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Trump, Biden Attend Same Ceremony in Philly; Republicans Recruiting for Third-Party Candidate?; 10 Killed in ISIS Attack on Baghdad Gas Plant; Juarez, Mexico Residents Struggle to Fix Violent Image; Former Trump Protege Speaks Out; Donald Trump, the Flip- Flopper?; Pope Francis Calls for Study of Female Deacons; Aired 5-6p ET

Aired May 15, 2016 - 17:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[17:00:00] ANA CABRERA, CNN ANCHOR: Exasperated Republicans are actively searching for an independent willing to challenge Trump. The only problem, no potential candidates are saying yes. Those in the no thanks box include billionaire and Dallas Mavericks owner Mark Cuban. He is now saying he was recruited to run but he believes it's too late. He tells CNN this, quote, "I think the time is right for a technology literate entrepreneur to run for president. The issue for any such candidate is that the process is broken. It's a circus rather than a learning process for all involved," end quote.

This as House Speaker Paul Ryan opens up about his struggle to find common ground with Trump.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. PAUL RYAN (R), HOUSE SPEAKER: It is no secret that Donald Trump and I have had some disagreements. It's no secret that we from time to time clash on an issue or two. That happens with people. That happens with Republicans. The question is, can we put together a process that really actually helps get our party unified?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CABRERA: Aides for Trump and Ryan are scheduled to sit down together this week and talk policy. Ryan says GOP unity could take some time.

Right now Donald Trump is just being a dad. Both he and Vice President Joe Biden are at the same commencement ceremony featuring Trump's daughter Tiffany and Biden's granddaughter, Naomi.

Let's go to CNN producer Kristen Holmes at the University of Pennsylvania.

Kristen, before we get to the ceremony itself, how is the Republican National Committee now reacting to word of this thirty-party effort to topple Trump?

KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN WHITE HOUSE PRODUCER: Well, Ana, as we saw last week, several Republicans trying to rally the party around Donald Trump including Republican National Committee chairman Reince Priebus who arranged and mediated a sit-down between Speaker Ryan and the presumptive nominee to work out some of those differences that we just heard mentioned.

Priebus continued his uniting effort today when asked about this independent candidate that is being drafted to rally Trump. Here's what he had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REINCE PRIEBUS, CHAIRMAN, REPUBLICAN NATIONAL COMMITTEE: And they can try to hijack another party and get on the ballot. But look, it's a suicide mission for our country because what it means is that you're throwing down not just eight years of the White House, but potentially 100 years on the Supreme Court and wrecking this country for many generations. And so I think that's the legacy these folks will leave behind. I think it's very dangerous and there's other ways to get assurances on the things that they're worried about.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HOLMES: You know, and as Speaker Ryan works to find common ground with Donald Trump, he has yet to endorse the nominee. However, he did praise him today saying that he should at least get credit for bringing more voters to the Republican Party.

CABRERA: Kristen, let's talk about tonight's graduation ceremony. This must be a security nightmare with both Trump and Biden there. Tell us about it.

HOLMES: Well, actually, you might have been able to just hear those dogs barking behind me. That is the K-9 unit. Both of these men have their own Secret Service details and motorcades. So you see long lines. Security has shut down several areas of the campus making it very difficult to get into the arena where the graduation is actually being held.

University officials worked with parents and friends of these 1500 students that are graduating today, warning them -- asking them to come early to make sure that they got through that security line and were able to see their friends and family graduate.

CABRERA: All right. Kristen Holmes, reporting for us tonight. Thank you so much.

Let's talk it all over with our panel, Ben Howe, a contributing editor for RedState.com. Also with us, Penny Nance, CEO of Concerned Women for America and the author of "Feisty and Feminine: A Rallying Cry for Conservative Women."

Ben, to you first. Let's talk about these efforts now to recruit a third-party candidate to challenge Trump. We know Romney has tried to woo Nebraska Senator Ben Sass into making a third-party run. Sass said no, thank you. But, Ben, you're a conservative, you don't support Trump. Who's on your list of ideal third-party candidates?

BEN HOWE, CONTRIBUTING EDITOR, REDSTATE.COM: Well, I would love to see Ben Sass realize that he has sort of a duty right now to step up to the plate. I think a lot of these politicians that are looking at the situation are believing that they don't want to be on the Titanic. Reince even said that this would be a suicide mission. It may very well be a suicide mission but for people like me who have been very never Trump from the beginning and believe he could damage the party going forward for at least four years if not eight years as he defines conservatism very inadequately, I am of the opinion that whatever can stop Trump is what we should do. So I hope --

CABRERA: But is too late for anyone as a third-party candidate to get into the race and actually be able to be in a position to succeed?

HOWE: Well, I have a little bit of a different view on that that's not very popular which is as long as he hurts Trump, I'm happy. I --

[17:05:04] CABRERA: To be OK with a Hillary Clinton or Bernie Sanders becoming president instead?

HOWE: I think OK is a strong word. I've accepted the situation. It's the same with the Supreme Court. They've been trying to use the Supreme Court as the Trump card for a while now. The problem is I feel like we've already lost that opportunity. I don't think Donald Trump is going to represent Republicanism or conservatism.

CABRERA: I see you shaking your head, Penny.

PENNY NANCE, CEO, CONCERNED WOMEN FOR AMERICA: Well, that's right. And you know, you can put me in the still undecided and looking for assurances. But I'll tell you one thing that is -- I'm unequivocal about and that is Hillary Clinton. She is unacceptable to us. And you know, it's a real issue the fact that the next administration will point between one and four Supreme Court justices. And as unpredictable as Donald Trump is, Hillary Clinton is incredibly predictable.

I know that she does not align with my values, with my beliefs, with my -- the policies and principles that Concerned Women for American members support. So we need to be realistic about this. Donald Trump was not my first, second, third, fourth, sixth, and so on choice. But unfortunately, I think the party is faced with what we have and we're going to have to put on our big girl pants and we're going to pull them way up.

CABRERA: We're hearing a lot of people really say we need to unite. There are still a lot of Republicans, they just can't do it. Listen to this. We'll talk on the backside.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R), SOUTH CAROLINA: You know how you make America great again? Tell Donald Trump to go to hell.

MITT ROMNEY, FORMER REPUBLICAN PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: Donald Trump is a phony, a fraud.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Our country deserves better than this.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I have rejected a lot of what Mr. Trump has said. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I've said before, I'll say again. This is not

someone that I support.

GRAHAM: But I'm going to support the Republican team at every level except for president.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Given what we know about Donald Trump, I can't vote for that guy either.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CABRERA: So back to you, Penny. You're a former Cruz supporter. He spoke at the Texas convention last night. He didn't even mention Trump. He didn't even mention party unity. What do you say to those Republicans who just can't get behind Trump. They're either on the never Trump or the anybody but Trump train.

NANCE: Well, I think people have to listen to their own conscience, certainly. But let me just say this. I find it sickening that Mitt Romney is on this quest for a third party. I was like many other people did not support him in the last election, in the primary, but came alongside and held my nose and worked very hard to get him elected. And there are a lot of people in that point. So I find this ridiculous that he is, you know, now decided that he doesn't want to play along, that he doesn't like how things turned out.

You know, I don't like how things turned out either. But there's a lot of people that worked very hard to get Donald Trump elected. And that's the system of government we have. They won. He lost. Get over it.

CABRERA: Ben, do you think libertarian candidates like Gary Johnson might be a factor?

HOWE: I've not been a big fan of the idea of getting involved with another party that's already got all of its own problems when we have so many problems in the Republican Party as it is. I would prefer an independent candidate or a write-in campaign. But, you know, this idea that we have some sort of responsibility to the Republican Party ahead of our conservatism is just preposterous. And the idea that Mitt Romney --

NANCE: And I'm not saying that.

HOWE: And the idea that Mitt Romney, who is showing that his convictions are true, the idea that that's sickening, I think that's exactly what we should expect and I want to have from our politicians. People who are willing --

NANCE: I'm just saying --

HOWE: -- tough decisions in spite of what might be popular or what might endanger them. Look, let me make something --

NANCE: No. I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying that --

(CROSSTALK)

HOWE: People in my position that are saying what I'm saying, doing what I'm doing are not --

CABRERA: Let me cut it here, guys. Let me talk about something else that's making news today. Donald Trump and women, the "New York Times" with a scathing report, if you read it all the way through, claiming Trump insulted women in the workplace and in private. Also costly making comments about their looks even making unwelcome romantic overtures.

The reporters for this article said they interviewed some 50 people who participated in this article. And here's what Trump has since tweeted in response. Quote, "Why doesn't the failing 'New York Times' write the real story on the Clintons and women? The media's totally dishonest."

Penny, does Trump's deflection here work? Can he really brush aside the whole treatment of women issue but keep hammering on the Clintons?

NANCE: He has so far. And you know, I wish the story come out before the primary season was over. I think this was probably held. But, you know, surprise. He's a bad boy. He's what my grandmother would call a rake. I don't think anyone is going to be surprised about this. But I think it is a real story that President Clinton was on a plane with a pedophile 26 times. They called her "Air Lolita." It is disgraceful the way the Clintons have treated women.

[17:10:08] And anyone who's paid attention since the '90s knows that. This is a losing issue for her. I would suggest that she think this very carefully because she has so much exposure on the issues the way she has treated women, the way women were treated that came forward and talked about the way they were, you know, mistreated by Bill Clinton and harassed. They were treated horribly. So, you know, good luck with that line of opening attack. It's not going to work.

CABRERA: Ben, we know that 73 percent of women have an unfavorable view of Trump in the last CNN poll. How much damage could this article from the "New York Times" or his women issues do to his campaign?

HOWE: Well, I agree that -- I agree with Penny that there's not much be gained by the Clinton administration -- by the Clinton campaign trying to paint the picture of a misogynist when the candidate --

CABRERA: But this isn't the Clinton campaign. These are women who he has worked with, who are -- or interviewed as part of this article. That really does a deep dive into Trump's treatment of women over the years.

HOWE: Sure. But a lot of these stories happen because somebody points someone else in the right direction. And what I'm saying is, whether it's the tax issue trying to get him to show his taxes or trying to attack him for misogyny, it just seems like those are old world ways of dealing with someone. And Donald Trump is a rule breaker. I don't know that any of these avenues are going to do very much to stop his campaign or make him unpopular with his -- with his fans. They look at it as an assault on him. And --

CABRERA: Ben Howe and Penny Nance, thank you for your thoughts. I did not mean to interrupt you there, Ben, at the end and cut you off.

HOWE: Thank you. No, that's fine.

CABRERA: But we really appreciate your time. Thanks so much for joining us.

NANCE: Thanks.

HOWE: Thank you.

CABRERA: Now the presidential contenders will have another battle this week. Actually two more states who will go to the polls. Watch our ail-day coverage of the Kentucky and Oregon primaries on Tuesday right here on CNN.

And one more programming note. Anderson Cooper has a special interview tomorrow night. John Kasich in his first interview since leaving the race. Can his party unite? Will he endorse Trump and would he consider the VP slot? That's tomorrow night at 8:00 p.m. Eastern right here on CNN, "AC 360."

Coming up, a CNN exclusive with one of Donald Trump's most prominent proteges and supporters.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LOUISE SUNSHINE, FRIEND AND FORMER TRUMP ORGANIZATION VP: See, Donald doesn't distinguish between women and men.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CABRERA: Louise Sunshine on Trump, the businessman and his future as a politician.

Plus, ISIS fighters trying to storm a Baghdad gas plant. How security forces held them back despite this massive explosion.

And the El Chapo effect. How the drug lord's recent return to a prison in Juarez, Mexico is reopening an old wound.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:16:13] CABRERA: Explosions, gunfire in Baghdad today. Ten people are dead and ISIS says they did it. It was a coordinated suicide car bomb attack on a gas plant north of Baghdad at dawn. Officials say after this car bombing, a second bomber set off explosives inside the facility there before ISIS fighters tried to storm in on foot. Now this assault left 24 people hurt and that huge fire burning.

This is just the latest deadly attack in a fresh wave of ISIS violence. In fact, more than 100 people have died in just the past few days. Bombings, shootings, suicide attacks. All claimed by ISIS.

Let's go live to Cairo now and CNN's Ian Lee.

Ian, this new violence is spiking at the same time the Iraqi government appears to be in turmoil. Coincidence?

IAN LEE, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Ana, ISIS is opportunistic. On one hand, they're taking advantage of the political chaos. The prime minister of Iraq Haider al-Abadi is trying to fight the terror organization on one hand, but on the other trying to keep the government together and address political and economic problems. ISIS also taking advantage of the security vacuum right now, targeting Shiite areas to stoke sectarian tensions.

And today, one Iraqi official had enough. The governor of Baghdad, Ali al-Tamimi, condemned security chiefs for not having enough manpower or fire power at the plant. The guards at that plant had light weapons against ISIS' heavy weapons and a deadly tactics. One telling according to the governor, is that it took over two hours for elite Iraqi forces to respond to this attack. And tonight, the governor of Iraq is calling for the chiefs responsible to be fired.

CABRERA: Ian Lee reporting from Cairo, thank you so much. Very interesting developments there. And we will be talking with one of the experts in our local government here, in the Foreign Affairs Committee about the ISIS developments.

Ian Lee, thanks again.

Coming up, a sobering reminder for the city once known as the murder capital of the world. How the people of Juarez, Mexico feel about "El Chapo" Guzman being imprisoned nearby. We'll get a live report.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:22:11] CABRERA: Mexico's most ruthless drug lord, blamed for the death of thousands of people, the man they call "El Chapo," he is not in the United States yet, but he is really close. Locked up in a prison right across from El Paso, Texas. People in the city of Juarez know they have a terrible image already and they've been trying to move past the days when blood ran in the streets because of "El Chapo." But having the man back in town is not helping.

CNN's Nick Valencia has more.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

NICK VALENCIA, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Life goes on in Ciudad Juarez, Mexico, once desolate streets traded for a semblance of tranquility in the city just across the river from El Paso, Texas.

Not so long ago it was infested with drug cartels. At its violent peak, there were more than 3,000 people murdered in one year. Most of those deaths were attributed to the war between the local Juarez cartel and the infamous Sinaloa Federation, popularly known for its leader, Joaquin Guzman, aka, El Chapo.

While life on the streets has changed in Juarez, with El Chapo's return, the bloody past seems very much present. His presence has re- imagined the nightmares for many.

Sergio Velez lived through the violence brought to Juarez by El Chapo between 2009 and 2012. He says he still mourns the death of one of his construction workers, killed inside his business.

SERGIO VELEZ, LOCAL BUSINESS OWNER (Through Translator): There are many people very hurt by that war. There are many still mourning what happened during the narco war, and there's still a very latent sense of insecurity bred by the delinquent group of El Chapo Guzman here in Ciudad Juarez.

VALENCIA: Painful memories Velez buried deep in his mind have been unlocked by the return of El Chapo. Even with the kingpin behind bars, some fear of a return of impunity with the cartel foot soldiers still in the city.

However the mayor of Juarez tells CNN the drug lord's transfer to Juarez has had no impact or relevance on the daily life of most residents.

MAYOR JAVIER GONZALEZ MOCKEN, JUAREZ, MEXICO (Through Translator): "Juarez now finds itself peaceful, working, and dedicated to produce goods and services. Juarez is dedicated to creating better life conditions for its residents.

VALENCIA: There are obvious concerns that El Chapo will escape prison for a third time. There have also been questions about the penitentiary's infrastructure. Is it capable of holding him?

With the spotlight back on Juarez for the moment, residents would prefer to discard the unwanted attention and move on from its violent past.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

VALENCIA: And the mayor of Juarez tells CNN that the city has not taken added security precautions with El Chapo back in the city. There are local reports, however, that say local rival cartel gang members have been transported out of the penitentiary where El Chapo is has added security measures.

[17:25:04] As for how long he's going to be held there in that penitentiary. There's no official timeline yet given -- Ana.

CABRERA: On a related note, I want to ask you about some reports about questions of whether El Chapo might have actually entered the U.S. during his time when he was on the run. Remember after he escaped from prison. What more are you learning about that?

VALENCIA: So according to his daughter, she told a local journalist that his -- her father in 2015 crossed into the United States specifically into California to visit her at the house that he owned. Now during a Senate Judiciary Committee hearing earlier this week, Senator Grassley from Iowa was grilling the head of the Customs and Border Protection, Gil Kerlikowske, about these reports. Kerlikowske responded saying that they vetted those claims but were unable to substantiate them.

That was not a satisfactory answer for Senator Grassley. He's now written an open letter to the Department of Homeland Security to try to figure out whether or not El Chapo's daughter has been interviewed as part of this investigation to how he escaped or how he was seemingly able to cross into the U.S. not once, but twice -- Ana.

CABRERA: Wow. That would be a real security issue certainly.

VALENCIA: Yes.

CABRERA: Nick Valencia, thank you.

VALENCIA: You bet.

CABRERA: Coming up, a former Trump executive speaking out about her time with Donald Trump. This is a CNN exclusive.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: How was he as a boss?

SUNSHINE: He was never a boss.

WHITFIELD: How was he --

SUNSHINE: He was never a boss. He was a leader.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CABRERA: Why she says the glass ceiling for women was only two feet high when it came to working for the billionaire businessman.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CABRERA: About 5:30 Eastern now. Want to take you live to some images of Hillary Clinton at a rally in Fort Mitchell, Kentucky. Her campaign calling this a "get out the vote" event ahead of Kentucky's primary coming up on Tuesday. And while her husband did very well in the 1990s here, polls show Hillary Clinton is in a very tight race with Bernie Sanders. 55 delegates up for grabs there.

[17:30:10] Again, we'll monitor this rally and her speech there. We'll bring you anything that really stands out.

Now someone who admires Hillary Clinton is also one of Donald Trump's former proteges. Louise Sunshine worked for Trump for 16 years and emerged one of New Yorker's most prominent real estate brokers. Sunshine shared some of her experiences with CNN's Fredricka Whitfield who is joining me now.

Fred, I'm curious. How did she describe Trump in the workplace?

WHITFIELD: Well, she said he is a leader. She said he was a mentor. So we talked about a range of things. How he helped shape her career at a time when women weren't always invited to the table. How he market his outrageousness and whether that voice on that 25-year-old recording is that of Donald Trump, the man she says she knows well.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SUNSHINE: The boardroom was in Donald's head. The boardroom was all of this -- these ideas he had, the vision he had. And if you could buy into his vision and you were trustworthy and you were intelligent and you were proactive -- proactive was the key.

WHITFIELD: How is he as a boss?

SUNSHINE: He was never a boss.

WHITFIELD: That's -- how would you -- how would you --

SUNSHINE: He was never a boss. He was a leader. It's a lot different to have a boss than a leader. He was a leader. He taught me. He mentored me. He showed me the way.

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: And it's an honor to have everybody here.

SUNSHINE: And so when he started to run for president and people said to me, oh, it's ridiculous, he's a joke, blah, blah, blah, I said, he's going to win.

WHITFIELD (voice-over): But possibly winning the presidency is still six months away with lots of room for campaign trail surprises like this newly released 25-year-old recording of a voice Trump denies is his.

(On camera): You know his voice.

SUNSHINE: And when was the recording made?

WHITFIELD: This is 25 years ago.

SUNSHINE: That's right up my alley.

WHITFIELD: All right. Let's listen.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, it's just that he really decided that he wasn't -- you know, he didn't want to make a commitment. He didn't want to make a commitment. He really thought it was too soon. He's coming out of a marriage that -- and he's starting to do tremendously well financially.

SUNSHINE: I did not hear Donald's voice.

WHITFIELD: You did not?

SUNSHINE: Not the Donald I know.

WHITFIELD: So was there a John Miller? Do you recall a John Miller?

SUNSHINE: Who -- no, I don't know John Miller.

WHITFIELD: Couple other things. Would you consider Donald Trump a flip-flopper when he says banning Muslims --

SUNSHINE: No.

WHITFIELD: -- in one step, and now he says, well, it was a suggestion? Does that make him a flip-flopper? Should people trust his word?

SUNSHINE: He is not a flip-flopper. What he is is -- what was it you said on page five of his book? I'm going to play that I am --

WHITFIELD: Sometimes it pays to be a little wild.

SUNSHINE: That is that. He was being a little wild or a lot wild. A lot of the outrageous things, wild things that he said, you will see him being different.

WHITFIELD: So you're voting for Donald Trump?

SUNSHINE: You're not supposed to ask me that question because I'm a lifelong Democrat. I've been a Democrat since the day I went into politics.

WHITFIELD: And you know the Clintons.

SUNSHINE: I do know them very well and admire them. I think watching Hillary and her energy and her knowledge. I mean, she can speak to any issue at any time and knows exactly what she's talking about. I totally identify with Hillary.

WHITFIELD: In what ways?

SUNSHINE: In that she's been a great mother. A great wife. And an outstanding brilliant woman.

WHITFIELD: Will this be difficult for you to make a decision? Are you torn?

SUNSHINE: I guess the election is still several months away and I have not gotten to the point where I need to make a decision. So I haven't made one.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WHITFIELD: So Louise Sunshine says she is anxious to see who, Clinton or Trump, if they are the nominees, who they would select to be on their teams. And that way she says she will have a better sense as to whether they have won her vote and that's likely, she says, to come after the conventions -- Ana.

[17:35:02] CABRERA: So interesting to hear her insight into Donald Trump in the workplace, especially, and her feeling torn, being a lifelong Democrat considering voting Republican this cycle.

Fredricka Whitfield , thanks so much.

WHITFIELD: All right, thanks, Ana. CABRERA: Coming up, is Donald Trump backing off one of his signature

proposals?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: Donald J. Trump is calling for a total and complete shutdown of Muslims entering the United States.

This is just a suggestion until we find out what's going on.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CABRERA: Is Donald Trump changing his tune on Muslims in America? Remember in December, he called for a total, a complete ban of Muslims entering the U.S.? Well, then this week, he told NBC this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: Well, I'm not the president right now so anything I suggest is really a suggestion. And if I were president, I'd put in legislation and do what I have to do. I'm not softening my stance at all, but I'm always flexible on issues.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CABRERA: "Daily Beast" contributor Dean Obeidallah is joining me now.

OK. So a lot of his critics would call this a flip-flop, right? But does he deserve any credit for softening his stance here?

[17:40:02] DEAN OBEIDALLAH, CONTRIBUTOR, THE DAILY BEAST: Not at all. There's no softening. I have no idea what's going on. Donald Trump is on both sides of issue after issue. From raising tax on the rich to cutting taxes for the rich. This ban on Muslims. Now he's saying everything is a suggestion. Like, you know, at the office in the coffee break room and you put little suggestions in a box.

He's running for president. These are policy proposals. And I hope there's GOP buyer's remorse. The people who wanted him, because he was going to ban all Muslims, now might be a little upset that he's not going to do what he's saying on any issue perhaps.

CABRERA: Let me play devil's advocate here.

OBEIDALLAH: Sure.

CABRERA: I mean, is it so bad to have somebody who is open minded, who is willing to consider other ideas?

OBEIDALLAH: There's nothing wrong with that. I think when you're voting for president, you want to know what the core beliefs of that person, Ana. I'm being objective. No one can tell us the core beliefs of Donald Trump at this point. He literally is on both sides of the issues. I don't even know if he knows the difference between the truth and a lie at this point from thousands of Muslims cheering at 9/11, to comments about hundred thousands of Syrian refugees coming in even though President Obama says 10,000. The list goes on and on. I wrote about it for CNN, flip-flop, they're actually lies. I don't think he knows they're lies. That's the reality going on.

CABRERA: I want to get your reaction or thoughts on what we heard from the president today. He gave a commencement address at Rutgers and he brought up this idea of a Muslim ban and some of the rhetoric we've heard from Donald Trump. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Isolating or disparaging Muslims, suggesting that they should be treated differently when it comes to entering this country, that is not just a betrayal of our values --

(CHEERS AND APPLAUSE)

OBAMA: That's not just a betrayal of who we are. It would alienate the very communities at home and abroad who are our most important partners in the fight against violent extremism.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CABRERA: What do you think?

OBEIDALLAH: I think that's great sentiment. I think President Obama hits it on the head. You want Muslim community, I'm Muslim, our community, together working, all of us united against ISIS. ISIS would -- their number one victim are Muslims. We hate them. We want to see them eliminated.

This idea of pushing us away like Donald Trump is doing is ridiculous. And a ban on a billion Muslims? Like putting politics aside, it's irrational. It's a little irrational policy based perhaps on bigotry or a lack of understanding of how the world works. I think that hopefully will send, though, a message to our fellow Americans about the kind of policy Donald Trump wants.

I'm going to get rid of every undocumented immigrant, I'm going to build a wall, ban all Muslims. No nuance. Everything is over the top.

CABRERA: And this is about more than just America because we know there are Muslims all around the world and the world eye is on us. You wrote something interesting in the "Daily Beast." You say Sadiq Khan, the newly elected mayor of London, is Donald Trump's worst nightmare, you wrote, quote, "Khan is a living, breathing example of a person who is proudly Western and proudly Muslim. He doesn't hate the West or America as Trump needs you to believe that all practicing Muslims do."

Why do you believe that this is something that he wants you to believe? OBEIDALLAH: He needs you to believe it. If not banning a billion

people because of their religion, which is no different than racial profiling by religious basis and on steroids, would be irrational and is irrational. Sadiq Khan, a man proudly Muslim. He took the oath of office for the parliament 10 years ago with his hand on the Quran and he fought for marriage equality. This is a man who's a human rights attorney. The new speaker of the German parliament, a few days ago, a Muslim woman. I was in Canada last night. Eleven members of their parliament Muslim. They have a Muslim member of the cabinet. They embrace being a Muslim and embrace Western values one and the same.

CABRERA: So fear you think is such a powerful factor.

OBEIDALLAH: He needs fear. Donald Trump needs to. Without fear his bans make no sense. Deporting 11 million undocumented immigrants it makes no sense if you're not afraid of every Latino out there. Donald Trump needs you to be afraid. That's his whole policy. That's what he's about. He might flip-flop on other things. One thing is he wants you to be afraid and he says he can -- a big savior. But he needs you to be afraid to be our savior. And I'm hoping Americans don't fall for this bigotry and hatred.

CABRERA: I want to get your take on how comedy has treated the election because everyone watches "SNL," right?

OBEIDALLAH: Right.

CABRERA: Especially election cycle.

OBEIDALLAH: Sure.

CABRERA: Let's play a clip from last night where they take on this -- spoof this idea of Trump pretending to be his own PR person. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. Trump is the real-life inspiration for Iron Man. Who am I? I'm his publicist, Joey Pepperoni. No, I'm not Donald Trump in disguise. This is just what classy people sound like, OK?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CABRERA: How do you see comedy impacting this election cycle?

OBEIDALLAH: No, I think that's great. I worked for "SNL" for eight seasons. I was there when Donald Trump hosted it the first time. I think Darryl Hammond there as Trump is great. "SNL" at its height is informing you, making you laugh, and giving a little bit more information about an issue. The same way you miss Jon Stewart and his voice now in this whole election cycle.

I think if they can turn Donald Trump more into a punch line, and not presidential, it hurts him with independent voters.

[17:45:02] That's all that matters now. Forget GOP supporters. That game's over. We're now 40 percent of the electorate, independent voters. If they think Donald Trump's a laughingstock and they're laughing at him, no longer is he the great savior who's going to protect us. He's the guy who's a punch line. That's what he was for years. Somehow got away from that. I think now we might see the comedy world turn him back into a punch line. We'll see. It's going to be tough.

CABRERA: We'll see. We'll see. Dean Obeidallah, great to have you. Thanks so much.

OBEIDALLAH: Thanks.

CABRERA: And still coming up, Pope Francis raising eyebrows with some comments about the possibility of female deacons. But what did he really mean and what's the reaction then in the Catholic Church? We'll talk to some experts.

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CABRERA: Pope Francis makes another potentially groundbreaking statement saying the church should look into the idea of women becoming deacons. Now this is a big deal. It is controversial because right now women are not allowed to serve in that clergical role.

So let's discuss the significance. Candida Moss, professor of New Testament and early Christianity at University of Notre Dame and Father Timothy Kesicki, president of the Jesuit Conference of the United States and Canada are joining me now.

Candida, to you first. Do you think this could really become a reality or is this more of a symbolic gesture?

PROF. CANDIDA MOSS, UNIVERSITY OF NOTRE DAME: Well, if women deacons are allowed in the church, that would be a huge move. But all he said so far is he's willing to look in to it. He's going to study it. He was told, and this is true, that there were women deacons in the early church and would he therefore allow there to be women deacons in the church today. And he said it is something that the church should look into. So right now it's just a lot of potential. But if it actually happened, it would mean that women's voices were heard speaking their own words in church for the first time possibly ever.

CABRERA: Wow, Father, sounds significant. But Pope Francis has been on record as opposing female priests. We know deacons have a lot of similar roles as priests. I'm Catholic. I don't understand why women shouldn't be priests or deacons. Other branches have Christianity certainly have female pastors including Lutherans. What's your take away?

FR. TIMOTHY KESICKI, PRESIDENT, JESUIT CONFERENCE OF THE UNITED STATES AND CANADA: Yes. So this is a theological question. And the church has had really in its whole history a tradition of all-male priesthood. Remembering how Christ chose men as disciples and that a priest acts theologically in the person of Christ. So you're right, Pope Francis has three times been asked about this. He wrote about it in his Apostolic exhortation. He was asked on his flight home from Rio in July of 2013 and again when he left the United States in September and each time he said no. The church has already defined this.

The question of deacons is new. And he recognizes that in the early church, if we read Saint Paul's letter to the Romans, the 16th chapter, there is evidence that women Phoebe served in the ministry which is like being a deacon. And that's why he said it would be useful to study this further, thus opening the question.

CABRERA: Candida, let's talk about how Pope Francis has really transformed the identity of the Catholic Church, if not through actually instilling new rules, he has certainly at least thrown out ideas that challenge the traditional Catholic ways. He's softened his stance on abortion or talked about at least having mercy for women who had abortions. He's also opened up the door for more mercy and grace for people who have divorces. How do you think he's been as a Pope to women?

MOSS: Well, the tone of the church has been very different. So he has been much softer and gentler. He said we've got to listen to other people's ideas. He said that we don't always have to talk about abortion and same-sex marriage. We can talk about other things like poverty and helping people and opening the church. When it comes to women, he's been a little less progressive. So he has maintained the line on contraception. He's been very forceful in saying that there will be no women priests and he once described women as the strawberries on top of the cake when he's talking about women's roles in the church.

I think this is often a translation issue because he's also called for heightened leadership roles for women and he talked about how important they are, although often in their roles as mothers.

CABRERA: Father, one last question to you, if this study comes back and concludes women should be allowed to be deacons, what do you think the Pope will do?

KESICKI: Well, you know, he's not afraid of the question. He didn't immediately bat it down which is a very positive sign. He was asked about the commission and he expressed his own interest in the question. So I think he will listen very closely to the commission. He's very consultative. While he has his own interest and passion he really does depend on bishops, in theologians and those who serve him. But he's not afraid of asking a question like this. And I think he will be very open minded and constructive in moving forward, in advancing what the commission recommends.

CABRERA: Father Tim Kesicki and Candida Moss, thanks to both of you.

MOSS: Thank you.

KESICKI: Thank you.

CABRERA: Still ahead, a preview of tonight's brand new episode of "PARTS UNKNOWN" with Anthony Bourdain. He's up in big sky country exploring life and sports in Montana. Stay right there.

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[17:57:53] CABRERA: On tonight's brand new episode of "PARTS UNKNOWN," Anthony Bourdain explores the wilderness of Montana. He meets with Native Americans to learn why horses are so important to life and sports in that region. Here's a preview.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANTHONY BOURDAIN, CNN HOST, PARTS UNKNOWN: Montana, many have come to claim their piece over the years but before the prospectors and explorers there were the plains Indians. The Absaroka have been master horsemen since they adopted Spanish introduced mustangs in the 18th century.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: General Black Jack Pershing. He called the Native Americans the centaurs of the plains.

BOURDAIN: Better known as the Crow they were once part of the larger Hadassah tribe. Centuries ago they split off on their own and wandered or were pushed by conflict with the Blackfeet, Cheyenne and Dakota, until settling here in the Yellowstone River Valley.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That horse became everything to our people.

BOURDAIN: Kennard Real Bird grew up ranching and raising horses here at Medicine Tail Coulee which happens to be the exact spot where General George Custer had the worst day of his life.

Kennard raises horses for rodeo, the riding and for this, Indian relay racing.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The athletic ability on them kids are just amazing. The competition is intense.

BOURDAIN: They travel all over to compete at this collarbone smashing, skull cracking, bones snappingly dangerous sport. Former allies and former blood enemies alike.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It requires a lot of courage.

BOURDAIN: I'll bet.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CABRERA: Saddle up for "PARTS UNKNOWN MONTANA" tonight at 9:00 Eastern only on CNN.

Just about 6:00 Eastern. Thank you for rolling with me. You are live in the CNN NEWSROOM. I'm Ana Cabrera. In for Poppy Harlow. Great to have you here.

Donald Trump's unity effort might just be hitting another roadblock. As Republicans try to wrangle their party together, there are signs of fresh splinters that could rip the GOP apart. I'm talking about a possible third party candidate entering the race.

The "Washington Post" reporting just this morning Mitt Romney and a quote, "band of exasperated Republicans are actively searching for an independent willing to challenge Trump. The only problem no potential candidate --