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Security Beefed Up for July Fourth After Terror Attacks; Baghdad Bombing Death Toll Rising; Suicide Attack Near U.S. Consulate in Saudi Arabia; Trump, Clinton Face Political Firestorms. Aired 7- 7:30a ET

Aired July 4, 2016 - 07:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A scene of total devastation.

[07:00:04] JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Donald Trump facing new questions about a tweet that included anti-Semitic imagery.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This tweet originated in a white supremacist website.

COREY LEWANDOWSKI, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: This is political correctness.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hillary Clinton came to FBI headquarters.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Officials who are investigating the use of her private e-mail server.

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN ANCHOR: Should she step aside if there is a finding?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's something that, to me, is not even within the realm of possibility.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A toxic algae bloom at some of Florida's beaches.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's decimating our waterways. The smell, the look, everything about it is absolutely disgusting.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ANNOUNCER: This is NEW DAY with Chris Cuomo and Alisyn Camerota.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: Green algae, OK, that's bad timing...

BERMAN: Yes.

CAMEROTA: ... for the Fourth of July celebration.

BERMAN: Algae bloom, two words you never want to hear back to back.

CAMEROTA: Right. I agree. Greenhouse -- it sounds like a villain from a superhero movie.

BERMAN: An organic horror film.

CAMEROTA: Yes. Good morning, everyone. We will be explaining this story in more depth to you momentarily. But welcome back to a special Fourth of July holiday edition of NEW DAY. Chris is off this morning, and John Berman joins me.

BERMAN: Aren't you lucky?

CAMEROTA: Yes, I am lucky, John Berman.

But we do begin with a story on so many people's minds. Stepped up security for the Independence Day celebration. This comes after, of course, several terror attacks around the globe in just the past few days.

BERMAN: The death toll is soaring in Baghdad in the deadliest attack there in years. What does this all now say about what ISIS is capable of? Blamed for three gruesome attacks around the world in less than a week.

We've got this covered from everywhere. Let's begin with Deb Feyerick, live along New York's East River. That is where fireworks will be held tonight -- Deb.

DEBORAH FEYERICK, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, absolutely, and this is where three million people are going to descend to watch that spectacular show.

There's no credible intelligence of any sort of specific threat, but it's the unknown threat that has law enforcement across this country exceptionally worried. It's that self-radicalized extremist who wants to make a statement. And that's why you're going to have police out in full force from coast to coast.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

FEYERICK (voice-over): After a series of deadly attacks overseas, U.S. counterterror officials heightening security measures at so- called soft targets across the country, including the July Fourth fireworks displays tonight.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We have a pretty tight security plan for the Fourth of July.

FEYERICK: In the nation's capital, much of the dramatic increase in security will be hidden.

CHIEF ROBERT MACLEAN, WASHINGTON, D.C., PARK POLICE: We do have technology that folks will not see.

FEYERICK: The biggest fireworks show in America -- along New York City's East River, with an estimated 3 million spectators -- has the police in the Big Apple on high alert.

BILL BRATTON, NYPD COMMISSIONER: You will see a very significantly enhanced police presence in the city. FEYERICK: Out on the water, officials patrolling the harbors around

Manhattan and conducting security dives along the Macy's fireworks barges.

BILL DE BLASIO, MAYOR OF NEW YORK CITY: We are very, very vigilant. We'll have exceptional NYPD presence to keep everyone safe.

FEYERICK: The New York City mayor deploying 500-plus highly-trained, highly-armed officers, ready to prevent terror, the first Fourth of July the critical response team will be out in full force.

DE BLASIO: That sends a powerful message to anyone who might try and disrupt that we are ready to prevent that.

FEYERICK: Tensions already high...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It sounded like a cannon.

FEYERICK: ... after a small explosion in Central Park Sunday left a tourist's foot mangled.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: His foot is all but detached. His friends claim he was just walking down the rocks and stepped on something.

FEYERICK: That something believed to be an experiment with fireworks or a homemade explosive set off after a young tourist accidently stepped on it, according to the NYPD.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We believe this could have been put here as some sort of experiment.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

FEYERICK: Yes, and it was a very dangerous experiment. The NYPD bomb squad saying that it doesn't appear that the device had an intent to harm, and it may have been in the park for as long as a day. But it was not terror related. That's the initial assessment of the joint terrorism task force. But they're looking at it very, very closely.

Again, police are taking no chances. They're going to be investigating everything, and they're going to be trying to keep the streets safe. When people begin to come here to this area where the fireworks are going to be, they'll have to go through checkpoints. They're really going to funnel people in different directions. And they're going to be checking just to make sure that nobody gets in who's not supposed to be here -- John.

BERMAN: Obvious concern because of what's been going on around the world lately. Thanks so much, Deborah Feyerick on the East River.

Breaking news from Iraq this morning. The death toll there nearly doubling in the suicide attack at a busy shopping district in Baghdad. ISIS claimed responsibility. This is the third attack overseas in just the last week.

CNN's senior international correspondent Ben Wedeman, he is live in the Karrada district where that attack took place.

Ben, so deadly. And I know the families there just suffering such grief this morning.

BEN WEDEMAN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, at this point, according to Iraqi authorities, John, more than 200 people dead, and that number is expected to rise.

[07:05:08] One of the problems is that people are worried about, you know, they cannot find their relatives of the bodies they've been able to recover. Eighty-one are so burnt that they cannot be recognized, so they'll have to be put to DNA tests to find out who exactly they are.

We've been watching as other people have been collecting, basically, pieces of charred flesh, putting them in plastic bags, and taking them to a hospital, because nobody has any way to identify these people.

And of course, in addition to just the shock and the trauma of what has happened, there's a lot of anger, because many Iraqis feel that the government has failed them. Yesterday, we saw when the prime minister, Haider al-Abadi, came here, he was driven out of this neighborhood by angry residents, throwing bottles and rocks, accusing him of simply failing to do what is need to stop this sort of attack -- Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: Ben, it's just terrible to look at the scene behind you, still unfolding there during this investigation. Thank you for that reporting.

There are new revelations in the bloody terror attack at that Bangladesh cafe. CNN learning the attackers killed the hostages within 20 minutes of storming the cafe.

Investigators learning this new information from the hostages that they were able to rescue in that 11-hour standoff. Two people injured in the siege are now considered suspects. Twenty-two people died in that attack.

BERMAN: New this morning, a suicide attack just feet from the U.S. consulate in Saudi Arabia. CNN international diplomatic editor Nic Robertson has more.

Nic, this attack in Jeddah.

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: Yes, John, this could have been much worse, it appears. This lone suicide bomber walking, wandering around a hospital car park that's right next to the U.S. consulate in Jeddah at 3 a.m. in the morning. You might think the streets would be deserted, but it's Ramadan. That time of night in Saudi Arabia, there's a lot of people out on the streets.

But the police spotted him acting suspiciously, approached him. He detonated his explosives. Two officers slightly injured, taken to hospital for treatment. But when the bomb squad was brought in, they found that the vehicle he

had with him had three other bombs in it. Of course, ten meters from the wall of the U.S. consulate, it could have been done damage there. No one in the consulate was injured in the initial explosion.

The bomb disposal squad brought in a robot to identify and destroy those other bombs.

There was an attack on that consulate back in 2004. The consulate itself is in the middle of the city of Jeddah. The embassy in Riyadh is in a much more secure location. There's rings of security, diplomatic security around that area. In Jeddah, it seems that the bomber was able to get right up to the wall. It could have been much worse -- Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: Absolutely. It is shocking how close he was able to get. Nick, thank you for all of that.

Let's discuss what all of these attacks mean for counterterrorism efforts here at home. Joining us now is Connecticut Democratic Congressman on the House permanent Select Committee on Intelligence, Congressman Jim Hines. He is also a Hillary Clinton supporter.

Congressman, thanks so much for being with us on this holiday.

REP. JIM HINES (D), CONNECTICUT: Good morning, Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: So we've been told throughout this week that there is no credible intelligence on any attack that might be planned here in the U.S., but that's cold comfort for many people given what we saw in Orlando and now around the globe. How much stock do you put in the "no credible intelligence" thought?

HINES: Well, a little bit. A little bit in the sense that, look, a lot of the stuff that happens, particularly that stuff that happens with relatively limited numbers of people involved, without the use of, you know, communications networks, without people traveling to some foreign country to get training, some of the stuff doesn't get picked up. And that's sort of the harsh reality of the situation.

Obviously, bigger plots that do involve lots of people do get picked up and do get stopped. Now, oftentimes the public doesn't hear about those events, but as we saw in the Boston Marathon bombing and, of course, in Orlando or San Bernardino, those people who are working more or less alone are going to have a reasonable shot of causing some mayhem.

CAMEROTA: So do you worry tonight about people going out for big gatherings at these Fourth of July celebrations?

HINES: Well, you do worry. Again, as good as our intelligence community is, as good as our law enforcement people are, they can't stop everything. But people need to keep things in perspective here.

You know, you sort of forget that there's an entire, you know, trans- European soccer tournament being played right now with finals and tens of thousands of people gathering without incident. And you know, we're all keeping our fingers crossed. And obviously, law enforcement is working very, very hard right now. Hopefully, today comes off without incident.

But you know, the message is twofold. One: you know, people can't let the chance of some kind of event keep them from living their lives. That is exactly, of course, what the terrorists want.

[07:10:05] And secondly and importantly, people need to be vigilant. There have been attacks foiled, including one in Times Square, because people were just alert, keeping their eyes open, and they actually helped stop an event.

So I would -- my advice, sitting as I do on the intelligence committee, is enjoy a wonderful Fourth, but keep your eyes open.

CAMEROTA: And so when you say keep your eyes open, in other words, when people go out to Fourth of July events tonight, they should -- if they see anything suspicious, they should what?

HINES: It's like they say in the New York subways: if you see something, say something. You know, this event in Saudi Arabia that you were just talking about, of course, police observed a guy walking around in a parking lot at 3 in the morning. If you see something that looks a little bit out of -- out of kilter, talk to somebody. Let law enforcement know. In all likelihood, it's nothing, but law enforcement will not be -- will not feel bothered because you raised your hand and said, "Hey, I see something that looks a little strange."

CAMEROTA: Congressman, at the same time that all of these attacks are happening, we hear from the military, as well as many of our leaders here, that the fight against ISIS, at least in terms of territory, is going well. That Fallujah has been liberated.

But, you know, one of your Congressmen -- one of your colleagues, I should say, Congressman Nunez, says that he feels that we are exaggerating the success against ISIS. Let me play for you what he said about this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. DEVIN NUNEZ (R), CALIFORNIA: There's a lot of victory laps being done, because people are talking about the percentage of land in Iraq and Syria that somehow is now not part of -- under ISIS control.

Look, at this point, a lot of that is not under anyone's control except for probably the Kurdish area.

ISIS just conducted a massive attack in Bangladesh. They just conducted an attack in Orlando. So -- so you know, to try to say that somehow we're winning this right now, I think is just -- is just far- fetched.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: Congressman, what's your response?

HINES: Well, I haven't seen anybody doing any sorts of victory laps. I'm not quite sure what Chairman Nunez meant by that.

CAMEROTA: Well, you know, I mean, we have heard that -- leaders say that, look, in terms of territory, it's shrinking. ISIS isn't going to be able to have their base of operations. There is a feeling that good news had been coming out, certainly after Fallujah.

HINES: Yes, look, there's a difference between reporting the facts that ISIS now controls one heck of a lot less territory in Syria and Iraq than they used to a year ago. That's not a debatable fact. That is true, including the city of Fallujah and any number of cities, Sinjar that used to be owned by ISIS. They don't control those. That's not the same as a victory lap.

However, I will say -- and a number of people have made this point is that, as they get squeezed militarily, they will look to create more spectacular attacks that make the press through terrorism.

And remember, terrorism is a -- is a tool of the weak. You know, when you go into a soft target, a train station or into a public event with a weapon and you kill a couple of people, that is not an illustration of military strength or military capability. This is something that you do to scare a lot of people, to try to draw attention to yourself.

So again, I'm not sure this needs to get political, the way Chairman Nunez was framing it. I don't see victory laps. The fact of the matter is that the allied forces are taking fight, in a very big way, to ISIS. They're now down to a lot less territory, but that does not mean that we can be complacent about the need to be vigilant here at home or in Europe or anywhere else where they may attempt a terrorist attack.

CAMEROTA: And it also doesn't seem to mean that they need a big base of operations. When you look at the death toll here, Istanbul at the airport, 44 people killed. Bangladesh, 22 dead, including two police officers. And then, of course, this horrific attack in Baghdad. At least 200 people dead, many of them children. So I guess the question is, does the fact that their territory is being squeezed, does it matter? They can still pull these off?

HINES: Well, it certainly matters. I mean, yes, it is true that, I mean, as we observed in the San Bernardino attacks or quite possibly in the Orlando attack, it is not necessary for these people who may be radicalized or may be motivated or who may be simply trying to hitch their wagon to ISIS to do the deeds they want to do, without necessarily spending a lot of time on the phone or sending e-mails to ISIS in Syria or Iraq. You know, that communication doesn't need to happen.

So yes, they don't -- they don't necessarily need a wide base of operations. This is -- but that, of course, doesn't mean that I would equate, necessarily, the Baghdad attacks. Look, Baghdad for a very long period of time now has been a place of some chaos. Sadly, car bombs are more the rule than the exception... CAMEROTA: Yes.

HINES: ... in a place like Baghdad. But that's very different than -- than being here in the United States, where law enforcement and where, you know, government exists and where law enforcement is much more capable than they are in a place like Baghdad.

CAMEROTA: Yes. Congressman Jim Hines, thank you very much for taking time on...

HINES: Thank you, Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: ... the Fourth of July to share your thoughts with us.

HINES: Take care.

CAMEROTA: Let's get over to John.

BERMAN: Thanks, Alisyn.

The Republican and Democratic conventions just weeks away. Both presumptive nominees trying to squash major controversies this morning. Hillary Clinton fresh off a three-hour sit-down with the FBI over her use of a private e-mail server while secretary of state, and Donald Trump facing accusations of anti-Semitism over a tweet.

CNN's Joe Johns is live in Washington. Let's start with Donald Trump and Twitter.

JOE JOHNS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, John.

A lot of politics over the weekend. Controversy over those images tweeted by Donald Trump of what appeared to be a six-pointed star with pictures of hundred-dollar bills, calling the former secretary of state corrupt.

Now, that image, which looked like a representation of a Star of David, was later deleted and replaced without comment by the campaign. Very similar to an image that had been posted ten days earlier on a fringe message board that carried anti-Semitic conspiracy theories and neo-Nazi ideology.

Critics, including the national director of the Anti-Defamation League, calling the image offensive and alarming. The campaign hasn't commented on the tweet, but Donald Trump's former campaign manager, Corey Lewandowski, said on CNN that the image was the same star that sheriffs' departments use and that people reading something into the tweet that wasn't there, calling it political correctness run amok.

And meanwhile, a long-awaited, long-expected moment for Hillary Clinton and her campaign over the weekend. That interview with the FBI about the e-mail controversy that has dogged her campaign. It lasted about 3 1/2 hours. The campaign has been saying for months that Hillary Clinton wanted to get it over with. And she said on MSNBC Saturday it was something she was eager to do, though it comes at a very difficult time for her campaign, as you say, just weeks away from the Democratic convention. No details so far on what she said as that investigation goes on -- Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: OK, Joe. Thank you for all of that reporting.

Well, a police-involved shooting in Nevada sends terrified festival goers running for cover. Reno police say they opened fire on a driver who tried to run over an officer and plow through the barricades at this crowded festival. Police say the suspect was trying to escape an earlier traffic stop. He crashed into a vendor and was pronounced dead at the hospital. No one at the festival was hurt.

BERMAN: Country music fans in Pittsburgh created a huge mess at a Kenny Chesney concert this weekend. Dozens of fans were hospitalized, and police made seven arrests, all for alcohol-fueled violence. Tailgaters at Heinz Field left about 48 tons of trash in the parking lot.

Police say this is an improvement compared to the 73 arrests made at a Kenny Chesney show back in 2013.

CAMEROTA: Well, after a tough few weeks, police in Orlando are going to new lengths to try to keep their community smiling. Watch this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(MUSIC: WHITNEY HOUSTON'S "I WANT TO DANCE WITH SOMEBODY")

(PEOPLE DANCING)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: The horse was dancing.

BERMAN: Wow. The horse has got rhythm.

CAMEROTA: This is important. These are all members of the Orange County Sheriffs' Office. They were the first responders to that Orlando terror attack last month. Sheriff Jerry Demings cranks up the music before hundreds of the members of the department get in on the dancing, including, as you saw, the police dogs. What? And the helicopter. And the horses and everybody.

BERMAN: Good for them. They need to smile there, to be sure.

CAMEROTA: Dancing and music can cure a lot.

BERMAN: And they're good. They're good dancers.

CAMEROTA: I saw some moves.

BERMAN: Just saying.

All right. We have more on Hillary Clinton's meeting with the FBI. Three hours in a sit-down. Even if she does not face charges, has the damage already been done when it comes to her perceived honesty and trustworthiness?

This special Fourth of July edition of NEW DAY returns.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[07:22:47] BERMAN: The Republican convention is just days away. Hillary Clinton was just interviewed by the FBI, and Donald Trump is dealing with a new controversy. He sent a tweet with an anti-Semitic image this weekend before taking it down, but Trump won't, or at least hasn't, said he's sorry.

Joining me now, CNN political commentator and host of "The Ben Ferguson Show," Ben Ferguson; and CNN political commentator and former South Carolina state representative, Bakari Sellers. He supports Hillary Clinton.

Ben, I know you think this tweet from Donald Trump was an accident. Doesn't he need to explain, though, how he accidently found this image, which had been tweeted out by an anti-Semitic Twitter handle and on an anti-Semitic, you know, web page? Doesn't he need to explain how he found it and accidently sent it out to his 8 million Twitter followers?

BEN FERGUSON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I think certainly if he tweeted out "my bad" and resent out the new one, it would have been a better move politically.

But this is one of those things that Donald Trump seems to be part of his campaign, which is "I don't apologize for anything. I changed it. There's the change. End of discussion. You've seen it. Obviously, that's me correcting it here."

This goes to a bigger issue, though, with Donald Trump. You've got to do a better job of making sure you know what's in your tweets before you tweet them out.

And I understand he loves Twitter and he tweets a lot, but this also took away from a very bad week for Hillary Clinton. And if he wouldn't have sent out any tweets at all, it would have been a better campaign move for him moving forward when Hillary Clinton probably had her worst week of this election cycle thus far. And yet, now we're talking about a stupid tweet instead of what really matters, which is a candidate for the presidency being interviewed by the FBI, under investigation.

BERMAN: You think this is just, you know, mishandling Twitter or Twitter misuse?

FERGUSON: Yes.

BERMAN: Or do you think there's something bigger here, Ben?

FERGUSON: No, I really don't. I think this is a classic, "I want to put some text in a star to highlight it. I picked the wrong star. I fixed it, made it a round circle, and moved on." I don't think this is some, you know, sub-message here, subtext here. If there was, I don't think he would have taken it down so quickly. And this is, I think, one of only texts -- tweets he's taken down

since he started running for president. So obviously, he knew he made a mistake, and he took it down and corrected it. It was a dumb mistake.

[07:25:08] This is what I refer to as a political bush-league mistake, but it took him off message on the focus of Hillary Clinton, who's running for president, being interviewed by the FBI.

When this happens, the Trump campaign shouldn't be tweeting anything out. They should let that be the story.

BERMAN: Someone, though, had to go find this image, which again...

FERGUSON: Sure.

BERMAN: Which had been on other Twitter feeds and a site. So someone actively did this. It wasn't just a matter of, you know, using a star, albeit a Star of David, to highlight something.

Bakari Sellers, though, let's talk about Hillary Clinton's weekend. Because it's not part of the normal political playbook to sit down with the FBI for 3 1/2 hours some three weeks before your convention. This is not something that looks good for Hillary Clinton.

BAKARI SELLERS, CNN COMMENTATOR: No, it doesn't. And Ben actually had it right. This has been one of the more difficult weeks, I think, for the campaign. You know, Donald Trump had been playing defense the entire general election cycle. And this week was the first week in which the Republican Party actually had the Clinton campaign on defense. So we're thankful that Donald Trump likes to tweet. But that's first and foremost.

But I think I have to get to the point of the investigation. I do this type of work often in my legal practice. And I'll tell you what I've been telling people throughout the weekend. That if you have any hint of exposure, any hint of criminal illegality, you don't sit down with the FBI. You just do not. And I know that some people say that she had to politically. Well, no one in their right mind is going to risk going to prison instead of doing something that's politically expedient.

So I think that this also signals that it's the end of this investigation. I'm excited about that. And I think that we'll have some results before the RNC. And I think that this is the last block between Hillary Clinton becoming president of the United States. And I know that she's hopeful that she'll get past this sooner rather than later.

BERMAN: Bakari, just to be clear, CNN's reporting is that it is unlikely that she will be indicted, unless something came up during that three-hour interview that we're unaware of right now. So there is that.

But even without an indictment, this has already done some damage here. I want to put up some numbers on what voters say about whether Hillary Clinton is honest and trustworthy. Only 30 percent say yes; 66 percent say no.

And then there's a flat-out question, you know: Is Hillary Clinton corrupt? Fifty-eight percent say yes, she's corrupt. That's hard to shake, Bakari...

SELLERS: It is.

BERMAN: ... even with a convention.

SELLERS: It is hard to shake, but you also have to understand that this has been a woman who's been the most admired woman in the world for the past 20 years. She's been undergoing these attacks since the early '90s. So I mean, this is just -- this is what happens when you undergo these attacks for two decades. And she's still standing strong and still fighting.

But yes, this is an issue that she's going to have to deal with. She's going to have to go out and earn voters' trust. I mean, she's attempting to do that. And I think that a lot of this criticism is unfair, but I do think once this investigation is completed, then you'll see some of those numbers begin to change.

FERGUSON: Look, I've got to jump in here and just say, to say that Hillary Clinton is one of the most admired women in the world is ridiculous when you have a trust issue like this.

SELLERS: That's a fact, though, Ben.

FERGUSON: It's not a fact.

SELLERS: That's a fact.

FERGUSON: She's not one of the most admired. No -- no, she's not.

SELLERS: No, she...

FERGUSON: These polls are saying she's not the most admired woman in the world.

SELLERS: "TIME" magazine -- "TIME" magazine, year after year after year after year, has ranked her as one of the most admired women in the world. It's a fact.

FERGUSON: And this is where I think the Hillary Clinton campaign is totally overestimating how amazing Hillary Clinton is. The fact is, the voters disagree with this idea that she's some incredible woman. They don't believe her. They don't trust her. They feel like that she is corrupt.

Look at the meeting on the tarmac with Bill Clinton. This meeting, when you're a Clinton -- he's run for president twice, won twice. She's now running for the second time, lost the first time. There is nothing that you do in your day that's not about getting re-elected or getting elected, I should say in her case.

And for him to go sit down with a woman who's in charge, the attorney general, and then just say it was just a friendly conversation, there's no way that the American people believe that Bill Clinton sitting down with the attorney general was not political in nature while you're running for the presidency, your wife is.

And they come out, and they're like, "Oh, it was a friendly conversation. There was nothing wrongdoing here. It had nothing to do with her being investigated or about to," within hours of the sit- down with the FBI.

SELLERS: But you have no proof of that, Ben. Sorry.

FERGUSON: Here's what I know. I know logically, when you're running for president, Bakari...

SELLERS; But you have no proof of that.

FERGUSON: ... you don't have a meeting with someone while your wife is under investigation.

SELLERS: But you have no proof of that, Ben. Again. But the fact is, Ben, the fact is that if there was something nefarious, if Bill Clinton wanted to circumvent the law or do something nefarious, then he wouldn't have a public meeting on the tarmac with the attorney general. He might have just picked up the phone.

BERMAN: Hang on, hang on.

SELLERS: So they're being...

BERMAN: Bakari, just -- we've got to go, but I want to make two points. One, it wasn't exactly public. It's public now because we found out about it.

But two, Bakari, while we don't know what went on in that discussion -- you know, certainly, Ben, you're speculating what went on in that discussion. We simply do not know what was discussed.

FERGUSON: Of course. That...

BERMAN: They say the grandchildren. Hang on, hang on.

Bakari, I want to give you the last question: scale of one to ten, how much do you wish that meeting didn't take place, Bakari?

SELLERS: Forty-five, 50. Is that an option? I mean, it was really bad optics. And I think that both Bill Clinton and Loretta Lynch...