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Cruz Campaigns in Indiana; Clinton Looks Past Sanders; Sanders' Presidential Race. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired May 2, 2016 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[14:00:00] BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: Here we go. You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin. Thank you so much for tuning in on this Monday afternoon.

Hey, just a head's up, we're listening for Ted Cruz. Any moment now he'll be speaking from an event, Ft. Wayne, Indiana. Of course, on the eve of what many observers are calling a make or break event for him in the race for president. The Indiana primary, tomorrow, 57 critical Republican delegates are all up for grabs and the Texas senator, he needs every single one of them and then some. He needs the momentum of a win after his recent losses in the northeast. And even Senator Cruz has pumped up how important Indiana is to him, campaigning with the state's governor today. But a new poll shows Ted Cruz losing in Indiana by a whopping 15 points to, you guessed it, Donald Trump. And check out just moments ago what Cruz had to face on the campaign trail. A wall of Donald Trump supporters.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. TED CRUZ (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: And I'm running to be everyone's president, those who vote for me and those who don't vote for me.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We don't want you.

CRUZ: Well, you're entitled to your view, sir, and I will respect it. In fact, I will respect -

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do the math.

CRUZ: I will respect your right.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do the math. You asked Kasich to drop out. It's your turn.

CRUZ: Well -

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Take your own word.

CRUZ: Now, I'm curious, sir, when -

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Once again, lyin' Ted.

CRUZ: What do you like about Donald Trump?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Everything.

CRUZ: Give me one.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Everything.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: CNN's Sunlen Serfaty, she is in Indianapolis following the Cruz campaign.

Sunlen, you have been with Team Cruz, you know, following their every move for months and months. Can you tell after, you know, weeks, strings of losses, tomorrow's a huge day for them, is there a tone change at all?

SUNLEN SERFATY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: There absolutely is, Brooke. I have to say, coming from the candidate himself, you can sense in these kind of last, final hours here in Indiana, he's really speaking in much more dire terms about what tomorrow means and really ratcheting up the rhetoric, you know, saying tomorrow if Donald Trump wins here it could be all but decided who the nominee is. So really trying to make sure that he gets his voters out to the polls and kind of amping up his rhetoric.

And I do think it's very notable, you know, that the Cruz campaign has really called in their whole contingent of suppers, not only Senator Cruz, but Governor Pence here in Indiana. He's campaigning with Carly Fiorina. His wife out on the campaign trail, too. Really putting everything they've got into this state.

And Senator Cruz has been, you know, really faced with beating back questions not only from reporters about his path forward but I think notably from his voters. Just a few minutes ago one of his campaign trail stops, one of the voters that he spoke to said, look, Donald Trump is ahead of you, man. Kind of like questioning, what are you doing here? And he said, you know, I don't think the polls are accurate. They're all over the place. He thinks their polls are neck and neck. But certainly it is significant that many of the polls show him well behind Donald Trump here in a state where he knows he needs to win.

Brooke.

BALDWIN: We are watching and waiting for him and the governor there in Indiana momentarily in Fort Wayne for now. Sunlen, thank you.

Meantime, Ted Cruz just put the pressure on himself to perform in Indiana. He has been hitting the trail there for weeks and Donald Trump has also really has a lot at stake among the Hoosiers. Listen to both of the candidates.

Let's continue on. Joining me now, editor in chief of "The Hill," Bob Cusack, Tana Goertz, former contestant on "The Apprentice" and a current senior adviser to the Trump campaign, and Bob Barr, a former Georgia congressman who supports Ted Cruz.

So, welcome to all of you.

BOB BARR, FORMER CONGRESSMAN WHO SUPPORTS TED CRUZ: Thank you.

BOB CUSACK, EDITOR IN CHIEF, "THE HILL": Hey, Brooke.

TANA GOERTZ, SENIOR TRUMP ADVISER: Thank you.

BALDWIN: Let me begin with my fellow Georgian on the panel here. Congressman, let me begin with you. You know, you just heard Sunlen say it's dire for the Cruz camp. My question is, what happens if Senator Cruz loses what he has called a must-win state?

BARR: Of course there's more than one scenario here. There are 57 total delegates that are up for grabs tomorrow in Indiana, but they're going to be largely apportioned by congressional district. So it isn't as cut and dry as some of the - the prognosticators would have you believe. Senator Cruz, as you indicated, has been traveling and working the state at the grassroots level for many, many weeks, traveling now with the state's very popular Governor Mike Pence and Carly Fiorina. So the internal polling that we've - that we've seen - that I've seen has it very close but we feel very confident that - that Senator Cruz will win and do very well across the state and certain areas in particular in congressional districts. Sufficient to, you know, keep up the momentum that he saw this past weekend with some of the state conventions and caucuses to continue on to the next big prize out on the West Coast.

BALDWIN: You know, Tana, the congressman is right, it's winner take all in the different congressional districts. So, you know, the Cruz team could steal some of those delegates away from - from Mr. Trump. How do you see it? Do you see it as closely as the Cruz team does?

[14:05:12] GOERTZ: No, absolutely not. We definitely are very confident and confidence is a great thing and I'm happy that the Cruz camp is confident. But the Trump campaign is very, very confident. We have all the faith in the world in the people in - of the people in Indiana and we know that they're hard working and we know that they're very excited about voting for Donald Trump, who will create jobs and make the economy so much better. And - and we are very excited and we expect it to be a huge victory just like it was last Tuesday.

BALDWIN: What about, Bob Cusack, to you, my neutral voice on all of this. So - so, you know, we talked so much, obviously, about the potential for a contested convention in Cleveland and there were all these headlines over the weekend from "The New York Times" about the delegates, right? So - and the fact that some of these delegates I believe their phraseology was they're softening. They're softening for Trump. They're changing their minds if it were to come to what, you know, the Cruz camp is hoping for, a second ballot at a contested convention. You know, perhaps feeling the pressure of the popular vote going toward Donald Trump. What do you know about that?

CUSACK: Well, I think over the last couple of months, at first you saw the establishment kind of warm to Donald Trump and then they said, no, it's actually better if maybe Cruz wins. And now I think they're shifting back. And why? Well, because Trump is winning. The so-called Acela primaries, he swept all five states. He's looking like the favorite now, clear favorite in Indiana. But Ted Cruz has been clutch. He had to win Iowa and he won Iowa. Had to win Wisconsin. He won Wisconsin. But Trump has the momentum and I do think, as Cruz has alluded to, this is make or break for Ted Cruz and this is the knockout punch that Donald Trump wants to deliver, has been waiting to deliver and might deliver it tomorrow.

BALDWIN: You know, a lot of people respect former Republican and presidential hopeful and former Utah Governor John Huntsman. A pretty moderate Republican. This is a quote that we found in Politico. Quote, "we've had enough intraparty fighting. Now's the time to stitch together a winning coalition and it's been clear almost from the beginning that Donald Trump has the ability to assemble a non- traditional bloc of supporters."

Congressman, you know, I know you'll say, you know, the Cruz campaign, they will fighting sort of tooth and nail, you know, to pull it out at a contested convention, but what happens if Ted Cruz becomes the spoiler here?

BARR: Ted Cruz will not become the spoiler. What he will become, and we feel very confident that going into the convention in Cleveland, neither he nor Mr. Trump will have amassed a majority of the delegates, which is, according to the rules and procedure, absolutely essential. So Ted Cruz is not going to be a spoiler. What he is going to do is to continue to marshal his resources, to continue to convince delegates and voters at the grassroots level that the consistent conservative message that he brings is far better for this party and will, in fact, be far stronger against Hillary Clinton, who poll after poll show beating Mr. Trump in the fall.

BALDWIN: You know, you bring that up and, thank you, I wanted to ask about the hypotheticals with a Hillary Clinton versus Trump scenario. I mean, you know, you can already tell on the Democratic side, even though Bernie Sanders says, listen, he's going all the way to Philadelphia, you know, Hillary Clinton is already really starting to pivot to the general.

Tana, what does the Trump campaign need to do to change that because he is losing in those hypotheticals against the former secretary of state?

GOERTZ: Well, I mean, Hillary doesn't really have an opponent because she is doing so well against Bernie. Mr. Trump and the campaign leaders are strictly focused -

BALDWIN: Well, Bernie Sanders would disagree with you.

GOERTZ: Well, I know, but, I mean, you know, she's winning and she's crushing the elections on their side so well. So, you know, it's a one woman race on her side. We still have, well, half, one and a half men in the race that we have to compete against, so we need to win Indiana. And that is our focus right now is winning Indiana. We still have competitors that have teamed up, formed this alliance, which, in my opinion, in a lot of people's opinion, was a failed alliance. So our focus is Indiana right now. We are not looking at the general

election just yet because we have got to make the people of Indiana proud. We've got Bobby Knight and all those people that have surrounded us and have gotten 100 percent behind Mr. Trump in the last four rallies that he has. So we are completely dedicated and focused to the states that we have got to get through and how - show the American voters in those states that we haven't been to yet what Mr. Trump will do for them. So, that is our focus and our priority right now. And - and as we move a little closer, and we do know that he is the nominee, then I'm' more than happy to share with you what - what we're going to do in regards to Hillary Clinton.

BALDWIN: OK. Talking about, though, the general election, Bob Cusack, this is my final question. I think that "The New York Times" over the weekend, they're asking prominent Republicans, you know, would you sign on to, would you consider running on Mr. Trump's ticket, met with a resounding, no thanks. Senator Lindsey Graham always with the zingers. This is what the senator told MSNBC. Quote, "if you vote for Trump as a Republican, you're buying a ticket on the Titanic."

[14:10:15] But, Bob, I mean, if Trump is going to be the guy on the Republican side, wouldn't the Republican Party want their best foot forward on that ticket to take it all the way to the White House?

CUSACK: Well, I think some, Brooke, but some Republicans like Lindsey Graham are already thinking about 2020 and think that there's - he has no shot to win. This is going to be Donald Trump's challenge if he is the nominee. He's got to unify the party. There are going to be some people that will get behind Donald Trump that maybe you wouldn't have thought they would a few months ago, but then there are going to be others, like Lindsey Graham, like Bill Kristol, that will be never Trump and never Trump means never. But that's going to be the next phase, I think, for Donald Trump is unifying most of this party and making - putting the spotlight on Hillary Clinton and - and from the Republican standpoint, OK, let's unify against her. We'll see if that argument works.

BALDWIN: OK. Again, we're watching and waiting to see the Texas senator, Ted Cruz, speaking in Ft. Wayne. I do want to just play, as we are the day before the all-important Indiana primary, let's listen to Donald Trump speaking moments ago in Indianapolis. Here he was.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Which does mean a lot. And, you know, that's very exciting to me. And, don't forget, there's a lot of states left. And in the history of Republican Party, I'll have the all-time record.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you still think Mike Tyson got a raw deal? Has he endorsed you?

TRUMP: I don't know anything about it. I know he endorsed me. I heard he endorsed me. I don't know anything about his trial. I really don't.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Why was Bobby Knight (INAUDIBLE) to endorse you (INAUDIBLE) representative of (INAUDIBLE)?

TRUMP: Well, I think Bobby Knight's enthusiasm is that he wants to see Indiana and the country win again. And, you know, he's an amazing competitor. He's a - he's a really smart guy and a really tough guy. And Bobby knight, I mean the reason it was so enthusiastic, he wants to see the country win again. So -

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE).

TRUMP: And he knows it's going to win. If I'm run - if I'm involved, we're going to win. And we're going to bring back our jobs and we're not going to lose jobs like we're losing right now because everyone is leaving our country. And that's sad.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Interesting he brings up Bobby Knight, infamous basketball coach, you know, known for tossing chairs but really beloved, especially among a number of Hoosiers. Interesting to see what - which endorsement will matter most come tomorrow, whether it's the governor, who supports Ted Cruz, or the legendary Bobby Knight, who supports this man, Donald Trump.

Remember, and, by the way, thanks to Bob Cusack, Tana Goertz, and bob Barr for that.

Tomorrow is extraordinarily important. Indiana primary tomorrow. Special live coverage here on CNN begins at 4:00 Eastern.

Meantime, coming up, more from that tense face to face encounter moments ago between Ted Cruz and those Donald Trump supporters in Indiana.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So why do you support Trump? Why do you?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Our Second Amendment's my main thing. He's the only one. That guy says he's going to take care of it. He ain't going to do nothing. He's going to let them take everything we got from us.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Could Republicans have their nomination locked up before the Democrats? Senator Bernie Sanders making a bold prediction, declaring there will be a contested convention. He's holding a rally minutes from now. All of this as Hillary Clinton is now mobilizing her campaign and pivoting toward November and the general election.

Also, five years ago, President Barack Obama gave the order to kill Osama bin Laden. A decision that would define his legacy and change the global war on terror. CNN now goes one on one with the president of the United States for a rare interview in the White House situation room. Do not miss this.

I'm Brooke Baldwin. You're watching CNN. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:17:51] BALDWIN: Welcome back. You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

Indiana, Indiana. I'm saying this all the next two hours. This is why this is so, so important, the big primary tomorrow. Bernie Sanders also supposed to take to the stage in Ft. Wayne, Indiana, as well ahead of a primary he says he will win, vowing he won't back down despite trailing Hillary Clinton by more than 700 pledged delegates and super delegates.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: It is virtually impossible for Secretary Clinton to reach the majority of convention delegates by June 14th with pledged delegates alone. The convention will be a contested contest.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Still, despite that, former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton is looking past her rival. She is focusing now specifically on Donald Trump looking ahead to a general election matchup.

Jeff Zeleny, CNN's senior Washington correspondent, is standing by there.

Jeff Zeleny, yes, I mean, is - we've heard the Bernie sanders camp for a while say, you know, listen, we're going all the way to July, doubling down on that. Is he really banking on Secretary Clinton not, you know, reaching that magic number of delegates?

JEFF ZELENY, CNN SENIOR WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: Well, Brooke, a couple of things here. One, it's definitely Bernie Sanders' right to go to the end of the process. A lot of his supporters want him to do that. And he does have a lot of supporters out there. He is getting big crowds across Indiana. He'll be having a very big rally I'm told tonight right here in Indianapolis and in a short time in Ft. Wayne.

But the translation here of Hillary Clinton not having the majority of the delegates is this. You - in the Democratic Party rules, you combine the regular pledged delegates with super delegates, those party officials who vote here. And Secretary Clinton is almost certain to have those. In fact, she will likely have these in a couple weeks or so. And going back to 2008, that campaign that we all watched so carefully, Barack Obama did not have a majority of pledge delegates alone. He had a majority of pledged delegates and super delegates before he got to the convention.

So, Bernie Sanders is wrong when he saying that it is going to be a contested convention. Of course, he can sort of raise that issue there. But Hillary Clinton, by all mathematical accounting, will have a majority of pledged and super delegates here. So the party is still going to sort of fight and work this out here, but it is different than what we're seeing on the Republican side. Hillary Clinton is just shy - about 200 delegates shy or so of reaching that magic number of 2,383. And mathematically speaking, it is so, so tough for Bernie Sanders.

[14:20:23] That said, Brooke, he could still win here tomorrow in Indiana. He could do well in some of these states coming up. But mathematically speaking, it's very, very tough for him.

BALDWIN: Thank you for spelling all that out for us, all of it coming down to math, as we well know. Jeff Zeleny, thank you, my friend.

John Avlon, let me bring you in, CNN political analyst and editor in chief of "The Daily Beast."

John Avlon, happy Monday.

JOHN AVLON, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Brooke, happy Monday.

BALDWIN: Happy math Monday because that's what I want to - that's what I want to get straight to and I'm so glad Jeff Zeleny sort of spelled it out. So even though Bernie Sanders maybe if sort of that sense of what you wish will happen will come true, you know, that Hillary Clinton won't get the remaining 200, and therefore he will, you know, have that contested convention in Philadelphia. If that's not really a possibility, then why is he out there saying that?

AVLON: Because he's trying to keep hope alive, as Jesse Jackson might have said in another time, but hope is not a strategy. And you can't slice and dice the numbers however you'd like and say, well, she's not going to hit the numbers absent super delegates because they exist. You can't just pretend they don't.

Look, he's always been running to move forward a progressive agenda inside the Democratic Party. He's been very effective at harnessing that and creating a real debate about issues and moving Hillary Clinton to the left. The question now really will be, at the convention, how is that played out in the rules, in the policies, in the platforms adopted by the Democratic Party? But he - you can't spin your way to saying this is - he's in a stronger position than he is in. you start looking like bad -- Baghdad Bob at some point. And, so, you know, we'll see what happens in Indiana. It is too close to say for sure how this is going to go down. We've see Michigan polls be dramatically off, but - but, you know, he's got to hope for a big win otherwise the momentum and the math get even more daunting all - all hopes, intentions and spin aside.

BALDWIN: OK. Keeping hope alive. So Bernie Sanders, he's thinking July. Hillary Clinton, she's already thinking November. We're now seeing, you know, her camp really pivoting, moving - moving some of her teams into this - these key general election states.

AVLON: Yes.

BALDWIN: States that have, you know, swung between Republicans and Democrats in recent cycles. What states are in play, John? Should it be a Donald Trump/Hillary Clinton matchup? AVLON: Well, look, the historical swing states are pretty clear. If

you look at the last four cycles, you always come down to the same key numbers of states. You've got North Carolina. you've got Florida. You've got Ohio. Out west you've got New Mexico and Colorado. New Mexico - Iowa, New Hampshire. So it's spread all over the map, but in many of these states, independents are a plurality, if not an outright majority of voters. So she's going to - elections are won or lost by the candidate who can appeal to swing voters in swing states. And that means that both candidates can't simply be concerned about shoring up their base. They need to build broad coalitions beyond their base. And that means moving to the center, whether the activist class in both parties like it or not.

Hillary Clinton, obviously her husband was known for reaching out to the center and realigning American politics and bringing the Democrat Party back to the center after it has been marginalized and lost three consecutive elections by more than 40 states. So you look at the ground game in those states, you look at the policies and the people they're trying to reach. Donald Trump begins under water with a lot of key demographics in these states that he's going to need to win. He will, if the primaries are anything to judge by, be able to make gains among white working class voters, but that could be offset by Hispanics, by suburban voters, by women, by independents. Those are the real key things to look at. It's demographics, it's math, it's momentum. But now we're - already Hillary Clinton realizes that her best case right now to bridge that enthusiasm gap is to already start running against Donald Trump.

BALDWIN: And she is doing that. And she's also, as we have seen her on those debate stages in the meantime, you know, bear hugged President Obama, right? She wants to keep some of the momentum that he really cemented all those years ago intact.

AVLON: Yes.

BALDWIN: And so she made news. She was at this NAACP dinner in Detroit over the weekend and really here most dire words yet against a possible Trump presidency. Here she was.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HILLARY CLINTON (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We cannot let Barack Obama's legacy fall into Donald Trump's hands! We can't let all the hard work and progress we've achieved over the last seven and a half years be torn away.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: You know, this notion of obviously she's aligning herself with the president, but does that work for her? Because there are many, many people out there who do not have the love for Hillary Clinton, certainly ready to see President Obama go. What - how difficult is that for her walking that line?

[14:25:03] AVLON: Well, look, she's not in a position of some, you know, people trying to distance themselves from the incumbent. The incumbent's very popular among - President Obama's very popular among the Democratic base. His numbers have actually gone up in the fourth quarter of his presidency, which is unusual.

BALDWIN: He was joking about that Saturday night. My popularity on the way out.

AVLON: Yes, you know - yes, and, you know, that is unusual, right? I mean he's turned the stereotype of the lame duck presidency in the fourth quarter on its head by really approaching in it a more -- a more liberated manner when it comes to perusing policies that he might have considered more polarizing. And she is trying to run essentially for the third term of both her husband and President Obama.

Now, Donald Trump makes a pretty effective foil if you're - if you're speaking to, you know, African-American civil rights groups because he has not shown much of an interest or an aptitude in building his coalition out to Hispanics, to African-Americans. And that has not gone lost. It's not simply enough to trot out Omarosa in the hope that that will, you know, serve as a coalition director with the African- American community. Republicans already have a deep deficit when it comes to more diverse communities. And Hillary Clinton's trying to solidify that and then build beyond it.

BALDWIN: John Avalon, thank you very much. Nice to see you and the misses this weekend in Washington.

AVLON: Thanks, Brooke.

BALDWIN: Thank you.

AVLON: You too.

BALDWIN: Coming up next, the challenge ahead for Ted Cruz. Polls indicate he is trailing in Indiana. He is getting snubbed by a key group that has supported him in other states. What is happening on conservative radio in Indiana? It's fascinating. That's next.

Plus, we got him. Remember that? The words President Obama uttered to tell the world the most wanted man, Osama bin Laden, was killed. Today marks five years since that SEAL Team Six raid and the president spoke exclusively to CNN's Peter Bergen about what it was like watching live from the situation room as the deadly assault went down. More of that interview coming up.

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