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Presidential Candidates Stump for New York Primary Votes; Rescue Efforts Intensify in Ecuador; Campaigns of Ultimate Disappointment?; Obama's Immigration Plan Goes to Supreme Court; North Korean Official Weighs in on Donald Trump; Drone Suspected of Hitting Plane Near Heathrow Airport. Aired 5-6p ET

Aired April 17, 2016 - 17:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[17:00:01] PAMELA BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Either is necessarily a shoe-in. Both Clinton and Trump claim New York is their home and Trump is working crowds in New York City and parts of the north today. He started this Sunday with a speech on Staten Island and a short time ago appeared at a rally.

That's where CNN's Chris Frates is, and Chris, a new "Wall Street Journal"-NBC-Marist poll has Donald Trump up 29 points ahead of John Kasich in New York, 38 points ahead of Senator Ted Cruz, yet he's full steam ahead, right?

CHRIS FRATES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: He is full steam ahead. I wouldn't say that he's, you know, counting his delegates before they're elected but he is feeling very good here in his home state. And that's good news for Donald Trump because he's coming off a pretty hard weekend. Ted Cruz beating him again this time in Wyoming, taking all 14 delegates in the state convention there. That's similar to what happened in Colorado a week or so ago and that's got Donald Trump saying that the system is rigged. That nobody voted in a primary or a caucus and that the state convention is the party bosses' domain and he wants to make that stop.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We have a system that's rigged. We have a system that's crooked. We have a system that's got a lot of problems. And we have a system that doesn't allow the people to vote in many cases, and if they do vote, their vote isn't really representative of what it should be. We have this delegate system, which is a sham. So in Colorado, the people are going crazy out there because they never got a chance to vote.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FRATES: Now the Republican National Committee firing back here saying that all the candidates knew about the rules in advance and that they knew that they could do -- every state could do a primary, a caucus or a state convention. In fact the RNC pointing out that this is the same process that Abraham Lincoln went through way back in 1860 to get the nomination so there should be no surprises here.

And, you know, Ted Cruz is taking a little bit of a victory lap after the big Wyoming win for him yesterday. He was rising Donald Trump a little bit on Twitter earlier this afternoon, Pam. If we can put that tweet up, I'll read it to you. He said, you know, "Donald over 1.3 million people just voted in Utah, North Dakota, Wisconsin, Colorado and Wyoming. You lost all five in a row by huge margins, #NoWhining."

So Cruz again taking a little bit of a victory lap there and he should enjoy it. If the polls are any indication here in New York, Pam, Donald Trump up by double-digits as we are talking about. 54 percent support in a new "Wall Street Journal" poll. Ted Cruz just 16 percent support. And if Donald Trump can win more than 50 percent of the vote here in New York, and in each of the congressional districts, he could take home all 95 of those delegates. That would go a long way to getting into that magic number of 1237. He needs to clinch the nomination.

Of course Ted Cruz and John Kasich trying to prevent that, trying to take this race all the way to Cleveland, Pam.

VAUSE: And has Donald Trump responded yet to this tweet from Ted Cruz that you just pointed out telling him to stop whining?

FRATES: You know, we haven't heard back from Donald Trump yet. He didn't address it in his big rally today but, you know, he did get the crowd pretty fired up, you know, chanting, lying Ted, and saying that, you know, the New York values comment that Ted Cruz made, that he doesn't -- you know, he doesn't have New York values. Really playing well with this New York crowd, his hometown crowd for Donald Trump, Pam.

BROWN: All right. Chris Frates, thank you so much for bringing us the latest there from New York. And let's get now to Scottie Nell Hughes, she's a national political commentator from USA Radio Networks, and she's all in for Donald Trump. Also joining us, Buck Sexton, he is a CNN political commentator who supports Senator Ted Cruz.

Thank you both for coming on. Scottie, first to you. We just heard Chris' report. The New York primary just two days away. Why is Donald Trump pounding the pavement so hard this weekend in New York when he has such a big lead in the polls?

SCOTTIE NELL HUGHES, NATIONAL POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, USA RADIO NETWORKS: Well, because I think it's about the momentum. I mean, you sit here and you watch Ted Cruz sitting here bragging about winning Colorado and Wyoming. Those states together, they only equal what, 61 delegates? Donald Trump has a chance of literally going over that with 95 and it is not about just New York. We've got the Yankee primaries that are following just a week later. That's 118 delegates. And going over to Indiana, 51, and ultimately in June the latest poll has Donald Trump up 10 points in California. 172 delegates.

So right now it's all about momentum, it's all about stealing back supposedly this idea that Donald Trump is losing that truly the Cruz campaigns continue to whine about.

BROWN: But if every delegate counts, Scottie, why isn't he fighting for delegates in other states like in Wyoming yesterday, Colorado before that?

HUGHES: But I think you have to look at what delegates he is fighting for. When you're talking about delegates that are elected by the people, when people go to the polls and 101 vote on them, Donald Trump is winning overwhelmingly for. These delegates that continued to be given to Ted Cruz and even John Kasich right now are those that are being appointed by the establishment within each of the state Republican parties. Those are delegates that Mr. Trump probably never had a chance with. It is called a good strategy. Something the Republican Party has not had in the past. Hence why we've lost the last two election cycles.

[17:05:01] Mr. Trump is going, I am going to take this to the people and in the states where actually have a chance for the people to make their vote, guess what? Donald Trump continues to win over and over.

BROWN: Well, there have been other states, too, where Ted Cruz has won, including Wisconsin more recently.

But, Buck, I want to bring you in because Ted Cruz in New York never recovered from that New York values comment, it seems. And it seems like he is paying for it in the polls when you look at them. As we know, poll numbers aren't always accurate. But is that a reason he is not even appearing in person anywhere in New York today and he was, you know, in Wyoming yesterday?

BUCK SEXTON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, Ted Cruz knows that he is not going to win New York, I think, that's quite clear based on all the polls we see. New York is Donald Trump's home state. It's the place where he has the greatest name recognition. And this is a guy who has a lot of name recognition outside of New York, too. But he's a hometown product, he's absolutely crushing it right now in the polls. I can't pretend -- I can't sort of pull a Baghdad bomb and act like this isn't happening. There is in fact going to be a pretty substantial Trump victory.

But to the point about momentum, you also I think have to add numbers. And when you look at the numbers, Donald Trump needs to have 60 percent of the remaining delegates to clinch the nomination before the convention. If he can't get 60 percent in the New York state, the state in which he is most well positioned, the state in which he has all of the factors you could possibly imagine really going in his favor, then I think it's a very hard sell that he would win 60 percent of remaining states that are still up for grabs.

States, by the way, that include places like Nebraska, West Virginia, where Ted Cruz is going to be doing very well and Ted Cruz will almost likely win those states. And then it becomes an all-out battle in California. So really for the Cruz campaign, it is about containing the Trump victory. Sort of making sure the damage isn't so much that it's something they can't recover from and pushing into May.

There's going to be some other tough primaries as well in the Eastern Seaboard for the Cruz campaign. If they can make it into May, win those states and then push into California where it becomes an all-out battle, I think they prevent Trump from getting to 1237. And that's the best case scenario as I can see it right now but Trump is obviously going to have a really good day on Tuesday.

BROWN: All right. But it's a tough fight ahead as you point out for both of the candidates. And John Kasich as well.

Ted Cruz, though, Scottie, he had this small victory last night out west in Wyoming. Trump says that's another rigged and crooked delegate system. It's an example of that. It may be convoluted, it may be confusing but rigged? Something that's been going on for years and years and years?

HUGHES: Absolutely. If you look at -- these are systems -- and it has nothing to do with the national Republican Party. This has to do with these state parties that has shown that they really just want to keep themselves in power and keep those within their inner circles.

Listen, I got a fundraising e-mail this morning from John Kasich celebrating that down in Georgia despite -- and he celebrates this. Despite not getting enough of the popular vote to get any delegates he emerged yesterday from the convention with enough appointed delegates for him. And they're showing in Indiana he is bragging that he has more delegates promised to him than Cruz and Trump.

That's how you can tell this system is rigged. It is not meant for an outsider to have a chance. That is the one best thing that's come out. And it's regardless of both parties that it's showing that this election system is meant to absolutely make sure the people who are in power stay in power and an outsider does not have a chance of ever getting in.

BROWN: OK. So to your point, Scottie, Buck, as we just heard, you know, in Georgia, Trump won but the majority of delegates chosen to go to the RNC convention are supporters of Ted Cruz. How does that square? Does that just bolster Trump's argument?

SEXTON: Well, these are the rules of the game as they've been set by the --

(CROSSTALK)

BROWN: OK. But they're rules but --

SEXTON: There are rules and I think that when you look at, for example, what happened in Florida where Trump gets all of the delegates, a winner-take-all state, and he took Marco Rubio's lunch, I don't know if he'll ever really recover from that, at least in the near term. But the fact of the matter is that there are some states where there are proportional delegates, some states where there are -- I mean, the rules change based on the state.

This is the system as it exists right now. And I think it's pretty damaging that the narrative coming out of the Trump campaign is not just that they don't really like the system. It's one thing to complain about it. But to constantly talk about stealing and how this contest has been stolen from Trump or delegates has been stolen from Trump. That also sort of brings out the sense that there is malfeasance, that

there's some sort of backroom deals going on that are meant to specifically damage the Trump campaign and only the Trump campaign, and going into the convention when we're hoping that no matter who the nominee is -- as a Republican, I'm hoping no matter who the nominee is, there'll be unity behind that candidate, he is poisoning the well before we even get there. I think it's deeply damaging and quite honestly irresponsible narrative for the Trump campaign to make right now.

BROWN: And, Scottie, to Buck's point, some political commentators I've spoken to say Trump is playing with fire by fuelling this voter mistrust in the system. What is your response to that and what Buck just said?

HUGHES: I think if anything it's damaging and showing in the polls, that's why Cruz is actually starting to lose and his unfavorable ratings are going up because he's being identified as an establishment politician. The last thing a conservative wants to be known as. He is being seen as someone who plays the game rather than actually talks to people and who is a representative of the people.

I think that that is actually where the most extreme damage that Ted Cruz is going to be. They're going to very quickly reverse this narrative that they're being appointed by the establishment Republican Party beltway diseurs and rather a representation of the people which is showing to be not the truth in a lot of these cases.

[17:10:07] And the reason why, it's not necessarily the people that are being voted on by the people, these delegates that are being elected by the people, that's not who Mr. Trump is saying is in trouble, the ones that he's upset about are those that are being appointed. And it is happening. Those backroom doors are -- those deals are happening, Buck, and you know they are. We're watching people who are running as Trump delegates being removed by the chairman of the party like I saw in Tennessee and people who are Jeb Bush, Marco Rubio, Ted Cruz supporters being put in their place to go to the convention in Cleveland.

That's why we believe the system is rigged and these backdoor deals are happening. The things that Americans hate and mistrust about our government.

(CROSSTALK)

BROWN: All right, Scottie Nell Hughes, Buck Sexton, we really have to go. But I think you both made your voices heard. So thank you for sharing your perspectives. We do appreciate it.

And by the way, as we mentioned, this Tuesday, it's the battle for New York and the stakes couldn't be higher. It could all come down to this. The New York primaries. All day coverage Tuesday right here on CNN.

And by the way, we're waiting on a live event this hour. Hillary Clinton back on the East Coast and back on the political crosshairs. Facing questions about her fundraising. Could she face even sharper attacks from the Republican candidate in the general election?

And a key part of President Barack Obama's legacy will be tested at the Supreme Court this week. Its fate hangs in the balance along with that of millions of undocumented immigrants who could face deportation.

And an earthquake strikes Ecuador. Devastating communities in that nation and leaving more than 200 people dead. We'll have an update on that after this break. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Powerful images of rescue operations are coming out of earthquake ravaged Ecuador. Just hours ago, a young girl was pulled alive from a hotel that collapsed during yesterday's 7.8 magnitude quake.

[17:15:09] The devastation has been incredible and the death toll is now surging. Our senior Latin America Affairs editor Rafael Romo joins me now.

Rafael, what are you hearing about rescue efforts there and the scope of the damage?

RAFAEL ROMO, CNN SR. LATIN AMERICAN AFFAIRS EDITOR: Yes, Pam. We are just looking at those pictured that you showed and they give you a pretty good idea of what happened in Ecuador less than 24 hours ago. It reportedly took them hours just to locate this girl underneath the fallen concrete. 10,000 soldiers and 4600 police have been sent to the hardest-hit areas in an effort to rescue some of the earthquake victims who might still be trapped under rubble.

The 7.2 magnitude earthquake hit last night, Pamela, just before 7:00. So many shopping centers were packed with people and authorities have declared a state of emergency in six provinces including Manabi which was the hardest hit. Most of the fatalities have been in this province, and so far, Pamela, there are no reports of any Americans killed.

BROWN: So what do we know? I know that the death toll of course is fluid. But what are the latest numbers of dead or injured?

ROMO: Yes. The Ecuadorian government updated the death toll about three hours ago. It went up from 77 to 238 currently. And rescue crews are going through the rubble at this hour. So unfortunately it may increase again.

There are more than 1500 people injured and we're taking a close look at the city of that Guayaquil which is about the size of Chicago in terms of population. This is the largest and most populous city in the country. And the same population as I was saying in Chicago, bridges collapsed there and shopping malls were badly damaged.

Guayaquil is also the main port, so if as you can imagine, a great cause for concern once the actual extent of the damage is known, Pamela. BROWN: Absolutely. Those rescue workers certainly have their work

cut out for them.

Rafael Romo, thank you very much for that.

And the devastation in Ecuador follows two killer earthquakes in Japan. One on Thursday and a second, even more powerful, 7 magnitude quake, in the same region early yesterday. The two tremors killed at least 41 people and injured thousands. Rescue crews on foot and in the air are canvassing the hardest hit areas in search of more survivors.

Also overnight a 5.8 magnitude quake struck the island nation of Tonga but there are no reports of damage or injuries incredibly. The island is also located in a so-called pacific ring of fire.

And for more information about how can you help the rescue and relief efforts in Ecuador and Japan, just go to CNN.com/impact.

Well, our next guest describes the presidential candidates as running campaigns of ultimate disappointment. A lot of voters would agree with him, perhaps. We're going to talk about how this election has left a lot of people down and left them backing their second choice for the White House. After this break. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:21:24] BROWN: Well, I think it's safe to say that this election has been pretty surprising for many of us. And some voters might describe it as disappointing.

"New York Times" columnist Charles Blow wrote, "This whole political season seems to me rife with profound disappointment. Too many people are making too many big promises that they know full well they can't deliver but the individual voters believe that they can and the media establishment is doing far too little to disabuse voters of those notions."

Charles Blow joins me now to discuss more of this op-ed.

So you basically say, Charles, that there is a sense of -- there will absence of profound betrayal among voters once all of this is said and done. Why is that?

CHARLES BLOW, OP-ED COLUMNIST, THE NEW YORK TIMES: Well, because they are all overpromising, right? On the right, they're overpromising both in terms of how they want to pursue ISIS and deal with the war on terror. They're basically saying that they would do some of the same things the president is already doing which is aggressive air campaign, trying to enlist kind of local nations in the region. It's just not working very well. Unless you want to incur like massive civilian casualties, you can't do very much more than what they are doing now.

This idea that we're going to build a wall and Mexico is going to pay for it, not by any kind of conventional way they could pay for it. This idea that we would try to get rid of -- crack down on remittances as a way to deal with payment. That's not exactly Mexico paying for it. That's actually the people who are here not being able to send money back and therefore that becomes the payment.

A lot of what they're saying -- it's just not going to happen. That's also true on the Democratic side. Hillary Clinton is kind of promising far left than Bernie Sanders. But both of them are likely to run into a Congress that looks a lot like this one and there is no way that any Congress that looks like this one is going to do half or even a quarter of what those two Democratic candidates are saying that they want to pursue.

BROWN: So you said that the media establishment isn't doing enough essentially to call them out on that. But, you know, in my view after political debates and town halls and so forth, there is fact-checking. Even the candidates call each other out saying, you know, don't make promises you can't keep. So is that just not sticking --

BLOW: I think fact-checking becomes more like, you know, do my numbers add up? Or, you know, is the problem as I have described it, is it true? You know, those sorts of things they fact check. The idea, however, that what you are saying, if the Congress looks like it looks today, none of this will pass. And there are certain --

BROWN: That is what Bernie Sanders and other --

(CROSSTALK)

BLOW: Well, I don't think people say it nearly enough. People still have the belief that some of this stuff that he is saying will happen or even that Hillary is saying will happen.

BROWN: And you think that belief could be knocked down? The people will --

BLOW: Well, it is -- it is ripe for betrayal. People will feel betrayed even if you get it often say well, I was going to do all these wonderful things. But Congress stopped me from doing it. That in turn increases cynicism among the population which I think is actually a harmful thing because people can't keep being disappointed. They can't keep believing and then keep having that turn out not to be true.

BROWN: And do you think it's worse this election cycle than what we've heard in past elections? Because it seems like you always hear these promises and then they get into office and --

BLOW: Well, not quite. You know, a lot of progressives have knocked Barack Obama for instance, for not doing enough. In fact, you know, when you look at PolitiFact and they looked at the number of promises he kept versus the number he broke, he kept far more than he broke. And part of that was because they were able to flip both Houses. So he had both Houses coming in, and that you knew that going into the election that it was very likely they would be able to get at least one, if not both Houses of Congress. [17:25:09] So -- and the promises that he was making just seemed a

little bit, you know, more dramatic because they were coming -- being in contrast to Bush and to McCain. He was able to do that. What Democrats are promising these days are just so far beyond what Barack Obama would ever have promised and there's no way to get it passed because they don't have the same Congress that he had.

BROWN: So part of the appeal, though, particularly for Bernie Sanders, Donald Trump, is this notion of a political revolution that they're going to come in and shake things up. But you say in your op- ed that the United States is not built to easily facilitate a political revolution.

BLOW: The founders --

BROWN: Why is that?

BLOW: The founders did not want revolution. Even though they were kind of revolutionary in their own right. But this country -- we have to remember, this country was founded to privilege white men with money. And they did not want anyone to upset that. And so they restricted kind of voter access. There was a tremendous amount of restriction at the founding of the country and we have over the centuries kind of expanded access and equality in this country but still that original privilege remains and it is not built to be overturned very easily.

And so this idea that you can all of a sudden in one cycle have a revolutionary change is really -- the system is not built that way. You have -- you built this system over a decades and centuries. It will probably take decades and centuries to dismantle this system that we have. They did not want what people think they are going to get.

BROWN: That they're going to get. Just lastly, in your view, is this an election where people have to basically pick the least bad option?

BLOW: I do believe that there are some people who are very passionate about the options they have and really happy that they have those options. There are, however, you know, particularly on the Republican side, establishment types who say none of these people are the people that we want. The only establishment we had in the race only won one state, his own state, and that is Kasich. And so I think they have more disappointment than the Democrats have.

BROWN: All right. Charles Blow, interesting discussion. Thank you very much for that.

And meantime, one of President Obama's top priorities faces a Supreme Court test tomorrow. How an open seat on the Supreme Court bench might be the difference between victory or defeat for the president's immigration plan.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:31:15] BROWN: In what may be the last major Supreme Court test of the Obama era, the president's immigration plan goes before the court Monday. Well, Texas is leading the charge of 26 states challenging the White House. The case focuses on two things. Obama's plan to defer deportation for more than four million undocumented immigrants living in the U.S. and whether those states have the legal right to bring the case in the first place.

Well, now the future of the case is in the hands of the Supreme Court which only has eight members right now.

I want to bring in our Supreme Court reporter, Ariane De Vogue. My colleague, Ariane. So what are the two sides expected to argue tomorrow? And the oral arguments are going to be a little different than normal, right?

ARIANE DE VOGUE, CNN SUPREME COURT CORRESPONDENT: Well, you remember, Pam, it was over a year ago that President Obama unveiled what he thought was going to be the centerpiece of his second term, immigration reform. He put forward these executive actions Set to give millions of undocumented immigrants to shield them from deportation and maybe work authorization associated benefits. But all that came to a screeching halt when Texas and the other states sued. And this federal district court in Texas blocked the programs from going forward nationwide.

The administration says, look, we have a lot of discretion here and we are allowed to prioritize when it comes to deporting individuals and the state says, look, you might be able to prioritize, but what you can't do is make law. And tomorrow at court, the justices have allowed a lawyer for the House of Representatives to get 15 minutes. And that lawyer is going to come forward and say look, the Obama administration, they went to Congress, they tried to get immigration reform and they failed. And now what they're trying to do is take on the role of Congress and change the law and they say that's the thing that they cannot do.

BROWN: So how could the state standing to bring this lawsuit in the first place play a role with the outcome and then also the 4-4 split, if there is one?

DE VOGUE: Well, the first thing is, that the standing issue is a very important threshold -- issue that the court is going to start with. And the administration said look, these Texas states, they do not have the legal right to be in court. They have to prove an injury and they can't do that. And the states counter and say look, these new recipients for these programs will cost us millions of dollars and that's enough to get us into court. So that's the standing issue.

And if the Supreme Court agrees with the administration then the programs will be allowed to go into effect. But as you noted, the court now has only got eight numbers because Justice Scalia, obviously, no longer on the court. If the court does divide for 4-4 and it is equal here, that means that the lower court opinion is upheld. So in this case, that means that the programs are going to remain blocked.

BROWN: So several different scenarios there. Ariane De Vogue, thank you so much. Appreciate it. Meantime protesters hurdled $1 bills at Hillary Clinton's motorcade

and the money protest happened while Clinton was headed to a fundraiser at George Clooney's home. It's Bernie Sanders' attack on Clinton's fundraising and an issue that Donald Trump might try to exploit.

We'll look at how Trump might use Clinton's fundraising as a weapon, up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:38:15] BROWN: Well, money is in the air. Just two days before the crucial New York primary, Bernie Sanders' supporters showered Hillary Clinton's motorcade with a thousand $1 bills, as we see in this video. As she headed to actor George Clooney's California home last night. For a star-studded Democratic fundraiser, Sanders' fans protested what they call the, quote, "absurdity of campaign finance laws and big money in politics."

The funny thing is George Clooney agrees with the protesters it seems. Here's what he told NBC's "Meet the Press."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE CLOONEY, ACTOR: They're right to protest. They're absolutely right. It is an obscene amount of money. The Sanders campaign when they talk about it is absolutely right. It's ridiculous that we should have this kind of money in politics. I agree.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Joining me now to discuss, Hillary Clinton supporter, Maria Cardona and Bernie Sanders supporter, Nomi Konst.

Thank you both for coming on. I have no doubt this is going to be a lively discussion.

So, Maria, on the heels of what we just heard from George Clooney, it's one thing if you can justify raising money like this because that's just the way you play the game but what about the optics of this? You know, going to a celebrity fundraiser where people have to pay five to six figures to get a picture with Hillary Clinton and to host a reception with her.

Can you blame Bernie Sanders for seizing this opportunity to attack her on big money and politics?

MARIA CARDONA, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, no, because he's losing. So he's taking every opportunity he can get now to attack her on anything. But the reality is that Hillary Clinton was there raising money, not just for herself, but for the Democratic National Committee for many Democrats that are running on the ticket to take back the House, to help take back the Senate, to take back state legislatures which is where the key progressive fights need to be fought and won.

And look, it's great that Bernie Sanders is raising a ton of money and he's doing it for himself.

[17:40:06] But maybe he should think about perhaps helping a few candidates here and there, who might need help getting elected. If he really wants to help the party that he hopes to lead some day, maybe he should send those $27 donations to a couple of the Democrats who might need help. Because I'll tell you one thing, it's going to be a very lonely and failed and inconsequential political revolution if he gets to the White House and there are no Democrats around him to help him pass his agenda.

BROWN: OK. So just to that point, Nomi, you know, the Clinton campaign, as we heard Maria say, these fundraisers not only raise millions for Clinton but for the Democratic national party and other Democrats all up and down the ballot. So is Sanders opposed to raising money for other Democrats?

NOMIKI KONST, SANDERS SUPPORTER: Not at all. He is raising money for other Democrats and he has. And I think that smear campaign by the Hillary Clinton surrogate program right now is just not factual. It's also not factual that money is going to down ballot races. In fact it's reported that 80 percent of that money is going to go to the general election fund and to Hillary Clinton's primary, and to some of the super PACs. So, you know, you should be careful about what you say there because it doesn't go to the DCCC. It doesn't go to the DFCC. And it definitely doesn't go --

(CROSSTALK)

CARDONA: It does actually, Nomi. It does.

KONST: You can look at Yahoo.com. I urge everybody to look it up. You can't just say what you want. We have investigative reporters out there.

CARDONA: There are facts. And they matter so don't ignore them.

KONST: They are facts and reporters report on facts. They don't look at press releases by Hillary Clinton who is spinning everything. Numbers are numbers.

CARDONA: There are laws. This money cannot go to super PACs. So again, get your facts straight, Nomi, if you're going to call out allegations like that. That's serious stuff.

KONST: There's lobbyist money going into the DNC right now. They changed the rules --

(CROSSTALK)

CARDONA: That's not illegal. That's not illegal. That's not a super PAC. That's not money going to a super PAC. You did say that.

(CROSSTALK)

BROWN: OK, let Naomi go and then we'll go to you, Maria. KONST: Maria, you had your time. I understand you're defensive

because you're a super delegate and you're running -- you're raising money. But the reality here is --

CARDONA: No, I'm defensive because you're saying things that's not true.

KONST: Maria --

BROWN: Let Nomi talk and then I promise to go to you, next.

KONST: Maria, I used to be part of the DNC, too. I get it. I know what rules are. So the issue here is that DNC is basically broken. We are trying to keep up an arms race with Republicans and we're not winning. Even though we're raising all this money, the money is going to people who are the best fundraisers, not the best leaders. We gave up on the model that we had before 1981 when we became a corporate party where we selected the best leaders. And now we look for the best sales people who are not going in there and making deals, they're not going to overturn Citizens United.

You know, the reality here is we're not winning the Senate. We're not winning the Congress. We're not winning the legislatures because the DNC is not pouring enough money into the legislatures. The reality is we're raising all this money for the business model of the presidency. And that's the problem. We need to start looking at money differently. And not accepting it from corporations. We've got to start accepting it from people.

BROWN: OK.

KONST: And the model that Bernie Sanders is running right now is exactly that. And he is giving it to congressional candidates right now that are running on a different model.

BROWN: All right. Maria?

CARDONA: Very few congressional candidates are getting money from Bernie Sanders, number one. This -- number two, this money is going to down ballot candidates and maybe Nomi and some other Bernie supporters should go meet the grassroots activists who are actually running as Democrats and are happy to be helped by the Democratic National Committee because if it wasn't for that money and if it wasn't for their hard work in trying to raise more money to be able to pass a progressive agenda they would be nowhere. And if we all came together to help Democrats up and down the ticket we can all be working together for the united party.

KONST: We do. Here is the difference --

(CROSSTALK)

BROWN: Let me just actually follow up because, you know, so whether or not with the purpose of this is giving money not only to, you know, the Clinton campaign but to other Democrats, optics do matter, Maria, especially in a presidential election. Is there any concern from the Clinton camp that something like this could only fuel that perception that perhaps she is out of touch?

CARDONA: No. Well, again, they're not concerned. What they are concerned or with what Hillary Clinton is concerned was is continuing to disseminate the message of fighting for the people. Fighting for middle class families. Fighting for working class families. That's what she is concerned with.

The optics, you know what, again, Bernie Sanders and his campaign and their supporters will be critical of her because they're losing and there's no other way they --

KONST: You need to --

CARDONA: -- that they can focus on --

KONST: But Maria --

CARDONA: You know, trying to distract -- trying to distract --

(CROSSTALK)

CARDONA: OK. Now let me finish. Let me finish.

KONST: Maria -- no, Maria --

(CROSSTALK)

BROWN: All right. Finish your thought, Maria. Then Nomi, we'll get to you.

CARDONA: Thank you. Her focus is on the message and right now her message is winning. She's winning by 2.4 million more votes than Bernie. And 220 more pledged delegates.

BROWN: Nomi?

KONST: OK. So those pledged delegates haven't moved for about six weeks. So she is at a cap right now. But she's not going to be --

CARDONA: Not true.

KONST: She's not going to -- she's not going to get to that magical number come the convention. Because super delegates don't count until the convention as you know. The reality here is --

CARDONA: That's right.

KONST: The reality here is that Democrats have been losing membership for the past 20 years. And what Bernie Sanders has done is he has brought back disaffected voters, he's registered new voters, he's brought in independents and he's brought in working class voters that Donald Trump could strip away.

[17:45:04] So the reality here is Democrats need Bernie Sanders who is beating Trump by 20 percent more than they need Hillary Clinton who is a flawed candidate, who's accepting money at outrageous level -- CARDONA: And who is winning --

BROWN: All right. Good news, ladies, is that you're going to be back next hour. So this is a good teaser for that. Thank you very much.

KONST: She's not going to get the magical number.

CARDONA: Thank you.

BROWN: Certainly keep me on my toes for sure. Thanks so much.

And you can hear from Bernie Sanders tomorrow morning by the way on "NEW DAY" in the 8:00 a.m. Eastern hour. Thank you, ladies. We'll see you again soon.

And coming up on this Sunday, remember these comments from Donald Trump?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: North Korea has nukes. Japan has a problem with that. I mean, they have a big problem with that. Maybe they would in fact be better off if they defend themselves from North Korea. Maybe we would be better off --

CHRIS WALLACE, FOX NEWS ANCHOR: With nukes?

TRUMP: Including with nukes, yes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Now in a rare interview granted to CNN, a North Korean official is reacting. What he thinks of Donald Trump in a live report from Pyongyang up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: It's an almost unheard moment from the most reclusive country in the world. But today a North Korean official is weighing in on the U.S. election, specifically Donald Trump. In a rare interview granted to CNN a government official is calling Trump's comments on nuclear weapons, quote, "absurd and illogical."

CNN's Will Ripley sat down for that exclusive interview and joins me now from Pyongyang.

So, Will, how concerned is this country about the election? What did you learn?

[17:50:05] WILL RIPLEY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, they claim, Pam, that they don't care very much about the U.S. election. However they are closely watching it. And of course what happens in the United States directly affect life here in North Korea because of the sanctions and the other measures that U.S. is taking to try to stop this country from developing among other things its nuclear program, and yet rhetoric like what we have heard from Donald Trump North Koreans say only encourages them to try harder to get more weapons because they feel in danger because of the policies that Trump has proposed.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

RIPLEY (voice-over): Few North Korean officials understand American politics like Ri Jong-Ryul, the long-time diplomat and former ambassador, is deputy director general of the Institute of International Studies. As Pyongyang think tank monitors global events and reports back to North Korean leadership.

"We're not really interested in the U.S. election," he says. "We don't care who becomes the next U.S. president. Whether Republicans or Democrats take power it has nothing to do with us. U.S. politicians have always had a hostile policy against North Korea."

Ri is one of a handful of North Koreans who can access the Internet. State media doesn't cover details of the U.S. presidential campaign. The average person wouldn't even recognize any of the candidates.

In recent months each has spoken out against North Korea's nuclear and missile programs. Republican frontrunner Donald Trump shocked American allies in Asia when he suggested Japan and South Korea could arm themselves with nuclear weapons.

TRUMP: Nobody has them. So North Korea has nukes. Japan has a problem with that. I mean, they have a big problem with that. Maybe they would in fact be better off if they defend themselves from North Korea. Maybe we would be better off --

WALLACE: With nukes?

TRUMP: Including with nukes, yes.

RIPLEY (on camera): What is North Korea's response?

(Voice-over): "Donald Trump's remarks are totally absurd and illogical," he says. "The U.S. tells us to give up our nuclear program. He's preparing a nuclear attack against us and on the other hand would tell its allies to have nuclear weapons? Isn't this a double standard?"

Pyongyang has not officially responded to Trump's remarks. Last week North Korean propaganda attempted political satire adopting the voice of Abraham Lincoln scolding President Obama for U.S. nuclear policy.

Even in a country known for bellicose rhetoric Ri believes Trump's ideology is dangerous.

"Trump's remarks give us a deeper look at America's hostile policy against my country," he says. "Simply put, America's hostile acts against us are making the situation on the Korean peninsula worse."

He warns a policy like Trump's would only escalate North Korea's nuclear arms race.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

RIPLEY: And in fact, there is growing concern among many who are watching this country's activities, analyzing spy satellite data that there may be preparations under way right now here in North Korea for yet another nuclear test. Remember there was that purported H-bomb test earlier this year. This would be the fifth nuclear test and it could happen pretty soon because next month there's a major political gathering where Kim Jong-un, the supreme leader, is expected to actually make himself even more powerful by shuffling around party leadership.

So, Pam, it just goes to show the stakes are high and any inflammatory rhetoric certainly doesn't help the situation when it comes to this country.

BROWN: All right. Incredible reporting, Will Ripley from Pyongyang, North Korea. Thank you so much for that.

And turning now to a developing situation out of London. Police are investigating whether a drone struck a passenger plane as it was landing at Heathrow Airport today.

I want to go straight to CNN senior international correspondent Fred Pleitgen in London -- Fred.

FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes. Hi, Pamela. Certainly quite a concerning incident that apparently happened at Heathrow earlier today. Apparently it was going on -- this was a flight that came from Geneva and was due to land at Heathrow. Really in the final stages of that flight.

The flight itself is about an hour and half long. There were 132 passengers on board the aircraft and five crew members and pilot said apparently that as he was coming in that an object struck the front of the aircraft that he believes is a drone.

Now we reached out to British Airways, which is the airline where all of this happen, and they only came back and gave us a statement and said, "Detectives are investigating after an object hit the front of the passenger plane as it approached Heathrow's Terminal 5 at around 12:30 p.m."

Now the plane after landing -- it landed safely, but after landing was investigated by technicians on the ground. They deemed it safe it fly and allowed it to take off again. However, of course this is an incident that is causing a great deal of concern among pilots here in the UK.

BROWN: And has anything like this ever happened before? I know there's been a lot of concern about drones coming close to planes. But anything like it before?

PLEITGEN: Yes. You know, you're absolutely right. There has been a lot of concern and there have been a lot of near misses apparently in the past. Now the pilots' union here in Britain has said that there have been some 23 similar things that have happened in the past six months where drones became very, very close to airplanes, in some cases only about 70 feet away.

[17:55:02] The British Pilots' Association put out a statement as well saying it was only a matter of time before something like this happened. They call for stricter laws and also for better training for people who do fly drones -- Pamela.

BROWN: That is truly frightening. Fred Pleitgen, thank you so much for bringing us the latest there out of London.

And meantime, turning back to politics, Donald Trump, Hillary Clinton, two self-identified New Yorkers, both in good position to win big in their home state primaries just two days from now.

Stay here, we're about to go live to upstate New York where the candidates are courting those voters who are still undecided.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: If you're looking out for a little bit of excitement to your next business trip to San Francisco, here is a quick way to get your adrenaline soaring when you're off the clock.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BENJAMIN AGUSTIN, SENIOR FLIGHT INSTRUCTOR, IFLY: I'm Benjamin Agustin. I'm a senior flight instructor at iFLY in San Francisco. IFLY is a vertical wind tunnel. It's an indoor skydiving facility. And what we do here is we simulate actual free fall.

Most of our customers are non-skydivers. A lot of times what I hear from people is, I'm too scared to jump out of the plane, but I'll try this. And this is the next best thing.

We're going to teach you everything you need to know about flying. You do that by having four huge fans on top of the building that re- circulate the wind through the bottom. There is one instructor inside the tunnel with the flyer. And there's going to be another instructor on the outside actually controlling the wind.

We have corporate groups, tourists, business travelers. Usually they're looking for something that is different, out of the ordinary and exciting adventure. And definitely we have that for them but also keep it very safe.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If you need a break from your monotonous day, this is a place to spend it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Well, you are in the CNN NEWSROOM. I'm Pamela Brown in for Poppy Harlow on this Sunday. Nice to have you along with us.

It is the race for the White House. And despite being a national contest, the focus for the next few days is right here in New York where I am.