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Interview With North Carolina Congressman Robert Pittenger; Toxic Water; American Prisoners Released; Trump at Liberty University. Aired 3-3:30p ET

Aired January 18, 2016 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[15:00:03]

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: Donald Trump today delivering a speech at Virginia's Liberty University, the Christian university that has become a popular and significant campaign stop for Republican contenders, Trump talking tough about how he would take on terrorists, also clearly trying to reach out to the religious right, but stumbled a bit when he quoted a passage from 2nd Corinthians.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: One of the generals just recently, well, what do you think of the ISIS threat? And, oh, they are very tough. They're very -- can we beat them? Well, it's going to take a long time.

I don't want that kind of a general. I want a general who will knock the hell out of them fast.

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)

TRUMP: We're going to protect Christianity. And I can say that. I don't have to be politically correct or -- 2 Corinthians, right, 2 Corinthians, 3:17, that's the whole ball game.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Both Trump and his rival in the polls, Senator Ted Cruz, now have turned their focus as well to New Hampshire. Trump expected at a rally in that state later this hour.

And that's where we find Dana Bash.

Dana, set the stage for me and also talk a little bit about this strategy here in taking on the conservative darling in Ted Cruz and how that may hurt or maybe, maybe help either of these two.

DANA BASH, CNN SENIOR CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, it's interesting, because you said it perfectly, that he's taking on conservative darling Ted Cruz.

We have seen at least one conservative radio show host, Mark Levin, come out and say, hold on a minute, Mr. Trump. Ted Cruz isn't like the others who you have gone after, whether it's Jeb Bush or Lindsey Graham. Those people are already in some circles in the conservative movement not seen as kind of a purist. But Ted Cruz is.

And so this is more dicey situation for Donald Trump. I should tell you, though, that you played what Donald Trump said this morning in Liberty University. It's a very, very different kind of Republican electorate, where he's about to speak here in New Hampshire. You don't have that kind of evangelical base that you have, let's say, in Iowa, the first place where they are going to vote.

But despite the fact that he stumbled a bit, he doesn't have fluency and biblical verses like Ted Cruz, for example, we just looked it up. Nationally, 45 percent of his support comes from evangelical people, self-described evangelicals. So it far hasn't hurt him, and it's not like those voters think that he is kind of a Bible-thumping guy. They know he's a twice-divorced, brash billionaire from New York.

And, again, at least at this point, it seems to be one of the latest examples how he has defied presidential Republican convention, if you will, political convention.

BALDWIN: And, again, just quickly, I know you know this. You have had your calendar marked probably for a year. We're two weeks away from Iowa. Do you sense that final stretch for these contenders?

(CROSSTALK)

BASH: No question. And that's what the Cruz-Trump sort of escalating war or words is all about. It's all about Iowa. It's all about those caucuses two weeks away, and the fact that Donald Trump is doing quite well here in New Hampshire, but Iowa is a place where he's neck and neck with Ted Cruz.

Ted Cruz, his campaign still insists he has a stellar ground game, that they have got an amazing organization and they think that they can turn people out to the caucuses. And so now it is all about for each of them trying to sort of poke holes in their support. You heard Ted Cruz saying about Donald Trump today that he's not a real conservative, kind of what we heard from Jeb Bush in the past.

And then of course Trump is trying to paint Cruz as a maniac again. So, that's what this is all about. It's all trying to take the other one down. Unclear if in the state of Iowa that's really going to work, because people there -- there's a term Iowa nice. And it's real. So, unclear how far each of these are going to go.

BALDWIN: Dana Bash, thank you very much in Concord, New Hampshire.

Let's stay on this and let me bring in CNN political commentator Van Jones and Ken Cuccinelli, president of the Senate Conservatives Fund and the former attorney general of Virginia.

Nice to see both of you, gentlemen.

Ken, let me just begin with you. Listen, I know Ted Cruz is your guy. Obviously, you're going to agree with the Mark Levins of the world saying don't met with Ted Cruz, Mr. Trump. Don't even try.

But, listen, when you look at history, nothing seems to ding Donald Trump. Why would this?

KENNETH CUCCINELLI (R), FORMER VIRGINIA ATTORNEY GENERAL: Well, Mark Levin's approach I think has been one where he's praised Donald Trump over time, and a lot of us have for how he came out at times and took on the establishment.

[15:05:00]

But then, when Ted Cruz passes him in one poll in Iowa last month, the very first time on December 7, he turns and attacks him on two things. And one of them is that Ted doesn't get along with the establishment. Where does that come from? The other thing that he attacked him on was not opposing these ethanol subsidies for big corn.

And a lot of us think, well, if you're not going to go to Iowa and take on their special interests, why do we expect you're going to come to Washington and do that? So he raised some questions, Donald Trump did, with that kind of an attack on Ted Cruz.

BALDWIN: Van, I want to ask you obviously about the Dems in your party in a minute. But you want to touch this, thoughts, ruminations?

VAN JONES, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes.

Well, first of all, 2 Corinthians, 2 Corinthians?

BALDWIN: Yes.

(CROSSTALK)

JONES: This guy has never been to church.

CUCCINELLI: Hey, if one Corinthian is good, two Corinthians is twice as good.

(LAUGHTER)

JONES: Listen, if you don't -- if you can't look at a Bible verse and know to say 2nd Corinthians, that means pretty much your shtick is gone. And don't forget now, people have attacked, they said President Obama is not -- he's a Muslim and an atheist. I don't know how you can be a Muslim and an atheist, because Muslims pray five times a day.

But they have attacked President Obama. I guarantee you President Obama knows the difference between 2nd Corinthians and two Corinthians walking down the street.

BALDWIN: I have a feeling Donald Trump does by now as well.

Van, let me ask you about the Democrats, last night debate. This is really the big sort of debate before Iowa. And they were pretty feisty. Take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HILLARY RODHAM CLINTON (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Now, there are things we can do to improve it, but to tear it up and start over again, pushing our country back into that kind of a contentious debate, I think is the wrong direction.

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (VT-I), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We're not going to tear up the Affordable Care Act. I helped write it. But we are going to move on top of that to a Medicaid-for-all system.

CLINTON: I'm going to defend Dodd- Frank and I'm going to defend President Obama for taking on Wall Street, taking on the financial industry and getting results.

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)

SANDERS: Secretary Clinton -- and you're not the only one, so I don't mean to just point the finger at you -- you've received over $600,000 in speaking fees from Goldman Sachs in one year.

I think Secretary Clinton knows that what she says is very disingenuous. I have a D-minus voting record from the NRA.

CLINTON: I have made it clear based on Senator Sanders' own record that he has voted with the NRA, with the gun lobby numerous times.

SANDERS: Yes, his behavior was deplorable. Have I ever once said a word about that issue? No, I have not. I'm going to debate Secretary Clinton, Governor O'Malley, on the issues facing the American people, not Bill Clinton's personal behavior.

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: What do you think, Van? How did they do?

JONES: Well, look, first of all, I can't understand for the life of me why the DNC decided to hide these debates under rocks on a Sunday night on a three-day weekend.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: Over and over.

JONES: Over and over. It doesn't make any sense at all. Whoever came up with that plan needs to go to the woodshed, because that was a great debate last night.

Plus, we saw the debut of a brand-new candidate no one has ever seen before, Hillary Rodham Obama. I have never seen Hillary Clinton...

(CROSSTALK)

JONES: ... Obama. Every turn, because what you saw was, you saw Bernie Sanders, who is much closer to the party base on questions like health care.

The base wants universal health care. The base is mad at Wall Street. So, every time he tries to hit her, she goes and grabs President Obama and says, I love President Obama's Wall Street plan. I love his health care plan.

And he was flummoxed. For the first time, you saw a Bernie Sanders not really able to deal with it. And that pro-Barack Obama, African- American, South Carolina audience was eating it up. Hillary Clinton outfoxed him. It was an amazing thing.

(CROSSTALK)

CUCCINELLI: That was not for Iowa and New Hampshire. That was for South Carolina and beyond.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: Listen, you look at the poll numbers, South Carolina has to be top of mind for camp Clinton.

CUCCINELLI: Sure. Yes.

JONES: Because that's her firewall. Don't forget now, she's likely to lose New Hampshire. She may lose Iowa.

South Carolina, that's her firewall. And she knows she's got -- if she loses there, it's very bad news for her. So, she was playing to that South Carolina crowd. And you didn't see a Bernie Sanders coming back and saying, hold on a second, the banks have done this bad for African-Americans. Here's my African-American argument on health care.

He didn't know what to do. And she outfoxed him last night.

BALDWIN: I think he definitely held his own. I don't think it was like race-defining, per se, but I do think it's interesting, to borrow a phrase from a colleague, that definitely Hillary Clinton bear-hugged Obama all night long.

I think, Ken, to you, I'm curious not on how you feel about the Democrats necessarily, but when you look overall at how either far- left candidates or far-right candidates have been doing thus far, it's those folks who have really sort of perhaps surprisingly resonated.

CUCCINELLI: Well, look, from the discussion we have had so far, you would think Hillary Clinton won the debate last night. She didn't.

Bernie came out on top of her. And debates aren't about those two hours. They're about how they fit into the rest of the campaign. And Bernie Sanders continued the trend lines that he brought into that debate.

[15:10:05]

He's in good shape. And she came out looking a bit like, while she did use the president as a useful shield in their nomination contest, she looked a lot more like the defender of the status quo and he looked a lot more like the change agent that's channeling a lot of the frustration with Washington that's happening on both sides of the aisle than Hillary Clinton did. And I think that the momentum that came in will go back out that way.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: Go ahead, Van.

JONES: I never thought in my life I would agree with Ken Cuccinelli on anything. But I actually agree with you on this one, sir.

Listen, this Sanders surge is a real thing. There's a big, big hunger in this party for bold ideas and bold thinking. I think Sanders has done a brilliant job of tapping into that, which means that with her being on the defensive and seeing those trend lines, she had to do something.

And what I thought was, she pulled out of her hat becoming Hillary Rodham Obama that night. It was a brilliant move for her. But Sanders is on the rise, and I think deservedly so. He's bringing bold thinking forward.

CUCCINELLI: She looked like an underdog.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: Listen , I was in London over the weekend and I had people I was having lunch with saying, tell me more about Bernie Sanders. There you go.

Van Jones and Ken Cuccinelli, thank you both very much.

Still ahead here, an American pastor, one of three Americans who have arrived in Germany after being released from custody in Iran. The congressman who spent two years working for his release joins me live from Germany with an update for us.

Also ahead, more National Guard troops deployed to Flint, Michigan, today to help tens of thousands of people affected by this toxic water. Someone who was tested for lead in the water there will talk to me live about his concerns of a cover-up. You're watching CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:16:09]

BALDWIN: You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin. Thank you for being with me.

What a story here. Three Americans accused of espionage and held in an Iranian prison for more than 500 days are free and homebound after a dizzying run of diplomacy between Iran and the United States.

Three of the five Americans released include a "Washington Post" reporter, a former Marine, and a pastor now in Germany getting medical tests, seeing family for the first time. This deal comes after more than a year after secret negotiations and

the timing is pretty fascinating. Labeled by the U.S. as simply coincidental, all of this happened at the very same time the U.S. orchestrated the final hurdle to curb Iran's nuclear program and lift crippling sanctions.

The wife of one of the Americans, the pastor Saeed Abedini, describing the moment she found out her husband was free.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NAGHMEH ABEDINI, WIFE OF SAEED ABEDINI: It was just such an amazing moment of running to them as I hung up on the call with -- and I just ran and said daddy is coming home. He is free.

It was 7:30 in the morning on a weekend and usually they are just like, leave us alone. And they jumped up. They were jumping, dancing. It was -- I can't -- I wish I could have recorded it. But I didn't. But it was an amazing moment.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Let's take you straight to that U.S. base in Germany where these Americans are being treated.

I have Congressman Robert Pittenger here, who has worked for more than two years to free the pastor from that Iranian prison.

Nice to see you, sir. You were part of this welcoming delegation. How is he?

REP. ROBERT PITTENGER (R), NORTH CAROLINA: Well, he's undergoing treatment right now and reviewed by the doctors for his physical and mental conditions.

It's been a long journey to get him here, Brooke, but it's going to be a long journey hereafter, the torture, torment that he's been through the last three-and-a-half years by the Iranians in isolation all that time, and I think we need to realize this has played a big toll on his emotional capacity.

Whatever time is needed, he will be here and then he will have ongoing assistance from this point on.

BALDWIN: You say isolation all this time. How was he treated for all of those many months?

PITTENGER: Well, we lost contact with him over the last year because the Iranians made his family leave the country.

But he had been put in isolation and had had very brutal treatment, according to the family members, a lot of personal mental torture. And that takes a toll on somebody day in and day out. And the assimilation process of him coming back to his family is what's important. Naghmeh will be flying here tomorrow and she will be with her husband

and they will have a chance to begin their relationship all over again. But when you want to give love and you're hurting inside, it's hard to do.

And both of them really love each other and love their families and will continue to go on. But it's going to take some healing time. And I know that their community will be in full support of it.

BALDWIN: Congressman Pittenger, you know as well as I do some of your fellow Republicans in Congress, though, they are highly critical of this prisoner swap.

And we now know that for four Americans held on what the U.S. called trumped-up espionage charges, the Department of Justice telling 21 Iranians were cleared of charges and released. Was this a fair deal, your opinion?

PITTENGER: Well, at the end of the day, I'm glad they are home. Yes, I feel like I could have negotiated something different or better.

Oftentimes, the last two years, I wish we could trade negotiators. They have done a spectacular job of getting everything they wanted all the time. So, seven of their folks are going home, and they were people who had criminal backgrounds, to the effect of breaking the sanctions and possibly involved in terrorism financing.

[15:20:12]

Our folks were not criminals. They were patriotic people there to do the right thing. So, at the end of the day, they are home. There will be a day we can discuss that in greater detail and some of the other concerns of the outcomes of this agreement.

There are no coincidences in politics. These things happen and they are strategic. The fact that Iran received $100 billion and had the sanctions cleared certainly was a motivation for them to release these three individuals.

BALDWIN: We will continue this conversations, as they are important here, especially as folks are out and about on the trail talking about this as well.

But, for now, obviously, our best to the Americans who are now safe.

Congressman Pittenger, thank you, sir, for your time live in Germany for us.

PITTENGER: Good to be with you, Brooke.

BALDWIN: Thank you.

Coming up next here, people in Flint, Michigan, expected to file not just one, two new lawsuits against a state and city officials over lead levels that have made the water unsafe to drink. We will talk live to a researcher who sounded the alarm about the toxic water months ago and the evidence he uncovered that suggests a cover-up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:25:32]

BALDWIN: More signs of disarray in Flint, Michigan, over its toxic water crisis.

President Obama has now officially declared a federal state of emergency. Attorneys for folks living Flint now say they are set to announce two more class-action lawsuits against the Michigan governor, Rick Snyder, and others. Just over this weekend protesters, including the Reverend Jesse Jackson and filmmaker Michael Moore, demanded justice for the entire Flint community.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHAEL MOORE, DOCUMENTARY FILMMAKER: This is not a natural disaster. This is not a mistake. They hid this from the federal government. And in doing so, they knew that the people here did not have the political power to do anything about it.

REV. JESSE JACKSON, FOUNDER, RAINBOW/PUSH COALITION: The people of Flint have been betrayed. They assumed they could drink the water, bathe in the water, wash in the water and have clean air. And they some -- it seems to be a manmade disaster. It was a manmade disaster. There are legal and political consequences to that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Joining me now is Virginia Tech professor Marc Edwards.

Professor, welcome.

MARC EDWARDS, VIRGINIA TECH: Thank you for having me.

BALDWIN: All right, so you were the lead researcher of this group, conducted a bunch of tests on Flint's water. You were first to publicly identify these high levels of lead in the water.

In the very beginning, how did you know -- or what tipped you off?

EDWARDS: A mother in Flint, Michigan, actually figured out her child had been lead-poisoned from the water.

And she had reached out to an EPA employee, Mr. Miguel Del Toral, who came to her house and inspected it and determined that Flint was not following corrosion control laws.

So, we started working with this mother in particular and other Flint residents to test the safety of their water. And Miguel wrote it up in a memo that Flint was not following federal law in June. And it's now become clear from our Freedom of Information Act requests that EPA knew about this in April.

And the regional administrator, a political appointee, decided to remain silent about this. So, this truly represents a betrayal of the public trust, not only by the state Department of Environmental Quality, first and foremost, but also by a political appointee of the United States Environmental Protection Agency.

BALDWIN: That, to me, seems to be the heart of it, other than of course these children, the children in Flint. But you had said, in essence, the state took an F-grade for Flint's water report on lead and made it into an A-minus grade. The allegations are saving money and then covering up. How far do you think they went?

EDWARDS: Well, obviously, way too far.

From the time this EPA whistle-blower wrote his memo, they should have acted decisively to protect Flint's children. Even then, it would have been a tragedy. But what happened after that is just beyond belief. The fact that EPA decided to cover this problem up and stand silently as the state claimed that the water was safe to drink, it's really traumatized the Flint population here, because they now realize that their worst fears about the water have been proven true, that they were being told the water was safe even as the federal government and the state government knew it wasn't.

And had it not been for people completely outside the system, none of this would have been exposed. Those children in Flint would have still been drinking the water to the present day.

BALDWIN: Professor Edwards, help me understand what happens to a child. What happens to a child when they drink this kind of water? What kinds of effects? How damaging to one's little body?

EDWARDS: Well, lead adversely affects every system in the human body. The damage that it does is irreversible.

So it truly is a tragedy. That's why we pay people to make sure something like Flint never, ever happens. And it's the very career employees who we're paying to do this that failed not only to follow federal law in the first place, but then covered it up, and, even more outrageously, were telling people the water was safe all that time.

So, it really defies belief. And what you're seeing playing out right now in the Flint population is a complete loss of confidence in government --