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Remembering Muhammad Ali Who Died At The Age of 74; Hillary Clinton is Ramping Up Her Attacks on Presumptive Republican Nominee Donald Trump. Aired 1-2p ET

Aired June 4, 2016 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[13:00:00] FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: Larry Sabato, Ron Brownstein, we're going to leave it right there. Thank you so much. We'll talk again.

The next hour of the CNN NEWSROOM starts right now.

Hello, again, thank you so much for joining me in this special hour now as we pay tribute to Muhammad Ali. I'm Fredricka Whitfield.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: And I'm John Berman outside the Muhammad Ali center in Louisville, Kentucky.

WHITFIELD: So John, the world is mourning the loss of this legend, Muhammad Ali has died at the age of 74 after a long battle with Parkinson's disease. He was hospitalized on Thursday with a respiratory issue and passed away overnight. And then this morning, in his hometown of Louisville, where John is, a flag was lowered in honor of the man simply known as the greatest. The mayor honoring the hometown hero's achievements both as a fighter and humanitarian.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MAYOR GREG FISCHER, LOUISVILLE, KENTUCKY: Muhammad Ali lived a life so big and bold, it is hard to believe that any one man could do everything he did. To do all the things he became in the course of just one lifetime. This man, this champion, this Louisvillian, ended his 74 years yesterday as a United Nations messenger of peace, a humanitarian and champion athlete who earned amnesty international's lifetime achievement award, the presidential Medal of Freedom, "Sports Illustrated" sportsman of the century. He was co-founder with his beloved wife, Lonnie, of the Muhammad Ali center which promotes respect, hope, and understanding here in his hometown of Louisville and around the world.

He took he name Mohammed Ali in 1964 and advocated for understanding and peace among people of different faiths. He was, of course, three- time heavyweight champion of the world. A young, handsome fighter with swagger like the world had never seen.

Cassius Marcela Clay Jr., born January 17th, 1942, to Cassius senior and Odessa Grady Clay. Imagine that day. That little boy, eyes wide open looking around the room at the old Louisville general hospital, not knowing the life that awaited him, the life he would make, the world he would shake up and the people he would inspire. And like you, I am absolutely one of those people. Muhammad Ali belongs to the world but he only has one hometown.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: President George W. Bush who presented Ali with the Medal of Freedom in 2005 posted this message on his Facebook page saying quote "Laura and I" are saddened by the death of Muhammad Ali, the greatest of all time. I gave Ali the presidential Medal of Freedom in 2005 and wondered aloud how he stayed so pretty throughout so many fights. It probably had to do with his beautiful soul. He was a fierce fighter and he is a man of peace, just like Odessa and Cassius Clay Senior believed their son could be."

Let's go back now to Louisville, Kentucky, where people continued to stream in and out, kind of dodging those raindrops, Ali's hometown of Louisville. And that's where we find our John Berman -- John.

BERMAN: Thanks so much, Fred.

Yes, the rain has stopped temporarily. You can see people out once again here paying their respects leaving flowers here at the Muhammad Ali center, people of all races and all ages. I met one man, a 62- year-old African-American man who told me he remembers when Muhammad Ali went to his junior high to visit his junior high as heavyweight champ. And he said to me, imagine what that meant to me from Muhammad Ali, the champion on the world came and spoke to my class?

I spoke to another man, a white man, who told me he remembers sitting in his basement watching Muhammad Ali win the Olympic gold medal with his father. But just to give you a sense of the contradictions of the Muhammad Ali, this man's father never forgave him for getting out of serving in the Vietnam War. But this man now and he says, I always loved him.

Almost universally, Muhammad Ali known by most as the greatest Boxer of all time. Just ask him, he would tell you. And you are really not likely to find much to say about those who covered him in the ring.

Joining me now to discuss is Chris Stone, the managing editor of "Sports Illustrated."

Chris, I cannot think of an athlete, let alone a figure for whom more eloquent words have been written over the years. The best writers doing their best writing. What was it about Muhammad Ali that brought out this almost fixation, this interest among the best and the best?

[13:05:21] CHRIS STONE, MANAGING EDITOR, SPORTS ILLUSTRATED: Well, there is a very good reason for that. Has there ever been an athlete who reminded you that sport was so much fun. Yet, at the same time, reminded you that like the rest of the world, it contains a lot of hard, sometimes ugly truths. I mean, the sports world, there is a real nexus between sports and social issues, race, religion, poverty that still are really difficult for us to grapple with today. And yet, Ali, nobody pushed or informed that conversation better than Ali himself. And as a performer, he will go down as one of the most transformed figures ever too.

BERMAN: And he wasn't satisfied, though, just to be an athlete, just to be a Boxer. Again, famously he said, I'm not going to be what you want me to be. I'm going to be what I want to be. And "Sports Illustrated" has chronicled this over the years really since Muhammad Ali was still a teenager fighting as an amateur. What is it? You are now, you are going to come out with a cover, I think it is behind you right now. The new cover of "Sports Illustrated." That's the 40th cover with Muhammad Ali.

STONE: It is the 40th cover. And it is the second most in "Sports Illustrated" history behind Michael Jordan. And this isn't to diminish what Michael Jordan accomplished. But remember this about boxing. With basketball, basketball has a much more continuous schedule. There was a time in 1992 where we ran three consecutive covers of Michael Jordan. Ali was a Boxer. Boxing is not a daily event. It is not a weekly event. It is not a monthly event. And yet, he ended up on the cover 40 times in his career, post career, I might add, as well.

BERMAN: No, it is an amazing thing. Because after he stopped boxing in 1980, 1981, but he certainly did not leave the stage there at all, really almost in the limelight up until the last few years.

You oversaw a big tribute here at the Muhammad Ali center in which "Sports Illustrated" named an award in his honor right here in his hometown of Louisville. What was that like? What was it like to be with him for that?

STONE: I mean, it was a very powerful night because at any point in his life, he has always been the biggest person in the room. And the people who joined us that night included everyone from, you know, old rivals such as Larry Holmes, George Foreman, who once to, you know, his biggest enemy. And they had a very difficult relationship in the '70s and Shaq, who came all the way up from Atlanta to be part of the evening. You know, he has always - you know, his presence -- you are always aware of him in a room, even if you don't see him in a room. And he definitely owned that evening just like he has owned so many before that.

BERMAN: I mean, he owned, you know, several generations, let alone several evenings.

Chris Stone with "Sports Illustrated," standing in front of the new cover of "Sports Illustrated," the 40th with Muhammad Ali on the cover.

Chris, thanks so much. Really appreciate it.

STONE: Sure, John.

BERMAN: As you were saying, you know, Muhammad Ali, he rose to fame as a boxer but his impact so great beyond that. Ali's work in civil rights as an activist. His advocacy for African-Americans around the world, his advocacy for Muslims around the world, his humanitarian effort is how his family would like him to remember. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LALA ALI, DAUGHTER OF MUHAMMAD ALI: I think that just everything my father went through fighting for social justice, all the people that he inspired along the way, you know, and all of the love that he has shown to everybody, no matter what color, race, how much money they had or didn't have. It is just a true example of what human beings should be. And it is just who he is, you know. I think of my dad, I don't think of him as a fighter, and all of his accomplishments in the ring. I think more of who he is, the man outside of the ring.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: Joining me to talk more about this is Julian Zelizer. He is an historian and professor at Princeton University. Also with me, CNN political commentator, Marc Lamont Hill, also a professor.

And gentlemen, let me just start out by saying there are not many athletes for whom I would be speaking with professors about. And that is because Muhammad Ali was much more than just an athlete.

Julian, let me start with you. He is an historical figure of enormous significance dating from 1960 until today.

JULIAN ZELIZER, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Absolutely. During the 1960s, he became a public spokesman for two big issues at the time. The first was obviously the battle for civil rights, which was very outspoken on the conditions that African-Americans faced. And also, he became one of the most prominent protesters of the Vietnam War and gained a lot of attention for some of the arguments that anti-war activists were making about why the country was involved in this.

[13:10:12] BERMAN: You know, Marc, I was thinking about when I first became aware of Muhammad Ali. And I'm pretty sure in my own memory, it was between the Lee on Sphinx fights when he lost the title and then won it again, you know. But for me, you know, I was a white kid in the '70s. And my first exposure to Muhammad Ali was an athlete. I imagine growing up as an African-American in the '70s like you did, he must have played an enormous role.

MARC LAMONT HILL, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Muhammad Ali was my hero. Muhammad Ali was my virtual role model. Muhammad Ali was the person that I looked to as a sign of what was possible, as an athlete, as a citizen, as a Muslim, as this black person. He was so much wrapped into one body. And as everyone has said today, he was so much bigger than an athlete. There was so many great heavyweights. There was so many great boxers. And Muhammad Ali stands above all of them.

But when it comes to the greatest Americans, Muhammad Ali also stands right at the top of that list as well. He was unapologetically black. He was unapologetically Muslim. He was a freedom fighter. And he stood his ground on social issues. And he waited for the world to come to him. He never caved or changed in order to be accepted.

BERMAN: Do you think he gets the credit he deserves, you know, as more than a boxer? As a civil rights figure, Marc? HILL: I think he is beginning to. I think we are beginning to fully

appreciate who and what he was. It is sometimes unfortunately not until death, we fully appreciate how significant a figure someone is. In 1967, Muhammad Ali was in a state. In 1996, he is lighting the Olympic torch. Not because he change who he was, but because the world came to understand what he was saying and doing was right and exact. That type of change only happens on time. So I think we are beginning to fully appreciate who Muhammad Ali is.

BERMAN: You know, Julian, I think today when he is universally adored, it is easy to forget what role he played in the '60s when there were many who were appalled at what he did. I spoke to a man here just a few minutes ago who was here to honor Muhammad Ali and loves him. But he says his father in the '60s never forgave then Cassius Clay for changing his name to Cassius that became Muhammad Ali for standing up against the Vietnam War. Just how divisive were those positions at the time?

ZELIZER: Incredibly divisive. I mean, today we often talk about celebrities and athletes who get involved in politics and make statements. But there are very few who did what he did. He really took very controversial stands. Everything he did was polarizing. When he refused to go to the Vietnam War, he didn't just refuse to fight but he made statement which were very powerful about raising questions about why an African-American should fight abroad given the situation here in the United States. Many Americans didn't like him.

So I think, you know, part of the time this is going to take to give him his full due is because he was so controversial. And that was because he was so bold. And in many ways, ahead of his time.

BERMAN: You know, he had a hard time reading. He, you know, he essentially got under repeat in high school. Yet, Marc Lamont Hill, doing those three-and-a-half year where he sacrificed his title, where he gave up his peak earning years. And you know, Lord knows how many fight. He would go to college campuses and debate college kids about Islam, about his opposition to the Vietnam War. You know, he wouldn't back down for anybody.

HILL: Absolutely. And that's because he was well-trained and well- taught. Muhammad Ali like many people in the 1960s was awakened and educated by the honorable large Muhammad in the nation of Islam. He was prepared to do this, (INAUDIBLE). Someone who had a prison education, not a Princeton education, was prepared to stand amongst giants because of the lessons of the messenger. And so, he was able to do that. And at some point, his education didn't matter. His background didn't matter. None of those things matter. What matters was that Muhammad Ali had risen to the level of an extraordinary human being, an extraordinary fighter, an extraordinary Black Muslim who was able to stand back against American imperialist, racism and say that narrative of love and justice for everybody. That's something that he stood for to the very (INAUDIBLE).

BERMAN: And again, I'm here at the Muhammad Ali center. And the motto here is be great and do great things. Very, very fitting when you are talking about Muhammad Ali. Professors, Julian Zelizer and Marc Lamont Hill, thanks for being with

us.

Louisville, Kentucky where I am right now is, of course, where Muhammad Ali was born. It is the Muhammad Ali Center. It is sort of home-based for all things Muhammad Ali. That is not where he passed away. He passed away in Scottsdale, Arizona overnight. That's where we find CNN's Jason Carroll live in Scottsdale.

We are expecting to hear from Muhammad Ali's family shortly, Jason.

JASON CARROLL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, expecting to hear from them within the hour, John. And at that point, we will get more details about the funeral plans, more details about who will be attending and, hopefully, John will be able to get some more details about his final moments.

You know, when I think about Muhammad Ali, I think of that quote from F. Scott Fitzgerald which basically went something like this. There are no second acts in American lives. But Muhammad Ali proves that very, very wrong. Not only did he have a second act and a third act and a fourth act. He was so many different things to so many different people, the Olympian. You know, at one point, you know, the underdog, he was called the underdog back in 1964 when he took on Sonny Liston. No one thought he would win that fight but he did. You know, he was the civil rights leader, the conscientious objective, the villain at one point, the hero to many others. But he was also a father. And I knew and still know one of his daughters, Mariam Ali. I have known her for many, many years. She goes by the name Meme (ph). We used to talk about her dad a lot. Talk about him all the time. Some of the things I think about is she talks about a lot of people don't know when she was a little girl, she remembered, you know, after a fight what Muhammad Ali like to do was drive around a car, get into the urban centers and interact with people.

And one time in Philadelphia, John, they were in the car and two boys were fighting out in the street, you know, fighting very, very hard. Fighting against each other. He pulled over the car. She said, daddy, don't get out of the car. He got out of the car and broke up the fight. He said, you brothers shouldn't be fighting against each other. You should be loving each other. This is who this man was to her. This was her father.

Some of the other moments back in the '80s, I remember she was telling me a story about, he came to her and said, honey, I'm going to come out of retirement. I'm going to start fighting again. And she said, daddy, no, you are too old. And she laughed about that when she told me that story.

And one of the greatest moments a lot of people remember, 1996, when he carried that Olympic torch. And May-May and I talked about that. And she said she was joking. She said she knew that his hand was shaking. And that, you know, they joked, we hope he can light the torch and not burn down something else. And so she was able to laugh about that. But she also said something that really struck me. She said that at

one point her father said, because he had been out of the limelight, John, for so long. He said, honey, do you think people will remember me? And I think that is so poignant because he would be so proud to see the tributes that are coming in.

And just very quickly, she sent me an email, John, not too long ago this morning. And I just want to read very quickly which she had to say to me this morning. She said, Jason, I am happy my father no longer struggles. He is in a better place. God is the greatest - John.

[13:17:32] BERMAN: Do you think people remember me? That's what Muhammad Ali asked. And Jason, you brought up the Olympic torch ceremony in Atlanta in 1996 when he lifted up that torch, you know, he really lifted up the world.

Jason Carroll in Scottsdale, thanks so much. Terrific reporting.

I want to go back to Fredricka Whitfield now in Atlanta -- Fred.

WHITFIELD: So beautiful tributes and beautiful stories.

Thank you so much, John and Jason.

Up next, my conversation with fellow boxing great, George Foreman on his good friend, Muhammad Ali.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: After you get out of the ring with him and you look at him, everybody falls in love with him. You can't help it. He was one loveable, good-looking, great guy. And he wanted to be around him. I was excited to meet him and happy to be his friend.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[13:21:30] WHITFIELD: Muhammad Ali is being mourned and remembered around the world. And those that knew him best are sharing their stories, including boxing legend, George Foreman, heavyweight champion himself who famously fought Ali in one of the most legendary about of all time, the rumble in the jungle in 1974. I spoke with Foreman earlier who shared his first memory of "the greatest."

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

GEORGE FOREMAN, FORMER HEAVYWEIGHT BOXING CHAMPION (on the phone): I met him myself down the street in New York City. He was walking down the street with just a pair of slacks on. And I said, man, he is beautiful. So after you get out of the ring with him and look at him, everybody falls in love with him. You can't help it. He was one loveable, good-looking, great guy. And you wanted to be around him. I was excited to meet him and happy to be his friend. WHITFIELD: So that was just start of your relationship after Zaire.

But then what about before that? When, you know, the expectations were built that it was going to be George Foreman against Muhammad Ali in the ring. What did you think about Muhammad Ali, the boxer, the man, before you got in the ring with him?

FOREMAN: Didn't think too much as a man. But he was one celebrity I had seen on television, the first guy on the news, saying he was the greatest. I'm beautiful. I have never seen anything like that. It was a phenomenon. And the guy put on a show everywhere. But I have beaten a guy who had given him trouble. I was certain I was going to knock him out. I didn't have any respect for him as a boxer at all. But let me tell you, after that Zaire episode, too much respect.

WHITFIELD: And then what did you - what was your impressions of him as that young man who said I will not go to war to Vietnam. I will not go to kill who had to put his entire boxing career on hold. He was forced to do that for at least three years until the U.S. Supreme Court stepped in and allowed him to box again. What were your impressions of this young man and, you know, and the courage that it took for him to do that? But at the time, people weren't using the word courageous.

FOREMAN: You know, surprisingly, I remember the day that he resisted the draft and everybody turned on him. I mean, literally everyone. I hadn't even gone into boxing yet. Everyone, no one wanted to be in his presence. No one wanted to be his friend. And he was dropped. He still made himself available. He travelled around the country. He loved to be in the media. Love, but nobody wanted to even put him on television.

I was once doing an interview in Miami, Florida. He came into the gym. And they turned the cameras off because they were interviewing me for my fight. They turned the cameras off until he got out of the way. That's what happened to Muhammad Ali. And of course, he had a second chance to come back. And, boy, the greatest show on earth. He was the greatest show.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WHITFIELD: A sentiment there from heavyweight champ, George Foreman. And of course, people from all over the world have been talking about Muhammad Ali and how he left such an impression on them. In the book "Soul of a Butterfly," Ali described exactly how he wanted to be remembered, writing this.

I would like to be remembered as a man who won the heavyweight title three times, who was humorous and who treated everyone right, as a man who never looked down on those who locked up to him and who helped as many people as he could, as a man who stood up for his beliefs no matter what as a man who tried to unite all human kind through faith and love. And if that was too much, then I guess I would settle for being remembered only as a great boxer who became a leader and champion of his people. And I wouldn't even mind if folks forgot how pretty I was. Muhammad Ali.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[13:29:24] WHITFIELD: His accomplishment inside and outside the ring perhaps too many to count. Three time heavyweight champion, Muhammad Ali was named 1974 "Sports Illustrated," sports person of the year appearing on the magazine's cover now 40 different times. He was also recipient of the Arthur Ashe courage award just to name a few.

And this Friday, June 10th, Ali was set to receive the 2016 Jesse Owens global award for peace. Lots of folks were looking forward to him being there to receive it in person.

Joining me right now among them, Rodney Williams, chairman of the international athletic association. Jesse Owens athletic trophy and global award for peace.

Good to see you. Thanks so much for being with me.

[13:30:09] RODNEY WILLIAMS, CHAIRMAN, INTERNATIONAL ATHLETIC ASSOCIATION: My honor. Thank you for having us, Fredricka.

WHITFIELD: So I know you and so many were looking forward to Muhammad Ali accepting this global peace award on Friday. So when you learned that he was ill, what, four days ago, he was taken to the hospital, was there still a feeling that he was going to be all right, that he was going to be able to be there in Arizona for this ceremony.

WILLIAMS: Very much so. We certainly had our fingers crossed for a quick recovery. The plan was to bestow the Jesse Owens global peace award to Muhammad Ali this Friday and videotape it. And of course, we are going to have the gala in the fall here in New York City. I'm very excited about that.

WHITFIELD: You were planning on being at his home for that moment.

WILLIAMS: Yes. We were heading down to Louisville, Kentucky to actually do the ceremony with Muhammad Ali and, of course, his wife, Lonnie.

WHITFIELD: And so now, help us understand what, you know, the international athletic association saw in Muhammad Ali and why it was fitting that he would be receiving this global award.

WILLIAMS: Yes. You know, the IAA global award for peace is really designed for someone who has been committed to sports in a meaningful way, but really used it as a platform, for driving peace. And Muhammad Ali, as so many of your guests have previously stated eloquently, including George Foreman, meant so much in terms of being a real symbol for empowerment, I think, for many people and a sense of equality and justice. And used the platform of sports to really push that forward.

So we were very excited to bestow this award on him. Some of the previous winners have been Nelson Mandela, former president of South Africa, (INAUDIBLE) and the former secretary general of the United Nations, George Herbert Walker Bush. And we certainly see Muhammad Ali in that same pantheon. And you know, Fredricka, I thought it was interesting in the earlier

segments, it was mentioned that Mr. Ali was hoping that his legacy would be remembered. Because if you look at the 20th century, you could probably say Jesse Owens was the greatest athlete for the first half of the 20th century. And certainly, Muhammad Ali was in the second half. And if you can compare and contrast the two, there are some huge similarities, but important differences.

I mean, they were similar in that they were both athletic protegees. You know, we heard the story about Muhammad Ali as having his bike stolen at age 12 and he is learning to box. Well, and Jesse Owens was just this phenomenal schoolyard track kid, who was spotted and then developed through coaching. And I think they both had athletic achievements that really made them aspirational leaders. I mean, besides what Owens did in '36 in the Berlin Olympics of winning four gold medals in front of Hitler, and the big ten championships in 1935, he set three world records and tied to four in 45 minutes. It has never been done before or since.

WHITFIELD: Incredible parallels of these two extraordinary lives, these American icons.

WILLIAMS: Yes.

WHITFIELD: Go ahead.

WILLIAMS: Well, I was going to say that I think the important difference is that where Jesse Owens also suffered from bigotry. I mean, he was not given the (INAUDIBLE) award, which goes to the greatest amateur athlete after the 36 Olympics. He was not welcomed to the White House. He didn't receive a phone call from the president. He maintained a level of graciousness, I think, and over time earned respect but was not -- was in a very different , era, I would say, from Muhammad Ali, who certainly, through his conscientious objection to the Vietnam War and the sacrifices he made at the peak of his career came a symbol for self-determination.

WHITFIELD: Incredible.

WILLIAMS: Yes. Just evolved the whole icon of what it is to be a sports leader to an entirely different level.

[13:35:00] WILLIAMS: Well, Rodney Williams of the International Athletic Association, thank you so much. And posthumously now, Muhammad Ali is still receiving this very well deserve Jesse Owens global award for peace. Thank you so much for your reflections on the great, the greatest of all time, Muhammad Ali.

All right. Up next, a different perspective of Muhammad Ali from someone who knew him well, civil rights leader, Reverend Jesse Jackson, joining us live with his personal memories of the boxing legend.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[13:38:42] BERMAN: Welcome back, John Berman here outside the Muhammad Ali center in Louisville, Kentucky where all morning strums of people have been coming here to pay they respects to hometown hero, Muhammad Ali, who died overnight at the age 74. You can see people leaving flowers here, writing their own personal remembrance. And so many of the people we have seen have moments they tell us when they remember meeting Muhammad Ali. They can tell us stories of what he said to them. He meant so much to so many people. Obviously, an international superstar, an important figure in the world of sports. But, also, beyond that. A key activist inside the civil rights movement and an ambassador for peace in his later years.

Joining me now is someone who knew Muhammad Ali. Reverend Jesse Jackson joins us now from Chicago.

Reverend, thanks so much for being with us. I'm just curious. When is the first time you met Muhammad Ali.

REV. JESSE JACKSON, CIVIL RIGHTS ACTIVIST: Back in the '60s. He was, of course, he spent a lot of time in Chicago. He fought in Chicago. His religious conversion took place in Chicago and he had a home here in Chicago and on the south shores. So we spent a lot of time together, even more time when he was in exile. I would say that what makes so different was a champion inside the ring but a social transformer beyond the ring. He took his celebrity and used it to illuminate the darkness.

[13:40:07] BERMAN: Can you measure his impact in the civil rights movement, as you said, during his years in exile when he gave up his heavyweight championship for three-and-a-years because he refused to fight in Vietnam.

JACKSON: Well, first of all, in 1960, America was as much a part in South Africa. He couldn't use a hotel or motel for park. He couldn't buy a hamburger. He was a billionaire but couldn't use a local hotel. He could not use a local library. This is -- he had the right to vote. He faced legal, cultural segregation in the south. And this was three years before Mandela went to jail. So he was very much a victim of the limitations and the pain imposed biracial segregation. So it is often said that he was controversial.

I say he was not controversial. He was maladjusted. What was controversial was the man can use a toilet. What was controversial is a soldier had to sit down (INAUDIBLE) American military basis. Controversial was that (INAUDIBLE). He was not controversial. He was maladjusted. He fought back. That's why he identified so much with Dr. King and struggled to make America better.

BERMAN: He was controversial to those who observed him and were surprised, I supposed, that someone who was seen as an athlete in a traditional athlete's role decided to take his thoughts, his actions and his movement beyond the world of sports and to take a stand. How did his role change over the years?

JACKSON: Well, to some extent, you know, he identified, he appreciated the role of Joe Lewis, who (INAUDIBLE) was embraced by America but even Jack Johnson, who was a hero, who was a defined hero, and at the height of lynching, Jack Zonta knocked out white guys. That was a huge (INAUDIBLE). He married a white woman. They would ride down the streets in his convertible car. He chose to be free. He identified with the finest factor in Jack Johnson a whole lot.

America is better now because he identified so much with the struggle to bring down various to make all apartide illegal, to mane all Americans have the right to vote. When he stood with us, I remember the last April 4th, 1967, the day Dr. King gave the speech in New York that night about the anti-Vietnam War. He and Jim Brown spent much of that day along with Dr. King and young in the motel room in New York while he was against the war in Vietnam. But he made the most money as a boxer and lost the most money, because of his stand. I mean, it is one thing to be a marcher at a symbolic rally. He lost all of his wealth and stuff. He almost became a pauper, giving little speeches because he gave it all up for his president. That made him a very, very different guy.

BERMAN: He was willing to give up everything for what he believed in.

Reverend, when was the last time you spoke to Muhammad Ali?

JACKSON: A few months ago. He had this annual event in Louisville. My son, Usef, spends a lot of time with Ali. He had this annual event raising funds for his foundation for the museum in Louisville. And we spent a lot of time together during that season. He was always so accessible to us. When I think of him, I think of the context of his times fighting back. I think his sense of defines and his championships in the ring. He was so good in the ring, you almost forget they are talking social transformation, the time when we were considered to be inferior by law and culture. He refused to accept that status in life. And in the end, he went from being revived to being revered.

We love mothers, those who can't talk and those who are dead. But we reject marchers and protesters. He was a marching protester went from being reviled to being revealed from all of America to all of the world. And that he lived to see the fruits of his labors come to bear.

BERMAN: Finally, reverend, just what did he mean to you personally?

JACKSON: A source of inspiration. You know, even now when athlete are celebrating and doing dances in the end zone, all that kind of staff, Ali was free to express himself. It was that expression you see and they will shoot the ball and do what they do with the celebration of gymnastics. That's all because of Ali.

And when we were marching, remember, Dr. King went to jail and he was arrested and jailed in Birmingham. Harry Bellefonte stood up and helped raise the money to get him free. Most artists benefited from the struggle but kind of laid back. Most athletes saw short-term careers, they laid it back. But Bellefonte stood up and Ali stood up. And those that stood up deserve special applause and Dr. King would say a special around of appreciation in heaven for their works. And he was supposed to use his superior platform, (INAUDIBLE) just to make all of us better and better off. He made us more free for the fight and more determined. We love him so much. And I miss him already. [13:45:00] BERMAN: President Barack Obama said he shook up the world

and the world is better for it.

Reverend Jesse Jackson, thank you so much. Really appreciate you being with us today to share your personal memories of Muhammad Ali.

JACKSON: Thank you.

BERMAN: Thank you, Reverend.

I'm John Berman in Louisville. We are going to have much more on the death of Muhammad Ali passing away overnight at the age of 74 coming up. We will be right back.

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[13:49:20] WHITFIELD: All right. With the California primary just three days away, Hillary Clinton is ramping up her attacks on presumptive Republican nominee Donald Trump at a rally in San Bernardino yesterday. She went as far to say quote "we are trying to elect a president, not a dictator," end quote.

Following that rally, she continued her critique with her own Jake Tapper.

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HILLARY CLINTON (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Well, I think the speech yesterday was really an attempt to present to the American people everything he has said, what he has proposed that he would do, which violates Republican and Democratic agreement about how to be strong in the world, how to present ourselves, how to protect our allies and our friends, how to take on our rivals where necessary. And I'm happy to my record up against his, you know, comments, his rants, and his outright lies any time.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN CHIEF WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: There was some really ugly images on the TV screens yesterday. Some really reprehensible assaults, attacks by anti-Trump protesters against people who support Donald Trump. Do you condemn the violence? What is your message to people who are protesting Donald Trump?

CLINTON: I condemn all violence in our political arena. I condemned it when Donald Trump was inciting it, and congratulating people who were engaging in it. I condemn it by those who are taking violent protests to physical assault against Donald Trump. This has to end. He set a very bad example. He created an environment in which it seemed to be acceptable for someone running for president to be inciting violence, to be encouraging his supporters. Now we're seeing people who are against him responding in kind. It should all stop. The police have a hard enough job trying to make sure that we're able to gather and talk about the issues facing our country. And Trump has lowered the bar. And now is it a surprise that the people who don't like him are stepping over that low bar? I don't think it is. He needs to condemn all violence by everyone. I already have. I will continue to do so. (END VIDEOTAPE)

[13:51:35] WHITFIELD: Less than 72 hours until the polls open in California. Can Bernie Sanders pull out a win? Can Hillary Clinton clench the nomination? Well, next our political experts weigh in.

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[13:54:245] WHITFIELD: All right. Just before the break, we heard Hillary Clinton laying out her record with CNN Jake Tapper where she challenged Donald Trump's rhetoric saying he should condemn violence outside his rallies. She also questioned his ultimate plans for the White House.

Let's bring in CNN political commentator Ryan Lizza.

Ryan, good to see you. So last night, she even suggested that Trump, you know, wants to become a dictator. Talk to me about the kind of political tight rope that Hillary Clinton may even, you know, be treading as she does criticize Donald Trump, at the same time, you know, she's got a lot of Bernie Sanders supporters who say, you know, it's Bernie or no one. So how does she do this?

[13:55:09] RYAN LIZZA, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes, a very confusing period for her. She has got this two front war, right. She is trying to take on Trump in a way, frankly, that nobody else has. In other words, she is trying to figure out how you actually compete against Donald Trump in a way that none of his Republican rivals, of course, never figured out.

And at the same time, she is finishing out the primaries and sort of limping across the finish line especially if she loses California on Tuesday. So the two people -- the two groups of people, as a journalist, the two groups of people that I encounter the most anti- Hillary are, of course, Trump voters and Sanders voters. And sometimes it's equal. And so, she is dealing with those two dynamics.

On her speech this week in her general case against Trump, you know, she is gone from laying out a slightly more traditional Democratic case against the Republican. You know that she is for the rich and not the average person to a much sharper, frankly, more scarier arguments that Trump is, you know, unstable and would be a threat to our democracy. That's where the dictator phrase comes from. And that has cheered a lot of her supporters. But a lot of them, that's where she needed to go.

On the foreign policy side, the advantage she had there is that a lot of Republicans look at Mitt Romney and look at Marco Rubio during the primaries, agree with her more than Trump on some of the big foreign policy questions.

WHITFIELD: All right. We're going leave it there. Ryan Lizza, thank you so much. Good to see you. Appreciate it.

LIZZA: Thanks, Fred. WHITFIELD: All right. A big day on "STATE OF THE UNION" tomorrow.

Donald Trump, Hillary Clinton, and Bernie Sanders all and it is starting tomorrow at 9:00 a.m.

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