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CNN NEWSROOM

Trump Rails on Party Bosses and Rigged System; Clinton, Sanders Battling for Indiana; Aired 10-10:30a ET

Aired May 2, 2016 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

[10:00:03] CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: Happening now in NEWSROOM.

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: If we win Indiana, it's over.

COSTELLO: Tell that to Ted Cruz.

SEN. TED CRUZ (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I have to tell you, I have faith in Hoosiers.

COSTELLO: The Texas senator blitzing the state in the last-minute battle for votes.

Plus, Hillary Clinton taking on Trump, too.

HILLARY CLINTON (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We cannot let Barack Obama's legacy fall into Donald Trump's hands.

COSTELLO: But rival Bernie Sanders says she's facing another fight first.

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: The convention will be a contested contest.

COSTELLO: And what's inside Prince's secret vault? The battle for the music icon's estate could get very, very ugly.

Let's talk. Live in the CNN NEWSROOM.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COSTELLO: And good morning, I'm Carol Costello. Thank you so much for joining me.

As Indiana prepares to vote Donald Trump goes on the attack railing against what he calls a rigged delegate system and this time laying the blame on Republican Party bosses.

Here he is on "NEW DAY."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: The bosses are trying to run it. You know, it's a rigged party. It's a whole rigged situation. The bosses, like in Arizona -- the bosses -- I win Arizona in a landslide. I beat Cruz so badly it's almost ridiculous, and then the bosses have delegates -- they have a delegate -- a crooked delegate system where they go in and they try and get delegates so they play games.

But, I'll tell you what, the voters wouldn't stand for it. You know, when you win by millions of votes -- and that's what I've been saying. It's a rigged system. The bosses want to pick whoever they want to pick.

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: So --

TRUMP: What's the purpose of going through the primaries?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: But Ted Cruz is not ready to throw in the towel in Indiana. He and his surrogates are fanning out across the state today to try to keep the stop Trump movement alive.

Phil Mattingly is following that part of the story. He joins us now. Good morning.

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Carol.

For Donald Trump and Ted Cruz there have really been two campaigns. The campaigns in the primaries and then the one that Donald Trump continues to rail about. The fight behind the scenes for delegates.

As far as Donald Trump is concerned it's the first one that matters most and that means there are problems for Ted Cruz. Polling showing Ted Cruz's opportunity in Indiana starting to slip away. An opportunity that he and his team desperately need to continue their pathway to block Donald Trump. Donald Trump is saying if he wins Indiana the race is essentially over.

Now Cruz's team has placed themselves well in the state and Carol, as you noted, his surrogates are spreading out all over today in the final 24-hour blitz. Ted Cruz making the point this weekend on "STATE OF THE UNION" that the Republican Party is coalescing behind him and not just in Indiana. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CRUZ: Well, it's been a very good week for us. We're seeing Republicans continuing to unite behind our campaign. Obviously in Indiana Governor Pence is incredibly well-respected. Having his support I think is very, very meaningful as voters head into Election Day on Tuesday.

Here in California having Governor Pete Wilson's support is a big, big deal. He is someone who's earned a lot of respect in this state and it's very meaningful. California is likely to decide this entire battle.

(END VIDEO CLIP) MATTINGLY: Now, Carol, before California comes to Indiana Ted Cruz getting another key endorsement there from their governor. Mike Pence even though somewhat tepid at least as we initially saw. But Mike Pence on the campaign trail today with Ted Cruz and the reality remains this. In order to get to California where there's 172 delegates at stake and real opportunities to block Donald Trump but only if Ted Cruz can win Indiana. That's why the stakes are so high here today. 57 delegates up at stake when voters go to polls tomorrow. And Ted Cruz needs more of them than Donald Trump. That's for sure.

COSTELLO: All right. Phil Mattingly, thanks so much.

Blue-collar voters may be the deciders in Indiana and Mr. Trump knows that. That's why he accused China of, quote, "raping the United States" and doubled down on his threats to punish American companies if they move their factories out of the country.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: The other thing, how, it's very simple we're going to put -- we're going to make them pay. There's going to be consequences. You're not just going to take your company, move to Mexico, make air conditioners and now start selling them in our country. And not have consequences. The consequences are a tariff or tax. And if you don't do that you'll lose all of your businesses because our businesses are moving out of our country and they're moving out fast.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: With me now to talk about the primary race in Indiana, host of the "David Gregory Show" podcast, David Gregory, Ken Blackwell, he is the senior adviser to the anti-Trump PAC Our Principles, and Joseph Borelli, he's the co-chair of the Donald Trump leadership team in New York.

Welcome to all of you.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thanks.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Good morning.

COSTELLO: Good morning. So, David, it is the economy, stupid as always or will social issues bring evangelicals to the polls in droves.

DAVID GREGORY, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, if we're talking just about Indiana, I think it actually transcends that in this race. You have a unique circumstance where this is not an ideological purity test in Indiana and it hasn't been that way for a lot of these primaries so far with Donald Trump in the race.

[10:05:04] What you just played there, an argument, an economic populist argument that he is making about trade and its effect on jobs, that's as much about Trump projecting strength. Being tough. It's a personal characteristics that his supporters and others are really starting to be drawn to because that's something that's much different from whether he would be able to get that kind of policy through a Congress, but of course the economy is always a huge issue, becomes a huge issue for the fall. How you get jobs back.

How you get more people feeling like they are involved in economic recovery and I think trade and the loss of jobs through manufacturing becomes something that Trump talks a lot about. Certainly the rest of the primary race and assuming he's the nominee. All the way to the fall.

COSTELLO: Well, an awful lot of factories have moved out of the state of Indiana, Ken. So is Ted Cruz wrong to focus so much on social issues and not just on the economy?

KEN BLACKWELL, SENIOR ADVISER, OUR PRINCIPLES PAC: Yes. Yes, I don't think Ted Cruz has --

JOSEPH BORELLI, CO-CHAIR, DONALD TRUMP NY CAMPAIGN: I don't think so.

COSTELLO: Ken, go ahead.

BLACKWELL: I don't think Ted Cruz is making that false dichotomy. This is about the size and intrusion of government. It's about the rule of law and it's about free markets, and so I don't think you have to choose between religious liberty and free markets. This is all about the size of government and its intrusion in the marketplace and in our lives. And therefore you have to position Trump as being the king of cronyism, to being an advocate for big government. He only basically makes the distinction between himself and Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama by saying he can make big government work more efficiently. So that's the issue here.

COSTELLO: So why, Ken -- why, Ken, does this NBC-Marist poll show Ted Cruz running behind Donald Trump in double digits? If that's the strategy it's not working.

BLACKWELL: Well, no, I think look. I think you do -- a Real Clear Politics average of polls, Trump has a slight lead but the fact of the matter is that he doesn't have a superior ground game and so that's why this is going to come down to a nail biter and I think that Cruz and the stop Trump forces will prevail in Indiana and live to fight a raw battle in California. So this notion that it is not working is not proven out yet in fact.

COSTELLO: So, Joseph, will Indiana be a nail biter?

BORELLI: Yes, look, the Cruz campaign made three big Hail Mary plays in Indiana. The VP pick with Fiorina, the Cruz-Kasich collusion and also the one that people aren't talking about is this time wasted on social issues like transgender bathrooms. Time and time again the polls have shown that people, specifically Republican voters, haven't been interested in talking about social issues. They want to talk about the economy especially in a state like Indiana.

So when you see the polls break towards Trump in this stage of the game, not only in Indiana but in California as was just mentioned, I think it's no surprise that the candidate who's speaking more directly to people affected by job losses is doing better.

GREGORY: I just think, Carol, I think look, the Cruz --

COSTELLO: Sure.

GREGORY: The Cruz strategy in Indiana is rather simple. He is running an ideological -- conservative ideological campaign. He's got Governor Pence who's a strong social conservative who gave him a rather tepid endorsement but an endorsement and is appearing with him. You know, he's got to deliver those social conservative votes. If you think about -- who could get elected as governor in Indiana? Cruz probably more likely than Trump but that assumes a different kind of math.

Even social conservatives up until now have been voting for Donald Trump in big numbers. And Wisconsin was an exception, Texas was an exception, but this is an area where the typical rules do not apply. Trump is winning across the board and it's why Indiana is so important. If he can win in a social conservative state after winning, really dominating the northeast it's almost impossible to see how he doesn't get the nomination for -- the reason of just how many delegates you get, number one, and number two that it becomes a narrative issue. It really does kind of suck the wind out of those anti-Trump forces if they can't win in a state like Indiana.

COSTELLO: Ken, if Ted Cruz does not win the Indiana primary, should he pull out?

BLACKWELL: Absolutely. This game is not over until it's over. And I --

COSTELLO: So you're saying he should not pull out? He should keep going even if he doesn't win?

BLACKWELL: Right.

COSTELLO: I just want to be clear. Should he stop his campaign if he loses Indiana.

BLACKWELL: Yes, absolutely. Because I think at the end of the day this is about can you stop Trump from getting 1237 and throw this into a convention? Does the hill gets steeper? Yes. But it is not over until Trump gets 1237 or better, and I just don't think that there's a path for him to get there if in fact everyone does his job.

COSTELLO: Joseph?

BORELLI: Yes, that's absurd.

[10:10:02] If Trump gets away with 40, 45, even 50 delegates from Indiana he's on a clear path to 1237. Especially given the polls in California are now breaking towards him again.

This is the typical Cruz tactic of hitting the talking points week after week after week but then the people actually in these states see and hear from Ted Cruz and they just don't vote for him. Maybe they don't like him, maybe they don't like what he's saying but time and time again we've seen states not support Ted Cruz.

COSTELLO: Well, Ken, I do want to ask you because --

(CROSSTALK)

BLACKWELL: But, no, this --

COSTELLO: You run a PAC that's sort of a never Trump PAC and it doesn't seem to be gaining much steam frankly. Donald Trump seems to be thwarting your effort.

BLACKWELL: No, it's not -- I don't run a never Trump PAC.

COSTELLO: I know. But it's a PAC against Trump.

BLACKWELL: Mine is not -- excuse me. Mine is not the never Trump camp. Mine is the stop Trump and to drive this into a contested convention. If Trump wins either the contested convention or if he wins 1237 then he is the candidate. But it won't be my father's Republican Party or the conservative movement of Ronald Reagan.

Here is a guy who is not ideologically consistent with the Republican Party platform. He attacks Republican rank and file members as well as Republican leaders. But he wants to be the standard bearer of this party.

Our goal is to in fact shine a light on Trump's inconsistencies when it comes to those things that have distinguished us from the Democrat Party. Pure and simple.

COSTELLO: So, David --

BLACKWELL: And I don't think he --

COSTELLO: Are Ken's tactics working?

BLACKWELL: I don't think he meets that test. Say it again?

COSTELLO: No, I'm -- David, are Ken's tactic's working? His PAC's efforts working.

GREGORY: Well, I mean, to some degree. Look, there is certainly support behind Ted Cruz and what Ken is saying is absolutely right which is kind of the rank and file of the Republican Party doesn't like Trump because he's not a conservative. He is barely a Republican. He has kind of post ideological. I think his supporters would argue that, too. He's obviously a Republican running as a Republican, but he is not an ideological candidate and that is why I think -- I know, both Republican officials and establishment Republicans are starting to say look, we may be holding our nose a bit but this guy has some potential that we may not even be able to imagine in terms of how well he can do in November.

The fear among a lot of Republicans I talked to, Republican officials and otherwise, they feel that Ted Cruz is more of a staunch conservative, a movement conservative but he's someone who's rather predictable in how he would do in the fall which in their estimation is not very well. And I think that is some of what is hurting Ted Cruz right now.

COSTELLO: I have to leave it there. David Gregory, Ken Blackwell, Joseph Borelli, thanks to all of you.

Still to come in the NEWSROOM, new campaign promises for a contested convention, and I'm not talking about the Republicans.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:16:57] COSTELLO: Bernie Sanders says it's not over. Far from it. Sanders is only down by 4 percentage points in Indiana and he's promising this state will not be his last no matter what. Still it seems Clinton is looking past her party rival focusing her attacks solely on Donald Trump.

Chris Frates live in Indianapolis with more on that. Good morning.

CHRIS FRATES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hey, good morning, Carol. You're exactly right. Bernie Sanders campaigning very hard here in Indiana, and acknowledging, though, that it's a long shot that he'll be able to win this nomination and if you take a look at the math that Sanders has going for him you start to understand why he has to win almost all the delegates left in this race in order to clinch that nomination.

Hillary Clinton, she needs to win just 20 percent of what's left but despite that Bernie Sanders is saying he is taking this all the way to the convention.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SANDERS: It is virtually impossible for Secretary Clinton to reach the majority of convention delegates by June 14th with pledged delegates alone. The convention will be a contested contest.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FRATES: Now Bernie Sanders also asking all the superdelegates in the states that he won to support him, but even if he were able to flip those Democratic power brokers, the math still wouldn't work out for him. And the other thing not really working out for him are the poll numbers. He is lagging Hillary Clinton here in Indiana, 50-46 in the latest NBC poll, and you know, Hillary Clinton is not even campaigning here in Indiana. She is starting to take shots at Donald Trump instead.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CLINTON: We're seeing violence. Violence at political rallies in our country. That's the kind of thing you see it on TV you assume it's some place far away, don't you? Well, this talk, this hateful talk about immigrants, about Muslims, about women. I mean, enough. Enough. That's not who we are.

(END VIDEO CLIP) FRATES: Now Donald Trump firing back, continuing to call Clinton "crooked Hillary" and saying that he is going to use some of the lines of attack that Sanders has used against Clinton in this primary season against her in the general election should he and her be the general election nominees going into November and that's not surprising. You know, he's been kind of echoing Bernie Sanders here for a little bit of time and Sanders defending himself and saying that he'll do whatever is necessary in order to beat Donald Trump in November or anybody else who is that GOP nominee.

But the one thing it looks like Sanders is not going to do, he's not going to drop out of this race early and clear the way for Hillary Clinton to turn and take on Donald Trump. He's staying through the convention -- Carol.

COSTELLO: Yes. All right. Chris Frates, reporting live this morning. Thank you so much.

With me now to talk about this and more, CNN political analyst and editor in chief of the "Daily Beast," John Avlon.

Hi, John.

JOHN AVLON, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Good morning, Carol.

COSTELLO: Good morning. So you hear Hillary Clinton, she's beginning to pivot.

[10:20:04] In fact I would say she has already pivoted. Is that a good thing for her?

AVLON: Yes. I think it's a smart thing for her. I mean, Hillary Clinton can best bridge the enthusiasm gap that saddled her -- that's she's been saddled with in the past by running against Donald Trump and she has done it even beginning in the New York primary. You'll remember she put out an ad that was essentially just a broad side attack against Donald Trump saying that he didn't represent New York values, the diversity, of pluralism, of tolerance. And so -- but now she's doubling down. She definitely has the general election in sight and that contrast is her best argument for turning her campaign into a crusade.

COSTELLO: OK. So you're talking about contrast. I want to play another -- something else that Hillary Clinton said at that NAACP gathering on Donald Trump. Let's listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CLINTON: We cannot let Barack Obama's legacy fall into Donald Trump's hands. We can't let all the hard work and progress we've achieved over the last seven and a half years be torn away.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: All right. I'm listening with one ear to Ted Cruz. He's in Indiana and he's talking right now and that's what we're seeing on the right hand side of the screen. He's trying to be optimistic, he's talking about jobs, we'll get to that, but let's finish up with the Hillary Clinton question here.

You know, some of what Donald Trump says, a lot of it, resonates with key voters that Hillary Clinton needs in her camp so she just can't talk about, you know, how she thinks Donald Trump's rhetoric is hateful and all. She has to talk about actual issues, too, doesn't she? Like trade. Right? Like jobs.

AVLON: Yes, of course. And look, I mean. Hillary Clinton, you know, among other things is a policy wonk. She's -- I think one of her problems as a campaigner is that she is not a natural campaigner, she's much more interested in governing, in policy in a year in which talking about policy hasn't exactly been elevated.

But, look, you know, the rules of American politics are pretty clear. You need to build a coalition beyond your base. You need to reach out to moderates in the middle class and while Donald Trump's campaign is arguing that they can make real inroads against white working class voters and therefore erode some of the Democrats' support, you know, he as a result of strategy and rhetoric to date, whether you're chalk it up to dog whistle or conscious, you know, appeals, hasn't really done anything to reach out to Hispanics, to African-Americans.

And Hillary Clinton is in a peculiar position of running for both her husband and Barack Obama's third term. So of course at the NCAA she's going to try -- sorry, NAACP, she's going to try to reach beyond her base and make that case.

COSTELLO: OK.

AVLON: That this is --

COSTELLO: OK. Well, let's --

AVLON: This is absolutely an insult to their effort.

COSTELLO: We got it. I just want our viewers to listen to Ted Cruz for just a second because he is also talking about jobs and the economy and his optimistic -- his optimism for a win in Indiana. Let's listen.

CRUZ: Rich New York big government liberals. Both of whom Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump support Planned Parenthood. Both of whom Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump have supported banning guns across America. Both of whom, Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump, are campaigning on raising taxes and on allowing people here illegally to become U.S. citizens then as the Republican Party we will have failed the voters.

Let's take the issue of taxes. An incredibly important issue for the voters here in Indiana. Donald Trump's sole economic policy proposal is a massive 40 percent tax increase on every American. A tariff that would be paid by every consumer when you go to the store and shop.

I don't think the people of Indiana need a 40 percent tax increase. I don't think the hard working Hoosier in this state can afford seeing their taxes going up 40 percent.

In contrast to Donald Trump's massive tax increase, as president I'm going to c your taxes. We're going to pass a simple flat tax where every American pays 10 percent, you fill out your taxes on a postcard and we're going to abolish the IRS.

That's what this election is about. It's not about more power in Washington. That is the Hillary Clinton approach. That is the Donald Trump approach. More and more power in Washington over your lives. Instead, I think this election is about getting Washington off of your back, getting it off of the back of small businesses, and unchaining the incredible ability of small business to generate jobs and raise wages.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: So any circumstance under which you would drop from the race before Cleveland?

CRUZ: I am in for the distance. As long as we have a viable path to victory I am competing until the end and the reason is simple. Listen, this isn't about me. It isn't about Donald Trump. It isn't about any of the candidates. This is about our country and our future. I'm not willing to give up on the Constitution and Bill of Rights. If Hillary Clinton or Donald Trump become president we will see liberals on the U.S. Supreme Court and we will see the Heller decision overruled which means the Second Amendment right to keep and bear arms will be stripped away from every law-abiding American.

[10:25:14] If we allow the next president to be Hillary Clinton or Donald Trump we will see the same economic stagnation, we will see taxes rising on the American people. We will see jobs going overseas. Donald Trump's massive tax increase would put us into a recession.

I'm fighting for the working men and women of this country. If we allow Hillary Clinton or Donald Trump to become president we will see America continue to abandon Israel. Both Hillary and Donald say they will be neutral between Israel and the Palestinians. I think it's high time we had a president who stands with Israel.

And both Hillary and Donald say they will keep in place this Iranian nuclear deal. If you agree with the Iranian nuclear deal, if you think it's a good idea to send $100 billion to the Ayatollah Khomeini, a radical Islamist terrorist who chants death to America, then you should vote for Donald or Hillary. As president I will rip to shreds this Iranian nuclear deal.

This election is about fundamental issues and at the end of the day it's about the good people of Indiana.

And let me ask every parent at home. Think forward to the next four years. Do you want to turn on the television and see a president, Republican or Democrat, who embarrasses you. Who would make you feel embarrassed if your children came and spoke the words uttered by the president.

You know the presidency we have had leaders who have inspired us. FDR told us the only thing we have to fear is fear itself. John F. Kennedy told us ask not what your country can do for you. Ask what you can do for your country.

The president has a unique role as a bully pulpit to speak out for our shared values. Now ask yourself, do you really want to go through the next four years with a president who, if your child came home and simply uttered the words coming out of that president's mouth would make you punish your child, would make you embarrassed for your child?

We need a president who unifies us. Who speaks to our better angels. Who speaks to our shared values. My priorities as president are jobs, freedom and security. Not a one of those is a narrow 51 percent wedge issue. Every one of those issues are broad unifying issues. 60 percent, 70 percent, 80 percent. Every American wants to see more jobs back in America. Wants to see wages rising.

It's one of the reasons why we're seeing such tremendous support not just from Republicans but from independents, from libertarians, from Democrats. At every event we have here in Indiana and across the country, Democrats come up and say, I have been a Democrat my whole life, now I'm with you because these are the values of America. And we need to bring Americans together.

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Last question.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: You spent six minutes talking about the race and then you suggested that the country can't afford to give into evil. That evil that you're talking, was that Donald Trump or what was that?

CRUZ: You know what? I trust the good people of Indiana to differentiate. We are not a country built on hatred. We are not a country built on anger, on pettiness. We are not a country built on bullying. We are not a country about selfishness.

No country in the history of the world has spilled more blood, saving the lives of others. Preserving freedom that has America and I'll tell you my most fundamental belief, I believe in America. I believe in the American people. We are not a bitter, angry, petty, bigoted people. That is not America. I reject that vision of America.

We are the land that 1957 gave my father as an immigrant from Cuba hope and a dream. A teenage immigrant with $100 in his underwear washing dishes with nothing, could achieve anything. That's who we are. That is who we are as Americans.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: So who --

CRUZ: We are not --

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Who is this evil?

CRUZ: We are not an angry, ugly people. And the people of Indiana -- the people of Indiana have good judgment. Have good values. The people of Indiana are the heartland of this country. And we have a choice. We have a choice about our national character. Who we will be. And I believe in the people of this nation with all my heart. It's why I'm so proud this week to be standing shoulder-to-shoulder with Indiana's governor Mike Pence. It's why I'm so proud this week to be standing shoulder-to-shoulder with my vice presidential nominee Carly Fiorina.

We are seeing the Republican Party unite. We are seeing us unite behind positive values and real solutions to bring jobs back to America. If you care about jobs, if you care about wages --