfair.

The meeting with the "Times" senior personnel was much more civil, much more cordial. There were some tough questions, but it never reached a point of being, I would say, heated. And certainly, we didn't see any kind of anger from Mr. Trump against journalists. He even said that the "Times" was a world jewel, just hours after, on Twitter, saying it was a failing institution that treated him with a nasty tone.

COSTELLO: Jason, this is just so hard to understand. Do you think that Mr. Trump is really softening his positions on some of these things, or is he just thinking things out and then he'll revert to his, you know, pre-election?

JOHNSON: I think the political science term for this, Carol, is liar. President-elect Trump is a liar. There are things that he's saying -- look, we all know that politicians change their tone, right?

COSTELLO: That is harsh, Jason.

JOHNSON: It is. It is. If you say at rallies that you're going to prosecute Hillary Clinton for engaging in inappropriate behavior with e-mails, and then you get elected and you say you won't, you're a liar. If you say that you're going to build a wall and that's the cornerstone of your campaign, then you get into office and you say, you're not going to do it anymore, it makes you a liar. If you say that "The New York Times" is a horrible magazine that attacks you, and then the next day you come in and smile and you chat with people, this problematic.

And we're used to politicians not being honest but not this kind of blatant changing of policy, attitude, and tone. I think it sets a very difficult -- dangerous precedent. It's going to make it very hard for the press to cover him.

COSTELLO: But, Jackie, you always hear that, that once someone is elected President, things change because you're now confronted with all of this new information, and your views do change. Is it a simple case of that?

KUCINICH: You know, a lot of this is unprecedented because a different Donald Trump apparently showed up there than the one that was at Trump Tower with media executives the day before. So, yes, he is getting new information. He's not someone that was, you know, steeped in policy going into this job. It was much more fueled by his personality and the emotions of his campaign.

So, and he said, you know, I talked to General Mattis. He said torture isn't good, so I guess it's not that great. You know, so he's talking to more people. He is learning but you know, I think this is -- you know, he started out with a very different negotiating position because he fashions himself a master negotiator. And maybe, you know, he's coming to the center. But the fact is we don't know. And that was one of the things that he was attacked on, from both Republicans and Democrats over the course of this campaign. And because he didn't really have any policy positions, it left him a very, you know, wide berth ship. And that's what we're seeing now.

COSTELLO: OK. But, Michael, Mr. Trump does seem to be reaching out to people with different points of view, for example, Nikki Haley, right? He is going to appoint her to a position and that's a good thing, right?

GRYNBAUM: Well, yes, and even the fact that Mitt Romney suddenly is now a leading candidate for Secretary of State, someone who there seems to be no love lost between them, at some points, during the campaign, is a sign that he seems to be looking for different voices in his circle. Even his conversation with President Obama in the White House, you

know, came out and said -- he told "The New York Times" yesterday, Obama, great guy. I didn't know if I'd like him. We actually had a great rapport. We've spoken on the phone two times since the meeting in the Oval Office.

I mean, talk about a whiplash inducing statement. You know, with Donald Trump, it seems like we're still kind of guessing a little bit. It's still not quite clear who the man is that's going to be taking over the executive branch in January.

COSTELLO: But, Jason, maybe that's what it takes to win an election these days? You just have to be, I don't know, very strident in your views and then once you get into office, you adjust?

JOHNSON: That's extremely problematic. And I want to point this out in particular if you're talking about what Jackie's mentioned about torture. It's one thing for a President-elect Trump to change his mind based on new information. If you want to torture and then you find out that, hey, it's not a good idea for the military, that's fine. That's what politicians are supposed to do.

[09:10:10] When you say you're going to prosecute someone because you think that they violated national security, that's in his power. He simply changed his mind. But I also think this, Carol, and I think this is really important. Donald Trump spent a lot of his campaigning demonizing members of the press, specifically Katy Tur, talking about particular newspapers, talking about particular outlets, and when he was asked by the "Times," is he going to respect the First Amendment, he gave another sort of waffling answer. This is someone who attacked "Hamilton," the play, last week.

It's very important that we hold this President accountable. What he said during his campaign and what he says now really does matter. We can't let him get away with just flip-flopping all over the place because we don't know him yet.

COSTELLO: Well, Jackie, I think "The New York Times" -- well, they did an interesting thing, right? They didn't -- they said, Donald Trump, if you're going to sit down with "The New York Times," it's not going to be off the record.

GRYNBAUM: Right.

COSTELLO: Everything's going to be on the record, right, which was different from when Donald Trump sat down with T.V. reporters. It was off the record. But that enabled Donald Trump to sort of control the message, right, Jackie?

KUCINICH: Well, I mean, the fact that they had him coming, be on the record, was what -- I mean, that's what he agreed to and that's what they did. But I wanted to mention something else that was in this interview and that was the fact that he doesn't think they're going to set up something to maybe shield him from his businesses. This is one of the parts that I found kind of disturbing, is that the fact that there really isn't anything concrete yet to show that he is not going to profit off of --

JOHNSON: Right.

KUCINICH: -- his businesses are not going to profit because he is President. We've already seen, from foreign press, reports of, you know, maybe he's been talking to some of these world leaders, you know, about his businesses, about, you know, shifting things that would help him. That is really problematic. And that is something that he --

COSTELLO: And --

KUCINICH: -- and the campaign need to clear up as soon as possible.

COSTELLO: And, Michael, specifically what Jackie is talking about is President-elect Trump said presidents don't have conflicts of interest. It doesn't apply to presidents of the United States.

GRYNBAUM: Yes, that was a striking statement, and there were some attempts in the room to clarify or to ask President-elect to actually elaborate on what exactly he meant. It didn't go that far, so I think we kind of just have to take the words verbatim.

Similarly, about the First Amendment, you know. Are you committed to the First Amendment, we asked the President-elect. He said I think you'll be happy. I think you'll be happy. You know, he leaves himself a little bit of wiggle room. He likes to be a little evasive on these answers. So I think, you know, the jury is still out.

COSTELLO: It adds to the drama, Michael.

(LAUGHTER)

COSTELLO: Jackie Kucinich, Jason Johnson, Michael Grynbaum, thanks to all of you.

Still to come, yes, we're going to talk about this. The President- elect says the Trump brand is hotter than ever, and he's not sweating questions over possible conflicts of interest. He says the law is on his side. So what's the verdict?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:17:09] COSTELLO: Democrats, and even some Republicans, are raising questions about possible conflicts of interest in the Donald Trump presidency. But the president-elect is all but brushing aside those concerns.

Trump brings an unprecedented amount of business ties to the White House. He has dealings in at least 25 countries outside the United States, ranging from beverage sales in Israel, to golf course developments in the UAE, and when asked about this during his interview with "The New York Times" Trump said, quote, "The law's totally on my side. The president can't have a conflict of interest."

And while Trump says he's going his global empire, most Americans, about 59 percent, in a new CNN/ORC poll, say that simply doesn't go far enough.

So, is Trump right? Is there a line when it comes to a president's business dealings?

I'm joined by two experts. Richard Painter is a former White House ethics lawyer, Jan Baran is an ethics attorney.

Welcome to both of you.

JAN BARAN, PARTNER, WILEY REIN LLP: Hello.

COSTELLO: Hello. Nice to have you here.

RICHARD PAINTER, FORMER WHITE HOUSE ETHICS LAWYER: Thank you very much.

COSTELLO: I'm glad to have you here. Thanks for coming in on -- during the holiday week.

Richard, I want to start with you. Is a president immune to conflict of interest?

PAINTER: No. A president can have conflict of interest, just like anybody else serving in the government. There are some conflict of interest statutes that do not apply to the president, for example the criminal conflict of interest statute that would criminalize certain official actions taken by government officials. That doesn't apply to the president.

But the emolument clause of the Constitution does, which prohibits foreign government payments and companies controlled by foreign governments from making payments to the president or any other government official. The anti-bribery statutes apply. There are a wide range of conflict of interest and anti-corruption laws that apply to the president.

COSTELLO: So, Jan, why is Mr. Trump saying this, that the conflict of interests don't apply to the president?

BARAN: Well, I think that the distinction the professor is making is that you can have a so-called conflict of interest, but it doesn't necessarily make it illegal. There is nothing that legally restricts the president from self-dealing, as long as it's not a crime of some sort like bribery or gratuities, and Richard also mentioned the Emoluments Clause.

But, at its base, there is nothing that requires a president to disengage from his businesses. There's nothing that says that he cannot continue knowing what's going on with this business.

Fundamentally, the problem that's confronting Mr. Trump is that he wants to retain public confidence in what he's going to do as president. Number one, he's got a full time job that's not going to allow him an awful lot of time to do his business matters, which is why I think he says, well, I'm getting out of managing that business.

[09:20:05] I'm going to have the kids do it.

And number two, he doesn't want to be accused of self-dealing or put his businesses and his children in a position where they are going to be subjected to ingratiation by private interests.

So, he has to put up -- he has to put some self-imposed restrictions on himself on how he's going to operate and what his relationship with the businesses are going to be.

COSTELLO: Right, because -- because some people say he really does need to do that because this sort of comment, some say, echoes Richard Nixon, because Nixon said something similar to David Frost decades ago. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DAVID FROST, JOURNALIST: In a sense you're saying is that there are certain situations -- and the Huston Plan or that part of it was one of them -- where the president can decide that it's in the best interests of the nation or something, and do something illegal?

RICHARD NIXON, FORMER PRESIDENT: Well, when the president does it that means that it is not illegal.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: OK. So just to refresh everyone's memory, Nixon was later accused of abuse of power, for those who don't remember exactly, Nixon staff broke into the Democratic national headquarters to make sure Nixon would be re-elected and then Nixon allegedly used the CIA to cover up the crime.

So, Richard, isn't it dangerous for a president to think he is free from any conflict of interest?

PAINTER: Well, yes. And that's my concern here. That President- elect Trump and his transition team staff don't want to deal with this issue.

A few moments ago, I e-mailed Kellyanne Conway and suggested that the Emolument Clause issue at least could be addressed if the president- elect were to assign over to the United States government any and all payments from foreign governments and entities controlled by foreign governments as of January 20, and implement an audit procedure to make sure that all those payments are signed over to the United States government.

At least the Emoluments Clause issue could be dealt with. There are many other conflicts of interest issues. But at least that could be dealt with in that way.

And so far, they are showing no willingness and sending the message to me that they aren't even interested in my advice because I didn't support Donald Trump for president.

Well, now he is president for all of us, all the American people. He's going to be. And he needs to comply with the Constitution at a bare minimum. And they need to recognize the problem, and address it.

And he didn't do that before the Electoral College meets, because I don't think the Electoral College can vote for someone to become president if he's going to be in violation of the Constitution on day one and hasn't assured us he's in violation.

This is just as important as your birth certificate. More important in your birth certificate or proof of age, whatever other requirements there are to become president of the United States.

COSTELLO: And, Jan, I think Richard is saying that because Trump -- Trump recently admitted that he encouraged the British politician Nigel Farage to oppose offshore wind farms that affect use of his Scottish golf course. Trump just shrugged that off when asked about it.

So, I don't know, is that the slippery slope that Richard is worried about, Jan?

BARAN: Well, I think that the Trump people are actively evaluating what can be done, what should be done, what must be done.

You know, we're sitting here basically two weeks after Mr. Trump's very surprising election and they have a full plate. The fact that they haven't made public disclosures on what they plan to do doesn't mean that they're not evaluating it, and I'm willing to give them some more time to actually see what they propose.

But in terms of, you know, what is legally required, I think that's clear that legally, Mr. Trump is not required to divest himself of these interests. I don't agree with Richard about his evaluation of the so-called Emoluments Clause.

And ultimately, the way this is set up constitutionally, is that if a president is engaging in what the Constitution calls high crimes and misdemeanors, then Congress retains the right of impeachment, which is what happened to President Nixon for his behavior, which, by the way, had nothing to do with private financial interests. It had to do with breaking in, and covering up.

So, let's not confuse all of these issues and say it's all the same problem. Step by step, and I think that's what the Trump people are doing right now.

COSTELLO: All right. I have to leave it there.

PAINTER: Where's the concern --

COSTELLO: I have to leave it there. I'm so sorry. Richard Painter, Jan Baran, thanks to both of you.

[09:25:01] Still to come in the NEWSROOM, the need for a fresh face up for debate. In days, Democrats are in for a leadership fight. We'll talk about that in just a minute.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) COSTELLO: In Chattanooga, this morning, grief, anger and prayers and a whole lot of questions after Monday's school bus crash that left five elementary school children dead. Any minute now, Governor Bill Haslam will be visiting Woodmore Elementary School. The 37 children on board that bus were all students at that school. Twelve of them are still in the hospital.

The community holding a vigil last night for the victims and their grief-stricken families. This as federal authorities look into the case. One focus of course is the driver's past.

Johnthony Walker is charged with five counts of vehicular homicide.

CNN's Nick Valencia live in Chattanooga with more.

Hi, Nick.

NICK VALENCIA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Carol.

It goes without saying that this is going to be a devastatingly sad Thanksgiving holiday for a number of families here in Chattanooga.