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Former Israeli Leader Shimon Peres Dead at 93; Trump Tries to Move Back on Message After Debate; Clinton & Trump Both Claim Debate Victory; Investigators to Report on Downing of MH17. Aired 12-1a ET

Aired September 28, 2016 - 00:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[00:00:11] JOHN VAUSE, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everybody. Thanks for being with us. I'm John Vause.

ISHA SESAY, CNN ANCHOR: And I'm Isha Sesay. Thank you for being with us also.

Now breaking news out of Israel. Shimon Peres, who served as both president and prime minister, has died at the age of 93. He was one of Israel's founding fathers and a key political figure for more than five decades.

SESAY: Peres died in Israel's Sheba Medical Center. We're being told he was surrounded by his family. He suffered a massive stroke two weeks ago.

Leaders from around the world are reacting to the news of his passing, sharing their condolences and appreciation for his leadership.

Let's bring in CNN's Oren Liebermann now, live at Sheba Medical Center. Oren -- Shimon Peres led a life of public service for over 70 years. Describe the mood there in Israel as the nation absorbs the news of his passing.

OREN LIEBERMANN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Isha and John, the commitment and the delivery in what Shimon Peres did, the ninth president of Israel did for the state of Israel is unmatched -- his career of service, his public life, what he did for the state going back to even before the founding of the state.

And that is what we're beginning to see in the condolence messages we are receiving not only from Israeli leaders, but from around the world. As we stand here in Sheba Medical Center, we're expecting a press conference not only from his son, his son-in-law who is also his personal doctor, but also from the hospital itself to shed some light on the last few hours of Shimon Peres.

According to Israel's Channel 2, he passed away at 2:00 local time. This is two weeks after he suffered a massive stroke. He has been in the hospital since then, sedated and intubated. We've been getting daily updates. His condition had been stable until, according to the hospital and according to his spokespeople, his condition deteriorated last night. So now as we wait to hear from his family and the hospital, we'll find out more about what has happened, what is happening and what will happen over the next few days. It is certain to be a busy few days.

As I mentioned, as we're waiting for this press conference to begin, we're getting messages of condolence from around the world. For example, we just got a statement from President Barack Obama who says "Shimon was the essence of Israel itself. The courage of Israel's fight for independence, the optimism he shared with his wife Sonya as they helped make the desert bloom and the perseverance that led him to serve his nation in virtually every position in government across the entire life of the state of Israel."

Messages like that are not uncommon. We've gotten messages like that from both President George W. Bush and George H.W. Bush. Tony Blair sent a similar message as has a number of Israeli leaders including, of course, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, who said "Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and his wife Sarah express deep personal sorrow for the passing of a man cherished by the nation, the former president of Israel, Shimon Peres."

He is expected to convene a cabinet meeting later in the day, a special session -- session of mourning for Shimon Peres. And that will happen all in the next few hours.

Again, most importantly, a press conference coming from his family -- this will be the first statement from his family since the passing of Shimon Peres after he suffered that stroke. People now will begin to focus on his legacy and what he meant for the state of Israel.

And that again, as I mentioned, is simply unmatched. His 70 years of service to the country -- that will be what they focus on. It is a legacy that includes every aspect of the state of Israel.

Having talked to opposition leader Isaac Herzog not that long ago, I asked him what does Shimon Peres mean to the state of Israel? He said there is no facet, no aspect of this country, of the entire state of Israel that is untouched by Shimon Peres.

That is the kind of testament to the legacy, to what Peres meant to this country, to its people. He very much carried on the legacy of peace. He was a driver, a believer and a dreamer of peace. And said it has to be pursued even when it's difficult, perhaps most importantly when it's difficult.

That will be the legacy that he brings that he has created in his work not only as a politician, but also as the President of Israel from 2007 to 2014. Even at 93 years old, he turned 93 in August he was still working on peace. He was in his office every day trying to bring Israelis and Palestinians together. That is the work he did on a daily basis.

We'll hear much more about that in the coming hours as we expect this presser to start shortly here. It's running a few minutes behind. But the activity, the buzz here at the hospital is beginning, as we expect. His family and the hospital itself to comment and to come give their statements on what has happened here over the last few hours and the last couple of weeks -- John and Isha?

SESAY: Oren, as you mentioned, Shimon Peres' legacy as a man of peace, it is worth reminding our viewers that there was something of an evolution Shimon Peres. He went from being a military man to this face of the peace movement.

LIEBERMANN: You're absolutely right there. He was a hawk. And he was a founder, not only a founding father, but also a founder of the settlement movement. He was known as a hawk.

But over time his position, his attitude towards peace, his attitude towards negotiation evolved. And he became the country's, perhaps the world's leading dove on a two-state solution, a leading believer of that and the driver for it.

[00:05:04] That happened over a very long career -- right. Again, we're talking about a career that spanned 70 years. And that is the lasting legacy he takes with him that will be reflected upon. As John mentioned earlier, who will carry on that legacy? That is one of the many questions that will need to be answered over the next few days.

It looks like they are beginning to assemble here, the press conference. It should be just a few more moments here. Again, we're expecting to hear from the family here as well as the hospital to learn more about not only what has happened and his health condition as it has deteriorated, but also from the hospital on his health condition.

We'll take a look right behind me. They are coming down the hallway here. You can see them coming behind me as they make their way towards the podium here. They'll be with us in just a few moments as they arrive and make their way toward the podium led by the hospital itself.

This will be his son, his son-in-law who is also his personal physician, as well as the hospital director here. We've been hearing from them often over the past couple of weeks after he suffered that stroke. Now we'll hear again, and we'll hear more.

SESAY: And Oren, as we await the family taking microphones, what are we hearing at this stage if anything about where and when Shimon Peres will be laid to rest? Is there an expectation of a state funeral?

LIEBERMANN: That's a complicated question because there are a lot of factors that play into it. The Sabbath, the Jewish new year, so I don't want the answer that just yet. We'll come back to that as the press conference is about to start.

(inaudible) standing in front, a spokesperson for President Peres as she does the introductions here for the speakers here. This will be first in Hebrew and then in English she is saying.

CHEMI PERES, SON OF SHIMON PERES (through translator): During 70 years of his public mission, he worked for the state diligently as the ninth president of Israel, as prime minister, as minister of defense, and in various other responsible positions. He used to say one's greatness is exactly as the course he serves. He did not have any other purpose in life other than serving the people whom he loved until his last breath.

I would ask in the name of all members of our family to thank the doctors of Sheba Medical Center who during the last two weeks fought diligently and stubbornly to save the life of our father for us. They were real angels.

We would like to wish well the members of all the families of other patients whom he met here in the ICU all day and we pray for the speedy recovery. We would like to thank all those who wished well to our father, who supported us from afar and here, also who prayed for him.

Our family, our friends, Israelis, Israeli citizens from small to big, our brothers and sisters from Diaspora, you gave a lot of love to our father, and we know how much he loved you.

And during his life and in his deeds, he actually bequested (ph) a future to us that we will continue building the state of Israel and that we will also seek peace. We had the huge privilege of being members of his family, but we feel that his loss today is the loss of the people of Israel and the pain is the pain of all of us.

[00:10:08] With your permission, I will say a couple of words in English.

Obviously -- what happened today is not just confined to the state of Israel. Here is a statement by Tony Blair, who worked with Shimon Peres for a couple (ph) of years.

He was one of the founding fathers of the state of Israel and served our people before we even had a country. He worked tirelessly for Israel from the very first day of this state to the last day.

Throughout his 70 years of public service, he was committed and devoted to Israel, serving as president, prime minister, minister of defense, and many other key positions which shaped our history.

My father used to say, and I'm quoting, "You're only as great as the cause you serve." He had no interest other than serving the people of Israel in whom he had great love. He wants full and speedy recovery.

And finally our deepest gratitude to all of you who offered support, sending words of comfort, hope, and prayers from within Israel and all ove2r the world -- young and old, heads of states and religious leaders. You enveloped our father with love, and we know how much he loved you.

On behalf of our family, I would like to thank the medical staff at the Sheba Medical Center who worked tirelessly with boundless dedication, professionalism and devotion to our father's life. We would like to send our warmest wishes to the families we met daily in the corridor of the ICU. We pray for their speedy recovery.

Our father's legacy has always been the future. "Look to tomorrow," he told us, "build the Israel future with courage and with wisdom, and always continue to strive for peace."

We were privileged to have been part of his private family, but today we sense that the entire nation of Israel and the global community mourn this great loss. We share this pain together. Thank you very much.

DR. RAFI WALDEN, SON-IN-LAW OF SHIMON PERES (through translator): Shimon Peres -- a mild heart attack. He was treated in Sheba. And afterwards, he immediately went back to his regular activities in Peres Center for Peace and Innovation, including trips abroad to South Africa, Canada, a meeting with the Pope, and et cetera, et cetera.

During his meetings all over the world, we were always amazed in his last years to see the greatest leaders of the world standing before him as disciples and wanting to hear his insights and ideas about what was going on in the world.

About an hour ago, my wife, Shimon Peres' daughter got a call from President Obama who shared with us his feelings, his admiration for Shimon Peres and his condolences to the family.

Three weeks ago, I accompanied Shimon Peres to an important international conference in Italy where the schedules was very tight. He had a lot of meetings with intellectuals, with economists, with media people.

[00:14:58] And at the end of the conference, he gave a speech -- a very impressive speech in the morning of his (inaudible) -- he actually gave a one and a half hour speech without looking at any written notes. He spoke with the leaders of economy how to bring Israel to the innovation.

And we believe that he had a lot of things to do and many people all over the world would be able to enjoy his contribution. His last contribution immediately after his death was to give his cornea for transplantation.

Actually, his life was cut short when he was very worried about the direction of peace. But his legacy will stay with us forever.

And now I'll say a couple words in English.

Shimon Peres left us with odd suffering. The wonderful team at the Sheba Medical Center fought for his life with all their might while ensuring he did not experience pain and protecting his dignity. Until the day of the stroke, he was fully fit.

Ten months ago, he suffered a minor heart attack, treated him at Sheba Medical Center and his recovery was astounding. He returned to full activity at the Peres Center for Peace and Innovation, even trips to South Africa, Canada, meeting with the Pope and many others.

During his meetings across the world, we were amazed time and again, including the past years, to see world leaders standing before him like students before the rabbi, eager to hear his wisdom. We were very moved just an hour ago to have a long conversation with President Obama who talked to my wife Zvia, Shimon's daughter, expressing his deep concern and his great admiration for Shimon Peres and his condolences to the family.

Three weeks ago, I travelled with him to an international conference in Italy where he held meeting with statesmen, spiritual leaders and business leaders and gave numerous interviews. The speech he delivered was brilliantly received.

On the morning of the stroke, he delivered an hour-long speech, as usual, without notes before business and high-tech leaders about his favorite topic -- innovation. We all believed that so much more still awaited him, that Israel and the world would continue to benefit from his contributions.

His life ended abruptly while he was still working on his great patient, strengthening the country and striving for peace. His legacy will remain with us always. Thank you.

YITZHAK KREISS, DIRECTOR, SHEBA MEDICAL CENTER: We again saw his special strength. The medical teams here in Sheba Medical Center did everything possible to provide him with the most advanced care in accordance with his condition. Our family of our hospital today is Shimon Peres and other members of the family for one brief moment were an integral part of our family. I would like today to give you my condolences as the head of the hospital and officer in the Israeli army, but first and foremost as a citizen of Israel with (inaudible) was one of the founders.

Mr. Peres, rest in peace.

[00:20:11] During the last two weeks, we had the honor of being part of Mr. Peres' last chapter of his life's journey. Along this time, we have witnessed once again his special strength and endurance. The Sheba Medical Center staff did everything they could with great dedication and devotion to give Mr. Peres the most advanced and quality medical care in accordance to his condition.

The Sheba family bows its head today in honor of this unique person. And all your precious and noble family, I wish to express my deep grief. And so, as the director general of this hospital, as an IDF officer, but first and most -- first and foremost, as the citizen of the state of Israel of which Shimon Peres is one of the founding fathers.

Mr. Peres, may you rest in peace. Thank you.

SESAY: All right. We've just been listening to family members of Shimon Peres -- Chemi Peres his son; and Professor Rafi Walden his son-in-law and personal physician; and the last speaker there was Professor Yitzhak Kreiss, the hospital director of Sheba Medical Center.

Our Oren Liebermann is there at Sheba Medical Center. Oren -- quite clearly the family stressing the passing of Shimon Peres is a loss not just for their own family, but for the entire state of Israel.

LIEBERMANN: And that is a loss that is felt worldwide -- again, for his family, for the state of Israel, for the prospect of peace in general and for the commitment to peace. He meant so much to all of those.

Each speaker there -- Chemi Peres, Yitzhak Kreiss, and his son-in-law, his personal doctor Rafi Walden talking about a slightly different aspect of what the last two weeks were like.

His son Chemi Peres said, quote, "He had no other purpose other than to serve the state of Israel." He talked about what he meant to the state of Israel over the past 70 years. He also gave a heartfelt thank you to the doctors, to the country, and to the world for all the well wishes that have poured in over the last two weeks -- some very difficult hours, some very difficult days for the family of Shimon Peres.

His son-in-law, his personal doctor Rafi Walden talked about the day he had his stroke, which was two weeks ago. He said he gave an hour- speech that morning. He even recorded a Facebook video. He very much had energy.

He was a busy man. He kept working on what he believed in. He kept working on peace and bringing two sides together and working on the state of Israel up until the very end, up until he could no longer work when he suffered that stroke. He was very busy on that day -- his commitment to the state of Israel absolutely complete in every way.

And then the doctor, the director of the hospital here Yitzhak Kreiss, talking about the work and their work over the last two weeks doing everything they could with some of the most advanced medical technology they have here to try to save Shimon Peres. But that stroke suffered two weeks ago simply too much.

We're learning just a little bit more about what will happen. There will be a cabinet meeting and then shortly after that a minister's meeting where they will decide how the official process will go from here leading up to the funeral of Shimon Peres. Again, we don't have a specific date on that yet -- John and Isha.

SESAY: And Oren, as we talk about the loss of a founding father, Shimon Peres one of the last of the founding fathers of the state of Israel -- what does it mean for the country that he has passed away at this point in time?

LIEBERMANN: Well, he has such a powerful legacy. They mentioned that word a lot -- legacy and peace. How much he meant to the family is without question. It was his son here, his son-in-law as well as the hospital director. And these were very heartfelt statements even from the hospital director expressing their deepest condolences at the passing of Shimon Peres.

And those are statements we've heard not only from Israelis here, from locals here but also from world leaders, also talking about how much they'll have to do and how deep the work is and how deep the commitment is to carry on his legacy and what he was working on -- working on a peace process, working on bringing Israelis and Palestinians together.

But that wasn't all he did. He worked on building Israel in terms of science, in terms of agriculture. He was all of that.

[00:24:56] I had spoken just a few months ago with the opposition leader Isaac Herzog and I asked him what does Peres mean to Israel. And he said there is no facet, no aspect of this country that he hasn't touched. A powerful testament to how much he meant to the country.

Again, we're getting statements pouring in from all over. Let me read a statement we got a short while ago -- this statement coming from Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu. He says "Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and his wife Sarah express deep personal sorrow for the passing of a man cherished by the nation, the former president of Israel Shimon Peres."

President Barack Obama giving his own statement. He said, "Shimon was the essence of Israel himself. The courage of Israel's fight for independence, the optimism he shared with his wife Sonya as they helped make the desert bloom and the perseverance that led him to serve his nation in virtually ever position in government across the entire life of the state of Israel."

We've also heard from other presidents. We've heard from Tony Blair. So these are just beginning to pour in as the world wakes up on this day to the passing of Shimon Peres. The Jewish new year just a few days way now -- it will be the first new year since the founding of the state of Israel that Israel has to go through without Shimon Peres, without his vision and his wisdom -- Isha.

SESAY: Oren Liebermann there at the Sheba Medical Center. We appreciate it.

Of course we'll check back in with you shortly as we continue to take stock of the reaction coming in to us of the passing of Shimon Peres. Oren -- thank you so much. We'll check back in with shortly. Thank you.

(AUDIO GAP)

VAUSE: -- the body should be buried as soon as possible. But in circumstances like this it's often delayed because world leaders will need to be notified.

SESAY: Indeed.

VAUSE: Arrangements, security put in place because this will be a rather large funeral, you would imagine, with many heads of state who will be attending this. As we get those details we'll let you know.

And of course a lot more on the death of Shimon Peres at age 93. You're watching CNN. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[00:30:00] ANNOUNCER: This is CNN "Breaking News."

VAUSE: Welcome back, everybody. If you're just joining us, there is breaking news out of Israel. The former president and former prime minister Shimon Peres has died, aged 93. He suffered a massive stroke two weeks ago, had been in hospital ever since.

SESAY: Yes. He shared a Nobel Peace Prize in 1994 for helping to force the Oslo Accords, a peace deal between the Israelis and Palestinians.

U.S. President Barack Obama said in a statement, "A light has gone out, but the hope Peres gave us will burn forever."

VAUSE: Aaron David Miller served as a senior U.S. State Department adviser for Arab-Israeli negotiations. He's now with the Woodrow Wilson Center and he is with us.

Aaron, you knew Shimon Peres. You dealt with the man. What do you think his legacy will be, not just for Israel, but beyond? And in particular, where does the Oslo Peace Accord fit in all that?

AARON DAVID MILLER, SENIOR U.S. STATE DEPARTMENT ADVISER FOR ARAB- ISRAELI NEGOTIATIONS: Well, Oslo remained as his most controversial legacy. Polls in Israel indicate that large numbers of Israelis think that Oslo was a failure. And filled with contradictions and anomalies.

And given the state of the Israeli-Palestinian negotiations or the absence of negotiations, I think it's probably one of Peres' bitterest aspirations never fulfilled.

He desperately, I think, wanted to put his stamp, his mark and largely for the good of the Israeli people, find a way to deal with the most complicated of all of Israel's relationships. After all, Begin was responsible for the Egyptian-Israeli peace treaty, where Rabin largely is the architect of the Israeli-Jordanian treaty and Peres would have loved to have been remembered for Oslo.

And I think unless there is some fundamental transformation in the nature of the Israeli-Palestinian relationship that builds on the progress that Shimon Peres with Rabin's support managed to produce, I think there will always be a controversial legacy.

You know, Peres I would put literally, because of the enormous amount of attention that Peres' passing is receiving. It's an unmistakable signal that the region, the Israelis, the international community hungers, craves a kind of larger than life leadership.

Men and women of principle, of pragmatism, of courage. And even though Peres never got to a position of power, he was prime minister. But he was never elected directly through popular mandate. He could never play the role that he really wanted to play. That's one of the anomalies of his career. And yet he was a central and seminal part of the Israeli state building enterprise and war-making and peacemaking, defense and security.

Perhaps no other leader who never got to be prime minister played such a seminal role. In a way, I don't want to compare him to Alexander Hamilton or Benjamin Franklin.

Franklin never aspired to the presidency. And Hamilton, I think, well, he couldn't have been president. But these were men who also contributed to the nature of their enterprise.

And in Hamilton's case never aspired to the presidency. Peres desperately wanted it. And I think in the wake of Rabin's assassination, had he not -- had he not waited and called for re- elections, building on the legacy of a murdered prime minister whom he had befriended and the two had patched up their differences by then, it may well have been that instead of Benjamin Netanyahu elected prime minister in the summer -- or spring and summer of '96, it would have been Shimon Peres.

So I think history is cruel, and it plays -- it has many different highways and bi-ways. And Peres traveled on many of them.

VAUSE: But I just want to say, you know -- you say he was never elected. He always inherited the office, be it prime minister or he was appointed president by the Knesset.

He never got the love and the adoration from the Israeli public that has many have observed, that he really deeply wanted. He did sort of get that towards the end of his career when he assumed this role of president and really transformed the office. Took it over after a scandal.

But there was a very different Peres that was seen around the world. In particular, he had very unique relationships with American presidents. I remember seeing him around Bill Clinton at one point. And he was giddy when he was around Bill Clinton. I mean, they did have a very unique relationship.

MILLER: They did. Only surpassed and exceeded frankly by Rabin's relationship with Bill Clinton. But, yes, Peres and the president fought together. They were both forward looking progressives. They both had terrific senses of humor. And that's the other thing about Shimon Peres.

[00:35:00] He was so smart and witty and could reduce the most complex formula or come up with the greatest one-liners.

I think I had mentioned earlier that in the mid-'90s upon meeting the foreign prime minister of Iceland, he turned to her and said it's an honor that a member of the chosen people has an opportunity to try and meet a member of the frozen people. This was Shimon Peres.

And in many respects, he was easy to be around and fun to be around. And I think that's one of the reasons that Bill Clinton appreciated him.

VAUSE: You know, he once said to the Palestinians, they were Israel's closest neighbors and might become their closest friends.

And that was many years ago. And you touched on this before. Right now those kind of words are not coming from Israeli leadership. And it seems unlikely to come from anyone in leadership in Israel for a long time.

MILLER: I would think, unless leaders on both sides, Israeli and Palestinians are willing to make the kinds of critically important, excruciatingly painful choices on core issues like border security, Jerusalem refugees.

It seems to me end of claims, end of conflict. It seems to me highly unlikely that you're going to be able to build a process from the bottom up.

Peres understood the double-edged sword of proximity. And, you know, he would have quoted Ben Franklin, so I'll quote him. You know, Franklin said that "Proximity breeds contempt in children."

And Peres understood that unless the status quo which got Israelis and Palestinians lives, futures linked together could somehow be separated through a process of negotiation with mutual commitment and understanding, presumably creation of a Palestinian state alongside of, not instead of, alongside the state of Israel living in peace and security. That the proximity problem meters separating these two peoples would forever doom and erode the chances of any sort of mutual respect and accommodation between them. He understood that. And I think, I interviewed him on the occasion of his 90th birthday three years ago.

Even then with the peace process creeping along, before the John Kerry effort, Peres reminded me not only of the desirability but of the feasibility of peace. He actually believed that the forces of history would ultimately re-down to the advantage of those who thought in progressive and forward looking terms.

History may yet prove him right, John. But the road to that objective is going to be a cruel, violent and unforgiving one.

VAUSE: But yet again, he defended Israel's actions during the Gaza war. So this was a man who wasn't, you know, 100 percent peacenik. He was a pragmatist as well.

Aaron, thank you so much for being with us. I think the quote of the night, "Proximity breeds contempt in children."

Thank you for sharing that with us. We appreciate it.

MILLER: All right, John. Always a pleasure.

VAUSE: Thank you, sir.

SESAY: He really was quite remarkable when you put his career in the span of Israel's history.

VAUSE: I remember talking to Shimon Peres years ago. This is when the Google machine just started. And Peres has said, this is the end of all stored knowledge. It used to be at a time when people had to remember facts and they would have to remember figures and maps. Now we don't need that. Now it's all about understanding that knowledge. And he was like this will transform the world.

SESAY: He was progressive.

VAUSE: Exactly. And this is, you know, 16 years ago.

SESAY: Yes, absolutely. Well, we will have much more on the global reaction to the passing of Shimon Peres. But time for a quick break. And we're also going to be talking politics.

Millions of people watched this. Coming up, what the U.S. presidential candidates are saying about Monday night's debate. Do stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(WEATHER REPORT)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[00:42:00] VAUSE: Welcome back, everybody. An update on our breaking news. The death of former Israeli prime minister and President Shimon Peres, aged 93.

SESAY: Peres suffered a massive stroke two weeks ago and had been hospitalized at Sheba Medical Center ever since. The Israeli government will convene a special session in the next few hours to mourn Peres's death. Funeral arrangements have yet to be announced.

VAUSE: Peres was one of Israel's founding fathers. He had been in politics for more than 60 years. He served as president for seven years, ending in 2014.

And condolences are now coming in from leaders around the world.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SESAY: Time to talk race for the White House. Well, after receiving mixed debate reviews, Donald Trump is trying to move back on message. The U.S. Republican presidential candidate told thousands of supporters in Florida that his opponent Hillary Clinton is stuck in the past while he represents change.

VAUSE: He is also claiming a debate win, and he is pointing to those really reliable unscientific and online polls.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, U.S. REPUBLICAN PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: Last night was very exciting, and almost every single poll had us winning the debate against crooked Hillary Clinton. Big league. Big league.

(END VIDEO CLIP) SESAY: Well, joining us now Democratic strategist Dave Jacobson and Republican consultant John Thomas.

Guys, so good to have you with us.

So, John, to start with you, Trump pointing to these unscientific online polls I guess. If you desperately need a win when that's your message, winning, you'll take anything?

JOHN THOMAS, REPUBLICAN CONSULTANT: Well, it's not just that they're unscientific. Look, CNN's poll last night wasn't exactly partisan. The likely turnout model wasn't fair either.

What the online polls do tell us, they don't tell us exactly who won the debate. But it is a measure of intensity of support and enthusiasm. Trump supporters turned out on those online polls to vote for him. And we've seen consistently that Trump supporters are just more enthusiastic. And that may matter with likely voter turnout in November.

SESAY: Dave?

DAVE JACOBSON, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Look, I think the challenges like Donald Trump last night, you're right. Like Trump supporters are overwhelmingly enthusiastic about him.

But the problem is those undecided voters aren't. And he was talking, he was throwing out red meat talking points to his supporters. It's why we've seen him at this 42, 44 percent ceiling.

Last night was a real opportunity for him to sort of, you know, open up the floodgates and really try to appeal to those undecided, you know, white, college educated women, suburban voters in some of these key swing states -- Ohio, Pennsylvania. He didn't accomplish that last night. We saw that in scores of focus groups and other polls.

VAUSE: That poll was magnificent, by the way. Incredibly reliable.

THOMAS: I think David Chalian gave about ten disclaimers before he went into it.

SESAY: But you can't compare our poll, too, though.

THOMAS: Absolutely. Absolutely. But Hillary also has a problem with turnout and enthusiasm. She was pandering to millennial voters last night, talking about free tuition this and free tuition that. That's because she needs Millennials to turn out and vote for her.

[00:45:10] SESAY: I think they're all significant when it came down to pandering (INAUDIBLE)

(CROSSTALK)

VAUSE: One of the big stories which came out of the debate and this was such a setup by the Democrats, by Clinton, the accusation said Donald Trump referred to Alicia Machado, a former Miss Universe, he called her "Miss Piggy," "Miss House Cleaning," because she was from Venezuela and that she gained weight.

What was astonishing, though, is that this was a complete setup and Trump seemed to double down, making no apologies for pressuring Machado to lose weight.

This is what he said on breakfast television.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP (via telephone): I know that person. That person was a Miss Universe person. And she was the worst we ever had. The worst. The absolute worst. She was impossible. And she was a Miss Universe contestant and ultimately a winner who they had a tremendously difficult time with as Miss Universe.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I do not know that story.

TRUMP: She was the winner. And, you know, she gained a massive amount of weight. And it was a real problem. We had a real problem.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VAUSE: Way to keep the story in the headlines. I mean, why not just say -- say nothing. Just move on.

THOMAS: It's tricky. Look. It's a beauty pageant.

SESAY: Did you just say it's tricky?

THOMAS: Well, it is tricky. It is a beauty pageant.

(CROSSTALK)

No, Donald Trump feels the need to weigh in. When he is asked a question, he wants to answer the question in full. He should have stopped while he was ahead.

JACOBSON: Guys, guys, this is called Donald Trump being politically incorrect. I mean, that's the cold, hard reality. But, look, I think it underscores the fact that he is a chauvinistic pig, period.

And the challenge is like he doesn't understand in order to win the White House, you got to appeal to women. They make up the majority of the electorate in 2012. They were 53 percent of those voters who turned out.

And so, like, in order for him to make up the gap, he's got to send a compelling message to those folks. And this is the kind of messaging that's going to turn them off.

SESAY: It's also a reminder when he doubles down like this that Kellyanne Conway still has a hell of a lot of work to do.

THOMAS: Yes.

VAUSE: (INAUDIBLE) SESAY: Yes.

THOMAS: Kellyanne is an expert in polling women. But he's got work to do. We'll see. We got two more debates to fix it, I guess.

VAUSE: OK. Well, Trump never denied, he never confirmed that he actually, you know, called Ms. Machado Miss Piggy or Miss Housekeeping. But she told us that he did.

Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ALICIA MACHADO, FORMER MISS UNIVERSE: Yes, all the time. And I share a lot of time with him in the office, in the events. Maybe now, maybe now he remember me. But I think he didn't remember me.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VAUSE: I bet he remembers her now.

I mean, we should point out here, though, that Ms. Machado is actually, you know, a supporter for Hillary Clinton.

SESAY: Yes, she is.

VAUSE: She was on the Clinton campaign call. She has appeared on a Clinton campaign video. But, John, does that matter at the end of the day?

THOMAS: It hurts. That hurts a lot.

VAUSE: But the fact that she is part of the campaign, does that matter?

THOMAS: I think it starts to become noise. I mean, the fact is when she appears on news shows, she looks credible. She sounds articulate. And it fits into a stereotype that the Clinton campaign has portrayed Donald Trump as. So, no, it will be effective.

SESAY: And Dave, to you -- for you, how does the Clinton campaign build on this moment going forward?

JACOBSON: Look, I think the Clinton campaign understands on a very fundamental level that they need to make Donald Trump come off as being unhinged. And the way to do that is have him attack real Americans.

We saw that with Judge Curiel. We saw that with the Khan Family, the gold star family at the DNC convention. They know that if they injected someone, that Donald Trump perhaps had some conflict with or some issue with in the past, that he would go on a tangent and talk about that person, getting him off message, making him undisciplined and that's precisely what this strategy is.

VAUSE: He's going to have to adjust to the next debate and that's always hard.

OK, we had to cut it a little bit short because of the breaking news. But we'll talk to you, guys, next hour.

SESAY: Yes, thank you.

VAUSE: Thank you.

SESAY: All right. Now Russia is making new claims about Ukraine and its possible role in the downing of flight MH17 back in 2014. Stay with us.

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[00:53:00] SESAY: Welcome back, everyone. Condolences are pouring in from around the world for the late Israeli prime minister and President Shimon Peres. He died early Wednesday at age 93.

VAUSE: Peres suffered a massive stroke two weeks ago. He had been in hospital ever since. He was the face of Israeli politics, spending more than 60 years in public office.

He retired in 2014 after serving as president for seven years.

SESAY: To some other news now.

Russia says if Malaysia Airlines flight 17 was shot down, Ukrainian forces are the ones who did it. And the Russian say there is radar data to prove it.

VAUSE: The plane went down in July 2014 over Eastern Ukraine killing 298 people. Ukraine has not responded to Russia's allegations. Dutch investigators will release their findings on the crash in the coming hours.

SESAY: Well, let's bring in CNN Safety Analyst David Soucie for his perspective.

David, always good to speak to you. An air accident inquiry by the Dutch safety board concluded back in October 2015 that MH17 was shot down by an anti-aircraft missile.

What are your expectations for this Dutch-led joint investigation team report?

DAVID SOUCIE, CNN SAFETY ANALYST: Well, I think the important thing to note on this is that we've got the Russians pointing at the Ukrainians. The Ukrainians pointing at the Russians. Again, it's confusing. But with this report, what we're seeing now is that they have proof, the Russians have come forward, the defense ministry has come forward and said we have proof that that missile was launched from non-controlled rebel forces. In other words, from an area within Ukraine that Russia was not responsible for.

So if that does prove to be the fact, then Ukraine is going to -- the Ukrainians are going to have a lot to answer for in this accident. SESAY: As you go through this report, what will you specifically be looking out for?

SOUCIE: In this report, what is important is the radar data that has been submitted just recently by the Russian, which is a little suspect on my part. This should have been released to the Dutch joint investigation team much earlier than now.

[00:55:00] The timing and when they're reporting, it is questionable. But the first thing that you're looking at there is within the Ukrainian air control area, was there a launch, a missile launch recorded? And if it was, why was it not released by the Ukrainians if they were trying to hide it or not?

So that becomes more than just an accident investigation. Now it's a criminal investigation. And more importantly, a military defense type of investigation, which could have serious impacts on their ability to negotiate between themselves, between the Russians and Ukrainians.

SESAY: David, some are wondering whether there will ever be definitive answers in this investigation, or whether MH17 will sadly become another Lockerbie case that continues to divide people.

How do you see it?

SOUCIE: I think it will continue to divide, even the -- as I said, the questionable release time of this information makes it -- is it -- was it created? Is it factual? Is it not?

What it really comes back to is if you recall, this was July 17th of 2014. And President Putin had not released that area. In other words, had not controlled the area. So the investigation was hampered from the beginning. There was no way to get people out there. We looked at the satellite images. I looked at the satellite images almost immediately following the accident.

And you could see that there are areas where there was debris from the aircraft, but no one had been out there to investigate simply because it was still in a war area. So without that critical time right after an accident when you have to gather the information about what happened, I think you're right.

I think this is something that will go down much like Lockerbie with questions and difficulty in trying to let the families understand what has happened to their loved ones for almost indefinitely.

SESAY: Yes. Those poor families.

David Soucie, we appreciate you joining us with your perspective. Thank you so much as always.

SOUCIE: Thanks for having me.

VAUSE: OK. We'll have a lot more at the top of the hour. In the meantime, you're watching CNN NEWSROOM live from Los Angeles. I'm John Vause. SESAY: And I'm Isha Sesay. Stay with us. Much more of our breaking news right after this.

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