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Hulk Hogan Takes on Gawker; Hillary vs. Bernie; Ted Cruz Surging?. Aired 3-3:30p ET

Aired March 7, 2016 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[15:00:05]

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: Four states polled their Republican nominating contests tomorrow. So, in total here, we're talking 150 delegates up for grabs.

And the races may confirm a trend from Saturday, when Ted Cruz grabbed the most delegates, massive wins both in Kansas and in Maine. Trump did win in Kentucky and Louisiana, but by much smaller margins there. The billionaire still leads in the overall delegate count, but no question Ted Cruz is closing in, and this.

New poll taken just this past weekend shows Florida Senator Marco Rubio is in serious trouble. He is behind Donald Trump in Florida, his home state, by eight points.

A lot to talk about. Let me bring in journalist and author David Gregory, who served as moderator of NBC's "Meet the Press," A.B. Stoddard, associate editor at "The Hill."

So, welcome both of you.

And on those numbers, David Gregory, with regard to Florida, the poll finds Trump eight points ahead of Florida -- ahead of Rubio in Florida, and in a hypothetical between Trump and Rubio, Trump edges out Rubio by a statistically not significant two points. What does Rubio have left to do here?

DAVID GREGORY, FORMER MODERATOR, "MEET THE PRESS": He's got to win. He's got to overcome those numbers on Election Day.

BALDWIN: How?

GREGORY: One of the things we have seen is that people who have been deciding late have been moving away from Trump. So if any of the strategy that Rubio's employed, attacking Trump on all platforms, including in the debate last Thursday, if any of that is working, maybe we will see that among late-deciders.

But the reality is Rubio is in, I think, a difficult situation. It all comes down to Florida for him, because, as you mentioned, Cruz is starting to consolidate that conservative vote. He had a very strong debate last Thursday. I think things are moving in his direction in terms of being able to go on one with Trump.

BALDWIN: Trump speaking out just a moment ago.

A.B., let me ask you about this, talking about both senators. Here you go.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: There's always a lobbyist to take care of a politician. They have lobbyists where they virtually advertise, I will take care of Rubio. They have guys that specialize in Rubio. They have guys that specialize in lying Ted Cruz, OK? No, they specialize.

Ted Cruz, he comes in, Bible high, Bible high, puts the Bible down and then lies to you. He told you -- it's unbelievable.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: OK. There's some of the rhetoric, A.B. But on the substance, I mean, again, margin of victory over this weekend, do you think he's -- I don't know if Trump gets nervous, but are there nerves here? The vulnerability potential.

A.B. STODDARD, ASSOCIATE EDITOR, "THE HILL": Yes, I don't know if he gets nervous, but he gets something different, because if you saw him on Saturday night, he was totally deflated.

He came out and said the same thing he always does, which is that it was amazing, but all the energy was gone. And that's because the places where he beat Cruz, he just beat him. The places where Cruz beat him, he crushed him, 25 points in Kansas, where there was all this news that he -- even Donald Trump tweeted about in the afternoon that the lines were around, you know, the entire city and near every precinct, polling place.

BALDWIN: He was going to Kansas instead of CPAC.

STODDARD: Right. And it was once against increased turnout because of Trump.

Well, it wasn't. It was against Trump and for Cruz. So I think there's reason for him to pause when he reads the exit polling data and stuff, what David mentioned, that late-breakers have gone in the earlier states to Rubio, and then in Louisiana early voters went for Trump and late-breakers went for Cruz, and so he only won and eked out a victory in Louisiana because of early voting.

If there's a trend and it's turning against him, he has to be a little bit nervous about the contests going forward. There's one poll with Kasich ahead in Michigan. Maybe they will be some surprise there where he doesn't win by much. Maybe the non-Trump delegate haul that night is bigger than his delegate haul. That's what happened on Saturday night.

And so Cruz is definitely best-positioned of all of them. Rubio, I agree, has a very tough slog in Florida. Trump is really like a resident there. He has all those businesses. I think he's probably going to win it. But I think he's nervous about Cruz and he's nervous about whatever the cumulative effect of his flip-flops and his debate performances, the last two particularly, have done to these recent contests.

BALDWIN: David, I think A.B. makes an excellent point just on the notion that we have been covering so much about the historic Republican turnout.

You cannot just assume that's because of Donald Trump. Please continue.

GREGORY: Well, right, because Ted Cruz is quite unconventional as well. If you're part of the party faithful who have lost faith in the Republican Party, then you look towards Ted Cruz as a guy who is certainly not playing well in Washington.

Just ask any of the elected officials in Washington with whom he's worked. They're not so happy that he is emerging as the alternative. Let's not forget John Kasich in all this because he really is a moderate alternative, an establishment alternative to what we're seeing, because Donald Trump kind of defies the political lanes.

[15:05:05]

We have been talking about that a lot. He's got evangelicals, he's got conservatives, he's got moderates, young, old. He's really going in a lot of different directions to consolidate the party. But Kasich is one who has kind of emerged as someone who's not going negative, is kind of an adult in the debates.

He's making a play for the Upper Midwest. So we will look towards the Michigan results and then, of course, wait to see how he does since he's the governor of Ohio to see what he's got. Now, the one thing, Trump calling for Rubio to get out, he still benefits the bigger the field is.

And so I wonder why...

BALDWIN: Trump benefits the most?

GREGORY: ... he wants to consolidates this race.

STODDARD: I think Trump's doing that because he wants Rubio to stay in through the 15th.

(LAUGHTER)

GREGORY: Yes. Maybe that's it. Maybe it's the reverse psychology.

But I think those are the people that we, you know, really look at here. And I agree with A.B. The cumulative effect of very specific arguments against Trump, that he's not conservative, and even more than that, that he's not authentic, that you can't trust him, that he will negotiate on deportation of illegal immigrants, which has been such an important issue for him, that he will backtrack on issues like forcing the military to torture, even if it's against the law. Then he backtracked on that, that you can't just trust where the guy is really coming from.

BALDWIN: Well, I'm still back -- hang on. I'm still back on John Kasich. He did the show Friday and he said he would be excited at the notion of a brokered convention. Yes, he said, I'm the adult in the room.

We were just fresh off talking about that debate the night before. And also interestingly, former California Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger officially endorsing him over the weekend. So he's still getting these high-profile endorsements. What is best-case scenario, realistic best-case scenario, David Gregory, for John Kasich here?

GREGORY: I think you laid it out. I think that he could win Ohio, that he could start to build his delegate take and then he could try to keep Trump from going over the top.

So let's assume that you have got Cruz, who's on the ascent. He's taking a lot of delegates, that Kasich finds some lane here, and that Trump can't get to 1,237 and go over the top by the time they go to Cleveland. Then something can happen.

Now, we keep saying something can happen in a brokered convention. I'm not exactly sure what that would look like. The more Trump goes along and the more delegates that he stacks up, the more votes he gets, the bigger of an issue this will be. The notion that somehow you will have a negotiated settlement, what does Trump get in all of that? Does he just go home?

And if he does that, if he storms out, there are a lot of people who will go with him and then the party really crumbles.

BALDWIN: OK. Thank you for saying that, because we have been talking about something happening, and I wasn't quite sure what the something was either, so that makes me feel better if you, David Gregory, don't.

Finally to you, A.B., there was a piece in "The Washington Post" this morning and it was detailing what they described as the meltdown of the Marco Rubio campaign. They were, you know, blaming the campaign and the messaging and one strategist said this about the campaign -- quote -- "They have no infrastructure. They don't have the operation in the states to help him get over the top. He should be a finalist going all the way to California and he's not."

But at the end of the day, I made this point last hour and I'm curious what you think, at the end of the day, the buck stops with the candidate, does it not?

STODDARD: Oh, it always does.

Look, this was a well-planned campaign. They started early enough. They actually laid a lot of groundwork a year ago in South Carolina. Very impressive early moves. Then you saw this sort of confusion where there wasn't an early state that he was targeting. What was he going to win?

Obviously, he's only won Minnesota and Puerto Rico. He wants to win Iowa tomorrow night. It's really been a rough road. Something went wrong. And the candidate is always at the end of the day accountable. He's been a good candidate with the exception of the Gang of Eight issue. The immigration issue has really dogged him.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: Chris Christie too.

STODDARD: But he's really in charge of his campaign, remember, just like Trump is, just like Obama was. At the end of the day, he's in charge of how the money is spent, what the message is and where they put their resources.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: Go ahead, David.

GREGORY: I would say that the reason this does matter is, you know, you look at how well Cruz has done, a lot of that is organization. I mean, a candidate has to back it up, there's no doubt.

But really having the diagnostic tools to be able to target voters and who's going to come out for you and turn out, these things really matter. It's certainly benefited Obama in 2008 and I think we're seeing some of that for Cruz now as well and that's taking away from Rubio.

BALDWIN: David Gregory, do me a favor and stick around.

A.B. Stoddard, as always, thank you, thank you, thank you.

Reminder, the Republican candidates will face off again this Thursday night. Jake Tapper moderates the CNN Republican presidential debate live from Miami, 8:30 Eastern, here on CNN.

But now to the Democrats and that fiery CNN debate in Flint, Michigan, where the toxic water crisis there was a front-and-center issue.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HILLARY RODHAM CLINTON (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: What is more important than the health and well-being of the people, particularly children? It is raining lead in Flint, and the state is derelict in not coming forward with the money that is required.

[15:10:05]

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (VT-I), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: The governor of this state should understand that his dereliction of duty was irresponsible. He should resign.

Look, I was on a picket line in early 1990s against NAFTA because you didn't need a Ph.D. in economics to understand that American workers should not be forced to compete against people in Mexico making 25 cents an hour.

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)

CLINTON: Well, I will tell you something else that Senator Sanders was against. He was against the auto bailout.

I voted to save the auto industry.

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)

CLINTON: He voted against the money that ended up saving the auto industry. I think that is a pretty big difference.

SANDERS: Whoa. Well, I -- if you are talking about the Wall Street bailout, where some of your friends destroyed this economy...

CLINTON: You know...

SANDERS: ... through -- excuse me, I'm talking.

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Let him respond.

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)

CLINTON: If you're going to talk, tell the whole story .

We have our differences. And we get into vigorous debate about issues. But compare the substance of this debate with what you saw on the Republican stage last week.

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)

SANDERS: We are, if elected president, going to invest a lot of money into mental health. And when you watch these Republican debates, you know why we need to invest in mental health.

(LAUGHTER)

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: That was just a preview. We will talk about substance, we will talk about their tone, and Hillary Clinton, you just got a preview, surprise attack in her back pocket.

Plus, it is what everyone is talking about, the question these candidates have never been asked before about race. You will hear their answers.

Plus, live pictures, here you go, Hulk Hogan on the stand against gossip Web site Gawker in the case involving his sex tape. Why Hulk Hogan says the Web site had no right to post it.

You're watching CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:16:05]

BALDWIN: Hillary Clinton now making her pitch to voters in Michigan.

Just a couple minutes ago, she said she would enlist the help, her word, of Bernie Sanders if she were to win the Democratic Party nomination for president, just as she did for Barack Obama back in 2008, this after Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders really clashed in a major way on that CNN debate stage on everything from corporate greed to whose turn it was to talk.

So, joining me now, he's back, David Gregory, journalist and former moderator of "Meet the Press," and with us now, Jeff Zeleny, CNN senior Washington correspondent.

So, Mr. Zeleny, let me begin with you here.

We will obviously talk a lot about the debate, but we're going to kick things off with a huge fan and supporter of Bernie Sanders, actor Mark Ruffalo, who spoke with you last evening. Tell me what he had to say.

JEFF ZELENY, CNN SENIOR WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: Well, Brooke, it was really interesting.

Of course, we have seen Mark Ruffalo most recently in the movie "Spotlight," where he was playing the role of a "Boston Globe" print reporter. It was interesting to see him walking around in the print filing center, in the spin room there after the debate and he was kind of getting a look at journalists there.

So, he was really there to talk about Bernie Sanders and why he's supporting Bernie Sanders. Of course, Mark Ruffalo is from Wisconsin. He thinks that Bernie Sanders can do very well in the Wisconsin primary, which isn't until April.

But first and foremost, we asked him why Bernie Sanders for this moment and why he thinks he's resonating so much right now.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARK RUFFALO, ACTOR: He is the exact person we need right now in America, and because when you look at his political career over the last 30 years, he's exactly who he's always been. And his message has never changed. And his fight for the working class and middle class and poor has always been consistent.

And he has a certain kind of credibility that I think Americans are craving at this moment in our political kind of zeitgeist right now. I mean, with the emergence of Donald Trump and even Bernie Sanders in some degree, I think what we're seeing is a kind of crisis of credibility in our federal government, in our political system.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ZELENY: And, Brooke, he kept talking about credibility and authenticity, that Bernie Sanders is kind of an unlikely person to, you know -- the oldest candidate in the race here that is drawing the youngest group of supporters here.

So, interesting that he is one of the surrogates and supporters on team Sanders.

BALDWIN: All right, so on team Sanders, but to both of them, and I would love to pose this to both of you, on substance, right, and there's been a bit of substance at these debates on the Democratic side.

You have one issue which Hillary Clinton hadn't really brought out of her back pocket until last night, ahead of, of course, Michigan voting, just in the backyard of Detroit. She brings up the auto bailout. Here it was.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CLINTON: I voted to save the auto industry.

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)

CLINTON: He voted against the money that ended up saving the auto industry. I think that is a pretty big difference.

SANDERS: Whoa.

Did I vote against the Wall Street bailout?

When billionaires on Wall Street destroyed this economy, they went to Congress and they said, oh, please, we'll be good boys. Bail us out. You know what I said? I said, let the billionaires themselves bail out Wall Street. It shouldn't be the middle class of this country.

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: David, what did you think about that back and forth?

GREGORY: I was listening to that last night after my daughter's basketball game. And I had three kids in the car. And we listened to the exchange. And she said, but he didn't answer the question about the auto thing.

BALDWIN: Oh, astute daughter.

GREGORY: So, I think, from a debate point of view, it was just mishandled by him.

She was loaded on that, for sure, sitting on the debate stage in Flint. And she used it very, very effectively. And I think what Bernie Sanders probably wanted to say is yes, I opposed it, here's why, because it was coupled in with the TARP money and all the rest, but I think it came off as a solid blow against him landed by her.

[15:20:02]

BALDWIN: Zeleny, what did you think? Then I want to get to tone.

ZELENY: I think that David's right.

We all remember those contentious votes there in January of '09. And he didn't come back with a fact-check, because he simply wasn't prepared for it. It's something the Clinton campaign had not telegraphed at all. He did support the bailout in an earlier vote in December of '08.

But back when it was lumped into that, you know, broader bailout of the banks and other things, he voted against it. But, boy, he seemed sort of sucker-punched by it, I think. He's doing pretty well defending it this afternoon today on the campaign trail, but that has a much smaller audience than yesterday at that debate.

It's one of those rare moments where I think she definitely got the better of him in that moment, not totally accurate, but on a debate stage, fair game.

BALDWIN: David, what did you think, just quickly? Tone, finger- pointing? I'm not finished? Par for the course? You got to have sharp elbows in a debate or what?

GREGORY: I listened to that initially and I thought, ooh, that seemed a little rude. And then I remembered that I had watched the Republican debates, and that that was nothing.

So, you know, the idea that -- I mean, I think it's all -- I think it's pretty tame. Look, the contrast is huge between Secretary Clinton and Senator Sanders and what we're seeing on the Republican side. They're going after each other. There's no question about it. But it is substantive.

And at the end of the day, she is in a commanding position. And he is acting like it. He is holding back a little bit of fire to emphasize the fact that he will ultimately support her and is not going to try to completely take her down. So I thought, you know, yes, were there a couple of tense moments? You should hope so. It's a debate after all and there's a lot at stake.

BALDWIN: Yes. David Gregory, Jeff Zeleny, thank you, gentlemen, both very much.

As for the Dems and these two candidates, they will not have too long to regroup until they meet each other once again. The Univision Democratic presidential debate airs just two days from now, Wednesday, at 9:00 Eastern, on Univision in Spanish and here in English here on CNN.

Still ahead, the pastor of a Detroit church says she is supporting Hillary Clinton because she -- quote -- "took a licking, kept on ticking," and she is talking about Clinton's personal life. We will talk to that pastor live coming up. Also ahead, Hulk Hogan has been on the stand today talking about that

sex tape that was released and the lawsuit that was filed once it was made public. Hear from the wrestler in his own words next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:26:53]

BALDWIN: And we're back. You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

Hulk Hogan, Hulk Hogan is on the witness stand in Florida right now. He's testifying in this $100 million lawsuit against gossip Web site Gawker publishing a copy of his sex tape. Now, Gawker.com says their defense is essentially they're protected by the First Amendment, that this was newsworthy for them.

Lawyers for the site say Hogan lived a public life and that is just part of that life.

Minutes ago, on the stand, Hulk Hogan on the stand told the jury about the first time he heard about the existence of this tape being out there.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HULK HOGAN, FORMER PROFESSIONAL WRESTLER: My arms had never done this before. My hands started shaking violently when I got off the phone. And I didn't go into a spasm, but it was one of those things where I couldn't quite shaking.

And David -- I finally answered the phone back after David called me several times, and he talked me down, because he was the only person that I had in my life that I believe loved me and actually just was my friend.

And then that interview happened that afternoon. So it was probably four or five hours later. So, I was pretty much on autopilot there just trying to still make sense of everything.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Joining me now, trial attorney Marie Napoli and criminal defense attorney Philip Holloway.

Wonderful having you both on. We will get to the crux of the case in a second, but, Marie, let me just turn to you and ask you this.

Watching him, one of the most recognizable, bandanna and the whole deal, on the stand, talking about when he first heard about the tape. Is he sympathetic? Is he a sympathetic witness?

MARIE NAPOLI, ATTORNEY: I think he's very sympathetic.

BALDWIN: Why?

NAPOLI: I feel for him. He seems like a genuine person. Unfortunately, he's a public figure, and it is a public concern. So I

feel bad for him that he's going through this, but I don't think he ultimately will be successful in the case.

BALDWIN: You don't?

NAPOLI: No.

BALDWIN: You don't?

Philip Holloway, what do you think? Because, essentially, he had this radio show. He was talking about his sex wife. He is a public persona. Obviously, his side maintaining this did him harm. What do you think?

PHILIP HOLLOWAY, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Brooke, it's not the fact that he's a public figure necessarily. That's a big part of it.

But the thing is, as being a public figure, he injected his own personal life, in fact, his sex life and some details about his marriage into the public conversation. So that is what is going to be the problem for him from a constitutional perspective.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: So, because he does that, that makes him fair game, even in a sliver of his private life?

HOLLOWAY: Right, because even in a sliver of his private life, he talks about this stuff. He opens the door, so to speak, to this type of a conversation.

And so now he wants to complain when a news organization, if you can call it a news organization, or somebody else puts this information out there into the public domain.

In Florida, you can sue for an invasion of privacy on the basis of public disclosure of private facts. But the kicker is that it has to be facts that are not newsworthy.

The question is, what, in fact, is newsworthy? And the fact that he's a public figure and he's injected this issue into the public conversation, I think, causes him to lose in the long run, maybe not with a jury, but probably on appeal.

BALDWIN: All right.

OK. Here's what Gawker -- this is part of -- this is their statement they released: "Hulk Hogan was more than willing to talk about his sex life."