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Trump and Clinton's Second Debate; Debate Ratings Lower Than First Debate. Aired 9:30-10a ET

Aired October 10, 2016 - 09:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:32:02] CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: And good morning. I'm Carol Costello. Thank you so much for joining me.

One of the most talked about moments from last night's debate had nothing to do what either of the candidates said but rather how they shared the stage. You know, physically. Donald Trump standing directly, only three to five feet behind Hillary Clinton, for one entire answer. That move on Donald Trump's part went viral. One tweet, "why does he keep lurking behind her?" Another tweet, "this looks like a poster for a 1970s horror movie." And others just took it there. Check out this screen grab from "Halloween." Mrs. Clinton later, though, laughed off the close encounter.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HILLARY CLINTON (D), PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: I could tell, yes. I could.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE).

CLINTON: Well, you know, it was a very small space and I tried to give him space when he was talking to people. I would go back and, you know, lean up against my stool. But, he was very present.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: With me now is Fred Malek, the Bush/Quayle campaign manager back in '92.

Welcome back, Fred. Thanks for being with me.

FRED MALEK, FORMER BUSH/QUAYLE CAMPAIGN MANAGER 1992: A pleasure, Carol. Thank you.

COSTELLO: So, Donald -- we'll just start with the optics of this thing. Your take on where Donald Trump stood through most of the debate? He also paced a lot on stage. You could always see him kind of over Hillary Clinton's shoulder. He never sat down when she answered questions.

MALEK: Yes.

COSTELLO: Your thoughts? MALEK: Well, I think both -- both candidates kind of were a little bit

odd. I think Trump's pacing, standing behind her was a little bit off putting, frankly, and I wondered what he was doing.

At the same time, though, Hillary continued to kind of laugh and smirk every time Trump talked, like kind of, well, what is the village idiot going to say next? And I thought that was a little bit contrived and off-putting as well. So I think both of them looked a little bit -- a little bit strange on that stage.

COSTELLO: And -- and this was a town hall.

MALEK: Yes.

COSTELLO: This was supposed to be an intimate gathering where -- where voters were supposed to feel closer to the candidates. Sometimes I forgot it was a town hall, frankly.

MALEK: I did too. You know -- you know, Carol, if somebody is awoken from a coma of two years and seeing this debate, I think they would wonder, is this the best our great country has to offer? Because neither one of them really looked that great. All the focus was on mistakes, on character flaws and the like and I think our -- our person out of the coma would have said, I -- I really don't think I want either one of them. It was not -- it was not the best moment for either. But by the same token, they scored some real points.

COSTELLO: They did. And before we get there, I want to talk a little bit more about the optics because they were so very strange.

MALEK: Yes.

COSTELLO: So before the debate, the candidates did not shake hands, right?

MALEK: Yes.

COSTELLO: I think we have pictures of all of this to show our viewers.

MALEK: Yes. Yes.

COSTELLO: So they didn't shake hands before the debate, but after the debate, they did shake hands. You could see the spouses shaking hands before the debate. And they're going to get these pictures up. So I'll just ask you about the shaking of hands. Why not come out and shake one another's hand?

[09:35:01] MALEK: I can't imagine why they didn't shake hands. It's clear that they don't like each other. It's clear that there was more fisticuffs to come. But, nevertheless, even in a prize fight, when people are battering each other, they shake hands before the fight. And I kind of expected them to shake hands and I was -- noticed it and wondered why they didn't. Was it deliberate? Was it planned in advance? Did one of them just not approach the other? I don't know. They should have shaken hands in my opinion. It was nice that they did so afterwards, but, of course, they knew that families were coming up and they wanted to, I think, part on a reasonable note.

COSTELLO: OK. So we're getting more images in.

MALEK: Yes.

COSTELLO: These -- I don't know if this really shows it, but I'm going to do my best here. So, Chelsea Clinton had her arm around her mother coming into the debate, and then you could see her sitting in the VIP box with her father, with her hand on her shoulder. There's the image I'm talking about. So you'll see Chelsea Clinton get out and, there, arm around her mom, right? And --

MALEK: Carol, you know --

COSTELLO: Uh-huh.

MALEK: Carol, I've -- I've been involved with a lot of presidential nominees and candidates. I've worked very closely with -- with both Bushs. I've worked very closely with John McCain. And let me -- and Mitt Romney too. And let me tell you, these are real people. They don't -- they're not just caricatures. They're real people and they suffer from this and their families, most of all, have to bear the brunt of it because when you hear your spouse, or your father, being attacked and pilloried in any kind of -- in a way that they are, it's very humiliating and debilitating for these families. It's tough on them. And I think most of them handled themselves very, very well. And I'm glad that they mingled it afterwards and didn't show the effects of it.

COSTELLO: Yes. Just watching the Trump family sitting there, especially Melania, you know she wears this shockingly bright pink outfit as if to say, you know, I have nothing to be ashamed of. But she sat stony through the entire debate. And -- but -- but she did shake hands with bill Clinton, which I thought was -- was a fabulous move, because -- because why not?

MALEK: Sure. It's a classy thing to do. And I think it was the right thing to do. And I don't think families have an animosity toward one another. They understand the battle that they're in. But it still stings when you hear your father, your wife, your son, your husband attacked in the way that they are. Look, all of this debate was about character flaw. Very little of it was on vision and policies for the country. That was a flaw of the debate in my opinion but it also affected the families.

COSTELLO: So what should voters take away from this? Because I reached out to my Facebook followers and asked them who won.

MALEK: Yes.

COSTELLO: Most of them said Hillary Clinton. But I think many of them felt slightly ill after watching the debate.

MALEK: Well, look, that's what I said a little while ago. I mean if somebody came down from Mars or out of a coma they would say, is this the best we have to offer? This is -- it really wasn't so much a debate as it was an attack on each other. My opinion is, Hillary won the debate on points. She was so articulate and well prepared. But at the same time I think Trump won the night because he did what he had to do to deflect and defray despite the disgusting comments on these tapes and he lived to fight another day.

COSTELLO: Have you decide who you're going to vote for?

MALEK: I haven't. I focused on the governors, with the Republican Governor's Association, on the House of Representatives, through my chairmanship of the Congressional Leadership Fund, and I'm going to do everything I can to protect down ballot races.

COSTELLO: Fred Malek, thanks for joining me this morning.

Still to come in the NEWSROOM, the debate hadn't even started, but the battle had already begun. Several of Bill Clinton's accusers sitting with Donald Trump hours before the town hall showdown.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[9:42:38] COSTELLO: It was a pre-debate moment so stunning even the Clinton campaign admitted to being blindsided. Donald Trump appearing in a panel with three women who have accused Bill Clinton of sexual misconduct, and one woman whose rapist was defended by Hillary Clinton in her early years as an attorney. Two Clinton aides telling CNN, even after they planned for harsh personal attacks, they did not expect this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: These four very courageous women have asked to be here, and it was our honor to help them. I'd like to start with Paula.

PAULA JONES, BILL CLINTON ACCUSER: Well, I'm here to support Mr. Trump. I think he's going to make America great again. And I think everybody else should vote for him. And I think they should all look at the fact that he is a good person. He's not what other people have been saying he's been, like Hillary.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: Joining us now to talk about this is Sally Kohn, CNN political commentator, Hillary Clinton supporter and columnist for "The Daily Beast," and Betsy McCaughey, a former lieutenant governor of New York, Donald Trump supporters, and senior fellow at the London Center for Policy Research.

Welcome to both of you.

BETSY MCCAUGHEY, DONALD TRUMP SUPPORTER: Thank you.

SALLY KOHN, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Thank you, Carol.

COSTELLO: OK. So, Betsy, do you think that Trump's strategy won over the women that he needed, those suburban Republican educated women? MCCAUGHEY: I do. I think that creating this separate little event before the debate kept the issue of the treatment of women off center stage. Because what the polls show, the Gallup poll, the Pew poll, is that women, like men, consider the top two issues to be our stagnant economy, and the increasing threat of terrorism.

COSTELLO: Well, the first 15 minutes of the debate, though, were on Donald Trump's woman comments.

MCCAUGHEY: Well, that -- that wasn't -- that wasn't his doing. But let me just explain.

KOHN: It was his doing. He said them.

MCCAUGHEY: No. No, let me just explain, please, that he was answering a question. But Mrs. Clinton isn't running on jump-starting the economy or addressing the threats of ISIS because her party has failed on both those issues. So she has turned the debate to a debate over political correctness. That is the theme of her campaign. The speech police. She is --

COSTELLO: Political correctness?

MCCAUGHEY: Yes. Let me just finish. She has said she's going to make sure that men talk respectfully to women. That whites are taught to show more --

KOHN: (INAUDIBLE) --

MCCAUGHEY: Humility in the presence of blacks. That chubby beauty queens won't be fat shamed. That illegal immigrants will feel welcome. And that people who disagree with her will be labeled bigots, racists, homophobes, xenophobes and all those other deplorable names.

[09:45:14] COSTELLO: So -- so -- so just to get me get it straight. So you're OK with Donald Trump with all the stuff he said on the bus, because as he said last night, it's just locker room talk. Didn't mean it.

MCCAUGHEY: Let -- let me point out. He --

COSTELLO: I'm going to forcibly grope anyone.

MCCAUGHEY: He addressed that issue. It is locker room banter.

COSTELLO: But it's OK because it's -- it's not politically correct --

MCCAUGHEY: He -- wasn't OK. Excuse me. It wasn't OK. But he measured it against the really big issues we're facing, such as Christians being beheaded, or drowned in steel cages, people unable to find work because our economy is growing at a meager 1.2 percent.

COSTELLO: OK. OK, we got it.

So, Sally, your thoughts. KOHN: I -- you know, I -- I find myself a little speechless at the moment, Betsy. And that's not a common phenomenon. Look, Hillary Clinton has a plan for the economy and for creating -- not only creating jobs, but creating jobs with good wages. She has a plan for defeating ISIS notably. And this -- this stuns me. I don't know how we've gotten to this points as a country.

Donald Trump repeatedly was asked very clear, very simple questions about his strategy for how he would replace Obamacare, how he would deal with ISIS, how he would address tax issues, and he did not answer the questions. He just --

MCCAUGHEY: Well, that's not --

KOHN: Hang on, I let you talk.

MCCAUGHEY: Yes.

KOHN: He -- he just kind of vomited a word salad all over the place.

Now, that being said, I'm sorry, Hillary Clinton, this is like -- oh, yes, this is like saying that Donald Trump -- Donald Trump trying to blame Hillary Clinton for bringing up the birther issue. That is preposterous. It is untrue. And it is -- it is the definition of Orwellian. He brought it up. He brought it up again and again and again and again. The reason we're talking about the sexual assault of women and misogyny in general, as well as discrimination and prejudice and hate in this campaign, is because of Donald Trump. Because he keeps bringing it up. Because he keeps doing and saying things that are beyond the pale.

MCCAUGHEY: Well, but (INAUDIBLE) --

COSTELLO: But let's go back to -- let's go back to the core issues because women don't like how Donald Trump talks about women.

KOHN: How he treats them. Not just talks, treats.

MCCAUGHEY: (INAUDIBLE)

COSTELLO: No, no, they don't. That's why they're not on his side at the moment. Especially those suburban educated Republican women that normally go -- that normally vote Republican and are not this time around.

MCCAUGHEY: I'm going to -- well, here's the facts.

COSTELLO: And here's -- here's why there confused. Here's why they're confused. So Donald Trump appears with these three Clinton accusers, right? Paula Jones is one of them. And we played a little sound bite from her. But back in 1998, he was not complimentary of Paula Jones. In fact, he called her ugly. Let's listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Let's talk about another 52-year-old Bill Clinton. What's he need to do?

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: Well, I don't know. It's so embarrassing. And you really have to say, where does it stop? I would have done something certainly different than what they did. I mean that all started at -- Paula Jones is a loser, but the fact is that she may be responsible for bringing down a president indirectly.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: OK, so he went on to say --

MCCAUGHEY: No, the fact --

COSTELLO: He went on to say, and we'll put the full screen up, put the graphic up, Donald Trump went on to say of Clinton's accusers, "the whole group, it's truly an unattractive cast of characters, Linda Tripp, Lucianne Goldberg -- I mean this woman -- I watch her on television, just vomiting. She is so bad. The whole group -- Paula Jones, Lewinsky -- it's just really an unattractive group." And now he calls all of these women courageous.

MCCAUGHEY: Well, they are courageous.

COSTELLO: So how can -- how can he --

MCCAUGHEY: They are courageous because they have come up -- come out to confront Hillary Clinton's false claims that she is a defender of women, as does --

COSTELLO: But does Donald Trump think they're courageous or unattractive?

MCCAUGHEY: As the WikiLeaks -- as the WikiLeaks information showed on Friday, Hillary Clinton has two personas. The public personal and the private persona. Those are her own words. And she is a defender of women, only when it's about her politically.

COSTELLO: Couldn't we say that about Donald Trump?

KOHN: I'm sorry but -- but Donald Trump's message to America -- first of all, let me just start by clarifying, because it just doesn't seem to be clear to Betsy or to the media that Bill Clinton is not running for president. Just let's get that clear for starters. And second, Donald Trump's message, his marketing pitch to the American people, seems to be, don't vote for the candidate whose husband hurts women. Instead, vote for me, Donald Trump, because I hurt women.

MCCAUGHEY: That's not it.

KOHN: What the heck is happening here?

MCCAUGHEY: Take a look, all of Mrs. Clinton's paid ads are political correctness ads, pointing fingers at people she doesn't like the way they talk. Whereas, it's only (INAUDIBLE) --

KOHN: Her ads are his own words! She is quoting his own words and he says they're nasty because his words are nasty. I'm sorry, when does this stop?

MCCAUGHEY: Most Americans aren't going to elect the next president to be the speech police. They want a president who will jump-start the economy. Americans are earning less now than they did in 2007. It's not an issue of how people talk. We want a president who will get the job done. And Mrs. Clinton is running on a failed record.

[09:50:20] COSTELLO: But he -- but I -- I would agree with you except it is an issue because women object to the way he talks about women.

KOHN: And he doesn't just talk --

MCCAUGHEY: And let me point, as I did at the beginning of this panel --

KOHN: Excuse me, Betsy, he didn't just talk about it.

MCCAUGHEY: Just a moment, dear.

KOHN: He --

MCCAUGHEY: Let me point out, as I did at the beginning of this panel, that the number one and two issues for women, as well as for men, are the economy and terrorism, and Mrs. Clinton has a failed record. She represents the status quo, not change.

COSTELLO: OK. So, Sally, then why is Donald Trump losing 15 points among women?

KOHN: OK, first of all, Donald Trump -- it's not just Donald Trump's words. He bragged about forcing himself on women. He bragged about sexual assault. And, by the way, if we want to talk about accusers, there are women who have stepped forward repeatedly. There are active lawsuits to back up those claims. Not just words. Let's stop trivializing -- let's just stop trivializing it as words. We're talking about his actions and his actions aren't just offensive, they're criminal. They're criminal.

MCCAUGHEY: No. Words spoken on this bus were locker room banter. I don't find it attractive. I'm the mother of three daughters and two granddaughters. But the fact is, Donald Trump apologized and then moved on to issues --

COSTELLO: So, would the -- would the father of your children talk that way in the locker room?

MCCAUGHEY: I think many men talk that way.

KOHN: No, not a single one I know.

COSTELLO: Would the father of your children --

MCCAUGHEY: I have no idea, but I --

COSTELLO: Really? You don't know who you married?

MCCAUGHEY: Well, I haven't been married to him in many years. So the fact is --

KOHN: (INAUDIBLE) anyone talk that way.

MCCAUGHEY: Let me point out that this election should not be about the speech police and political correctness, it should --

KOHN: Then he should stop saying offensive things.

MCCAUGHEY: Well, now you could too.

KOHN: Then stop -- stop right now. Stop insulting Mexicans and stop insulting Muslims and stop insulting women and stop insulting black people. Stop it. And insulting --

MCCAUGHEY: You -- your -- and Hillary Clinton should stop insulting all the Americans she calls deplorables and unredeemables if they disagree with her.

KOHN: OK. So let's equate her one -- her one statement for which she apologized --

MCCAUGHEY: Oh, no, no --

KOHN: With the hundreds --

MCCAUGHEY: It's not one statement. Take a look at her paid ads. They're all an insult to America.

KOHN: Hundreds he -- I'm sorry, but this is (INAUDIBLE) --

MCCAUGHEY: She tells Americans that they're -- that he's systemically (ph) racist.

COSTELLO: OK, I'm going to stop it there. I'm going to stop it here.

Sally Kohn, Betsy McCaughey, thanks so much. I do appreciate the conversation this morning.

Still to come in the NEWSROOM, the candidates fight it out. So, how many tuned in? We'll talk about that next.

MCCAUGHEY: Thank you.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:5517] COSTELLO: OK, so the last debate got, what, 80 million people. What about this debate? Brian Stelter is here with the early numbers.

Good morning.

BRIAN STELTER, CNN SENIOR MEDIA CORRESPONDENT: Good morning.

This debate not as highly rated as the first one. There's two reasons why, Carol. Number one, there was a big football game. But, number two, people are getting really sick and tired of all of this -- of all this debating. As one top TV executive said to me a few minutes ago, people are repulsed by the -- by the -- by the tone, by the ugliness of this debate.

COSTELLO: Yes, because I was -- you know, I always text with a group of friends --

STELTER: Yes.

COSTELLO: Because they were having debate parties.

STELTER: Yes.

COSTELLO: And a lot of them like just tuned out and said, OK, I'm done.

STELTER: It looks like there were about 20 percent fewer viewers, which still makes this a massive television event, 60 million or 70 million viewers. Some channels, like CNN, actually grew their audience from the first debate to the second. But, overall, there was a decline, I think partly because of football, but partly because of the tone. And some people are just disgusted by this. The American people, I think, deserve better than what we saw last night.

COSTELLO: I would have to agree with you there, Brian, I just would.

Billy Bush, I find this really interesting too.

STELTER: Yes.

COSTELLO: So he was on that bus with Mr. Trump when Mr. Trump said those things about groping women.

STELTER: That's right.

COSTELLO: And Billy Bush is, what, suspended?

STELTER: Suspended. And it sounds like he won't be returning to the "Today" show. You know, he just got a big new job there --

COSTELLO: Really?

STELTER: Co-hosting an hour of the "Today" show. My sources at NBC say it's unlikely he'll get his job back. But for now he's just benched. But it's unlikely he'll return. You know, the network has to consider how viewers, especially female viewers, would feel if he were to return to the show.

COSTELLO: You're kidding? So, so many female viewers wrote in maligning Billy Bush?

STELTER: There's been so much criticism of him online, on Twitter and Facebook. Also think about how guests might feel. Celebrities they're trying to attract might not want to sit down with Billy Bush right now.

COSTELLO: Brian Stelter, many thanks.

STELTER: Thanks.

COSTELLO: Wow.

The next hour of CNN NEWSROOM after a break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:00:11] COSTELLO: And good morning. I'm Carol Costello. Thank you so much for joining me.