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Paris Suspect Mohamed Abrini Arrested; New York Primary; Trump Skips Colorado Convention. Aired 1-1:30p ET

Aired April 8, 2016 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: -- CNN International Diplomatic Editor Nic Robertson. Nic, what more do we know about these arrests, the location, who exactly was captured?

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: We know from the Belgium prosecutor's office now that it was Mohamed Abrini, was one of the people captured, and also a man called Osama Crayan (ph).

Now, we don't have a lot of details about him. There is speculation in the Belgian media about his potential role or whereabouts during the Brussels attack. That hasn't been released to us on an official basis.

But with what we know about Mohamed Abrini, he was in the man who drove with Salah Abdeslam, one of the planners of the Paris attacks. Two days before the Paris attacks, drove from Brussels to Paris, picked up on CCTV camera at a gas station on route is believed to have had a role in helping plan the Paris attacks as well and also a had a role in the Brussels attacks as well. The nature of that role, we don't know.

For the authorities, Wolf, this is absolutely huge. They have got Salah Abdeslam, one of the plotters and planners behind both these attacks, in custody. They have a second person now. This gives them a huge advantage to be able to figure out if one of them is lying to them. They can cross reference -- cross reference information here. A big win for Belgian authorities today -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Isn't Mohamed Abri -- Mohamed Abdeslam, is he cooperating right now with authorities? Because he was supposedly being extradited from France -- from Belgium into France. What -- Salah Abdeslam, what do we know about his level of cooperation?

ROBERTSON: The picture is not entirely clear. What we know, the first day after he was arrested, his lawyer said that he was cooperating with Belgian authorities. He was going to fight extradition to France. Shortly after the attacks in Brussels, he changed his tune. He got a different lawyer. The lawyer said he wants to be extradited to France. He will answer questions about the Paris attacks in France. When the lawyer was questioned, will he answer questions about the Brussels attacks? The lawyer refused several times to answer that question so it's not clear.

But it was expected, once we heard from his lawyer, that he was willing to be extradited. That extradition would take 10 days. Now, in the last couple of days, we have learned, from Belgian authorities, that that extradition process is going to take much longer because they have questions they want to ask Salah Abdeslam -- Wolf.

BLITZER: I want you stand by, Nic.

I also want to bring in our panel. We're getting more information. Our Justice Correspondent Pamela Brown is working her sources. Our Chief National Security Correspondent Jim Sciutto is here. He's working his sources. Our CNN National Security Analyst Peter Bergen is with us. And U.S. retired Brigadier General Mark Kimmitt is with us as well.

First of all, Pamela, what are you learning from your sources about these arrests, potentially very, very significant in connection with the Paris terror attacks last November and the March 22nd attacks at the Brussels airport and the metro station there.

PAMELA BROWN, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, I can tell you, Wolf, that for some time, there has been speculation that Mohamed Abrini was, in fact, the man in the hat we've been seeing in that surveillance video. And I'm told by some intelligence and law enforcement sources in the United States, the belief is he is, in fact, the man in white.

There's not a consensus among everyone in the U.S. government, but there are people who have more confidence in the fact he is the man in white because of intelligence gathering, process of elimination, people they have already arrested, people, you know, that they know are in the network. They have looked at everything and they do believe that he could be the man in white.

Of course, they're relying on the Belgians to give that confirmation because you may remember, there was someone the Belgian authorities had released named Bisel Si (ph) who was initially thought to be the man in the white and wasn't. And so, people in the U.S. government are cautiously optimistic Abrini is the man in white.

BLITZER: And if he is, that would be a huge moment right now in this whole terror investigation.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: No question. It's already huge, even if it doesn't turn out to be him. One, because he has multiple ties to the Paris attacks. And he drove Salah Abdeslam, the last attacker as it were from the Paris attacks, to Paris two days before. He also drove with him after the attacks.

He was in the same safe house where two of the terrorists who carried the Paris attacks who died in those attacks. He was in that same safe house where they stayed before they carried them out. He also has ties to Abaaoud, of course, who we talked about as the mastermind, in effect.

So, he had multiple ties to the Paris attacks and the suspicion is ties to the Brussels attacks, even if he's not the man in that hat because it's believed to be the same cell that carried out Paris and Brussels. So, you have this kind of nexus coming to be here and he's essential to investigating the broader network.

Now, one piece of caution I would put out there, this is something that's been expressed to me by U.S. and French counterterror officials is, remember, Salah Abdeslam was captured on a Friday. Three days later on Monday, you had the Brussel's attacks carried out.

And part of the concern was because he was captured, a cell might jump into action to carry out something because they're concerned that the police would uncover further members of the network. Of course, we don't know that another attack is in the planning, but that is certainly a concern.

[13:05:10] I was just told on the phone a few moments ago, of French and Belgium authorities, that when you have a significant arrest like this, that other members of that network scramble. And, of course, the level of alert in Europe is already very high, it would be only higher, at this point, in the wake of this arrest.

BLITZER: That's a real concern right now. Peter Bergen, you've studied this for a long time. Salah Abdeslam, when he was arrested, there were the terror attacks at the Brussels airport at that subway station, the metro station over there in Brussels. And the fear, as Jim just points out, is if there are other terror plots in the works in Europe or elsewhere right now, they may accelerate their timing fearing that Mohamed Abrini might be talking to local authorities.

PETER BERGEN, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Right and hopefully Belgium counterterrorism officials won't make the same mistake they made last time with Abdeslam. They didn't ask him about what else was in the pipeline. So, hopefully that's the first thing they would ask Mohamed Abrini. They were doing a historical look at the Paris attacks. They should be looking at what is going to happen next.

BLITZER: But what if he just shuts up and he says, --

BERGEN: Well, I think --

(CROSSTALK)

BLITZER: -- I'm not talking? What can they do about that?

BERGEN: Well, I mean, you know, they can't -- you know -- that -- but -- you know, a skilled interrogator, build -- using the kind of usual techniques that skilled interrogators use might elicit something.

BLITZER: Because Salah Abdeslam's lawyer says he's not cooperating anymore. He wants to be extradited from Belgium to France. General Kimmitt, how do you deal with that? They have attorneys now in Belgium. They'll have attorneys in France. If they want to just shut up, what can the authorities do to try to get that information from them if they are true believers and they say, do whatever you want to us?

BRIGADIER GENERAL MARK KIMMITT (retired), FORMER ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF STATE FOR POLITICAL-MILITARY AFFAIRS: Well, they're probably not going to get the intelligence from these these guys if they clam up and the lawyers are going to tell them not to talk.

What they've got to do is widen the investigation, widen the intelligence gathering, make sure that the intelligence goes well beyond Belgium and France. This network is not localized simply in Belgium and France. It goes well beyond that.

This isn't intelligence. This is an interrogation operation. This isn't a military operation. And in many ways, this isn't a police operation. They're going to go where the intelligence takes them. And they've got to strengthen and increase their intelligence to find them.

BLITZER: If they have this Mohamed Abrini right now and he's a key player, they've really got to get him to talk within the next 24 hours to get -- to see if there's anything in the works right now.

KIMMITT: That's true. But this is another episode of "24." They can't take significant actions against him if he doesn't want to talk. His Lawyers are going to tell him not to talk. They are not going to use aggressive intelligence techniques to get the information.

BLITZER: What they used to call enhanced interrogation, what some people have called torture. And some people say, you know what? A situation like this, where there may be something in the works, enhanced interrogation techniques, General, might be appropriate.

KIMMITT: I don't think so. I don't think the Europeans really have the stomach for what we used to consider enhanced interrogation techniques, and I believe there's significant amount of European law that prevents that.

BLITZER: And so, you think, in Belgium and France, they don't do water boarding. They don't do stuff like that?

KIMMITT: I certainly don't.

BLITZER: You just had a very important interview this week with a top U.S. counterterrorism official who did not necessarily express a lot of confidence in what the U.S. colleagues, allies in Belgium are doing right now. The - and in other places in Europe as well.

BROWN: Right, I interviewed the director of the Terrorist Screening Center, Christopher Piehota. While he says cooperation has improved with Europe in the wake of the ISIS threat, the big concern among U.S. officials is that European officials are not routinely checking people who cross their border against terror watch lists.

So, the U.S. shares all of this data that it has collected about possible terrorists and the European officials, because of their privacy laws and perhaps resources, aren't using that data routinely to cross reference people at the borders. And that is a big concern for American officials.

SCIUTTO: And beyond the cooperation between Europe and the U.S., it's been described to me by multiple U.S. counterterror and intelligence officials that European intelligence agencies have a pre-911 mentality, in terms of sharing among themselves, and also even internal sharing inside those countries between the various intelligence agencies.

You remember this from (INAUDIBLE) in the 911 commission that even competitive relationships between the CIA, FBI and others. And they still see that mentality which causes problems. I mean, we talk about even competitive relationships within Belgium that has this very severe problem, in terms of information sharing.

BLITZER: All right, stand by guys. We're getting some more information. I want to take a quick break. We're going to have much more with the panel on these terror-related arrests in Brussels right now. Could one of those arrested be among Europe's most wanted terror suspects?

And later, Donald Trump is beefing up his team to focus on the fight for delegates. His senior adviser is standing by to join us live.

[13:14:48]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: We're covering the breaking news from Belgium. The prosecutor's office there says several, several arrests have now been made in connection with the terror attacks in Brussels. They announced one of those arrested is Mohamed Abrini who is a suspect in last November's terror attacks in Paris. Abrini was a childhood friend of the Paris terror suspect, Salah Abdeslam, who was arrested last month in Brussels, a few days before that terror attack at the Brussel's airport and the metro station.

Joining us, once again, from London is our CNN International Diplomatic Editor Nic Robertson. You're getting more information from your sources, Nic. What else are you learning?

ROBERTSON: Well, Wolf, what -- I think this goes to what we were talking about going into the break there which is this concern on the U.S. side that the tools have been given to European counterterrorism officials, the tools and the data, and that isn't being used properly and adequately.

The United States went through the 911 attacks the commission investigated and lessons were learned. I think the view from Europe, and of course one would expect that to be a reciprocal view, the view from Europe is, in Britain for example, they had the 77 attack, 2005, Madrid, Spain, they had the attack, horrible attack, in 2004. Neither country has had an attack since. They learned lessons. Britain, in fact, thwarted seven attacks in the last 18 months.

But what European counterterrorism officials say is that what they find that can happen and does happen is that when they ask their counterparts in the United States for additional help on information, because the United States has an ability to get into the Internet in the way that some of them here in Europe don't, they are asked reciprocally to provide a lot of information. They're not always able to provide it all. [13:15:15]

But the information they say they get back is often quite sort of heavily redacted in a way that they can't interpret it well. And we - this was witnessed in Europe at the end of last year where you had a terror alert in Geneva that didn't pan out. you had a terror alert in Brussels right before the new year that didn't pan out. And this they point to as information that was useful and they were happy to have it but it wasn't specific enough to be - to really aid them. And there was sort of, if you will, an overreaction.

So there's clearly, I mean clearly here we're hearing from both sides there are problems in the system and both sides need to get together and fix it. So that's, if you will, the reciprocal view coming back from Europe. But, of course, today is a good day for Belgian authorities. They have a second key player in these two attacks in Paris and Brussels and that's going to bring in a lot more information and I think we can be pretty sure, Wolf, that what they begin to get here, they're absolutely going to share with their colleagues and friends in the United States.

WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Yes, there may be more than just two suspects under arrests. There were several arrests, we're told, today. Mohamed Abrini is one of the names that has been publicly revealed, but there could be some other significant players, as well.

Pamela, is it possible that information the U.S. provided Belgian authorities in recent days, maybe information collected from the Internet or social media or whatever, played a role in the arrests today?

PAMELA BROWN, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: It's certainly possible. We don't know that for sure. We know there's been a lot of information sharing in the wake of the Brussels attacks. But a bulk of the information has come from the Belgian side and the U.S. officials, as Jim can attest to, are getting that information passed to them. But also there is that video that was released yesterday, the CCTV video, showing the man in the white with the hat walking for two hours after the attacks. It's unclear if perhaps that helped them in any way. Whether any witnesses came forward, that kind of thing. But we'll be interested to learn how these arrests happen knowing that Abrini has been on the run ever since the Paris attacks. And I find it really interesting that he was right under their noses in Brussels close to where Salah Abdeslam was arrested.

BLITZER: And it goes back -

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Abdeslam. Just like Abdeslam.

BROWN: Exactly.

BLITZER: And it's possible, it's by no means confirmed, Abrini is the guy in the hat.

SCIUTTO: Well, they're going to get - even if they don't have a clear image of his face, there is a lot of information in that video. You can determine height, gait, whether he's left-handed, right-handed. I mean those are things that they're checking against the man they have in - in custody right now. And I would just add to Nic's point there about, you know, there are human beings involved on both sides of the Atlantic in terms of intelligence sharing and, as always, there are political sensitivities. You will hear griping from this side saying they don't do enough. You'll hear griping from that side saying they don't give us enough and that, you know, it goes back again to 9/11. You heard that same kind of tension between U.S. intelligence agencies before - before then. And it's the kind of issue they're trying to correct now.

BLITZER: And ISIS in Raqqa, their headquarters in Syria, they hear about this, they're watching - presumably they're watching all the news media right now. They're going to try to make a point that they're still alive and well and kicking, aren't they?

PETER BERGEN, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Indeed. And I will say something about Mohamed Abrini. Let's say he says nothing. He still has pocket (ph) litter. He still has computers. He still has cell phones and he still has papers at the point that he was arrested. So all that will be very useful, even if he chooses to say absolutely nothing about what the network plans next.

BLITZER: What do you think they're going to do, ISIS?

BRIG. GEN. MARK KIMMITT, U.S. ARMY (RET.): Well, I - I think these type of attacks in Europe are pretty much energy drinks for ISIS around the world. They get renovated (ph), they get rehabilitated, they get in many ways excited about this kind of advertisement they get. This is free advertising for the organization. It demonstrates to the world that they are still relevant, they are still strong and they're still capable.

BLITZER: So, European authorities, you agree, should go on a higher state of alert right now?

KIMMITT: Oh, certainly. Every one of their intelligence, particularly their human intelligence agencies, should not be sleeping at night because that's the way they're going to find and predict future attacks.

BLITZER: Peter, do you agree?

BERGEN: I agree. And it was mystifying to me why the Belgians dropped their alert a few days after the attack. I just didn't get that. So - but clearly this is, you know, a real possibility. We've seen it already that, you know, this could be the -

BLITZER: Why would they do that? They went on a - they went on a higher state of alert right afterwards., but then they lowered it almost immediately.

SCIUTTO: It's a tough balance. We see it here, too. Because you don't want to under react or over react, right? I mean you want your country, you want your citizens to get back to normal to the degree that - to the degree that they can. And these are judgement calls at every step of the game. It's a difficult balance to strike.

BLITZER: You're working your sources presumably. We will know soon enough whether this Mohamed Abrini is, in fact, the man who was with that luggage, with that cart at the airport, with that explosive material inside. If, in fact, it turns out he is, in fact, the same individual, that would be a huge moment.

BROWN: Absolutely. I think most people hope that it is because the concern is that the man who put a bomb in the airport in Brussels was still on the loose. And so, of course, the hope that he is in custody. As I mentioned earlier, speculation early on was that Mohamed Abrini was him just based on the connection with the terrorist attacks. He was the last know terror suspect connected to those attacks. And we know the Brussels network was connected to Paris. But through more intelligence sharing, through process of elimination, U.S. officials, some of them, have more confidence and believe that that is, in fact, the connection.

[13:20:24] BLITZER: All right, we'll see if it is. We're going to stay on top of this story, the breaking news, we're following it.

We're also following the presidential contest here in the United States. We're about to hit the presidential campaign trail. Democrats, they are focusing in on New York state and the tone of the campaign. Lots of developments today. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[13:25:12] BLITZER: Now to the race for president in the United States. The Democrats are campaigning in New York state today ahead of the April 19th primary there. We're also seeing slowing down, of sorts, of the negative back and forth, though the Sanders' camp still putting the blame on the Clinton campaign for starting this latest fight.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JEFF WEAVER, CAMPAIGN MANAGER, BERNIE SANDERS 2016: Bernie Sanders has really set the message in this race. I mean he has dominated the issue terrain in this race. But the Clinton campaign really is in control of the tone. So they set the tone. If they want a harsh tone, if they want sharp elbows in New York, we're happy to participate on that level.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Let's go to our senior Washington correspondent Jeff Zeleny. He's in Brooklyn for us right now. That's where Bernie Sanders is holding a couple of events today. He was born in Brooklyn, as we all know. Listen to what each of the candidates, Jeff, said on the "Today" show this morning when they were asked the question about qualification to be president.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is he qualified to be president? HILLARY CLINTON (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Well, here's what I believe. I believe that voters will be looking at both of us, but I will take Bernie Sanders over Donald Trump or Ted Cruz anytime.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She's qualified?

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: She - of course.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Of course. He said she is qualified. That's a change from what he said today - yesterday to today, before the - she's saying he's more qualified to be president than any of the Republican candidates, but is she specifically saying he is qualified?

JEFF ZELENY, CNN SENIOR WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, she hasn't said that yet specifically. And I think until she does, she may continue to be asked about it. But there's no doubt that there's a bit of a cooling of temperatures, if you will. A bit of a cease fire in this Democratic presidential campaign.

Bernie Sanders was on "The View" just a short time ago and he said, look, we certainly don't want to be acting like Republicans. We want to keep focusing on issues. But it just underscores how competitive and contentious this race is going into that New York primary.

I am here in Brooklyn. Right behind me here there's going to be a rally that Bernie Sanders is going to be holding later this afternoon. We're standing outside that right now. But he is really fighting hard for New York. He's also going to be holding a bit of a rally this afternoon outside of his childhood home. So they are clearly trying to make the case that he is born in New York and he, you know, has a connection here. But it's still an uphill battle for Bernie Sanders and this fight for New York. She, of course, was twice elected here. And, you know, it's her adopted home state and certainly has spent more time here recently than he has, Wolf.

BLITZER: Yes, she's lived in New York state basically since she left the White House when she was first lady, became a U.S. senator, served as a U.S. senator for eight years before becoming secretary of state for four years.

Let's talk a little bit about what's going on in the Republican side, Jeff. Colorado is choosing more delegates today and tomorrow. Donald Trump is not going there. Ted Cruz is going there. What's at stake in Colorado?

ZELENY: Well, Wolf, the Republican race is really becoming a person- by-person, delegate-by delegate battle now. That's why Ted Cruz is going out to Colorado tomorrow. A bit of an interesting and quirky process in Colorado. Each of the seven congressional districts is holding elections for their own delegates here. And not all of them are bound to a particular candidate. That's why Ted Cruz is trying to win them over right now here.

Now, Donald Trump certainly has a big lead over all in the delegates, but Ted Cruz is gaining ground and he's doing it by playing the rules very well. He's going out to these state conventions, these county conventions. So by the end of the weekend, he is almost certain to have, you know, at least a handful or a couple handfuls more of delegates in this pocket. Still behind Donald Trump, but that's what this is being boiled down to, a very local-type situation in Colorado where person by person by person is saying who they are going to support to represent their district in Colorado, Wolf.

BLITZER: All right, Jeff, thanks very much. Jeff Zeleny's in Brooklyn for us.

I want to bring in Barry Bennett right now, he's a senior advisor to the Trump campaign.

Why isn't he going out to Colorado like Ted Cruz, Donald Trump, to try to get a few more of those so-called unbound delegates?

BARRY BENNETT, TRUMP CAMPAIGN SENIOR ADVISER: Well, the way the Colorado system works, you literally had to start doing this even before Donald Trump was in the race. It's a pyramid up system where Ted Cruz has been running for a couple of years so he's got a distinct advantage. So expectations are fairly low in Colorado, but we have 95 available in New York and the citizens of Connecticut, Pennsylvania, and New Jersey are all watching, as well, which are coming up next.

BLITZER: So he's basically - is he basically giving up on those unbound Colorado delegates?

BENNETT: Well, we've sent a team out there but we don't have very high expectations.

BLITZER: A senior team or just a team?

BENNETT: A senior team. Senior.

BLITZER: Yes. I want you to listen to what Paul Manafort, he's the latest strategic adviser, delegate adviser -

BENNETT: Right.

BLITZER: Whatever you want to call him, to the Trump campaign. He was on CNN's "New Day" with Chris Cuomo this morning and he said this.

[13:29:54] (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PAUL MANAFORT, TRUMP'S CONVENTION MANAGER: The reality is, Ted Cruz has seen his best day. The reality is, this convention process will be over with sometime in June, probably June 7th. And it will be apparent to the world that Trump is over the 1,237 number. There's Pennsylvania. There's - there's New Jersey. There's Maryland. There's Connecticut. These are his wheelhouse. And, yes, California's going to...