Return to Transcripts main page

CNN NEWSROOM

Bathroom Lawsuit; Can Trump and Ryan Get Along?; Trump's Debt Plan. Aired 3-3:30p ET

Aired May 9, 2016 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:00:02]

ERIC DRAPER, PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH'S PERSONAL PHOTOGRAPHER: I could be right in front of his face, and he didn't care.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: Quickly, when did you fully absorb that you had a front-row seat to one of the worst days of our nation's history?

DRAPER: You know, it took a while.

You know, it took a while to comprehend that day and to process what actually happened. And it wasn't until we were headed home, actually, and as we approached, Air Force One approached Andrews Air Force Base and everyone was looking out the windows of the plane, and we saw the F-18s flying right next to the wing and off the left side of the plane, and out of the right side of the plane, we can see the smoke still burning from the Pentagon that was also attacked.

And I knew at that point that we were at war.

BALDWIN: We were, indeed. We are.

Eric Draper, thank you so much for the archive and for taking the time. I appreciate it.

DRAPER: Thank you.

BALDWIN: You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin. Thank you so much for being with me on this Monday.

As the only Republican candidate still standing, Donald Trump is poised to win tomorrow's primaries both in Nebraska and West Virginia. His real head-to-head challenge is actually this week. It's Thursday. That is when the presumed Republican nominee due to meet with House Speaker Paul Ryan.

Speaker Ryan rocked the political world when he said it not -- he's not quite ready to support Donald Trump for president in talking to Jake Tapper last week. Today, the speaker told a Milwaukee newspaper that he would step down as the chairman of the Republican National Convention if Trump were to ask him to do so.

By the way, Trump has not done that. He did remind Republican leaders of what his unprecedented rise means. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I have received more votes than any person ever to run in the Republican primary. So, I have people that I'm representing. They're unbelievable people. They're loyal. They're smart. They're sharp.

They're tired of being abused. They're tired of not having increases in their wages for a period of 18 years. So, I represent a very important group of people and a powerful group of people. These people have to be treated with respect.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: CNN political reporter Sara Murray is with me now.

And, Sara Murray, all eyes on Thursday and this meeting or it sounds like meetings. Tell me what you know about this.

SARA MURRAY, CNN NATIONAL POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: So, this, I think, is going to be a big day, because Donald Trump's campaign, while they have been doing outreach on the Hill, they haven't really done a lot with leadership.

And, of course, we have seen Paul Ryan saying he's not quite ready to support Donald Trump. And so they're going to meet at the RNC. Reince Priebus is helping to facilitate the meeting, which might make it go a little bit more smoothly. He is very close to Paul Ryan and he also has a pretty decent working relationship with Trump at this point.

But I think what we are kind of hearing from both sides is these two guys don't really know each other very well at all. They really haven't been in a room and talked about, OK, here's what I stand for. What do you stand for? And is there common ground?

And I think it will be really interesting to see if they come out of that meeting saying, OK, we are -- we found a couple of things that we're on the same page on, or if they say, OK, we have met and now we're going our separate ways.

BALDWIN: So, I was talking last hour with one of the reporters who was in the room with Speaker Ryan, part of "The Milwaukee Sentinel," who asked the question about Donald Trump. They're very close. That's a name that has been floated as a potential third-party candidate. And what did Speaker Ryan say to that?

MURRAY: Well, it's telling that Speaker Ryan's reaction is to say this would be a disaster for our party.

BALDWIN: That was his word, a disaster.

MURRAY: A disaster. And he said he's been telling that to other people as well, too.

So, it is pretty clear that he is not trying to push the narrative publicly that there would be a third-party alternative. We know there are still some never Trump folks who are still hoping for that.

And, look, it might just be a matter of a couple of giving it a couple more months for folks to come around and either accept or just resign themselves to the fact that you get your two choices here. You are going to have a Democrat, you're going to have a Republican. And we will see if someone can cobble together an independent bid.

But it's clear among the top ranks of the Republican Party they feel like this would be very damaging.

BALDWIN: Thursday meeting, it's very big. Sara Murray, we will be talking about it. Thank you so much for setting it up.

On the campaign trail, Donald Trump has spoken about, you know, banning Muslims. He's used vulgarity. He's made risque comments about his certain parts of his anatomy.

So, when a particular Trump proposal is being called a shocker, that is saying a lot. Has to do with what he said about the U.S. debt. Remember, investors and governments worldwide count on U.S. treasuries as the ultimate in safety. They're considered as close to a risk-free investment as you can get. That's why the U.S. can borrow at such low interest rates.

Here's what Donald Trump said today about debt on "NEW DAY."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: I said, if we can buy back government debt at a discount -- in other words, if interest rates go up and we can buy bonds back at a discount, if we are liquid enough as a country, we should do that.

In other words, we can buy back debt at a discount.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: With me now, CNN international anchor of "QUEST MEANS BUSINESS," Mr. Richard Quest, and Peter Morici, professor of international business at the University of Maryland.

[15:05:07]

Gentlemen, welcome to both of you.

RICHARD QUEST, CNN AVIATION CORRESPONDENT: So--

PETER MORICI, ECONOMIST, UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND: Good to be with you.

QUEST: He clarified what he was actually meaning, Brooke.

He's not talking -- Donald Trump is not talking about going out and doing a debt negotiation. He is talking about that scenario where interest rates have risen naturally or whatever, debt, U.S. government debt has fallen. He would then get the Treasury to buy back the debt that was at a higher price. They're already doing a bit of that anyway under proper debt

management, but this is a dangerous heresy, because the loose way in which he is speaking is exactly the criticism that people make about his candidature.

BALDWIN: OK.

I knew you wanted to jump in on that, Richard Quest.

So, Peter, to you, you know, it sounds like Trump is suggesting that the full faith and credit of the U.S. is subject to negotiation. It's a businessman's perspective. Do you think that's acceptable?

MORICI: Well, certainly, the full faith and credit is not negotiable.

But if, over time, interest rates rise, as we expect they will, now that we're entering more normal economic conditions, then debt that has been issued these last several years will have a market value below its face value. And it's possible to issue new bonds and buy back the old bonds and reduce the level of the capital level or the actual indebtedness of the United States.

The interest that we pay on the debt would stay the same. What we need to avoid is having a cavalier view of what we owe. Although we print the world's money and we can't really go bankrupt or fail, we can always print more money to pay off our debts, unlike Greece or any other country in the world.

BALDWIN: Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. That's what he is saying, but isn't the result inflation? Isn't that a huge issue?

MORICI: Well, I was getting to that. Yes.

BALDWIN: OK.

MORICI: The trouble with that is that you essentially will create inflation. And you will create a situation where people will want even higher interest rates on your debt, and it will spin out of control.

The reality is the United States has more latitude with debt than almost any country in the world, but that latitude is not infinite. And Trump needs to be very careful about what he says. The problem is that on just about every issue, he doesn't have knowledgeable experts. He is kind of like a sophomore who gets up in class and espouses what he thinks on a subject, and it is about 60 percent correct.

BALDWIN: Hmm.

Did you want to jump in?

QUEST: I mean, Peter's summed it up elegantly.

This is exactly the issue that you have got with this debt thing. But there's one other point. Peter, all right, so you go -- interest rates have gone up and you're

going to buy back some of your other debt. But the U.S. government is already in a negative debt situation, so you're going to have to issue more debt at a higher interest rate to pay back the other debt.

I mean, this idea of just issuing debt to pay back other debt, which is -- which they're doing with notes and bills, as you're well aware -- it's simplistic. Its beauty is simplicity and that is also its danger.

MORICI: Oh, absolutely.

But governments do this all the time. So do corporations. It is -- as you said at the beginning of this process or this interview is that that's prudent debt management. What is dangerous here is the notion that somehow or other Donald Trump through his businessman's acumen and wizardry can somehow or other relieve the United States of the most fundamental aspect of its debt.

And that's the annual interest payments. We have to pay interest on the stuff. If the interest rate on the debt goes up, even if you buy back the old debt at a discount, you're still going to be paying just as much interest.

And at the rate we're going with our borrowing, we are going to be paying a lot of interest by mid-next decade, and neither party's presidential candidates have been willing to address that. And that is a very serious problem.

BALDWIN: Let me move on, because that's one issue. The other issue we have heard -- we have heard a number of the candidates talking about is minimum wage.

I know Hillary Clinton's first interview after Trump became -- you laugh, but it's so important to talk about -- became the presumptive nominee, said, Trump believes wages are too high, and now, less than a week later, Trump is breaking with Republican Party, Peter Morici, which is significant.

MORICI: Well, the reality is, the minimum wage is a fact of life.

If the federal government doesn't have a minimum wage, most states will. And so, you know, economists might not like that minimum wages. Conservatives might not like them to have, but where should they be set?

I think that they should be set at a local rate. That is, it should vary depending on your locality. The highest the minimum wage, to my knowledge, has been in terms of 2015 dollars is about $10, $10.20 an hour back in the '60s.

[15:10:10]

That's about 40 percent of the average wage in the United States. I would be very comfortable with the notion that, since the Bureau of Labor Statistics computes the average wage in each county in the United States, that we then set the minimum in that county at 40 percent.

That would permit, for example, Manhattan and San Francisco, where the cost of living is much higher--

BALDWIN: Right, right, right, right.

MORICI: -- to pay a lot more.

BALDWIN: Quest, you wanted to jump in, I see.

QUEST: Yes.

I mean, Lord Maynard Keynes famously said -- and you will be familiar with this quote -- "When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do, sir?"

And what Donald Trump is basically saying is, I have changed my mind on the minimum wage question.

The difficulty here is, you do expect to go into an election with a candidate which you know--

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: With a solid -- right.

QUEST: Yes, by all means--

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: He could say, I'm a businessman, I'm flexible, everything is negotiable.

QUEST: Change your mind on minor matters. Change your mind when the facts change.

BALDWIN: But not something like that.

QUEST: But the facts haven't changed on the minimum wage argument. He has changed his mind.

And the danger here is that the electorate is entitled to say, well, what else are you going to change your mind on a whim or a view or the facts changing? That's the significance of this changing of mind. Of course, everybody changes their minds when the facts change.

BALDWIN: Right, right. No, it's an excellent point and it's something that the voters need to think about as they're heading in, in November.

Richard Quest, my friend, thank you.

Peter Morici, thank you so much as well.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: Thank you.

Next, just in, the speaker of the House, Paul Ryan, responding to Donald Trump saying he might remove Ryan from the convention in Cleveland ahead of their highly anticipated meeting this week. What's going on there? We will discuss.

Plus, moments from now, the Justice Department expected to fire back at the state of North Carolina after the state sued the feds over its controversial bathroom law. How will the attorney general, Loretta Lynch, react to that move?

We will watch it live.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:16:03]

BALDWIN: You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin. Thank you so much for being with me.

Sarah Palin, she is making waves here in the fight between Donald Trump and Republicans who refuse to -- those who refuse to get behind him. She's squarely in Trump's corner, make no mistake about it, and had this to say about the speaker of the House of Representatives, Paul Ryan, and his refusal to endorse the presumed nominee thus far.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SARAH PALIN (R), FORMER ALASKA GOVERNOR: I think Paul Ryan is soon to be Cantored, as in Eric Cantor.

His political career is over, but for a miracle, because he has so disrespected the will of the people.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Eric Cantor, you know who he is, the former Republican House majority leader whose stunning reelection defeat two years ago sent shockwaves through Washington.

CNN Money's Cristina Alesci actually had the opportunity to sit down with Eric Cantor recently and talked to him about Donald Trump.

CRISTINA ALESCI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes.

BALDWIN: Spill it.

ALESCI: It was kind of a surreal moment, because I didn't think he was going to endorse him or say he would support him, but he did.

And this is the ultimate establishment guy who's basically saying, if he becomes the nominee, I will support him. And I asked him specifically why. And he said, basically, anything's better than Hillary. And I don't even -- I'm not even sure what his policies are. And I asked him specifically about foreign policy and his policy on big business. Take a listen. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ERIC CANTOR (R), FORMER U.S. CONGRESSMAN: There's certainly alarm.

And who knows what Donald Trump's foreign policy's going to be, right? I mean, he gave a speech the other day, and the title was only the thing I took from it, which was "America First."

But what does that mean? What does that mean in terms of our obligations around the world?

And I have always been of the opinion that, if America doesn't stand up for free trade, for the regular international norms in terms of conducting commercial transactions, and be there as a military power to make sure that the bad actors of the world know that there are consequences for crossing the line with America.

ALESCI: So what is Donald Trump telling Wall Street?

CANTOR: That's the thing. No one knows. He has been on every side of issues.

Again, it goes back to sort of my sense of what our obligation is as Americans. We have got to participate in this democracy and speak out, so we can help influence where the policies end up.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ALESCI: So, he's saying, basically, we want a seat at the table. We want to able to shape those policies eventually, once we know what they are.

But the striking language that Cantor used, which is, America's obligations around the world, that is what has got the business community really nervous, because when Donald Trump's talking about America first, what he's saying is, perhaps he's willing to renegotiate trade deals.

Now, if that happens, that will put our commercial business at risk overseas and potentially impact the economy and the average person adversely.

And that is what Wall Street, that's what the C-suite, that's what these guys are worried about. So now you have the big money donors telling me behind closed doors they're not publicly going to come out against Trump, but what they're going to do is, they're going to take their money and focus on the down-ballot, making sure that they -- that the Republicans keep control of the House and the Senate. And that's where the money will go.

BALDWIN: Interesting.

Cristina Alesci, former Leader Cantor, thank you so much for sharing that.

ALESCI: Thanks for having me. As we mentioned, House Speaker Paul Ryan and Donald Trump, they will

be meeting this Thursday in a moment that could determine the future of Trump's campaign, the future of the Republican Party or perhaps both.

Let me bring in two of my favorite ladies, Dana Bash, CNN chief political correspondent, Nia-Malika Henderson, CNN senior political reporter.

OK, so first up, a couple of headlines out of this meeting that Speaker Ryan had with some -- this columnist I spoke with from "The Milwaukee Sentinel," specifically the notion of if Donald Trump, Dana Bash, if Donald Trump asks Speaker Ryan to step down, you know, with his gavel, come Cleveland, he will do it.

[15:20:10]

What?

DANA BASH, CNN SENIOR CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: That's right. And you know what? I feel like -- you remember the VH-1 show "Pop-Up Video," where like--

BALDWIN: "Pop-Up Video," of course.

BASH: -- they're saying something and then something pops up with what's really going on? And so the pop-up video for this would be like, please, please, don't make me do that?

(LAUGHTER)

NIA-MALIKA HENDERSON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Good point.

BALDWIN: But, in all seriousness, you know, I don't know that there's an expectation from Paul Ryan to say anything different.

If Donald Trump says I don't want you, what is he going to do? Say, no, I demand to be the convention chair? It's just -- it's not like it's a -- it would be a pleasant experience. It's not like it's going to be easy anyway, but a less pleasant experience there.

But, actually, my takeaway from the interview that Paul Ryan did today with his hometown paper was that he seems to be cooling things down a little bit, you know?

BALDWIN: Yes. How do you mean?

BASH: He said -- I just feel like in a couple of different ways, he tried to say, look, I get that Donald Trump did an amazing thing here and he did get millions of votes.

BALDWIN: He gave him credit.

BASH: And he gave him credit for it. And then the next sentence was, but we have to not pretend that there's not a divide here that we need to try to close. BALDWIN: Unify.

BASH: So, I really -- I think that not just him, but also Trump this morning on "NEW DAY" said some things, like he was blindsided, but then also said kind of we will see what happens.

BALDWIN: What about also, Nia, what he said about -- he's obviously very close with Mitt Romney. Mitt Romney has been a name that has been floated as a potential third-party candidate.

And I believe the word he used -- Sara Murray and I were just chatting -- that would be a disaster. A disaster. He's saying so.

HENDERSON: That's right. He is saying no.

And if you flash back, there was also this idea that Paul Ryan would sort of be a white knight, that somebody could come in and rescue the party from Donald Trump and he might be able to be that figure at a contested convention.

We all know that there's not going to be a contested convention, Paul Ryan very much saying that the person who should be the face of the party is the person who wins. And that of course will be Donald Trump.

So, yes, in some ways, not a surprise that he has said this would be a disaster. I think most Republicans know that it would be a disaster in terms of probably splitting off some of that vote and certainly handing the White House to Hillary Clinton.

But a lot of Republicans also think that all of these disaffected never Trump Republicans have to have some sort of vehicle for their votes and some kind of shell for what they think is going to be the Republican Party post-Trump.

But, yes, I thought it was a great interview. The other thing I thought that was striking about Paul Ryan is him saying he didn't really know Donald Trump that well. He's almost framing this Thursday summit--

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: Like a get-to-know-you.

HENDERSON: Yes, a get-to-know-you.

BASH: I agree.

BALDWIN: Yes.

HENDERSON: And certainly calming down some of the temperatures, as Dana talked about.

BALDWIN: OK. Let's move from the Trump-Ryan meeting to a visual, if I may. Guys, let's throw up the live pictures. Hillary Clinton, she is

speaking today. She is still speaking. This is Loudoun County, Virginia. This is outside of Washington, D.C., to a bunch of women in a coffee shop. And we saw the broader shot. I don't know. My eyeball estimate would be maybe 25 people in the room. I could be wrong.

You when will we ever see Donald Trump in an intimate setting such as this speaking to the people?

(LAUGHTER)

BALDWIN: Dana, you laugh. But I'm being serious. What's the pop-up video--

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: -- for that?

(LAUGHTER)

(CROSSTALK)

BASH: I don't know.

I think we might have to wait a little longer for that pop-up video. He did some retailing -- and I emphasize some -- when he started to do not as well in some of the primary states. He did more of the traditional what we call in the biz OTR, off the record, stops, meaning it wasn't a regular part of his schedule and he would stop and do a few things, but certainly nothing, nothing like his opponents did, and nothing like most modern-day candidates do.

So I don't know. It's not his thing. It is not his strength. He is a performer, and he does very well at the rallies, and I have been to many, many of them, where he kind of, you know, stokes the crowd and works off the crowd and kind of from a distance.

So, I'm not sure that there's going to be a lot of pressure on him to do that, because I'm not sure people are really pining for it who support him. That could change.

BALDWIN: Do you think, Nia, that there would be an advantage at all to do that? Dana's exactly right. He stands up here. He says look at all the crowds. And that's really sort of a selling point I think for him and some of his supporters.

But might there be an advantage in sitting in a quiet room with 20 people?

HENDERSON: Yes, you know, I think so. It would certainly give a different side of him.

And we have seen some of that in some of the town halls we have had with his family, for instance. And it certainly, I think, would make him look more relatable. Right? BASH: Yes.

HENDERSON: You have never really seen him sitting at a table just going back and forth with people in sort of a dinner table kind of setting, a restaurant type of setting.

[15:25:04]

But, again, as Dana said, he is a performer. And in some ways, you wonder if that would kind of take the oxygen out of the room and sort of take the wind out of the sails, but I think Hillary Clinton making -- you know, taking advantage of one of her strengths, which is these town hall, these sort of town hall small settings and with women there in Virginia.

BALDWIN: Yes.

BASH: And, you know, just to add to that, as we're looking at these pictures, Nia, you said relatable. And that was exactly the word that was coming to my mind, because that is an important thing for Hillary Clinton to build upon, that she is somebody who people can kind of get to know and understand.

It also allows her -- if you look at her -- we can't hear what she is saying, but we can just imagine -- it allows her to do what she does best, which is to get a question and then just kind of expound on it based on the very deep policy background that she has across the board.

BALDWIN: OK.

BASH: That's not Donald Trump's thing. It's not what he's trying to do. It's not what he's trying to be.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: He may not need to, may not need to.

BASH: Exactly.

Dana and Nia, thank you both so much. Political pop-up video, it's a new -- it's the birth of a new show live on CNN.

BASH: Sounds like a new show.

BALDWIN: I like it. The boss' office right around my corner, we will see how that goes.

(CROSSTALK)

(LAUGHTER)

BALDWIN: Thank you so much.

BASH: Thank you.

Coming up next, North Carolina, this is big news today, North Carolina's governor suing the feds over the so-called bathroom law that critics say discriminates against transgendered people.

Now the U.S. attorney general, Loretta Lynch, is expected to hit back. We are minutes away from this news conference. We will take it live coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)