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Baltimore TV Station Evacuated; Jeb Bush Speaks Out; Boehner Slams Cruz. Aired 3-3:30p ET

Aired April 28, 2016 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[15:00:02]

BRIAN STELTER, CNN SENIOR MEDIA CORRESPONDENT: What is so strange about the situation is that this man apparently drove up in a car, parked, and the car was lit on fire in some manner, in some form.

It wasn't a big fire, but it was significant enough that fire officials had to put out that fire. Then he went into the lobby, he confronted a security guard, said he had a tape he wanted to show, and that is when the building was evacuated.

So, we don't know much more than that, unfortunately, at the moment. A couple of the reporters out here told me that this is being taken very seriously by station management. That's why everybody left the building right away. And now this is a wait-and-see situation.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: All right, Brian, stand by.

Art, again, confirming from Baltimore P.D., everyone inside is evacuated. The only person in the station is this individual sitting in the lobby. Appears to be wearing some kind of vest. You saw the police chopper high in the air.

Art, how do law enforcement respond to this?

ART RODERICK, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Well, I mean, you have to assume the what he says, he's actually got on him.

Law enforcement is assuming that he does have a bomb strapped to his chest. It's great that they have evacuated the TV station. I'm sure they're probably pushing the perimeter back even further now. It sounds like from Brian's reporting that they're making the perimeter a wider perimeter.

So, they will be evacuating other areas around that particular TV station, but if he's in there by himself, then I'm fairly comfortable that they have got the situation under control. They're going to try to talk to him, talk him out of the situation.

But I have heard other reports that there's a possibility that this individual is known, so more than likely they're dealing with somebody that's psychologically unstable. I mean, to do this in the first place, obviously, you have got to have some psychological issues.

BALDWIN: Just not right. RODERICK: Yes. It is not right at all.

BALDWIN: Brian Stelter, let me go back to you. What else is happening there?

STELTER: Brooke, I'm not sure if we have live pictures. But about a minute ago, this man dressed in some sort of suit began to walk outside of the station on to the street.

There are a number of police officers that were following him, moving very quickly. He apparently didn't obey commands, because shots began to be fired. We were hearing several rounds of gunfire.

I didn't initially see this individual be hit by any of the gunfire, but on the third or fourth time we saw some fire, he was hit and he then fell to the ground. Now, I have moved further back, as have the rest of the TV crews here, in case there's anymore exchange of gunfire.

But I can tell you that this man, the individual that was sitting in the lobby area, was struck by something and then fell to the ground. Now, keep in mind these authorities were told this man had a bomb on his vest. he was very clear threat.

So, as he began to exit this lobby area, and walk out on to the street, he did not seem to stop walking. He kept walking even as the authorities, of course, fully in body armor and all that were trying to pursue him. That is when the shots began to be fired. And right now, I can't say anything more at the moment.

BALDWIN: Brian, just so I'm clear, do we know if this individual has been neutralized or we don't know yet?

STELTER: From what I can tell, when he hit the ground, he was very clearly neutralized.

I didn't hear anymore gunfire after that. What we don't know is, of course, what was fired, if and where he was hit or any of that, because we're not able to see him or the authorities from the vantage point we have now.

But I can tell you, even now, the reporters here and the news crews are crouching behind vehicles just in a precautionary standby mode here.

BALDWIN: OK. Brian, keep your distance, please. But just hang tight with me for a second.

Art, now that we have learned that this individual walked out of the TV station, not obeying command, police functioning under the assumption that the vest has a potential to explode, what's protocol here?

RODERICK: Well, I mean, at this particular point, this could have been a situation of suicide by law enforcement, this individual wanted to die. A lot of times we have seen this in the past where they just confront police, don't obey any of the lawful commands, and then you have this type of scenario that occurs.

Obviously, on the scene, I think you will have the bomb squad from Baltimore P.D., you're going to have ATF there. Probably the FBI is there. Basically, any federal law enforcement and state and local law enforcement that are in the area I'm sure responded to assist the P.D. with this particular situation.

So now, you know, you have to look at how they are going to approach this individual with a possibility that he was wearing an explosive vest and you're going to have ATF and the bomb squad to try to neutralize that particular portion of the explosive devices.

BALDWIN: Next step, then, bring in the sort of tactical teams, approach the individual, test what? They have to be looking to see if, in fact, this was an explosive vest. Yes?

RODERICK: Right. Obviously, the detonation device wasn't hooked to his hand or anything like that or it would have exploded when he was neutralized at that particular point.

[15:05:00]

So, now he could be approached by a bomb robot to look to see if the device is actually a real explosive device. But with ATF and the EOD people there, I'm sure they will have this situation wrapped up fairly quickly, especially since he has been neutralized himself at this particular point.

BALDWIN: OK. Let me pivot back to Brian Stelter, who is outside of this TV station. He is the one breaking all of this news to us.

Brian, what is happening now?

STELTER: Just so you know, Brooke, I can see the man now laying in the street, does not appear to be moving, but I should -- I think we should be very clear. We don't know what kind of shots were heard, whether these were gunshots, whether these were bean bags or something else, some sort of flash bang or something.

But at the moment, he is laying in the street. I can see a sort of white outfit that he was wearing. Some people have even speculated some sort of (INAUDIBLE) outfit. It's a very strange-looking outfit that he was wearing. And then there was this claim that he was wearing this bomb on his vest.

That's all I can see at the moment. He is laying in the street here outside the station.

BALDWIN: We are obviously being very, very careful about what we show here on live TV. These are pictures from moments ago, law enforcement on the scene. Brian Stelter, we will come back to you momentarily as you get more information. So, stand by, Brian Stelter and Art Roderick.

For now, let's move on and talk politics. Signs the Republican's establishment cold shoulder toward Donald Trump

might be beginning to thaw. Former Republican House Speaker John Boehner reportedly told a crowd at Stanford University that he would vote for Trump if were the eventual Republican nominee.

But as Boehner's apparently warming up to Trump, he's hurling fire at another man who wants the job, Senator Ted Cruz. Boehner said he would not support Cruz as the nominee and he went on from there. He was asked what he thought about the senator from Texas and it's "The Stanford Daily" has reported that Boehner "made a face when he was asked that."

And then this is the quote seen everywhere: "Lucifer in the flesh. I have Democrat friends and Republican friends. I get along with almost everyone, but I have never worked with a more miserable son of a 'bleep' in my life."

That was John Boehner. Here's Donald Trump after hearing those words.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: If Cruz sneezes, if he just sneezes, his people leave him. Believe me. There's no loyalty. Nobody -- who can listen to him? In the Senate, he's known as a liar. Marco Rubio, who's a good guy, called him a liar during the debate. Remember that?

He said you're a liar. I said that's great. When another senator can call a senator a liar, I said now I can do it also. So, it is great. So we came up with lyin' Ted, L-Y-I-N, boom, hyphen.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Boom, apostrophe, but we get where he's going.

Dana Bash is with me now, CNN's chief political correspondent.

First of all, where has John Boehner been? And now, boy, oh, boy, he has made a splash with his public appearance.

DANA BASH, CNN SENIOR CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: He has, although it seems reading some of the transcripts he didn't necessarily expect it to be public.

Look, he is gone. He's in retirement. He's making speeches. He's writing a book, and he is now saying the things more a little bit freely that those of us who covered him, especially during his very tumultuous years, he believes, and he is not wrong, in large part many times because of Ted Cruz's tactics -- you know, it was not a secret how he felt about Cruz.

Now he's just using more colorful language. Actually, Lucifer is maybe a little bit tame compared to some of the other colorful language that we have heard that he's said about Ted Cruz in private. Now, he is the former House speaker. Before I go on about their relationship, let me play for you what the current House speaker said about Ted Cruz.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. PAUL RYAN (R-WI), SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: I have a much better relationship than that with Senator Cruz. Look, my job is to help unify our party, is to take all pieces of the conservative movement in the Republican Party and help stitch them together, especially after a primary.

I have a very good relationship with both of these men. And I'm going to keep it this way.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BASH: So saying the -- sort of the political diplomat there, if you will, there. But this is another piece of evidence, Brooke, to me that the world is just completely upside-down. And the reason is because Ted Cruz, again, was supposed to be the outsider who made establishment Republicans like John Boehner crazy, not Donald Trump.

And Trump is the one who had at least until this point been the one when's been vexing elected Republicans and how he can possibly be doing so well, because he had been and has been and is tapping into the anti-Washington fervor.

And to hear John Boehner, for example, say that -- first of all, they're golfing buddies. I'm sure they knew each other because Donald Trump does talk quite about the fact that it was his job to be friends with everybody, Democrats and Republicans. And since he and John Boehner do have something very real in common, social activity, a sporting activity, and that is golf, I'm sure they genuinely do know each other well.

[15:10:13]

He had some tough things to say about Donald Trump, but he said eventually he would and could support Trump. He didn't say the same thing about Ted Cruz, which gets me circling back to my initial point, which is I cannot tell you how many times I watched John Boehner walk up and down the hallways in the Capitol frustrated, completely perplexed and vexed by the fact that he couldn't get his own Republican Caucus to follow him, and ended up leading them towards a partial government shutdown.

BALDWIN: I remember watching you pace watching Boehner pace.

(CROSSTALK)

BASH: Exactly, because Ted Cruz came over to the House and really stirred things up.

BALDWIN: Yes. Yes, he did.

BASH: And that's the genesis of those comments.

BALDWIN: OK. Dana Bash, thanks for the setup. I appreciate it. We are going to bring in my panel to talk through all of this coming up next.

Also ahead, moments ago, Jeb Bush giving his very first interview since dropping out of the race. Hear what he now has to say about Donald Trump and Ted Cruz and whether he would ever, ever run again.

Back in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:16:04]

BALDWIN: Welcome back. You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

On politics, we were just talking about the former Speaker of the House John Boehner and the slam of Ted Cruz, calling him Lucifer in the flesh, but Ted Cruz wearing that insult, turning it around, wearing it like a badge of honor. Here he was.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. TED CRUZ (R-TX), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: He allowed his inner Trump to come out. You know, I will say this.

If you're wondering who actually has stood up to Washington, I think John Boehner has made it crystal clear. John Boehner in his remarks described Donald Trump as his texting and golfing buddy. Donald Trump has been funding John Boehner and he's also been funding Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid.

If you like what John Boehner, Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid have done, Donald Trump is your guy. And actually Boehner's comments everything that is wrong and corrupt with Washington.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Let me bring in CNN's chief political analyst, Gloria Borger, CNN political commentator Amanda Carpenter, used to be the communications director for Senator Ted Cruz, and Marjorie Dannenfelser, president of the Susan B. Anthony List, a pro-life law advocacy group, so an all-ladies panel. I love it.

Marjorie, to you first. With the new reporting also today that more and more Republicans on the Hill are I think the word is warming to Donald Trump, do you see this as an emerging -- we had the never Trump movement. Is it also a never Cruz movement as well?

MARJORIE DANNENFELSER, PRESIDENT, SUSAN B. ANTHONY LIST: I don't think so. I think that, you know, politics is a game where you don't stop fighting until the checkered flag waves, and everyone will fight up until the very end.

I think when the tea leaves are being looked at and people are concerned that the wind might be shifting in the opposite direction than they wish, then of course you open paths that you hadn't opened before. But it is not over. And I think with the addition of Carly Fiorina to Ted Cruz's ticket, that's a very tactical, smart move we have been calling for, for a while. And they have got a shot in Indiana. That's for sure.

BALDWIN: Let me stay with you, because I will lose you in a second.

We heard from John Boehner. He talked about a lot of things. He also apparently not to the greatest reception said something when he was asked about Hillary Clinton. He said: "Oh, I'm a woman, vote for me," to a negative crowd reaction. This is from "The Stanford Daily."

And then added he'd known her for 25 years, finds her to very accomplished and smart. But here you have two nights ago Donald Trump mentions the woman card, which did not sit well with a lot of ladies, including Hillary Clinton, and now this comment from John Boehner. When's going on here?

DANNENFELSER: Well, I think the reality is that now we see a potential situation where we have got two women on the opposite sides of the race.

And when you take away the war on women theme that we assume will happen with Hillary Clinton with the existence of Carly Fiorina, who will go right at those premises, and speak to a lot of women who don't into that, then you have really evened the playing field.

And you can call it a woman's card. You can just say that now there would be more full representation with the addition of Carly Fiorina. That's for sure.

BALDWIN: OK.

Turning to you all and, Gloria, you know, weigh in on what she just said, but listen. I know John Boehner speaking at Stanford. There were no cameras in the room. But come on. We all have one of these and people are listening. I'm not surprised that this got out.

That said, here we are four days before Indiana, to call Ted Cruz Lucifer, he knows what he is doing, doesn't he?

GLORIA BORGER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: He knows exactly what he's doing.

Look, John Boehner doesn't like Ted Cruz. As Dana was pointing out earlier, John Boehner feels completely betrayed by Ted Cruz. Ted Cruz, he believes, was trying to kidnap all his House Republicans to go along with a government shutdown, which he did successfully.

AMANDA CARPENTER, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: They went willingly, I will say.

BORGER: Right, but he was going behind his back. And he was the speaker of the House.

And this is why people don't like Ted Cruz on the Hill, because they believe he's an opportunist, and they believe he led people to a ledge that he knew they were going to have to jump over and there was no net.

[15:20:04]

And Boehner resents it to this day, obviously. And I have never seen members of Congress -- and I know you worked for Ted Cruz and I know you like Ted Cruz -- but I have never seen members of Congress this publicly...

BALDWIN: Feel so strongly about some -- a sitting senator.

BORGER: And politics is personal. So, we talk about the fact that politicians haven't rallied around Donald Trump to a great degree. Well, they're not exactly rallying around Ted Cruz either.

BALDWIN: But he's taking that and he's saying, great. Great.

CARPENTER: And yes. In this political cycle, this qualifies as a gift from John Boehner, because it reminds everyone in Indiana and beyond that Ted Cruz really was challenging the Washington establishment from the inside.

He showed leadership. He was working with members of the House to make that coalition that did lead to a government shutdown and then guys like John Boehner, Mitch McConnell, John Boehner cut out the knees from underneath the movement and they said, hey, we're not going along with this and tanked it.

But this really gets to the broader problem in the Republican Party that they are people inside Washington in the House and outside who want real change. They want to see Republicans fighting for their values. And so that's what they were doing and GOP leadership didn't listen, didn't listen, and now they get to deal with Donald Trump.

BALDWIN: I want to pivot to Democrats. And this is also back to John Boehner. And I wanted to hear how you read this, because we had a discussion. And I'm not quite sure.

John Boehner also speculated about surprises that could come closer to Philadelphia to the Democratic National Convention if Hillary's e- mails become a bigger thing. He said: "Don't be shocked if two weeks before the convention, here comes Joe Biden parachuting in and Barack Obama fanning the flames to make it all happen."

BORGER: Huh?

BALDWIN: What is he saying?

BORGER: Huh?

(CROSSTALK)

BORGER: I'm not sure I really know.

BALDWIN: OK.

BORGER: First of all, Barack Obama is a big Hillary Clinton fan. Although he tried to stay neutral when Joe Biden was thinking about running and he's tried to stay neutral with Bernie Sanders and Hillary Clinton, it's very clear that he likes Hillary Clinton.

Joe Biden is not in this race right now. And if there were ever going to something that would occur, why wouldn't the party turn to Bernie Sanders? Bernie Sanders is the one who has got millions of votes. Joe Biden hasn't participated.

Obama would like Biden better than Bernie Sanders if he had a choice, because he wants to save health care. And Bernie Sanders wants single-payer, doesn't like Obamacare. But I think this is kind of sort of something that John Boehner is playing out in his mind that is not within the realm of our reality at this point.

BALDWIN: OK. OK. OK.

Gloria Borger, Amanda Carpenter, thank you both so much, and Marjorie as well. Appreciate it.

Now, first on CNN, in his first very interview since dropping out of the race, Jeb Bush weighs in on Ted Cruz's choice in Carly Fiorina as a running mate, plus why he says Trump strategy of being "unpredictable" makes zero sense.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:27:25]

BALDWIN: Let's talk now about a man who wanted to be president. He dropped out before the Florida primary. He is Jeb Bush.

He is now talking for the very first time since he dropped out of the race. And in an interview with our special correspondent Jamie Gangel, he shared what he makes of Carly Fiorina as Ted Cruz's running mate choice.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JEB BUSH (R), FORMER FLORIDA GOVERNOR: Picking a candidate that's talented, tough, you know, she takes on Trump really well, I think, and she takes on Hillary Clinton very well as well, someone who has got a proven record and who's been vetted as a candidate, I thought was a smart move by Ted Cruz.

JAMIE GANGEL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: You didn't think that Donald Trump was ready to be president. But if he is the nominee, apart from whatever else you think might happen, whether he would beat Hillary or not, will you support him?

BUSH: I don't think he's a serious person.

GANGEL: You haven't changed your mind?

BUSH: No. I have seen nothing -- the speech, you know, recent speech about foreign policy was -- you can't -- I don't know which Donald Trump to believe, the one that read from a teleprompter a speech that was inside the lines, or the one that wants to build a wall and make Mexico pay for it. The idea that a president should be unpredictable is not really the

way history has been written. The successful presidents have been clear about their vision, have laid out the agenda on foreign policy, and our friends know that we have their back and our enemies fear us and there's a constancy by American leadership.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Let's react to a bit of with Tim Naftali, used to be the director of the Nixon Presidential Library. He's now a professor at NYU. He's the author of "George H.W. Bush: The American President" series.

So, as always, a pleasure to have you on.

I know you want to talk Trump and foreign policy. Got on that in just a second here, and feel free -- when he's talking about unpredictability and presidents really shouldn't go hand in hand, what did you make of his comments?

TIM NAFTALI, FORMER DIRECTOR, NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY: About unpredictability?

Well, unpredictability is another way of saying, I haven't figured it out, so don't press me on it, and wait until I become president. And that's dangerous.

You really need to know, particularly with somebody with no background in foreign policy and no background as an elected official, you have to have a sense of, what is their gut reaction to an issue?

BALDWIN: Because a lot of presidents don't have...

NAFTALI: They don't have it.

Listen, you don't get the chair -- usually, you don't get the chair chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee who as president. OK? So, the thing about it is, you got to know what their gut is.

And what Jeb Bush was saying was, our knowledge of his gut, his gut is the wall. His gut is bullying China. That's his gut. The new language, the new rhetoric, that may not be his gut.

So, what Bush, and I think very effectively, is saying, who is the Donald -- which -- which is President Trump, the teleprompter Trump or the man on the stage saying --