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ISIS Setback?; Chicago Police Shooting; No Charges in Tamir Rice Case. Aired 3-3:30p ET

Aired December 28, 2015 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[15:00:00] DAVID RAMADAN (R), VIRGINIA STATE ASSEMBLY: We're not going out to sue anybody here. We're asking somebody to say that, yes, I'm a Republican and I -- that's why I want to vote in this Republican process.

This is common sense. This is nothing crazy here and nothing that has not been done before. Look, fact is, Mr. Trump doesn't like it because he wants Democrats to come vote for him. Fact is, Mr. Trump gave money to the current Democrat governor of this commonwealth.

So, what's the payback? Is he expecting Terry McAuliffe to round up all the Democrats to come and vote for Trump in March? No, that's why we want everybody to sign, just simply say that they are affiliated with this party. I would love to have them all as part of this party.

Join us.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: OK. Join us, he says.

Virginia State Delegate David Ramadan, thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate it.

RAMADAN: Thank you.

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

BALDWIN: All right, we continue on hour two. You're watching CNN here. I'm Brooke Baldwin. Great to be with you on this Monday.

Breaking news, it is. Moments ago, a prosecutor in Cuyahoga County in Ohio, Cleveland area, announce there will be no criminal charges against the two police officers who shot and killed 12-year-old Tamir Rice.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TIM MCGINTY, CUYAHOGA COUNTY, OHIO, PROSECUTOR: A short time ago, we informed Tamir's mother of the grand jury's decision. It was a tough conversation. We explained to her that this was a difficult decision also, but that to charge police even a situation what was as undeniably tragic as the death of her son, the state must be able to show that the officers acted outside the constitutional boundaries set forth by the Supreme Court of these United States.

(END VIDEO CLIP) BALDWIN: The shooting happened November 22, 2014. The surveillance video shows that one of these police officers -- it was officer Tim Loehmann -- shot Tamir Rice two seconds after getting out of his patrol car in that rec park there in that year.

Evidence given to the grand jury showed that the arriving officers on scene did not know that Rice was 12 years of age and didn't know that the gun he was holding was a fake, was a pellet gun. The prosecutor faulted the dispatcher for not relaying those two very crucial details to those officers responding. Officer Loehmann told investigators he thought he saw Rice pulling a gun from his waistband when he fired.

So, a lot to go through.

I have CNN's Jean Casarez with me, CNN legal analysts both Joey Jackson and Philip Holloway, and Areva Martin, a civil rights attorney. Also, CNN political commentator and "New York Times" columnist Charles Blow is with me by phone.

So, Joey Jackson, let me just turn to you first.

Just legally speaking, we know this grand jury -- again, this happened in November of 2014.

JOEY JACKSON, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: That's right.

BALDWIN: The grand jury just started getting together and parsing this through in October of this year. They just came to this conclusion December 22, so days ago.

What did they have to work through to arrive with a nonindictment?

JACKSON: What happens is, is that you impanel a grand jury. And in this jurisdiction, there's 14, in addition to the foreperson. That's 15. You have to get 12 of them to make the following conclusions, not guilt or innocence, Brooke, but just is there reasonable cause to believe that a crime was committed, A, and that did any one of these officers commit that?

Apparently, they decided against that. The troubling thing, however, I think, for the community is that grand jury processes are historically and inherently secretive. There are good reasons for that in terms of witness intimidation, et cetera, et cetera.

But I think the problem is it calls into question how the whole issue was handled. Should this local prosecutor have been presenting it? Because anyone who obviously does this understands that in the grand jury, the prosecutor criminals everything, the flow of information, what the grand jury hears.

That's not to suggest that the grand jury does not have independent investigatory power. However, if you're the guide of that grand jury, if you're flowing information to that grand jury, they largely do, I can tell you as a former prosecutor, what you ask them to do. And that's why there's a grave concern over how this was handled. I know Jean Casarez was referencing what happened earlier, which was a

community came together to get an arrest warrant against these actual officers based upon probable cause. That's a big issue too.

BALDWIN: Let's talk about that.

JEAN CASAREZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Right. A municipal judge actually issued an advisory opinion because there was no legal significance to it at that point, saying that the officers should be charged with murder, involuntary manslaughter, misconduct in office and went on and on.

Brooke, we're learning some more facts right now in regard to this enhanced video that the grand jury apparently saw.

(CROSSTALK)

CASAREZ: I just looked at it myself, and they are going in section, almost frame by frame. First of all, it shows that a lot of children were at that recreational center outside at the time the officers pulled up.

That forms their state of mind. Then it talks about the original dispatch call said that the officer was going to be -- that Tamir Rice was going to be at the swing set, but when they pulled up, they saw he was at a table under the gazebo.

[15:05:00]

And then you see the video and it very plainly shows he stands up and puts an object into the waistband. He appears to go in the opposite direction, but then changes direction toward the officers and the cruiser is still moving at that point.

It then shows the right hand of Tamir Rice in front of the body. Right arm moves to the waist and you see his jacket moving up with this enhanced video. They say the officer fired two times. One shot hit Tamir Rice 4.5 to nine feet away. Also says we hear the 911 call, the dispatch call from the officers saying it's a black male, probably 20, a black revolver is in his hand.

And this is what they say is a key to it. The gun was found on the ground. And so that, they believe, was because the gun was out. It wasn't in the waistband.

I want to come back and also talk about this dispatch who obviously didn't relay two very key pieces of information from the call that came in, mentioning it could be a juvenile, it could be a fake gun to the officers. Totally could have changed the dynamics there on the ground as they were responding.

But, Charles Blow, let me go to you, sir. Your response?

CHARLES BLOW, "THE NEW YORK TIMES": Well, we covered a couple things, which is the things we don't know, which is what evidence was presented, all the evidence that was presented to the grand jury, including what people testified to.

So that's what we don't know. But what we do know is incredibly troubling. It's always a problem to get into somebody else's state of mind. You don't know what anybody else is thinking, but you do know what they wrote down. Right? We do know that in the police report that the officer said that they told Tamir Rice three times to drop his gun, but they said they did that in 1.5 seconds?

Like, it just strains credulity as what they are actually saying that they did. And then the idea that he is killed without even having time to comply is an extraordinary thing to comprehend, for anybody to comprehend, and in particular for the parents of this child to comprehend.

I want to just always go back to, like, I'm not trying to litigate any part of this in the public or media or whatever, but I do want to ask, constantly ask, what do we say to these parents who are losing these children?

Are we really saying to those parents that, too bad, it's a tragic mistake, but it was reasonable for us to kill this child? Because that is really hard for a parent to take. And I am a parent.

BALDWIN: You're a parent.

(CROSSTALK)

BLOW: -- looking for pictures of Tamir where he looks like he's 20. And I can't find any.

I have 6'2'', 6'3'' boys of my own. And they still look like babies to me. I'm just -- I have a hard time processing this idea of constant loss and constant justification of taking those lives. What do we tell those parents? And until somebody gives me a rational kind of explanation that will make sense to a parent who has to bury a baby, none of this seems to make sense to me.

And even the logistics of how they -- I was out there on the anniversary of Tamir's killing. I interviewed his mother that day. I walked around. I walked. I stood on the spot where his blood soaked into the ground.

And I'm looking at where that car had to have come from, which was across the park, which was filled with children. And I'm thinking how reckless is that, because in front of those pylons that you see in front of that car in the video, there's a driveway where you could -- if you actually thought that this was a threat to you and to others, you could have used it, you could have stayed far enough away from that person with the gun and given them time to put the gun down or know that they were not going to do it and then to fire if you felt that you still needed to do that.

But to come barreling in, a couple of feet away from a person that you believe to be a danger and to have a gun, none of it makes sense. They were right at the swing set when there are kids out there. I just -- I can't wrap my head around any parts of it. BALDWIN: The point about the driveway, the question, one of many

questions we know, that Tamir Rice's mother had brought up.

I think, Charles, you hit on it with the whole what do we tell these parents.

Reverend Jawanza Colvin is on the phone with me. He's a reverend in the Cleveland area.

I'm sure, sir, that this is a question that perhaps you struggle with in terms of parents in your community, given the fact that this 12- year-old's life was lost and now given the fact that these officers aren't charged. How do you respond to that? What do you say?

[15:10:00]

REV. JAWANZA COLVIN, COMMUNITY ACTIVIST: Well, first, let me extend my -- my prayers go out to Samaria Rice, the entire Rice family. I have had opportunities to get to know them.

And they have carried the cause, the tragic loss of Tamir with great dignity and grace, certainly to Mr. Blow, who has given to -- his columns and his voice have given national attention to this.

Obviously, for our city, our city now joins so many other cities, like Chicago and Ferguson and Baltimore, who in many respects feel that, in some respects, there's still justice waiting to be received and waiting to be had.

It is very unfortunate that we are at a point where, even in light of the video that we have seen, in light of the facts that have come forth and Mr. Blow has laid out I think in a very clear manner, that we are still at a place where there are more questions than there are answers.

When you go back and look at all that was presented, as being presented by the prosecutor's office, there's still such that remains to be seen of why this young man was not given ample opportunity to comply with the officers' command and within one second was shot.

There's so many other questions about why did he not receive emergency medical attention when, if it had been an officer down, there's no doubt that another officer would have applied it within seconds of the victim being shot?

Unfortunately, we are at a place where we have seen that there are more questions than answers. And as we have seen in the city of Cleveland, when we have had the Department of Justice to come in, what happened is not only did the officers fail Tamir, but a system failed Tamir Rice.

BALDWIN: We are so not finished talking about this. Pastor Colvin, I appreciate that. And I wish your community peace. Thank you so much for your voice. Charles Blow, thank you. And Jean and Joey, thank you as well. We do need to get to some more breaking news in Chicago, the mayor

there, Rahm Emanuel, is making an announcement moments ago after police there shoot and kill an unarmed grandmother and college student, what he's doing now as his city remains on edge.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:15:45]

BALDWIN: We have more breaking news now into us here at CNN.

To Chicago, we go. We have just learned the mayor there, Rahm Emanuel, is officially cutting his family vacation to Cuba short to deal with this ongoing police crisis back home in Chicago. Just over this weekend, police there shot and killed two people, including a 55- year-old grandmother who officers say was shot accidentally.

Let's go first to Rosa Flores, who is live in Chicago with more on this.

Rosa, how long had he been in Cuba? What went into the decision process? What do you know?

ROSA FLORES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: You know, Brooke, sometimes, it's about optics and a lot of people here in Chicago had been asking, where is the mayor, of course, after these two people were shot, with police even saying the 55-year-old was shot accidentally?

Well, just moments ago, we received an e-mail from the mayor's office. I'm going to quote here. It says, he's cutting the family trip short, that he can continue the ongoing work of restoring accountability and trust in the Chicago Police Department. He will arrive back in Chicago on Tuesday afternoon.

Now, we should add, Brooke, that from Cuba the mayor did release a statement saying that he was asking IPRA -- that's the Independent Police Review Authority -- and the Chicago Police Department to get together and to review training, now, specifically, crisis intervention training.

And that's for calls involving mental health crises. Now, in this particular case, the 19-year-old who was shot and killed, the family is saying that he was not having a mental health crisis. That's what his mom is saying. His father is saying, yes, that's what he's telling one of our affiliates.

But, at the end of the day, his mother is saying that, regardless, if he was having a mental health crisis or not, that police should not have responded with deadly force -- Brooke.

BALDWIN: Rosa, stand by.

I also have Areva Martin, a civil rights attorney, and CNN legal analyst Philip Holloway joining me as well. So, Areva, first to you. Your reaction that the mayor is leaving Cuba

returning to deal with this. He's already been under fire. The city has. He let go of his police superintendent because of the criticism over not releasing the police video of a separate officer-involved shooting. Made the right decision to come home, yes?

AREVA MARTIN, CIVIL RIGHTS ATTORNEY: Oh, absolutely. No doubt, Chicago is in crisis.

This mayor, his term is in crisis. His leadership is in crisis. I can't even imagine what the community is feeling after watching that Laquan video and watching that young man be shot down by police officers. Now to learn that an officer responds to what appears to be a simple domestic violence call and not one but two people are murdered, it's a little unbelievable to me that Chicago hasn't learned any lessons from the many shootings that we have watched play out in the national news, and this mayor -- absolutely, Rahm needs to return to Chicago and start taking some immediate action and not just talking about what reform is going to look like, but starting to show what reform in a big city like Chicago looks like, given the history of treatment of African-Americans by that police department.

BALDWIN: I know we have talked to so many people in Chicago. And they talk about two different Chicagos and how one Chicago just does not get the sort of justice and attention it so deserves and these recent cases highlighting that.

Philip Holloway, to you specifically on the shootings over the weekend involving this grandmother. What's next? How are you seeing this, the details of the shooting through your legal lens?

PHILIP HOLLOWAY, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Good afternoon, Brooke.

I'm sorry that we keep having to talk about these things. I'm glad to hear that the mayor is returning to Chicago. I think that's the right thing to do.

We don't simply know enough facts at this point in time to make any determinations as to whether or not the shooting was lawful or not. But what we do know at a minimum is that there was some degree of negligence, because police officers were trained that they don't even put their finger on the trigger until they know what their target is and what is behind that target.

And I think that might be, from all I can tell so far, how the grandmother was shot and killed. It may or may not have been a justified use of force. Time will tell. I have my thoughts, but I will keep them to myself until I see and hear more evidence, because, right now, that's just speculation.

[15:20:11]

But I definitely think that some focus by the police department needs to go towards scenario-based training, judgmental shooting and training of that nature, in addition to the crisis management training that the mayor was talking about. BALDWIN: Again, the breaking news, we're learning that Chicago Mayor

Rahm Emanuel to cut his vacation short after this officer-involved shooting over the weekend.

Philip Holloway and Areva Martin, thank you so much. And, of course, thank you, Rosa, in Chicago for us.

Coming up next, more breaking news. The Iraqi army claims it's liberated a terror stronghold from ISIS. There's a long road ahead in the fight against the terror group. I will be joined live by a retired lieutenant colonel to break down the strategy here coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: Here's a headline for you. ISIS will be defeated in Iraq in 2016. At least, that is what the Iraqi prime minister is now vowing, a bold declaration clearly on the back of today's major victory.

The besieged city of Ramadi is now free from the grip of ISIS. After days of firefights and airstrikes and booby-traps, soldiers rush into this government compound and raise the Iraqi flag, now, a win for the army there after their embarrassing loss of the city back in May, Ramadi just one of a string of cities recently wrestled away from ISIS.

Joining me now, I have retired Army Lieutenant Colonel Robert Maginnis. He's also a syndicated columnist and Pentagon consultant.

[15:25:03]

Good to see you, sir.

And here with some new CNN polls as well, Jim Acosta, our senior White House correspondent, who is live in Honolulu, Hawaii, there traveling while the president is on holiday.

So, welcome to both of you.

And, Jim, let me begin with you. Americans with the polls, they're changing their views on the war on ISIS and the war on terror. What do the numbers tell you?

JIM ACOSTA, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: That's right.

First of all, we should point out, Brooke, that the president, according to a White House official, has been updated on this progress in Ramadi. Talking to senior administration officials on the ground here in Honolulu who are cautiously optimistic about what's taking place in Iraq right now with the war on ISIS.

But getting back to this new CNN/ORC poll, which was conducted before this recent success, apparent success in Ramadi, it shows, Brooke, that Americans are still very nervous about the possibility of another terrorist attack in the U.S. after what happened in Paris and San Bernardino, and the public, according to this poll, is simply losing confidence in the administration's ability to stop a terrorist attack and defeat ISIS.

Our latest CNN poll finds -- we can put this up on screen -- only 18 percent of Americans believe that the U.S. is winning the war on ISIS, while 40 percent believe the terrorists have the upper hand and 51 percent of Americans, just 51 percent, are confident that the government can thwart a terrorist attack.

Brooke, that is way down from 65 percent back in 2010. But the public appears to be uncertain about what to do about all of this. Our poll finds Americans are split right down the middle, 49 to 49 percent, on whether to send ground troops into Iraq and Syria to battle ISIS.

And so, Brooke, clearly the public is very nervous, very worried about what's happening in this war on ISIS and the capability of the U.S. government to thwart a terrorist attack here on the U.S. homeland. But at the same time, there may be a bit of reason for the White House there to continue on with this strategy, not just because of these developments in Ramadi, but because the public remains very divided on this prospect or this idea of sending in U.S. ground forces.

The American people are just not there when it comes to that idea, Brooke.

BALDWIN: So, the American people may not be there, but, Colonel Maginnis, I really want your reaction to, as we just read, this response from the Iraqi P.M. saying ISIS will be defeated in Iraq in 2016. A, your response to that? B, do you think that's almost like a dare to the terrorists?

It's no doubt, Brooke, a dare to the terrorists.

COL. ROBERT MAGINNIS (RET.), U.S. ARMY: Well, it's no doubt, Brooke, a dare to the terrorists, but we have to see if it's realistic.

Ramadi, they have been working on for months. Over the last week, of course, they kind of closed the noose around the center part of Ramadi and they chased the Islamists out of there. But it is a success. We have to, however, caveat it by saying they have to see whether or not these people reemerge, the booby-traps, the engineering work that has to be done, bringing the populace back, will the mostly Shia army of the Iraqi security forces be able to get along in that area?

Those are critical issues. Now, having said that, if, in fact, they now begin to transition 260 miles to the north, where Mosul, the real crown jewel of retaking and solidification of the Iraqi claim made by the prime minister, then no doubt they will have a new day. And ISIS will have fallen and ISIS will be in serious trouble.

We will have to wait and see.

BALDWIN: I'm so glad you brought up Mosul, because I was talking to one of our correspondents who sort of mentioned Ramadi as this symbolic victory. But you mentioned Mosul. Raqqa, obviously, an ISIS stronghold, would be huge.

I just want to share with our viewers, the U.S. Central Command, so CENTCOM commander, congratulated the military on the achievement. The question is obviously how is this evidence of more success to come when you look at the scorecard? U.S. CENTCOM lists these as ISIS losses, Tikrit, Baiji, Al-Hal, the Tishreen Dam, and Sinjar, but Mosul and Raqqa, huge ISIS strongholds, are still there.

You hit on this before, but what's next? How do they grab those?

MAGINNIS: Well, we're probably going find a similar strategy. And that is take out the bridges, cut off their supply lines, bomb with precision, try not to have civilian casualties. Use our special ops with the Iraqis to go after their kingpins, their leadership, and then very slowly, over months, I suspect, close in on the very interior and then squeeze out any remaining ISIS.

Now, Raqqa, we're already about 20 miles north of there with a number of allies. We will have to wait and see if we use the same strategy there. If it worked in Ramadi, there's a good chance it will work elsewhere, as long as they can generate the combat power.

And, of course, we're there to help train and to equip them. There is reason to be optimistic, but keep in mind what the caliph, Baghdadi, said just said the other day. He said, this war is not over. You know, we take casualties.