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Clinton Mocks Trump; One-Year Anniversary of Texas Biker Shootout Sees New Information; Rising Oil Prices Driving Up Airline Fuel Costs; TSA Works to Reduce Wait Times. Aired 10:30-11a

Aired May 17, 2016 - 10:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[10:30:50]

CAROL COSTELLO, CNN HOST: And good morning, I'm Carol Costello. Thank you so much for joining me. Hillary Clinton turning her attention to the general election, and taking a stab at her own Donald Trump impression.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HILLARY CLINTON (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: And when you finally get into a debate and you're asked, "well what is your plan?" -- to make sure we have enough good jobs with rising incomes, because Americans deserve a raise. And if one answer is, "I'm gonna do it. I know how to do it. I'll get it done. But I'm not gonna tell you what I'm gonna do." You know, I kind of think a lot of folks; Republicans, Democrats, Independents -- a lot of folks are going to be thinking, "what is he talking about?"

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: But will giving Trump a taste of his own medicine backfire? With me now to talk about that, Charles Blow, who's a New York Times columnist, and a CNN contributor. And Ed Lee is the Executive Director of debate at Emory University. Welcome, gentlemen.

ED LEE, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF DEBATE, EMORY UNIVERSITY: Thank you for having me, (Toola).

COSTELLO: Thanks for being here. So Ed, is Clinton right when she says she'll clean Donald Trump's clock on that debate stage?

LEE: Well I think that the way in which we probably want to process this is to think about it as a long game. That she's ultimately, I think, trying to establish a cultural mean, where when he attacks her personality, ultimately we start to think that he has no policies -- in order to institute that when he says "Crooked Hillary," the audience actually think Donald Trump has no policies. And no one will be shocked when this debate breaks down to Hillary Clinton talking about policies and Donald Trump is talking about personalities. And she's trying to structure the way in which we understand each side of that equation.

COSTELLO: Interesting. But Charles, I read your column the other day. You paint a grim picture for Hillary Clinton. You say fighting Trump with facts and plans don't matter. Why?

CHARLES BLOW, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well it doesn't matter to some people, right? So there are people -- with any, with any candidate, there are hardcore supporters, there are soft supporters, and then what you don't want to have is the people who say, "I could never." Right?

So among the hardcore supporters it's really not going to matter. What the research has shown, and which I was quoting in the piece -- in from 2005-2006, University of Michigan -- was that when you confronted highly partisan people with facts about misinformation, it didn't actually change their minds, it actually hardened their positions in their beliefs, right?

But those facts can help for people who are kind of on the softer side. These are the people who are more likely to be kind of, undecided or late deciders or what have you. So yes, you can have some effect there. The idea, however, of fighting Trump on his own ground, it's like throwing Brer Rabbit into the briar patch, right? He wants you to do that.

If you go into his zone of comfort, which is to go as low as you can go, to be as debased as you can be, and to have a debate on those grounds, then I do believe that you lose. Conversely, as it related to debate, you can overplay your hand the way that Gore did with George W. Bush, the way that, I think that George -- Vice President Biden did with Sarah Palin. Because the other person, there are so low expectations for the other person to perform well on policy, you know you have the upper hand, and you overplay that upper hand to such a degree that it comes off a little bit school marmish. Rather than coming off as polished and professional, and a person who is versed on policies.

So it's ...

COSTELLO: I hear you.

BLOW: ... really a tricky thing.

COSTELLO: It is a tricky thing. And this is just an example of why it might be tricky, Ed. This is a trump from Donald Trump, because you know we're debating in real time these days. So if Hillary Clinton stands on that stage and presents her economic plan, Donald Trump could respond like he did in this tweet; "Crooked Hillary said her husband is going to be in charge of the economy. If so, he should run, not her. Will he bring the Energizer to D.C.?"

So see he'll just (tilt) -- he won't come back, for example, with his own plan. He'll just say, "you know what? You just said your husband knew how to handle the economy, and you were going to put him in charge. So what do you know?"

[10:35:10]

LEE: Yes, I think that Charles Blow is absolutely correct on sort of, the way in which he's framed this conversation. But when we think about policy, we also need to understand that he has also issued a set of policy suggestions that have potentially alienated some of our allies, that are also -- some people have interpreted as violations of civil liberties. So the ways in which he can have conversations about policies aren't just from a policy wantist perspective of talking about the economy. But also attempting to frame the way in which we understand, as a public, what his policies are, and what are the negative consequences those hold.

So I don't think that it is just, sort of her positing (the) control over a particular set of esoteric numbers or policy suggestions. But framing the way we understand what actions he has proposed, and that that's a productive way to enter into this conversation for her.

COSTELLO: I know one thing for sure, Charles, that people will be eager to watch the first debate between -- you know, if the nominee's going to be Hillary Clinton -- and Donald Trump. Because everybody keeps saying this is going to be such a nasty campaign, and it's bound to be nasty on stage. But will it get nasty on stage, do you think, when all is said and done?

BLOW: Well I mean, there's the other -- the other ingredient there is obviously moderators. And they can push, you know? So you've seen debates where they let them kind of wander off onto their own, and there have been debates where people have kind of pushed an agitation. And you'll probably get some of both, depending on who's moderating.

I don't know if it will descend to what we see now on Twitter or what we see on the campaign trails, or what we even see what the kind of commercials already that the PACs are producing. I don't think it'll descend to that. I think there'll probably be a few character swipes. But in general, I've kind of watched Trump in the other debates. He's not that confrontational in those debates. He is a bit more -- he's defensive, but he's not that confrontational. It's almost as if he's waiting for them to be over so he can get back to Twitter where he really wants to have fun. So ...

COSTELLO: The only thing is, it's down to two people. He doesn't have the cover of 16 people ...

BLOW: Yes, but it does ... I ... it wasn't cover. It wasn't cover. He was (setting) center stage, and there were debates where every single person on the stage was firing at him, in his direction. So it didn't matter if it was one person or three people on the stage, or 16. They were firing at him, and basically, his strategy -- on stage, at least -- was kind of duck and cover, and to say, "no, no, no, no, no, no." And he would wait and get offstage and go on to go to Twitter, or go onto his campaign stages where he was alone. And he would do his attacking there.

COSTELLO: Well ...

LEE: I do think that the danger for Hillary Clinton is to get sucked into the question of ad hominem attacks and personal debates about character. And that this was Marco Rubio that ultimately, his demise was attempting to play the game that Donald Trump established, and is perfect at playing. And so what she needs to do is figure out how does she establish her personality, some control over the debate space that she's participating in without getting sucked into a question of -- what the characteristics are, who her husband is -- are the ways in which personality plays and informs these particular choices that we're making.

BLOW: Yes, yes. But I would say Marco was the kid at the grown-up table. Hillary Clinton is a grown-up, right? So Hillary Clinton has been -- this is not her first time at the rodeo. She has been attacked -- she's right about this point, she makes this point very often. I'm betting she's been attacked for 30 years. She knows how to deal with that. And one really great example of that was the Benghazi hearings, where she showed up in person, stated that what -- I don't know whether it was, 12, 14, whatever it was, 12, 14 hours, whatever it was ...

COSTELLO: Yes.

BLOW: ... And you saw how savvy she could be, being under attack, being grilled, learning how to play with that a little bit to make -- you have humorous moments ...

COSTELLO: M-hm.

BLOW: ... you have serious moments, to outwit people, to kind of have more facts than the person who was attacking her had. You see there's a talent there because she is experienced at being attacked.

COSTELLO: OK, I've got to leave it there. All I can say is it's going to be interesting. Charles Blow, Ed Lee, thanks to you both.

LEE: Thank you for having me.

COSTELLO: And still to come in the Newsroom, a year after a biker shootout in Texas, we're learning more about what went down that day.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:43:55]

COSTELLO: It looks like an Old West shootout right in the middle of a Texas restaurant. It happened a year ago today when two rival biker gangs started fighting. When the shooting stopped, nine people were dead, nearly 20 others wounded, 200 people were placed under arrest. But the big question out there is, why did this happen at all? We're finally getting answers thanks to CNN's fine reporting and Ed Lavandera. He joins me now. It's just a fascinating look, it really is a great story.

ED LAVANDERA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, and we've got the new images and video angles from the fight that really kind of help explain what happened and how the fight started. And we heard from two rival bikers that were in the center of the melee.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

LAVANDERA (voice-over): By 11:00 a.m., Cossacks bikers are sipping beers and shooting the breeze, seen here in surveillance video obtained by CNN. Outside the restaurant, police dashcams capture the scene in the parking lot as a line of Bandidos bikers roll up.

JAKE (CARAZEL), BANDIDOS CLUB MEMBER: I was the first one to pull in there ...

LAVANDERA (voice-over): Including Jake (Carazel) who was riding in with his dad and uncle, and looking for a place to park.

(CARAZEL): As we turned in the bike parking, I see 50, 60, 70 Cossacks there. You know, it caught me off guard. As soon as we pulled up I backed in and they were surrounding my bike.

LAVANDERA (voice-over): John Wilson, the President of the Cossacks Waco chapter, was sitting on the Twin Peaks patio with his son.

JOHN WILSON, PRESIDENT, COSSACKS WACO CHAPTER: The lead guy -- I looked out, I was watching -- he deliberately steered into one of our prospects and hit him. You know, I mean, he wasn't going real fast, but he deliberately ran into him with a motorcycle. Enough to, you know, knock him down.

LAVANDERA (voice-over): (Carazel) says, "not quite."

(CARAZEL): I didn't run over anyone's foot. I think they've come up with different scenarios to try and justify what happened.

LAVANDERA: And what was that mission?

(CARAZEL): I know without a doubt, they were there to confront us.

LAVANDERA (voice-over): Clifford Pearce, the prospect assigned to guard the Cossacks bikes in the lot, is caught in the middle.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CLIFFORD PEARCE, PROSPECT, COSSACKS WACO CHAPTER: Anyhow, a bunch of squabbling went on about them blocking the bikes in.

LAVANDERA (voice-over): That's Pearce talking to investigators.

INVESTIGATOR: You got your foot run over?

PEARCE: Actually I didn't get my foot run over but I was in the way out there. I didn't get out of the way fast enough.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WILSON: It wasn't really a fight at that point. It was just a -- you know, (some) shouting back and forth and verbal altercation.

LAVANDERA (voice-over): As the shouting match quickly escalates, you see (Carazel) with a yellow helmet, right here in the middle of it. He says a Cossack threw the first punch.

(CARAZEL): We were hit so quick that I didn't even have time to take my gloves off, or my helmet.

LAVANDERA (voice-over): Fists are flying. Then far worse.

PEARCE (voice-over): I heard a gunshot, so I just hit the dirt.

(CARAZEL): I remember yelling for my dad (because) I knew he was there somewhere. I've never been that scared in my life.

LAVANDERA (voice-over): (Carazel) is taken to the ground, he's in an all-out brawl with several Cossacks. He doesn't realize it then, but you can see a biker emerging from the chaos, pointing a gun and looking for a target. But suddenly, the biker's head snaps back and he drops to the ground.

LAVANDERA: You hear the shots whizzing by?

(CARAZEL): I hear the shots going off, whizzing by me.

LAVANDERA (voice-over): He stumbles and looks for cover as another biker takes aim.

LAVANDERA: You actually see four plumes of smoke come (at it) from him. And he's pointed right at you.

(CARAZEL): Oh yes, yes, yes. Boom, boom, boom, boom.

LAVANDERA: And then you fall to the ground. You didn't get hit?

(CARAZEL): No, looks like a cop may have taken him out and (thank God) ...

LAVANDERA: He dropped (right after) he fired four times.

(CARAZEL): Yes.

LAVANDERA: Wow.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

[10:47:40]

COSTELLO: So it sounds like some very small infraction happened and then it just went out of control.

LAVANDERA: Yes, we heard from one of the Cossacks bikers later in the show. And asked him, you know, what was all this about? What did your brothers, your club members, die for? And he simply said, "pride, stupidity." You know, I think a lot of people still kind of scratching their heads how something -- obviously there was a lot, kind of building up to that day. But it was -- you know, you look at it and you wonder, it was like, there -- were they going to fight about just anything? Like it did -- it was a ...

COSTELLO: It didn't matter, right?

LAVANDERA: Yes, it didn't matter. Almost like -- you almost get the sense like it didn't matter. There was going to be a fight that day, whether it be about parking spaces or about someone drank their beer that morning.

COSTELLO: OK so people are under indictment, when will they go to court?

LAVANDERA: Well that's the big question, exactly a year ago, 154 of them have been indicted, awaiting trial. They're all out of jail on bond. But they don't know when they're going to go to trial, and if they're going to go to trial. There are a number of defense lawyers who believe that none of these cases will ever see the inside of a Waco courtroom. We'll see, prosecutors aren't talking.

COSTELLO: Ed Lavandera, thanks so much. Still to come in the Newsroom, are you taking a flight today? Well make sure you plan on arriving early, and I mean really, really eary -- early, that is. I'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:53:00]

COSTELLO: As the price of oil rises, so does the cost of jet fuel and guess what that might mean? Higher airfares. Delta airlines is delaying expansion plans and says it may have to be the first airline to raise ticket prices. Fuel prices are still lower than they were a year ago, but they've gone up 60 percent from their lowest point earlier this year. If higher ticket prices don't tick you off, maybe this will; longer lines. Both Chicago's O'Hare Airport and the TSA telling passengers to arrive three hours early. Passengers across the country have been complaining about security wait times for months. CNN's Rene Marsh has more for you.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

RENE MARSH, CNN AVIATION AND GOVERNMENT REGULATION CORRESPONDENT: Well TSA heard the call from passengers, airlines, and airports; they must do better. This summer air travel is expected to rise to the highest level ever with 222 million people expected to fly.

Now we're not even at that peak travel season yet and for months, flyers have been dealing with long security lines and missed flights because of it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN: We were just in security for almost two hours and ran to our gate and it was three minutes shy of the door closing. So we got a hotel and are back and hopefully we'll make this flight.

UNIDENTIFIED MAN: I got here about three, two-and-a-half hours early and it still wasn't enough time. And I had to go back to my friend's place and try it again this morning.

(END VIDEO CLIP) MARSH: TSA immediately increased overtime for its officers last week. And they are speeding up their hiring process for 768 officers, to get them on the job by June 15th. But the union representing TSA officers say that won't be enough. 6,000 new hires are needed. They're also deploying bomb-sniffing dogs as a part of a way to cut the wait times.

Now things will not get better overnight, but the goal is to start getting passengers through those security checkpoints faster, at least by June. In the meantime some airports like San Diego International have hired entertainment to destress passengers while they wait. Including stilt walkers, jugglers, and clowns. I guess they figure if you're going to be waiting in line for an hour or more, why not be entertained? Back to you.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COSTELLO: Clowns. Rene Marsh, thanks. Coming up at this hour -- coming up on AT THIS HOUR with Berman and Bolduan, the head of the pro-Clinton super PAC behind a new ad attacking Donald Trump.

Thanks for joining me today, I'm Carol Costello. AT THIS HOUR after a break.

[10:55:40]