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LEGAL VIEW WITH ASHLEIGH BANFIELD

Dallas Shootings Investigation; Race and Policing Examined. Aired 12:30-1p ET

Aired July 8, 2016 - 12:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[12:33:51] DAVID BROWN, CHIEF DALLAS POLICE: We don't feel much support most days. Let's not make today most days. Please, we need your support. To be able to protect you from men like these who carried out this tragic, tragic event.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: Men like Micah Johnson, the murderer identified. That was Dallas Police Chief David Brown.

So many developments in the past few minutes, we know his name, the man who carried out that massive assault. We've heard from his neighbors and people that know him that he has a military background and at least spent some time serving in the Army Reserve. That's him. But what about what he stood for and how we fight people like that.

Joining me now Cedric Alexander, our law enforcement analyst here at CNN and author of "The New Guardians: Policing in America's Communities for The 21st Century."

Cedric, thank you for being with me and I'm sorry that it's under this circumstances you just lost a lot of your fellow colleagues and for that, we mourn with you as we have mourned with all those families who have lost their loved ones in police-involved shootings. And they all seemed to come together last night.

[12:35:16] I wanted to ask you specifically Cedric about a tactic that was used last night when this murderer would not stop killing, would not negotiate and was so ruthlessly dangerous. The police did something different. Have a listen to the chief explain it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: We saw no other option but to use our bomb robot and place a device on its extension for it to detonate where the suspect was. Other options would have exposed our officers to great danger. The suspect is deceased as a result of detonating the bomb.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Cedric Alexander, my jaw dropped. They effectively blew him up. I have never heard of it before but you're the expert. Has this happened before and will this be the new normal?

CEDRIC ALEXANDER, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Well, I certainly don't know any reports whether that ever happened before. But let me say this first about Chief Brown. He is a true professional, he is a leader, he's led that department over the years. I've been acquainted with him over the last several years, especially during my time when I was in Dallas there with the feds.

But, you know, that was a very unique and unusual situation. You're talking about a murderer, a gunman who killed five police officers, wounded seven along with civilians and traumatized an entire community there in Dallas and traumatized this country as well. It had been reported that he may have had IEDs along with high-powered weaponry.

They had no other choice. They took with the measures they felt they needed to take in order to have a tactical advantage. And it turned out the way that it did was unfortunate. But he sat that up for himself, the murder would did. And unfortunately, that's the way it ended.

Now, in terms of the tactic, we do what we have to do in order to save lives. And those officers going into that building last night at El Centro Community College, every step they took, they did not know whether an IED was going to explode right in front of them and took out their whole squad.

So, them quite sure in their planning and their efforts, they had to do what they needed to do in order to win that fight. And we won that fight. Not only did they win it, we all won it as a nation. And we're going to recover from this over time.

BANFIELD: Let me -- God, I hope so as well as the rest of the nation as well. I do want to ask you about some of the details that we've learned from our Barbara Starr reporting at the Pentagon, that this mass murder, because that's what he was, a mass murderer, he have up to the count had he perhaps been more precise. But that he trained in the Army Reserve as a carpentry-masonry specialist.

Unclear whether he got a lot more advanced training but he would have probably had some kind of weapons, basic weapons and firearms training. He is in a military that's for sure. He apparently was still in the Reserve.

All the indications from our Barbara Starr is that he was a junior enlisted, not an officer. But that certainly speaks to the reporting as witnesses were watching him exact his reign of horrible, you know, murder that he was well-trained. He knew what he was doing. He could manipulate that weapon that he had. And that is terrifying for a bunch of your fellow officers, many of them only armed with side arms.

ALEXANDER: Absolutely, but that's the threat that they live up under. Look, during the initial attack, he had a long rifle. He was shooting two to three rounds that have a multi velocity 3,200 feet per second. And they do extreme damage.

Those officers that were the first responders went in with side arms, 40 caliber, 9 millimeter weapons. They did had not nowhere near had the fire power that he had. But they got in. They backed him into a corner. They rescued their comrades to get them to safety. They rescued and got innocent citizens and protesters out of the way.

So, what you saw was a demonstration of sheer courage on behalf of those officers there in Dallas, the same thing we saw a few weeks ago with police officers in Orlando. So, even though we are in this very challenging and difficult time, Ashleigh, between police and community relationships. Miss Santora (ph) touched my heart a few moments ago as your guest when she stated that night, last night, those officers were there for us and we're going to be there for them.

That is a profound statement at a very critical time in America's history as we try to advance public safety in this country.

[12:40:04] BANFIELD: Let me tell you, that sat with me as well when she said that she and her children will be at their funerals.

ALEXANDER: That's right, that's right.

BANFIELD: You know, I needed an extra breath.

Cedric Alexander, sir, thank you again and our hearts go out for you for having just lost, you know, five colleagues. I know that it's really hard in your community. So thank you for taking the time to help us work through it.

ALEXANDER: Thank you very much Ashleigh.

BANFIELD: Cedric Alexander, joining us live.

And coming up next, what can Dallas do to bring the police and the community together that they have already been doing?

By so many accounts, that town was getting it right. What about other cities, what do they have to do to avoid becoming the next Dallas? Some answers, some voices, voices of reason that you need to hear coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:45:20] BANFIELD: The police massacre in Dallas all started at the end of what was a peaceful protest against police shootings in Minnesota and Louisiana this week. Let's have a look at this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(NOISE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh my God.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh my God. There's people laying on the ground. I hope they're just ...

(OFF-MIC)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Somebody is really armed in the team.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh my God.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is not one person with a ...

This is a person ...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, my God. It can't be stopped.

Oh my God. Oh my God.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hands up.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What happened?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: An officer was shot.

UNIDETIFIED MALE: OK.

UNIDETIFIED MALE: OK, what was that?

(OFF-MIC)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There are the others in the park.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK all right.

(OFF-MIC)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All of the sudden, I saw and heard six to eight shots. It looked like two officers went down. I didn't have time to get a good look. I ran back. And I was screaming, run, run, run, active shooter, active shooter.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I see police officers, you know, also running for their life. I see some of them with masks. I see some with the S.W.A.T. team and I see some with the shield. I see some grabbing their arms, huge guns that I've never seen before. I saw like a hummer truck like rolling through. And at that point, I thought to myself, this is real. Like this isn't a game.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Everybody move back. Move back, get back. Let's go.

Let's go, get back, back.

Let's go, let's go, let's go.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[12:50:25] BANFIELD: This just puts you right in the middle of the action last night as it played out. Here's what you wouldn't have heard if you were on those streets, the audio of the police dispatch, what they were hearing. And through their dispatch, you can hear absolute panic and terror from the police as they find themselves under attack.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Assist officer. Shots fired, code 3 got the radio, officer down.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So we got a guy with a long riffle. We don't know where the hell he's at.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Parking garage.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Slow down. He's in the damn building right there. I don't know where he's heading. He's in that building. We're hearing shots from that building.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We've got to get (inaudible) right now, 169 get them here.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're on our way.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We believe he's across the road in the El Centro College building.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Looks like it's inside the El Centro Building, inside the El Centro Building.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Officer down is not something you want to hear when you are one of those officers. And what we're about to show you next is very disturbing, it's upsetting and it's graphic.

So, fair warning. You're about to see one of the police officers that they heard on that dispatch as he's actually being shot to death and I do want to stress this warning for you. This is horrific video.

Ismael Dejesus was in his hotel room when he started hearing that gun fire popping sound. He went to the balcony to see what was going on. And this is what he recorded.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ISMAEL DEJESUS: Guys.

Right there, man.

Oh, my God. My god, what is going on?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: In the end, five officers were killed. Seven others were shot and wounded. Two civilians shot and wounded. I think it's fair to say that this has ended a week of profound grief and heartbreaking loss. Those are the words spoken by the Attorney General, Loretta Lynch, just moments ago, in fact.

And I want to talk about this with two people who have to talk about these things for a living, even when it isn't funny, and yet that is their living.

We're joined by actor and comedian Donnell Rawlings. He was also a police officer. He was also in the military. He's one of our veterans. And W. Kamau Bell, he's a comedian, host of CNN's United Shades of America.

I wanted to speak with you both because the laughter is gone for so many of us. After this week, after all of the horrifying news that we have been covering, how do you get it back? How do you return to normalcy especially now that all of the details we've been getting.

And Kamau, I'll begin with you.

W. KAMAU BELL, CNN HOST, "UNITED SHADES OF AMERICA": I mean, you know, I don't know that there is a normalcy. You know, we say -- like I heard you say that this has been a bad week but we don't know that this is over. You know, the black community is in a -- been on a crisis about policing in this country for a long time. And I feel sorry for all those officers who were killed and I, you know, they got the guy who did it I guess. But it's -- we're in the middle of this. This is not something that ends now. I mean and I think that, you know, people say I'm a comedian but I'm a person first and I'm a dad too. And you know, those things weigh far more, heavily on my mind right now than being a comedian.

BANFIELD: So now, the message that was so peacefully being promulgated last night on the streets of Dallas were that black lives matter. And it was in response to these two shootings just this week of two black men who were shot by police officers as the investigations are very early. But it was a peaceful message and it was being done exactly as we want it to be done. It's exactly how all of the leaders were calling for it to be done and yet is the message damaged because of the carnage.

DONNELL RAWLINGS, ACTOR, COMEDIAN: I don't think the message is damaged. With any situation, you have people that have -- you have people that have irrational thoughts. You know, the shooter in Dallas incident, he doesn't represent black lives matter but, you know, if you look at it and be naive about the situation, he represents an underlying frustration in a community where you have situations where cops are taking people lives.

[12:55:09] And some of this situation with cops encounter like it's justifiable but at certain situations like this, no explanation for it. And we are living in a world where I think that cops should be held accountable for the actions that they -- the action they take.

My heart goes out to the family of police officers they left lost their lives, you know, protecting the honor of civilians. But police officers have to be accountable for their actions. And just because we have a shootout that isn't give you the blue print to survive their and recklessly murder people with no explanation.

BANFIELD: Right.

RAWLINGS: And this situation ... BANFIELD: But pre-meditated. I mean, honestly, pre-meditated mass murder, 12 people shot. You know, five dead and seven others. Well, seven police and two civilians injured. One of the issues is the, you know, the constant talk of communities getting together and police and communities trying to understand one another.

And Kamau, you did one of these episodes on United Shades of America. You rolled with the Camden, New Jersey, police sort of get a sense of that. If I can, I'd like to play one of the clips from your show and then ask you about it after. Have a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BELL: Being from Camden, do you think that helps you sort of patrol and be police officers?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. It makes them feel more comfortable because they're like, you don't understand my situation. You didn't go where I was at -- I'm like, wait a minute.

First of all, I'm from here. I was raised here so I know exactly what you're talking about. And it makes them feel a little bit more at ease.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Do you feel it though the lessons you learned on the streets of Camden apply? Are they different? Has this changed the metric of what happened in Dallas?

BELL: We -- I think we have to change the narrative. Because I hear all day on the news I've been watching a lot with CNN and other news programs. And there's a sort of idea of the police -- the community of police officers and the community of black people. And those are in separate communities. First of all Donnell knows, he, you know, he was in the military, was a police officer, those are -- that can be the same community and it's supposed to be the same community.

But -- What they're trying to do in Camden is understanding that the police should be a part of the community and they should work for the community. And I'm thinking a lot of communities in this country, the police aren't protecting the black community. They're protecting the white communities from the black community.

And I feel like that's the problem we've run into. We have to change the narrative way. The police, black communities pay the salaries of police officers. They should work for the community. And I don't want the horrible thing that happened in Dallas to distract from the death of Alton Sterling and Philando Castile, those deaths are also tragic. And I think we have -- I think, I get afraid that we're going to let this narrative take over. We have to change the whole narrative policing in this country.

It's not police versus black people. It is but it shouldn't be that way. BANFIELD: And the narrative so often is passed down, whether it's from white folks to their kids or black folks to their kids. It's what happened at the dinner table behind closed doors that becomes who we are as a nation.

To that end, I want to show two pictures of you with your kids. Because these are conversions we have to have. Donnell, this is you on the left with your incredibly adorable son and Kamau, your adorable daughter.

BELL: Oh, God.

BANFIELD: And I wonder how you -- it's so cute.

I just -- I wonder -- what are your -- I know what my conversations are with my boys. I want to know what your conversations are with yours.

RAWLINGS: I'd like to say, you know, as a parent, you want to be able to -- in a day, you want to be able to tell your kid to do something and just because you said so. Well, it's too many examples of situations where police are gone wild where you have to explain to him and give him reasons. I wanted to be able to tell my son, listen, "Respect the law. Respect your elders. Respect the authority." But then I know the question he'll ask, what -- especially with social media with dad, I was online. And there's so many examples when there are not even suspects, people that are being stopped that exhibit those same traits but at the same time, they end up being dead.

So as it's a tough thing like I want to -- I'm going to tell my son, respect the law and then I'll just pray that there's nothing that goes wrong where anyone would hurt or harm my son.

You know, me being a police officer in the past and I was in military, not the same as a civilian, but, you know, like -- and for every action, there's an equal or greater reaction that you -- all cops aren't bad cops. And we always make the argument they need more training. But being a cop is a very intense job. And you have to have a sensibility about yourself. And if you have these cops out here that don't understand that sensibility in every situation, it's not the same. And it going against the situations that ...

BANFIELD: I'm sorry. I'm sorry Donnell, I'm about to lose Kamau's window in about ten seconds. I need a line from you about what you're going to tell your daughter.

[13:00:01] BELL: That she shouldn't be surprised if one day she comes home and finds out that daddy has been killed by police officers.

BANFIELD: Oh God, I really was hoping you aren't going to say that. Kamau, thank you. I appreciate you being on. And that picture is spectacular.