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Sit-in Over Guns; Supreme Court on Immigration. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired June 23, 2016 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:00:20] ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: Here we are. Top of the hour. You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin. Thank you for being with me.

Any moment now, we are expecting the leader of House Democrats, Nancy Pelosi, to come out on Capitol Hill to talk about this historic protest that lasted for more than 24 hours inside the halls of Congress. Democratic members staged this sit-in, decrying the lack of action from lawmakers on gun control days after the Orlando nightclub shooting. The deadliest mass shooting in the United States. Minutes ago, Democrats left the House floor and went to the steps of the U.S. Capitol. They were greeted - you can see these picture here - by a number of folks outside. Greeted by cheers. You heard some of the singing there. But before leaving, the man who set off this sit-in, civil rights icon, Congressman John Lewis, he spoke.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. JOHN LEWIS (D), GEORGIA: We're going to go home, as Jim suggested, our leader, our whip and others have suggested. We're going to organize. We're going to mobilize. Our people are with us. Not just in our district, but people all over America and around the world. Social media told the story.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: After the sit-in was well in, we heard from House Speaker Paul Ryan essentially calling this, his words, a publicity stunt. Speaker Ryan ended the floor session and shut down the House camera, but the Democrats went to social media to keep those images up and running, Periscope, Twitter, you name it. Speaker Ryan insists the public should not be swayed.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. PAUL RYAN (R), HOUSE SPEAKER: They are not trying to actually get this done through regular order. No, instead, they're staging protests. They're trying to get on TV. They are sending out fundraising solicitations, like this one. "House Democrats on the House floor, you contribution will go to the DCCC, $15." If this is not a political stunt, then why are they trying to raise money off of this, off of a tragedy? (END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Let's take you live to Capitol Hill, and my colleague, our senior political reporter, Manu Raju.

Manu, talk to me about why they decided to end the sit-in and was it unanimous?

MANU RAJU, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL REPORTER: Well, you know, it was interesting, Brooke, actually they emerged from a closed door meeting where they debated what to do. And what you really sense - and my colleagues did as well as we interviewed these members who are leaving - there just wasn't really the stamina and desire to continue this through the recess and also probably also realization that maybe politically this may not work, may not get as much attention, and that this was probably the right time to sort of pull the plug on it, even though, of course, their motto is, "no bill, no break."

But, you know, Democrats were debating what to do. They were debating whether or not to come back, maybe have a skeleton crew of a handful of people holding the floor, coming back and making their voices heard. But at the end of the day, they believe they made their points politically. They're clearly not going to get a vote. But they think that they could win this argument with voters. They could take it back to their home district, make the case in this election year that they should get a vote.

So, at the end of the y, they think they - they believe they achieved their objectives, but Republicans believe that this was, as Paul Ryan said, clearly just an act to rile up their base and not do anything more than that.

BALDWIN: All right, Manu, thank you very much.

Again, just a reminder, we're watching and waiting to hear from House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi, talking about the sit-in for the past 24 hours or so. You know, the bill they wanted to see come to a vote would prevent those on terror watch lists from getting guns. It's called the no fly/no buy proposal.

We turn now to Republican Congresswoman Diane Black, who is from Tennessee.

Congresswoman Back, welcome. Nice to have you on.

REP. DIANE BLACK (R), TENNESSEE: Thank you, Brooke. It's good to be with you.

BALDWIN: All right. So we now know the sit-in, over. Your thoughts on what the Dems were trying to do?

BLACK: Well, I'm very disappointed. What was going on there is beneath the dignity of this institution and it lacks respect for Congress. We have rules that we're not allowed to drink anything on the floor, eat anything on the floor. We're not allowed to use our cell phones. And yet they broke every one of those rules. They were there in their pajamas, eating pizza, drinking beer. I - I just think that it's unconscionable what they were doing. Listen, there is a way for them to bring this to the floor. It is called a discharge petition.

BALDWIN: Wait, but is it the beer and the pizza that you're offended by, congresswoman, with all due respect, or is it a little bit more than that?

BLACK: Well, it's - it's the fact that they brought these kinds of things that are prohibited onto the House floor. We're not even allowed to take pictures with our grandchildren on the floor, and yet they were taking pictures, sending them out and using this as a fundraising tool. I'm really disappointed that this was the action they took because there is a way, if they wanted to get the legislation to the floor, it's called a discharge position. We have rules and we should be abiding by those rules. And besides which, they were stopping us from doing our work. The American people, the hard working taxpayer dollar, don't want to turn on our television and see all these antics up here. They want us to do our work. And that was stopping us even from discussing -

[14:05:25] BALDWIN: I - I get it. And, listen, I appreciate the rules. I also do know - I was talking to a member of Congress yesterday, who reminded me it wasn't too long ago under Leader Pelosi, you know, that the Republicans staged something similar and that it was the Democrats who turned the lights off. So, just to be fair, it's happened on both sides. Do you -

BLACK: But - but - but I think we have to be fair about that.

BALDWIN: Do you, congresswoman - hold on, do (INAUDIBLE) know -

BLACK: But you have to be fair, Brooke.

BALDWIN: Do you give them any kind of credit for their passion, for what they feel so strongly about, including Congressman Lewis?

BLACK: OK, first of all, I want to tell you, when the Republicans did this, they were in recess, and that's different. There are things that can occur on the floor during recess. We were in session. So let's make that straight.

BALDWIN: OK.

BLACK: That wasn't a disrespect for the institution.

Do I respect their passion? Absolutely. I am passionate about a number of things, but I don't close down the House floor because I don't get my way. And that's not the way we should be operating here in Congress. We should have a more respect for this institution than that.

Look, this is a deeply personal thing for me. I'm a Second Amendment person, because I actually have experience being assaulted and now have a weapon to protect myself. And that is my right. And I don't want anybody to take that away from me.

BALDWIN: Will you tell me about that? What happened at Vanderbilt some years ago?

BLACK: Well, it was a number of years ago. And I was walking in the middle of the day. I had come out of one of the buildings where I was conducting some business. We had a group of church women that we were going to do a convention there. And walking on the sidewalk and there was a car with three young men that pulled up beside me on the curb. I've never felt anything since then or like that beforehand, but I knew I was in danger. I turned to try to run back to the building. They got out of the car. They attempted to get me in the car. The police said if I had gotten in the car, I probably would have never come back. I fought, but they beat me up pretty badly, broke my cheekbone, ruptured a disc in my back. And from that point forward, I realized that I have a right to protect myself and I'm going to take advantage of that. And I have.

BALDWIN: I - my heart goes out to you. And, I mean, you 100 percent have a right to carry a weapon, to have a concealed permit, but what does that have to do with - I mean I talked to David Jolly, your Republican colleague from the House, just yesterday, who we know on Tuesday introduced a similar no fly/no buy piece of legislation. What does, you know, absolutely your right to carry a concealed weapon have anything to do with whether or not you're on a terror watch list and the fact that you shouldn't be able to buy a gun if you are?

BLACK: It's about our constitutional protection. And the bill that, by the way, they were talking about has been discussed over in the Senate. It was not only voted down by the Republicans, but there were also Democrats. And, guess what, that bill even is opposed about the ACLU. Now, look when you get three groups like that together to say that that bill was taking away the Fifth Amendment, the right to due process, we have to stop. We have to really look at this situation and say, what do we really need to do?

I am learning more and more about the no fly list. As a matter of fact, my husband was on some similar list several years ago that we had to try and - finally try to figure out, how did he get on this list. It was because he had a common name. He couldn't get a ticket printed out at home if he was going to fly in less than 48 hours. And he finally was told by a ticket agent at the airport that if he just put his middle initial in, then he would probably be taken off this list.

We have a right to due process. And if people are being put on that list, as we know Ted Kennedy was on that list, but not know about it and not find out about it until you either apply for a gun permit or you try to get another ticket and you're refused that, what if I had a death in my family and they said, well, we're sorry now, we've got three days before you can actually fly. So we need to get a handle on just how we use that no-fly list.

Look, none of us want a terrorist -

BALDWIN: I can understand. But, again, talking to -

BLACK: None of us want a terrorist with a gun. BALDWIN: Talking to folks on the other side, and, listen, there was an excellent column written in "The Washington Post" today by someone who's saying, you know, Anna Gabrielle (ph) is her name, saying, I'm on the - I'm on the, you know, no-fly list. But there are work arounds, you know, You have to take a couple of minutes longer in the airport, and I'm sure your husband can relate to that. But if your husband wanted to have a gun, he could probably have a gun. At the same time, if, you know, if someone has nefarious intentions -

BLACK: No, you're refused (ph) the gun if you're on that list.

BALDWIN: That's correct.

BLACK: you are refused it.

BALDWIN: But - that is correct, but there are - if someone has nefarious intentions and they are on that list for the right reasons they should be on that list -

BLACK: And if they are, if -

BALDWIN: Why do you think that they should be able to own a gun? Just answer me that.

BLACK: I do not. I do not. So let me make that very clear.

BALDWIN: OK.

BLACK: If someone is rightfully on a list that shows they are potentially a terrorist, then we do not want them having a gun. But the list that we currently have, and I would love to come back and visit with you. I'm going to make a trip out to the FBI and I'm going to look at this list because there's a lot of confusion about how you get on there, how you find out you're on there -

BALDWIN: And multiple lists.

BLACK: And then how you get off of there. And so we have to be sure that that list is being used appropriately.

[14:10:06] Look at what just happened down there in Orlando. Look, this young man had been watched by the FBI. And somehow he is not on that list. Isn't that curious about why he would not be on that list? So I think we have to look at this list, make sure it's being used appropriately, and that we're not taking away someone's constitutionally protected rights. I'm all for that. Let's open that discussion up, have an honest discussion and let's get down to the point where we can say, if you're on this list, you're on there for a reason, and absolutely you should not be able to get a gun. But let's do it reasonably and not with all of this - what's been happening right now. This is not the way Congress should be acting.

BALDWIN: OK, I thank you so much for your perspective. I want to hear it from all sides. And we'll talk post FBI.

BLACK: I look forward to it. BALDWIN: Congresswoman Diane Black from Tennessee, thank you, ma'am, very much. I appreciate it.

BLACK: Thank you.

BALDWIN: Now we have more break news here. The U.S. Supreme Court delivering a massive blow to President Obama's agenda, blocking his plan for millions and millions of dreamers, and undocumented immigrants facing deportation. Hear how the president reacted earlier today to this.

Also, in Baltimore, the police officers facing the most serious charges in Freddie Gray's death is not guilty, found not guilty. We have the reason, the reaction in that city, coming up.

And some frightening moments today inside of this movie theater in Germany. What happens after a masked gunman stormed in and took hostages.

I'm Brooke Baldwin. And this is CNN's special live coverage.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:15:26] BALDWIN: And we're back. Breaking news. You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

In a crushing blow to President Obama, the U.S. Supreme Court has blocked the White House's controversial immigration plan. Justices deadlocked 4-4, split, unable to rule on the legality of this executive action to shield as many as 4 million undocumented immigrants from possible deportation. Listen, when you think of President Obama's legacy, it's a huge, huge blow. This is a man who hoped to add this ambitious plan as part of his presidential legacy once he's out of office in six months.

It's a huge win, though, for 26 states, most with Republican governors and attorneys general, who challenged the plan. They claim the president abused his executive powers. President Obama speaking today, calling this outcome in a word "heartbreaking," saying the immigration debate is now in the hands of you, the American voters.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: What was unaffected by today's ruling, or lack of a ruling, is the enforcement of priorities that we've put in place. We prioritize criminals. We prioritize gang- bangers. We prioritize folks who have just come in. What we don't do is to prioritize people who have been here a long time, who are otherwise law-abiding, who have roots and connections in their communities.

And the Supreme Court wasn't definitive one way or the other on this. I mean the problem is they don't have a ninth justice. If we have a full court issuing a full opinion on anything, then we take it seriously. This we have to abide by, but it - it wasn't any kind of value statement. If we're really going to solve this problem effectively, we've got to

have Congress pass a law. You know, I have pushed to the limits of my executive authority. We now have to have Congress act. And, hopefully, we're going to have a vigorous debate during this election. This is how democracy is supposed to work. And there will be a determination as to which direction we go in.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Let's go first here to our Supreme Court correspondent there, Ariane de Vogue.

Would you just explain to me more about the split? What happened?

ARIANE DE VOGUE, CNN SUPREME COURT REPORTER: Well, as you said, the 4- 4 split blocked the lower court - blocked the program. But what the Supreme Court hasn't done is issued an opinion. It's simply upholds the lower courts. And, in fact, all we got here at the court is this piece of paper saying that they were eventually divided. The Supreme Court does not like to go 4-4. It's as if they've never even heard the case. And in some ways they think it's a waste of time because they didn't issue a big opinion here at all.

One other point, is it really shows the power of a lower court judge in Texas who was able to first block these programs nationwide. He was later upheld by the appeals court. But it just goes to show the power of that one judge who started this.

BALDWIN: Because now that it's a split, it kicks it back down - the issues kick back down to the lower court.

Ariane de Vogue, thank you.

Republicans are celebrating this move by the Supreme Court, the split. We've heard from House Speaker Paul Ryan saying, quote, "the president is not permitted to write laws, only Congress is," end quote. The president quick to attack Republicans for failing to meet with his Supreme Court choice, Merrick Garland. And then, keep in mind, you have these 4 million undocumented immigrants who are very much in legal limbo.

So, Jeffrey Toobin, our go-to guy on all of this, senior legal analyst, wrote the book on the Supreme Court, and Princeton University history and public affairs professor, Julian Zelzer.

So, gentlemen, welcome.

And, Mr. Toobin, to you first. First of all, just what happens to these 4 million people?

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Well, the president said two things. He said, in terms of deportations, we are not going to pursue them, just as we have not been pursuing them in the past. That's not a guarantee that a different president would have different priorities. But certainly for the remainder of President Obama's presidency, they are not going to be pursued. The other thing he said is, our plan to give them permission to work,

to let them come out of the shadows, to start paying taxes in an open way, all of that is on hold. That is not going to happen because of the Supreme Court's decision.

[14:20:00] BALDWIN: So when you look at the politics of this, we are well into this election, professor. You know, and the president only has, what, six or so months left. When you talk about legacy building, and this was such a - this was a key cornerstone for him, this executive action on immigration. How big of a blow is this, looking post Oval Office?

JULIAN ZELZER, PROFESSOR OF HISTORY AND PUBLIC AFFAIRS, PRINCETON UNIVERSITY: It's very significant. You know, immigration is one of the areas of policy where he got blocked by the post 2010 Congress. He has not made progress, so he used executive action. And for the Supreme Court to make this decision/indecision, effectively puts this on hold. And with a policy like immigration, uncertainty itself is a problem. So this is a blow to a policy and it shows some of the limits, as the president said, of executive action. It can easily be undone.

BALDWIN: When you look at both, you know, presumed nominees here, you know, I am - because I'm sure they're already rallying the troops. How will this help, you know, galvanize both Dems, but also unify the Republican Party on their stance on immigration?

ZELZER: Well, for Democrats, it, obviously, will mobilize many of them, many voters, many immigrant voters to see what the stakes are in this election and -

BALDWIN: She had moved farther left than President Obama.

ZELZER: She's moved farther -

BALDWIN: She wanted more.

ZELZER: Exactly. And so this might bolster some of the enthusiasm for her and for her candidacy. But it will do the same for Republicans. This shifts the issues away from Donald Trump and all his rhetoric toward a policy many Republicans care a lot about and they might want to double down on their side to make sure there is a president who continues with the path that the Supreme Court has just decided on.

BALDWIN: Jeff, what do you think the politics of all this -

TOOBIN: And - and, Brooke, just -

BALDWIN: Yes, yes, yes, jump in.

TOOBIN: Well, just - I mean just, in a very simple sense, this underlines the importance of the Supreme Court as a voting issue in -

BALDWIN: Yes.

TOOBIN: For president.

BALDWIN: Yes.

TOOBIN: I mean we have this vacancy. We are likely to have more vacancies. We see in decisions like this one, in the - in the other big decision today, which endorsed affirmative action, the Supreme Court has the last word on all these issues. It is a very closely divided court. There are - is one vacancy. There are likely to be more vacancies. The next president will fill those and people should cast their votes with that in mind because there is no greater power of a president than to nominate Supreme Court justices.

BALDWIN: Thank you for underscoring that. Jeffrey Toobin and Julian Zelzer, appreciate you both.

ZELZER: Thank you.

BALDWIN: We have more breaking news today in the city of Baltimore. The police officer facing the most serious charges in the death of Freddie Gray found not guilty on all charges. We have reaction from the courthouse and what this means for four other police officers still waiting for their trials, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:27:18] BALDWIN: All right, more breaking news on this Thursday afternoon. Seven days of testimony, 30 witnesses and a police officer in the defendant's chair, we now have a second verdict in the death of a Freddie Gray trial, not guilty on all charges. Caesar Goodson, he is the police van driver who's accused of taking Gray on what's called a rough ride in that van after the 25-year-old was arrested last year. Now, Officer Goodson faced seven charges, you see them here, including, you know, the most serious of all these officers, second- degree murder. Prosecutors argued Goodson intentionally caused Gray's severe spinal cord injuries with, they argued, reckless driving. But the judge said their evidence didn't prove it. And Officer Goodson, also, he did not take the stand. Gray's death - oh, forgive me, we're going to pull away from Baltimore and go to House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi speaking on the Democrat's sit-in.

REP. NANCY PELOSI (D), HOUSE MINORITY LEADER: The attention of the American people on their radical and reckless obstruction to bipartisan, very popular gun safety bills. When the Republicans turned off the microphones, we raised our voices. They turned off the cameras, we went to Periscope. They tried to shut down the discussion, and what resulted was a discussion heard round the world.

All this trouble just because the Republicans refused to give us a vote on common sense gun violence legislation overwhelmingly supported by the American people. In the case of one bill, 85 percent, the other, 90 percent of the American people. The Republican House should have the courage to keep guns out of the hands of criminals and suspected terrorists. No bill, no break. Well, they then, the dark of night, left the House with two more days of work to do and left, what, for almost two weeks. Just unbelievable. Well, it's not unbelievable.

[14:29:23] But the point is this, members have just become totally tired and frustrated of every time we have a heart-wrenching tragedy in our country from gun violence, the carnage that it produces, whether it's little children six years old in Newtown, whether it's these young people last week in Orlando, whether it's church-goers in Charleston, where - across the country, you name it, it breaks your heart. Those families suffer. They can never really be made whole. We hope to give them some hope that their grief and so many of them who are grieving have turned their grief into action in order to get some gun laws passed.