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Pope Questions Trumps' Faith; Racism in Scalia Fight. Aired 2- 2:30p ET

Aired February 18, 2016 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[14:00:00] WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Starts right now.

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: All right, top of the hour. I'm Poppy Harlow. This is CNN's special live coverage of a critical moment in the race for the White House. I'm joined by my friend Erin Burnett in Columbia, South Carolina.

Hi, Erin.

ERIN BURNETT, CNN ANCHOR: Hi here, Poppy.

And I am here in Columbia, where it is night two of CNN's Republican town halls. Tonight, John Kasich, Jeb Bush and Donald Trump.

But if you woke up this morning wondering who Trump would fight with today, you probably did not bet on the pope. But on the way home to Rome from his historic trip to Mexico, the catholic leader had some incredibly strong words, frankly surprising many, aimed squarely at the Republican front-runner. So let me play it for you.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

POPE FRANCIS (through translator): Thank God he said I was a politician because Aristotle defined the human person as animal politicus. So at least I'm a human person. As to whether I'm a pawn, well, maybe. I don't know. I'll leave that up to your judgment and that of the people. And then a person who thinks only about building walls, wherever they may be located, and not building bridges, is not a Christian. This is not in the Gospel. As far as what you said about whether I would advise to vote or not vote, I am not going to get involved in that. I say only that that man is not a Christian if he has said things like that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BURNETT: Pretty amazing. He said a person who wants to build walls is not a Christian.

Just moments ago, Donald Trump, the Republican frontrunner, responded.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: If and when the Vatican is attacked by ISIS, which, as everyone knows, is ISIS' ultimate trophy, I can promise you that the pope would have only wished and prayed that Donald Trump would have been president, because - no, it's true, because this would not have happened. ISIS would have been eradicated, unlike what is happening now with our all-talk, no-action politicians.

For a religious leader to question a person's faith is disgraceful. I'm proud to be a Christian and, as president, I will not allow Christianity to be consistently attacked and weakened, unlike what is happening now with our current president. OK. Believe me. No leader - very important, and this has just been given out to the press two seconds ago. No leader, especially a religious leader, should have the right to question another man's religion or faith, especially when they feed all sorts of false information into him. They're using the pope as a pawn and they should be ashamed of themselves. That's the Mexican government. They should be ashamed of themselves for doing so, especially when so many lives are involved and when illegal immigration is so rampant and so dangerous and so bad for the United States. OK. Period. That's it. Period.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BURNETT: All right, well, this is coming just a day after the pope held a cross-border mass. He stood in Mexico and blessed 400 people on the American side of the border, many of them illegal immigrants.

Let me bring in our chief political correspondent Dana Bash.

And, Dana, you're at a Jeb Bush rally where Trump's comments couldn't be ignored, but certainly not the response maybe people might have expected.

DANA BASH, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: That's right. Well, first of all, let me just echo what you were saying coming into this program, which is that when we woke up this morning, if we thought that Donald Trump was going to be fighting with the pope, you know, we would have probably told everybody that they were nuts. But that is exactly what is happening, and because it is so unbelievable, it is immediately overshadowing everything else out here on the campaign trail, even and especially for people like Jeb Bush. It's now an empty room, but he was speaking here. He had a town hall here where I am in Columbia, South Carolina, talking about all of his issues. But as soon as he was done, reporters went to talk to him to ask him about his feelings about what the pope had said on two levels. One of which is the fact that Jeb Bush has been the most outspoken critic of Donald Trump but, two, Jeb Bush is a devout catholic. So listen to what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Mr. Trump -

JEB BUSH (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Let's talk about him being president.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How about Mr. Trump going at it with the pope? As a devout catholic, what do you make of that?

BUSH: I - I think the pope said apparently that he might not be Christian. I think his Christianity is between him and his creator. I don't think we need to discuss that.

And as it relates to his policies relating to ISIS, he's not the right guy to be commander in chief. The Swiss Army Guard is probably taking pretty good care of the pope. So I'm not worried about it.

[14:05:07] UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you think the pope was wrong to question his Christianity?

BUSH: I don't question anybody's Christianity, because I honestly believe that that's a relationship that you have with your creator and it only - it only enables bad behavior when you - when someone from outside our country talks about Donald Trump.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BASH: So you heard him talking about the Swiss Army Guard. That, of course, was a reference to the fact that Donald Trump warned that if ISIS targeted the Vatican ever, that everybody would wish, as you heard Donald Trump say earlier, that there were a President Trump to stop it.

Erin, you mentioned that perhaps it was surprising that Jeb Bush effectively came to Donald Trump's defense there. Perhaps on the issue of a person's faith, that is the one step that is a bridge too far, even for Jeb Bush, who has no - there's no love lost between him and Donald Trump. But even having his own spiritual leader, the pope, question Donald Trump's spirituality, not something that he wants to subscribe to.

BURNETT: All right, Dana Bash, yes, thank you very much. A pretty significant thing for Jeb Bush to say there, to say, no, that's between a person and his or her creator and not for the pope to decide.

Poppy.

HARLOW: It is. And, Erin, let me bring in Father Edwin Beck to weigh in on that, CNN religion commentator, host of the Sunday mass.

When you heard Jeb Bush just there, you were shanking your head. You disagree with him. Why?

REV. EDWARD BECK, CNN RELIGIOUS COMMENTATOR: I do because it's not just about a person and the creator. First of all, maybe it's about a person and Jesus. Christianity is about Jesus. But Christianity is a communitarian religion. It's not an isolationist religion. And so for the pope to say you're not a Christian means, you're not following in the footsteps of Jesus. What Jesus did was welcome the oppressed, healed the sick, extended himself to the poor. If you're not doing those actions, how do you say you're following the one who did?

HARLOW: How surprised are you to hear the pope directly calling out Donald Trump and saying he doesn't sound like a Christian? The pope and American politics.

BECK: I was a little surprised. But what the pope says was, of course I'm a political person. I'm a human being. If I'm speaking about justice, if I'm speaking about equality and human dignity, I'm going to wade into political waters. So if a politician who says to represent the people is talking about banning whole groups of people from entering the United States carte blanche, talking about building walls for people who are oppressed, people who are fleeing political oppression, to not be able to enter a country. This is not what the pope - the pope cannot say that that is acceptable.

HARLOW: Does this sway Catholics? Does it - obviously, you have 1.2 billion Catholics in the world. You have a broad range. But does what the pope said today about Donald Trump sway any catholic voters in your mind or a material - a significant amount of them away from Donald Trump?

BECK: Well, Poppy, remember, the catholic vote is about 20 percent of the electorate.

HARLOW: Right.

BECK: He is alienating Catholics on the right and the left. His very ambiguous views about abortion are alienating Catholics on the right. His views about immigration and climate change are alienating Catholics on the left. He's going against the pope on both of those issues. So I think Catholics have to look at Donald Trump and say, how can we vote for somebody who is alienating - and again, they can make their decision of course, but I think he's having trouble with Catholics because he's both sides of the fence.

HARLOW: Let me just note that in his remarks responding to the pope today, Donald Trump said, quote, "no leader, especially a religious leader, should have the right to question another man's religion or faith." He tweeted on the 12th of this month, "how can Ted Cruz be an evangelical Christian when he lies so much and is so dishonest?"

BECK: Yes. By the way, that's the first time I've seen Donald Trump read his comments. So, obviously, someone helped him with these and it really got to him. Usually he's off the cuff. He read these comments. There's still a lot of regodoshio (ph) and bluster in the comments. But basically I think you have to look at them and say, if the pope is saying, look, you're a bad person, Donald. He's not really saying that. He even said in the comment, the pope, I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt. But if he did say these comments about immigrants and immigration, then he cannot call himself a Christian. It's clear.

HARLOW: All right. Well, we're heading into South Carolina, where the evangelical vote is huge. So we'll be watching.

Thank you so much, Father Beck.

BECK: You're welcome.

HARLOW: Erin, back to you in Columbia.

BURNETT: All right. And joining me now, our political commentator, S.E. Cupp, and Barry Bennett, once the campaign manager for Ben Carson and now one of Trump's advisers.

All right, so this is - this is a pretty amazing thing that happened.

S.E. CUPP, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Amazing.

BURNETT: I think one of the thigs, when you heard Jeb Bush who -

CUPP: Yes.

BURNETT: Who came to Donald Trump's defense and saying don't question a man's faith or his relationship with God. But the look on his face when he's asked the question, sort of, wait, he's fighting with the pope? Like what - what is happening, right?

CUPP: It was our faces, right? I mean, where are we, what year is it?

BURNETT: Yes.

CUPP: But, look, I think Jeb had an opportunity to really slam Trump here and he didn't take it and I think it was the right one. I think most people think that this was not a good look for the pope. You know, questioning someone's faith - which, by the way, Donald Trump has himself done. He's done that to Ted Cruz. He's done that to Ben Carson.

[14:10:06] BURNETT: Right.

CUPP: Not a good look for the pope. And, frankly, I think this is all win for Donald Trump. I mean we're here in South Carolina. In the - of the states that are the most Catholic, it is 49th on the list. There are just not a lot of Catholics here. It's largely evangelical. I don't think this hurts him in a state like South Carolina. And, you know, writ large, Republicans have a deep distrust of the pope. So I think this is a big win for Donald Trump.

BARRY BENNETT, FORMER CAMPAIGN MANAGER FOR DR. BEN CARSON: Yes, I think, first of all, there's no more oxygen left in South Carolina, all right. This is all we're going to talk about between now and Saturday, which is a big win for Donald Trump.

BURNETT: I mean it is - let's just take a step back here. I mean it is stunning.

BENNETT: Yes.

CUPP: Remarkable.

BURNETT: In that the pope, who has, you know, crowds and crowds of people coming to touch him because he is -

CUPP: Right.

BURNETT: So sacred and in so many ways to wade into Donald Trump running for president.

CUPP: And so casually on the plane responding to a question and it felt -

BURNETT: Right.

BENNETT: Yes. I bet the Vatican lost his bag pretty fast.

CUPP: Me too.

BENNETT: I mean, they'll fix this. Or they'll try.

BURNETT: And it's - Barry, the will - is this something that could help him in South Carolina? I mean S.E. raises the point, evangelicals, a significant part of the vote here, Catholics not.

BENNETT: Yes.

BURNETT: And Catholics and evangelicals, first of all, everyone's an individual and faith may or may not be relevant.

CUPP: Sure.

BENNETT: Right. Right.

BURNETT: I mean we all know, you know.

BENNETT: Right.

BURNETT: But - but, still, they are not the same.

BENNETT: Right.

BURNETT: Not anything close to it.

BENNETT: No, but, I mean, there is the same grading, right, everyone is a different flavor of catholic and everyone's a different flavor of evangelical. To the - to people that, you know, go to church four or five times a week, or my old boss, go to mass every day, the holy father's views mean a lot to our - to the guy that goes on Sunday when it's convenient, it means less. So they're not monolithic. Catholics aren't monolithic. Evangelicals are not monolithic.

BURNETT: S.E., what do you think about the fact - Father Beck raised it - that Donald Trump read his statement?

CUPP: Yes.

BURNETT: It was a thing that he had put out, but he read from it.

CUPP: Yes.

BURNETT: I mean he - he sort of - it seemed to me, I don't know, but it seemed he didn't - usually he just puts a statement out, then says whatever he wants.

CUPP: Wings it. Right.

BURNETT: He didn't want to wing it on the pope. CUPP: Yes. When he was going to announce his presidency, I got a copy

of the address he was supposed to give. It looked nothing like that. And, you're right, he usually goes out and he's very sort of spontaneous. I think he read this because he - he really does understand the momentous, you know, events that just happened today. When the pope calls you out, he wanted to get it right. He wanted to say exactly what was in his mind. What was on the paper and seize this moment. I think - I mean just check Twitter if you - today if you want to know how some evangelicals and some Republicans feel about the pope. There's a lot of distrust, I would even say some disdain. A lot of people I think are rallying to Trump and he knows that.

BENNETT: I mean this is like an 80 percent issue in the Republican primary, right? Everybody wants to secure the border.

CUPP: Right.

BENNETT: And now - now because we believe that we're all not Christian, it's not going to sit very well. He's going to win this issue.

BURNETT: All right. Thank you both very much.

CUPP: Sure.

BURNETT: And Barry and S.E. are going to stick around. They're going to be with me. By the way, an absolutely lovely day here in Columbia.

CUPP: It's gorgeous.

BURNETT: It was nice and green. Feels a little chillier (INAUDIBLE) here.

CUPP: Yes.

BURNETT: Tonight here in Columbia, a brand new CNN town hall. Donald Trump will be taking questions directly from the voters here in South Carolina. Jeb Bush and John Kasich also on stage in tonight's Republican town hall, only on CNN at 8:00 p.m. Eastern tonight. Let me say that again, only here on CNN.

OK, another strange twist on the campaign trail, coming up today, over a picture, a picture. This one on a website backed by Ted Cruz. So this is ostensibly President Obama and Marco Rubio apparently shaking hands. The problem is, the problem is this just doesn't add up. And, you know, you might laugh, you might cry when you hear why. Next, the Photoshop controversy erupting.

Plus, America may not be ready for a female president, so says Hillary Clinton, the only woman running for president. Now, Hillary Clinton's candid admission ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:17:46] BURNETT: Welcome back. I'm Erin Burnett, here in Columbia, South Carolina. Here in this city tonight, CNN will give voters a rare and unique chance to see the candidates in a different way. Not shouting at each other, but speak at length individually to voters during a town hall moderated by Anderson Cooper. It will be a stark contrast to what has already become another day of potshots and low blows.

One day after frontrunner Donald Trump set Senator Ted Cruz a cease and desist letter over a political ad, Cruz is accused of another dirty trick. OK, so let me just show you this one. It's over this picture. It's featured on the website therealrubiorecord.com, which we understood is funded by the Cruz campaign. Cruz's camp does not deny the picture of his rival, Senator Marco Rubio, is Photoshopped, OK. This is not a real picture. Photoshop. But it gets better. The image used to criticize Rubio for backing a bill on trade that Cruz voted against. So they're trying to basically, you know, imply that there he and Obama are shaking hands.

OK, so on the left, take a look at the stock photo from Getty Images. We just went in and we typed a simple online search for "handshake." Brooke's staff just went in and typed "handshake" and that's what came up. So - so as you can see, the men's stances, the creases in their jackets, all of them are exactly the same as what you see on the right. It looks like there was just some head swapping that went on. They put Marco Rubio and Barack Obama's heads on. We'll see.

Anyway, Rubio (INAUDIBLE) just says this is all part of the, quote, "culture of dishonesty" that's top to bottom in the Cruz campaign.

Back with me now, our political commentator S.E. Cupp and Barry Bennett, as I said, once campaign manager for Ben Carson and now supporting Donald Trump.

OK, so it's silly season.

CUPP: Yes.

BURNETT: But when everyone's yelling at you for being dishonest, and by everyone I mean very loudly from Marco Rubio and from Donald Trump, S.E., it's not good when something like this happens.

CUPP: It's not. It's a little sleazy and now it's sort of one of a few examples. But I got to be honest, I mean, this is nothing. I mean, you remember back to 2008 when the Hillary campaign was accused of calling Obama a Muslim to voters. I think this current Hillary Clinton -

BURNETT: Interesting.

CUPP: Campaign, where she's smearing Bernie Sanders as sexist and lying about his record, I think that's much worse than these sort of, you know, I mean this is like college kind of pranks, right?

[14:20:05] BURNETT: It seems - and, Barry it seems like I mean this is something probably some junior staffer went, obviously Googled Getty Images, pulled up the images, did the head swap. I mean we all laugh, but that's pretty much got to be what happened here, right?

BENNETT: It's a great example of how 22-year-olds can get you in a lot of trouble in a campaign.

BURNETT: Yes. I mean what do you make about the timing of it though? I mean this is something, you know, we all talk about it and laugh about it but -

BENNETT: Well, it's horrible timing. Horrible timing. And it - you know, had Rubio done this to Cruz, it probably would be less effective, less hubbub than the other way around because, you know, Cruz does hold himself out to an audience that doesn't like dirty tricks. So every time they do one, he's kind of hurting himself, shooting himself in the foot.

BURNETT: S.E., does it, though, hurt Marco Rubio? I mean does it matter that it's fake in some sense because people see the image and they say, oh, wait a minute, that's right, they're trying to say he worked with him on a trade bill or he worked on the gang of eight.

CUPP: No. No. No.

BURNETT: Like do people have this image of them connected?

CUPP: No, I don't think that resonates. You know how you, you know, you watch an annoying commercial and you don't even know what it's for, you just remember the hook or the jingle. I think you're going to remember the Photoshop aspect of it and not really connect it to a trade deal or anything like that. I don't think there's a Republican in the country who would align Marco Rubio and President Obama together on anything. So, no.

BURNETT: You don't think - Barry, would they though? I mean because again we get back to immigration.

BENNETT: I think it hurts Obama more than it hurts - than it hurts Rubio, you know?

BURNETT: Oh, really?

BENNETT: I think it's like - it's a - it was laughable when I first saw it before I knew it was Photoshopped and like - that's weird, why are they shaking with the left hand? This was all set up for a picture but it's not at the White House. Yes, it was fake.

CUPP: Yes.

BURNETT: You saw something was wrong with it.

All right. Well, thank you both very much. I mean it's amazing, Poppy, though, it really is silly season. And these little things, right, they can mean nothing, they can mean something, you just don't know.

HARLOW: Absolutely. It keeps us all employed, Erin, and it keeps everyone on their toes, that's for sure. Erin Burnett in Columbia, where we have that town hall tonight at 8:00 p.m. Erin, thank you. Back to you in a moment.

Next, some African-American voters suggesting racism is at the heart of this, the fight over appointing the next Supreme Court justice. Who will replace Scalia? We'll talk about that next.

Also, more on our breaking news, Donald Trump respond to the pope after the pope suggests the front-runner is not a Christian. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:26:45] HARLOW: The battle over who selects the next Supreme Court justice is now crossing the color lines. A fascinating report this morning in "The New York Times" titled, "The Black Seat Bias in Delay on a Scalia Successor." Well, it notes that some of the African- Americans, especially in South Carolina, that the writer spoke with, say that they believe that these attacks are directly against President Obama and are racially motivated. This after Republican leaders in Congress vowed not to even consider the president's nominee, whomever it is, to fill Scalia's seat.

I want to talk about this, delve into it with political strategist, former executive director of the Congressional Black Caucus, Angela Rye. Also with me, CNN conservative political commentator, host of "The Ben Ferguson Show," Ben Ferguson.

Thank you both for being here.

Angela, let me begin with you. I just want to read you some of the - some of the quotes that stood out to me from this article. OK, one resident in South Carolina, African-American, told "The Times," they've been fighting that man since he's been there. Another said that President Obama, quote, "has been disrespected from day one. It's because of his skin color." So that's one argument. The other side of the argument, Angela, is, this has happened to presidents forever regardless of their skin color. This is politics, not race. What do you say?

ANGELA RYE, FORMER EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, CONGRESSIONAL BLACK CAUCUS: Well, this is what I would say to you. I would use some of the language that was used when the president ran in 2008. The language that was used is that he was a Kenyan, he was a Muslim, he was a socialist. All of these things about who he is and what he represents, none of that being true. Of course he's half Kenyan, but he's an American citizen. He had to prove through birther efforts led by, of course, now presidential candidate Donald Trump. He was told you lie by a United States House of Representatives member Joe Wilson. He has been repeatedly disrespected and it's hard not to call this a racially motivated - or these attacks racially motivated, these challenges racially motivated, when we even have something like the rise of this Tea Party in 2010 when folks got frustrated and tired of President Obama trying to move an agenda that was not popular to them. It's hard not to see that race isn't (INAUDIBLE).

HARLOW: Angela, let's - let's talk specifically - I hear you. I want to talk specifically about this, whomever this nominee is.

BEN FERGUSON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes.

HARLOW: Because if you'll remember, look, yes, you have Republican leadership saying we're not even going to hear it. We don't even think he should nominate someone. But back in 2006, it was then Senator Obama who supported the filibuster of a Supreme Court justice nominee Samuel Alito, Angela.

FERGUSON: Absolutely.

HARLOW: So just your - your take on that. Was he doing the same thing?

RYE: No, I don't think it was the same thing and I think that you cannot isolate this one incident and say that this one time it's not racially motivated when there's been racial tensions throughout his presidency. I think that is what these folks that were -

FERGUSON: Angela -

RYE: I'm just finishing my sentence, Ben, that's what these folks in South Carolina are saying in this piece, you cannot isolate this one incident.

HARLOW: OK, Ben.

FERGUSON: Well, here's what - here's what I would say, welcome, first of all, to politics. I mean to act as if this is somehow just rationally motivated. Chuck Schumer wanted to -

RYE: I'm not new to politics. I had a decade of experience in politics.

FERGUSON: Let me finish. Let me finish. I - let me finish. Let me finish. Let me finish.

RYE: Well, then don't say that to me.

FERGUSON: What I'm saying is, welcome -

RYE: Then don't say that to me.

FERGUSON: I can say - I can say welcome to politics. I just said it.

RYE: You're not saying it to me.

FERGUSON: And my point is this. When Chuck Schumer came out - when Chuck Schumer came out and wanted to filibuster, you weren't screaming racism because it was your side that was saying it. You also have Ted Cruz, you want to talk about birther with him -

[14:30:01] RYE: You don't know - I wasn't - you don't know what I said. Maybe you don't know me clearly because you think I'm new to politics.

FERGUSON: Let - OK - let - let - let - OK, let me finish what I was going to say. When you had people that talked about birther with Ted Cruz -

RYE: Then say facts.

FERGUSON: No one played the race card, right?