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Racism in Scalia Fight?; Presidential Race Heating Up. Aired 3- 3:30p ET

Aired February 18, 2016 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[15:00:01]

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Richard refuses to let the disease stop him. The 70- year-old still plays piano several times a week.

RICHARD HORN, LIVING WITH PARKINSON'S DISEASE: It improves my coordination pretty dramatically.

Everybody gets four cards.

GUPTA: And performs magic. He says his shows have actually gotten better.

HORN: It changed my focus. To people, poetry and artistry are things that drive magic. Not fast hands.

GUPTA: He's also encouraging others not to give up, just like him.

HORN: For the moment I'm motivated to keep going. It will get harder, but it isn't necessarily going to stop me.

GUPTA: Dr. Sanjay Gupta, CNN, reporting.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: Top of the hour, 3:00 p.m. Eastern. I'm Poppy Harlow, in today for my friend Brooke Baldwin. This is CNN's special coverage of a critical moment in the race for the White House.

ERIN BURNETT, CNN ANCHOR: And, Poppy, I'm Erin Burnett here in Columbia, South Carolina.

In just a few hours, CNN's second town hall with the Republican presidential candidates will happen right here where I'm standing and, wow, what a day it is to hear from them, including Donald Trump, who will be here with us in a few hours.

We're going to get to the first question voters may ask of Trump tonight, which is how and why he took on the leader of 1.2 billion Catholics worldwide. Not even the Holy Father was spared Trump's counterpunch today.

So, let me set this up, because the pope was taking questions from reporters on a flight to Rome after his visit to the U.S. Mexican border. He was asked about Donald Trump. He was asked specifically about Trump's plan to build a wall along the southern border of the U.S. and Trump's accusation that Mexico was using the pope as a political pawn.

So, the pope, though, was unafraid to be political and here's what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

POPE FRANCIS, LEADER OF CATHOLIC CHURCH (through translator): Thank God he said I was a politician, because Aristotle defined the human person as animal politicus, so at least I'm a human person. As to whether I'm a pawn, well, maybe. I don't know. I will leave that up to your judgment and that of the people.

And then a person who thinks only about building walls, wherever they may be located, and not building bridges, is not a Christian. This is not in the Gospel. As far as what you said about whether I would advise to vote or not vote, I am not going to get involved in that. I say only that this man is not a Christian if he has said things like that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: Not a Christian.

Well, joining me now, CNN's Sara Murray, who is live in Gaffney, South Carolina, where Trump set to speak in just a couple of hours, before coming here to our town hall.

Sara, nobody really expected the pope to come out and say this, and to say, to suggest that Donald Trump is not a Christian. How did Trump respond to him?

SARA MURRAY, CNN NATIONAL POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Erin, at his first event today, Donald Trump said it was unbelievable to have the pope questioning his Christianity, certainly a rare moment in politics.

But as Donald Trump is wont to do, he took it a step further and said the Vatican could actually use a President Trump to protect it against ISIS.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: If and when the Vatican is attacked by ISIS, which, as everyone knows, is ISIS' ultimate trophy, I can promise you that the pope would have only wished and prayed that Donald Trump would have been president, because --

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)

TRUMP: It's true, it's true, because this would not have happened. ISIS would have been eradicated, unlike what is happening now with our all-talk, no-action politicians.

(END VIDEO CLIP) MURRAY: Now, Erin, a lot of bizarre things happen in South Carolina politics. But the fact that you have the pope coming out and saying the Republican front-runner doesn't seem to be a Christian just days before the South Carolina primary, which, of course, has a big evangelical population, I have to say this is certainly an incredible moment in politics, even for South Carolina, Erin.

BURNETT: It certainly is.

All right, Jeb Bush is Catholic, OK, just to make just anyone who is unaware of that he is Catholic, and he was asked today directly on what's going on now between Donald Trump and the pope, and, you know, he did not jump in and take the pope's side, in fact, the opposite. It actually sounded pretty clear that he was defending Donald Trump, at least on one part of this. Here's Jeb Bush.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JEB BUSH (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I don't question anybody's Christianity because I honestly believe that's a relationship you have with your creator. And it only enables bad behavior when you -- when someone from outside of our country talks about Donald Trump.

QUESTION: (OFF-MIKE) Pope Francis said it was a person who thinks only about building walls, wherever they may be, and not building bridges, is not Christian.

BUSH: I don't know what that means.

QUESTION: You don't support a wall?

BUSH: I support walls and fencing where it's appropriate for sure. I also believe that we ought to have other parts of this, which is forward-leaning the Border Patrol, using drone technology, using GPS technology.

[15:05:05]

Across the board, we ought to have a strategy to protect our border. And that is clear. But that is not that's not an un-Christian thing to do, to make sure that people don't come across our border illegally. That's a just thing to do.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BURNETT: It's such a tough spot for a lot of these Republican candidates, of course, including Jeb Bush. You know, they all support wall-type structures in one form or another.

Bush added he respects the pope and would avoid any back and forth with him.

Joining me now, our politics executive editor Mark Preston, and our chief political analyst Gloria Borger.

This is a pretty stunning thing. No one expected it, Mark, but it is tough because you have Jeb Bush essentially defending Donald Trump on the issue of being a Christian is between you and your creator. And that's your thing to figure out, not the pope's, but also these candidates -- a wall is some shape or form, as I described it, is something they we all sort of want.

MARK PRESTON, CNN POLITICS EXECUTIVE EDITOR: Right. There's so much to unpack here, right?

We had the pope weighing in on the U.S. presidential race, and that in itself is amazing, the fact that he is actually weighing in. As you said, he represents a lot of Catholics, but he has been a controversial pope when it comes to conservatives, specifically because they think maybe he's going too far when it comes to social issues. He's more accepting of some of the things that social conservatives are not.

To your point, though, about the wall, yes, that is one of the bedrocks for many of these candidates that are running right now. They believe a wall needs to be built along the Mexican border somewhere or another. Donald Trump thinks that Mexico is going to pay for it. Everyone says that that is not true.

And it also does bring religion into the race where we haven't seen it yet thus far, and certainly not to this extent. When there's such a big evangelical vote -- we should point out not all evangelicals actually like Catholics. There a rift right there too, Jeb Bush walking a fine line just about an hour-and-a-half ago.

GLORIA BORGER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: I would have to say this is the first time in the last few weeks that Jeb Bush hasn't taken the opportunity to take a whack at Donald Trump. And it was kind of teed up for him.

BURNETT: Right. No, he very clearly did not want to.

BORGER: I think he was actually smart not to, because Republicans, as Mark was saying, all share some form of immigration policy that the pope probably wouldn't like.

I don't think Jeb Bush wanted to start questioning someone else's Christianity. I think he kind of backed off of it. And the way he did attack him though was to say after Trump spoke about ISIS and I would fight ISIS, he said he's not qualified to be commander in chief, so he took him on, on that, but stayed way back on this.

BURNETT: He had a frustration. It was sort of like, I don't want anyone from outside this country weighing in, sort of you could see him saying, I cannot believe the pope just legitimized Donald Trump.

(CROSSTALK)

PRESTON: Emboldening Donald Trump in many ways.

(CROSSTALK)

BORGER: -- Trump on this, because it wouldn't be smart. (CROSSTALK)

BURNETT: Right, and the pope actually seems to have --

(CROSSTALK)

BORGER: But the pope would disagree with most Republicans, is what I'm saying.

BURNETT: Climate change and a lot of other things.

(CROSSTALK)

BORGER: Exactly.

BURNETT: Then the other fight going on today is between Marco Rubio and Ted Cruz. And now it seems like a downer. There's no pope involved in this fight, but this is a pretty good one.

PRESTON: He could come in. The day's still early.

(CROSSTALK)

BURNETT: Could come in, weigh in on the Photoshopping issue.

OK. This flyer comes around that Ted Cruz is putting out about Marco Rubio. It's on a Web site funded by the Cruz campaign. And it's basically look at Marco Rubio and Barack Obama. Rubio is working with Obama on a trade deal.

Look at Rubio. He looks so young and eager. And I don't know, something looks a little strange about him, like a little stockier than normal. And so our team Googled handshake on Getty Images where, as you all know, you can buy an image to reflect whatever you want. And one of the first ones that comes up is the image of Barack Obama and Marco Rubio.

All they did was swap the heads.

PRESTON: Strange.

BORGER: Well, I was there this morning at the Rubio rally, was that just this morning, like 9:00, when the Rubio people were pointing this out and said that this was totally Photoshopped, that, in fact, that wasn't even Marco Rubio's watch, the Rubio said, I don't even own a watch that looks like that.

BURNETT: Right. Yes, before they even Googled handshake, they said that's not his suit, it's not his watch.

BORGER: It's not his body is what they said.

And then one of his senior advisers said, you know, this is desperate, this is desperate. And he said this is just another in a pattern of kind of lies and deception by the Cruz campaign. And the Cruz campaign sort of admitted it, didn't they? PRESTON: Sort of admitted it, and what's interesting, in South Carolina -- we talk about dirty tricks in South Carolina

But usually the dirty tricks are hidden. We don't necessarily know who's doing it. We might have an idea. It's all out in the open right now. They put it on their Web site.

(CROSSTALK)

BURNETT: They couldn't hide it.

PRESTON: Paid for Ted Cruz for President.

Listen, it just goes to show like how aggressive this campaign has been with these candidates coming at one another, which means coming into tonight, when you have John Kasich, who's going to lead off this town hall tonight, but then you will have Jeb Bush and then you will have Donald Trump in the hall right after one another.

[15:10:08]

So I can just imagine what Jeb Bush is going to say to, you know, try to protect his family's honor, as he has done over the past couple weeks. And what is Donald Trump going to say at the back end?

BURNETT: And these town halls have been -- they're so different than the debates. They're less contentious in a way that you can get more substance. You can get more personality. And that's one of the great things about them. Luckily, we're going to have more of them?

PRESTON: Well, we hope to, because -- so while we are focusing on tonight -- yes, as we're focusing on tonight, as we all should, we will be back here in the same location on Tuesday night, where we're going to have Bernie Sanders and Hillary Clinton.

(CROSSTALK)

PRESTON: We're going to have another town hall with CNN.

Now, we did it in Iowa and we did it in New Hampshire, to rave reviews. Interestingly enough, both candidates actually liked it. You don't normally have campaigns that are on the same page about this. But just as last night, the candidates were very happy about it, because they can talk about the issues a little bit more, but we will see Bernie Sanders, Hillary Clinton here next Tuesday night at 8:00.

BORGER: If you're in a campaign, the opportunity for your candidate to connect with voters on a very different level, other than these 30- second sound bites, is really important.

And I was texting with a bunch of campaigns last night, who were saying, you know, now voters get to see what we see every day on the stump, what people here in South Carolina or New Hampshire or Iowa get to see. We get to see it. We do. BURNETT: They get to be a part of the town hall that these early states are so lucky.

(CROSSTALK)

PRESTON: Lucky to have.

BORGER: Very lucky.

(CROSSTALK)

BURNETT: -- use the word lucky.

PRESTON: Privileged.

BURNETT: Yes, they are privileged. They may not always feel that way by the end of it. But they are privileged.

Thank you both, all right, Gloria Borger and Mark Preston.

(CROSSTALK)

BURNETT: And, tonight, the brand-new CNN town hall, Donald Trump, Jeb Bush and John Kasich at 8:00 Eastern only here on CNNN -- CNN.

(LAUGHTER)

PRESTON: You're tired.

BURNETT: I'm tired.

All right, next, some African-American voters suggesting racism is at play in the partisan fight to replace Justice Scalia. Is that taking it too far?

Plus, as Trump threatens to sue Ted Cruz and Cruz dares him to go ahead, we're going to talk about Trump's history of legal fights. It's fascinating. Stay here.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:16:06]

HARLOW: Is the United States ready for a woman in the Oval Office? It is not me who is asking that question. It is being asked right now by the only woman still in the race for the White House, Hillary Clinton.

A just-released interview in "Vogue," it's fascinating, it's revealing, and in it Clinton speaks extensively about this, saying -- quote -- "There's nothing overt about it in most instances. People are very convinced they want to vote for the right person and then, you know, you get little hints that maybe they're not as comfortable with a woman being in an executive position, especially in a big rough-and-tumble setting like New York City or the United States, but I think it's changing. I have noticed a big improvement between now and the last time I ran."

Of course, comparing now to 2008.

Taylor, it's interesting. She brings up Christine Quinn, the former speaker for New York City who then ran against de Blasio for mayor. And she said to your reports -- you edited this piece.

TAYLOR ANTRIM, "VOGUE": Right.

HARLOW: She said, how much do you think it was a woman thing? I just think it's fascinating. What surprised you the most about her revelation here, posing this big question that we think she wouldn't ask?

ANTRIM: Right.

I was stuck in particular editing this story with how relaxed and at sort of ease she was with the whole process. She's clearly in a reflective moment and reflecting on the electorate and very happy to talk openly and revealingly with us about it.

Hillary Clinton has this reputation of being very wary of the media, but I have to say this experience --

HARLOW: You didn't feel that?

ANTRIM: Not at all. She was very personal, very calm, very -- she's a formidable candidate.

HARLOW: Sure. I was so excited to get to you, I didn't even introduce you.

(LAUGHTER)

HARLOW: So, for our viewers, this is Taylor Antrim, senior editor of "Vogue." He edits all of the political pieces.

So, building on that, what really stood out to us is that she admitted that she basically doesn't know -- she knows there's a group of people that she will never win over.

ANTRIM: Right.

HARLOW: What was that moment like when you were editing that and talking to a reporter about it? It just seems like a vulnerability most politicians wouldn't put out there.

ANTRIM: Well, she's so realistic, I think. She's been through this before, obviously, many times. And I think her experience and her, you know, candor was really striking to me editing this story.

Jonathan Van Meter is the writer who spent a lot of time with her. It was real sort of a behind-the-scenes look at, you know, a candidate in full flight. I mean, the campaign is a grueling place. And she really -- her spirits were up and her sort of confidence was high. I think that really comes through in the story. HARLOW: It's important to note that most of this interview took place

around Christmastime. So, things have certainly changed. Bernie Sanders has gotten quite a bit of momentum since then.

It does point to all of these. And it describes these moments at the photo shoot, et cetera, where she's very comfortable. She tells the photographer, do whatever you want. I'm fine with that.

ANTRIM: Yes.

HARLOW: That's not the Hillary Clinton I think some people see. And there's a question about, who is she? Is she the Clinton from 2008? Is she the Clinton who we're seeing now? What defines her?

ANTRIM: Well, I think that's the value of a story like this. Right?

Hillary Clinton is somebody that we feel like we know, we have seen in the public eye for years. And yet, when you spend, you know, 5,000 words on her in a profile like this, you see new sides. And you're struck by different aspects of her personality. I was really struck by how calm and at ease she was with Mario Testino, the photographer who did the shoot.

She just says, I'm good, anything you want, you know, and it was that confidence that I think comes through in the story. And, yes, you referenced a time frame, but it's been a really brutal campaign for months now. And her spirits just seem to be up in the story. And she just seems very calm and on top of things.

HARLOW: Biggest surprise?

ANTRIM: Well, I guess the biggest surprise for me was that moment with Mario Testino. You would think that someone as sort of media- savvy as she is would really want to be on top of how she's photographed in "Vogue," but she just wanted to make him to make all the decisions.

HARLOW: I think it's a great thing for all of us, chill out a little bit.

[15:20:00]

Thank you very much. It's a fascinating piece. You're the editor. Obviously, you mentioned the great writer who spent countless days and weeks on this, no question.

ANTRIM: It was a long haul.

HARLOW: Taylor, thank you very much on the latest edition of "Vogue." Nice to have you on.

ANTRIM: Thank you.

HARLOW: Next, Republican leadership in Congress vowing to block any nominee President Obama tries to send to the Supreme Court, but a "New York Times" article points to some African-Americans saying race, race is behind the pushback. We are live in South Carolina with both sides on that debate.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BURNETT: Retired Justice Sandra Day O'Connor is throwing her weight behind President Obama, a very significant move.

[15:25:03]

She says he should name Scalia's replacement on the Supreme Court while he's in office, this as "The New York Times" publishes a scathing piece exploring why there's so much opposition to having Obama make the pick.

Now, you may think it's because Republicans don't want him to pick someone with liberal views, but no, some voters are saying the reason is because he is black. It's a notion Hillary Clinton seems to agree with, saying -- quote -- "Many Republicans talk in coded racial language and speak as if somehow he's not a real president."

Joining me now, Bakari Sellers, CNN commentator, attorney and former member of the South Carolina House of Representatives, as well as Ben Ferguson, our political commentator, and host of "The Ben Ferguson Show."

OK, so, Bakari Sellers, in this article in "The New York Times," you are quoted, and it's a very powerful quote. So, let me read it. You actually likened what's happening now to the three-fifths -- the three-fifths --

BAKARI SELLERS, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Compromise.

BURNETT: Compromise, OK. And the three-fifths compromise is you're three-fifths of a person.

SELLERS: Right.

BURNETT: And your quote was: "I guess many of them are using this in the strictest construction that Barack Obama is serving three-fifths of a term or he is three-fifths of a human being, so he doesn't get to make this choice. It's infuriating."

So, you were linking directly to one of the most horrific things of slavery, which is a black person is not a full person.

SELLERS: Well, I don't think there's any doubt that a lot of blowback the president is getting is because there's an African-American in the White House.

I'm sure Ben will differ with that. And we can get into that as we go. But from the very beginning, Majority Leader Mitch McConnell even came out and said that he didn't want this president to succeed. There are many other roadblocks that he's going through that most presidents, Democrat or Republican, have not gone through.

And here in South Carolina, here in the South, and for all of those people who absolutely appreciate the fact, who cried the night he got elected because here we'd broken that glass ceiling, it's infuriating.

And for a long period of time, the Supreme Court was an issue that riled up the GOP base. But now this is an issue that's going to the heart of the Democratic base. And I'm actually glad we're having this discussion.

BEN FERGUSON, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: I think it's the race card being played in politics, which is a smart move. It is. But when people were going after Bill Clinton and impeaching him, no one claimed it was the race card. And they were actually trying to impeach him. It was politics.

SELLERS: But that's apples and pears.

(CROSSTALK)

FERGUSON: Hold on, but it literally had nothing to do with race.

When people say that they want to delay this, it is very simple. It's the same exact reason why Chuck Schumer and other Democrats said that they wanted a delay when George Bush was doing it. And no one claimed there was racism there. Why? Because George Bush was white, so, therefore, it was just politics.

But now because Barack Obama is African-American, and you want to inspire the African-American voters to get back involved, when they're worried -- and many Democrats are worried that African-Americans are going to stay home because Barack Obama's not on the ballot.

This is no different. It's just now playing the race card to get people riled up of a race.

BURNETT: Do you think, Bakari, though, to be fair, right, the Republicans wouldn't want anybody that a Democrat would pick in the final year, whether that Democrat was white or black?

(CROSSTALK)

SELLERS: That's new, though. But that's a new phenomenon, though.

FERGUSON: No, it's not. We did it with Bill Clinton. We did it with Jimmy Carter.

SELLERS: It's very new, because you have actually had people in their final year, in their final year of office to actually get -- Ronald Reagan, for example, actually get somebody --

FERGUSON: And what did Ted Kennedy say during that time? He didn't like it. And no one said it was because of race, because they were both white.

SELLERS: But they didn't obstruct it.

FERGUSON: They did try to obstruct it.

SELLERS: That's my point. Since Barack Obama has gotten elected, it's been the height of

divisive rhetoric, the height of rancor, and the height of obstructionism. and anyone who says this isn't the most obstructive Congress that there's been is just not truthful.

(CROSSTALK)

FERGUSON: Explain to me why -- and I mean this sincerely -- why it was not the same thing when Chuck Schumer, Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid were all trying to stop George Bush's agenda? No one said it was racial. They said it was political. How is this different now?

(CROSSTALK)

SELLERS: This goes beyond the pale.

FERGUSON: What does that mean?

SELLERS: The language that is used now, the language that is used now, as we're having conversations about the first black president, the language that is used, the rancor that is used, the tone that is used, the rise of Donald Trump, these things are not mutually exclusive.

All these of things combined, all these of things combined speak to a larger narrative.

BURNETT: Bakari, you're not -- let me try and understand exactly what you're saying. You're not saying that Mitch McConnell is doing this over this appointee because Barack Obama is black. You're saying it's part of a larger picture where he is disrespected because he is black.

(CROSSTALK)

SELLERS: It's part of a larger narrative.

FERGUSON: Your quote made it very clear, though, that this is race.

And I go back to the core thing.

SELLERS: It is.

FERGUSON: I think, though -- I think this is really about an agenda, the same way Hillary Clinton played it last week, that if you're a woman, you must support a woman. And this is doing the same thing.

(CROSSTALK)

SELLERS: When did she say that, though?

FERGUSON: When they were on stage, they said literally --

(CROSSTALK)

SELLERS: Madeleine Albright.

(CROSSTALK)

BURNETT: Madeleine Albright said it.

(CROSSTALK)

SELLERS: I thought you said Hillary Clinton said that. OK.

BURNETT: If a woman doesn't support a woman -- and it was pretty obvious her campaign wasn't backing away from that -- there's a special place in hell. It is playing the race card in this situation. It was a sex card last time. And this is very simple.

(CROSSTALK)

SELLERS: I'm not playing a card that is me. That is me. I'm not a card. That is me.

FERGUSON: It is a card.

SELLERS: I am African-American.

And it's infuriating, the fact that we have made so much progress in this country, but still have yet a ways to go. All the president wants to do is the ability to do his job. So, have an up-or-down vote.

(CROSSTALK)

FERGUSON: But you look at George Bush when he was in office. How many people did he try to get on courts that were stalled and delayed by Democrats? And no one claimed it was race. It was politics.

SELLERS: Even Barack Obama, who came out -- even Barack Obama, who came out and said -- he apologized to --

FERGUSON: And did Barack -- right. And that --