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FBI: Killer Couple Radicalized "For Some Time"; Trump Doubles Down on Banning Muslims; Chicago Police Under Fire for Another Police Shooting. Aired 2:30-3p ET

Aired December 8, 2015 - 14:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[14:30:00] ASRA NORMANI, CO-FOUNDER, MUSLIM REFORM MOVEMENT & AUTHOR: It's a really important statement. But what we don't understand in this statement is that radicalization is like a conveyor belt. It occurs at one point and then you continue on this belt. So with this photograph and with other clues that I saw, for example, with the husband, he's not wearing a mustache, as you can tell. If your viewers Google wearing a mustache, they are going to see that, in fact, this tradition of Islam following the tradition of the Prophet Mohammed says that men should shave their mustache and women should cover completely.

So I brought here this Koran. And to give you one example, chapter 33, verse 59, "Oh, prophet, tell your wives to draw their cloaks all over their bodies." So right now, I feel like I'm modest. But what the Saudi version says is, "Draw their cloaks," and in parentheses, it says, "veils all over their bodies," i.e., screen themselves completely, "except the eyes or one eye to see the way." So this is this tradition of Islam that we have to talk about called Salifism.

And I think I am a good Muslim. But what they expect is for a Muslim woman to look like this, covering completely. Now this doesn't mean that the women that we see wearing these veils are radical extremists. But what we have to start doing as we really try to burrow down into our understanding about Islamic thought is understand that there is this continuum, and unfortunately, Tashfeen Malik went on that conveyor belt towards violence.

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: I'd like to know a bit about your experience with the Taliban Ladies Auxiliary. You have even talked about some chapters here in the United States.

NORMANI: Oh, yes. It was really disturbing. I'm a very personal level, Poppy, because my aunts went from India to Pakistan as very modern moderate women. Then in Pakistan, they started going to these circles. And they invited me along. That is where they ended up on this conveyor belt, not towards violence, but toward supporting the Taliban and al Qaeda at that time. Today, many of those women support the Islamic State.

And so at that time, I called them the Taliban Ladies Auxiliary. Your viewers may be distressed to hear this, but they have chapters in the United States, in Texas, and in Canada. The teacher is a very respected woman in those circles. If you simply Google their pictures and look for their students, you'll see their classrooms are filled with women that are covered like Tashfeen. Importantly, not every woman is a radical extremist who is violent. So as a country --

(CROSSTALK)

HARLOW: Not even close. I just think that's a very important distinction to make.

NORMANI: It's very important. It's very important. I simply want to make this point about theology because, just like we never say Christianity is something, there is no monolithic Islam. What we as a society are prepared to do as a society is understand that continuum. I think that's how we're going to be able to understand the far extreme that ends up in violent radicalization.

HARLOW: Asra Normani, thank you very much for coming on the program. I appreciate it.

NORMANI: Thank you so much.

HARLOW: Coming up next, CNN's Chris Cuomo, one-on-one with Donald Trump. The Republican front runner today defending his proposal to block Muslims from entering the United States. You will hear that interview, straight ahead.

Also, from Egypt to the United Kingdom, reaction to Donald Trump's comments reverberating around the world. Hear what countries' leaders are saying.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:38:44] HARLOW: In a campaign that has been riddled with controversy, Donald Trump has ignited a fire storm that perhaps eclipses all that have preceded this. The leading candidate for the Republican presidential nomination wants to temporarily ban Muslims from entering the United States. Some calling it unfair, unconstitutional and un-American.

Trump responding to those accusations in a one-on-one interview with Chris Cuomo. Here is part of that conversation from today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE & CEO, TRUMP ORGANIZATION (voice-over): We can close the eyes and put the blinders on, but I don't choose to do that. Is it temporary, yes, it's until the country's representatives can figure out what is going on.

(CROSSTALK)

TRUMP: -- destroying our country.

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN CO-ANCHOR, NEW DAY: What destroys America --

(CROSSTALK)

TRUMP: We don't even know where they are.

CUOMO: What destroys America --

(CROSSTALK)

TRUMP: We don't know where they're coming from. There's no documentation. There's no paperwork. Why do we insist on destroying our country?

CUOMO: Make the system better. But what tears at America's fabric more --

(CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: -- than rejecting an entire faith in the land of religious freedom.

TRUMP: Chris, you have a large portion of people from Syria that are Christian. Why aren't we allowing the Christians in? We only allow the Muslims in.

CUOMO: That's not true.

TRUMP: Why aren't we allowing the Christians in?

CUOMO: That's just not true. Does it matter to you that it's not true?

(CROSSTALK)

TRUMP: It's largely true because the percentage is in favor of the Muslims.

(CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: Well, you have a massive Muslim population.

[14:40:05] TRUMP: Excuse me, Chris. The ones that are in the bigger danger are the Christians.

CUOMO: They are being --

TRUMP: They're the ones getting their heads chopped off.

CUOMO: -- allowed into the refugee program.

(CROSSTALK)

TRUMP: And we are not allowing the Christians into anywhere near the extent we should be.

CUOMO: Yeah, you know why? Because people like you say Syrian refugees shouldn't come into the country. How can you say let the Syrian Christians in --

(CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: -- but you don't want to let Syrian refugees in. TRUMP: Excuse me. No, we should not let them in because --

CUOMO: So you shouldn't let them in.

TRUMP: -- we don't know if they are ISIS. We don't know if they're terrorists.

CUOMO: So you care about the Syrian Christians but not enough to let them in?

TRUMP: If we're letting in, why aren't we letting the Christians in? Why are we letting the Muslims in and not the Christians?

CUOMO: You tell me. You are saying no. You're the one saying no. Why aren't we letting them in?

TRUMP: Well, I guess Obama set a policy or something --

(CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: He didn't set a policy. He is letting them in.

TRUMP: -- by somebody in the administration.

CUOMO: No, that's just not true. That's just not true.

TRUMP: If you happen to be a Christian in Syria, it's almost impossible to come into this country.

CUOMO: Look, the only --

(CROSSTALK)

TRUMP: If you're a Muslim, you can get in.

CUOMO: Mr. Trump --

(CROSSTALK)

TRUMP: -- tell me why is that, Chris.

CUOMO: I will. Give me a second and I'll explain it to you. The refugee process is onerous. They have to go through the UNHC and it can take months or years. Then it comes to the U.S. vetting. You're making a case for refugee vetting, which many people will appreciate. It takes a long time. It's very exhaustive. However, what we're dealing with now in the country, as you well know, because you're a major proponent of it, is ignoring, what you just stated as fact, which is that it's tough to get through the refugee program and saying even still we need to keep them out.

TRUMP: It's tough if you're Christian. That I can tell you.

CUOMO: No.

TRUMP: If you're a Christian, it's almost impossible to come into our country.

CUOMO: Let me ask you this, Mr. Trump. We have had a couple conversations on and off camera about the GOP being fair to you. You're not going to do a third party thing, you'll stay true to your pledge, as long as they are fair. Can you blame the GOP for moving against you after saying something like this? Can you accuse them of being unfair if they say we can't have our nominee tearing at the fabric of what America is, we're going to have to do something against you at the convention, or whatever they come up? Would you hold to the pledge because you have created your own problem?

TRUMP: Well, there's no problem. I'm doing the right thing. I'm doing the right thing. I could very well just rested on my poll numbers, which you just released, and they are phenomenal. I'm leading everybody. And I could rest on them nicely and there's no problem. And they go up and down. I have to do the right thing. I am talking about a measure, the measure that ends -- it's not a measure that's in stone. We have to find out what we're doing.

We're letting people into our country, we don't know who they are. We have people right now who are getting $28,000 miraculously over the last little while deposited in their account that they are using for very sinister purposes. There are like this two, this husband and wife, this horrendous husband and wife, you have many other people in this country like that. Many other people are having checks deposited in their account to do destruction.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HARLOW: That's part of the interview. The entire interview is online at CNN.com. You can see much more of it here.

Straight ahead, a city on edge. A new video of a man being tased in Chicago inside of his jail cell. He later dies. The mayor of Chicago, Rahm Emanuel, demanding answers from his own police department. Next, I will speak with a Chicago mother who is demanding action after her son died in a police-involved shooting last year. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:46:57] HARLOW: Another shocking police video out of Chicago. A video of police tasing a man in his jail cell. This is back in 2012. The video just released. The limp body of 38-year-old Philip Coleman is dragged from the cell down the hallway. Coleman later passed away in the hospital. The medical examiner determined he died from an adverse reaction to a sedative that was administered there in the hospital. The death ruled an accident.

Philip Coleman's father spoke just moments ago.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PERCY COLEMAN, FATHER OF PHILIP COLEMAN: Somebody in this city needs to be responsible for killing my son. The Chicago police are at the head of this table. They broke every rule in the book. If you are e bleeding and you are hurt when the police are going to arrest you for something, they have to take you to the hospital. That's what they have to do. They didn't do that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: This video comes hours after the announcement that no charges will be filed against a different Chicago police officer who shot and killed 25-year-old Ronald Johnson in October of last year. Police dash cam video just released this week shows Johnson running away from officers into a public park when he was killed. The investigation concluded that Johnson was carrying a gun and refused officers repeated calls to stop and drop it.

The mother of that young man, Dorothy Holmes, joins me now. She's joined by her attorney, Michael Oppenheimer.

Thank you very much both for being here.

DOROTHY HOLMES, MOTHER OF RONALD JOHNSON: Thank you.

MICHAEL OPPENHEIMER, ATTORNEY FOR RONALD JOHNSON FAMILY. Thank you.

HARLOW: I'd like to begin by showing and playing for our viewers some of what Cook County states attorney said yesterday.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANITA ALVAREZ, COOK COUNTY STATES ATTORNEY: At the time of the shooting, Mr. Johnson was armed with a handgun. Mr. Johnson had run from an area where shots had recently been fired. Mr. Johnson resisted arrest and Mr. Johnson ran into a public park and towards an occupied police vehicle that was arriving on the scene in that park. Based upon an objective review of the evidence and the law, we have determined that the prosecution could not establish beyond a reasonable doubt that the actions of Officer Hernandez were not reasonable and permissible under the laws of the state of Illinois.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[14:50:12] HARLOW: So to you first, Dorothy.

Alvarez said the killing of your son, she used the word "reasonable." What is your reaction?

DOROTHY HOLMES, MOTHER OF RONALD JOHNSON: That she went on TV and the officer changed his story on what happened the night he murdered my son. And the states attorney is covering up for him. Even though she's a states attorney, but she was acting like she was hire d to represent him as his private attorney.

HARLOW: Michael, to you.

We heard Alvarez say yesterday in this it press conference -- I watched the entire thing -- that the video is not ideal quality. She says it is dark and blurry and happened to fast. But she notes an object and the state says that object is a gun. And you say it's not a gun. You say it was planted. What is your reaction and what is your evidence behind that?

OPPENHEIMER: Well, first of all, the states attorney office is supposedly had had this case for 14 months. They have conducted no investigation. In fact, they called me high-ranking members of the office called me Friday night to ask me if I had any evidence to give them. There's been no investigation. Anita Alvarez spent an hour trying to justify her decision not to charge Officer Hernandez. I have never seen that in a long career as a prosecutor, as a criminal defense attorney and civil rights attorney. She said they relied on IPRA, the Independent Police Review Authority, for their investigation, which means she basically admitted they did no investigation themselves. IPRA is a flawed organization, who never or rarely recommends discipline for offers. In fact, the head of the organization was fired two days ago before her press conference.

HARLOW: Just to -- just to be clear, I want to be very clear, the head of IPRA was not fired. He stepped down. There were not broad calls for his resignation. She said this is a completely independent investigation.

Dorothy, to you.

We just saw and we showed our viewers before you came on another video of a death and someone who was tased in their jail cell in 2012. What do you make of the city of Chicago now releasing these three videos in the span of two weeks? Are you happy to see that?

HOLMES: No, it's not nothing to be happy about. It just shows how corrupt the CPD is in the city of Chicago. These murders are being covered up. It's time for a change. The only change I know is to fight back. I don't know how nobody else about it, but I'm not giving up. I'm going to keep fighting because justice is going to get served.

HARLOW: What does justice look like for your son?

HOLMES: Right now, I'm going to get justice for him because we're going to get Anita Alvarez. Somebody is going to step in and do a full investigation of all these murders here in the city of Chicago.

HARLOW: We know the Department of Justice has launched a pattern and practice investigation this week. We'll continue to follow it.

Dorothy Holmes, thank you.

Michael Oppenheimer, thank you very much.

OPPENHEIMER: Thank you.

HARLOW: Coming up, the RNC chairman responding to Donald Trump's call to put a travel ban on Muslims coming into the United States. Is a brokered GOP convention or a third party now a serious possibility? We'll talk about it. Stay with me.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) [14:55:00] HARLOW: Today is an ominous anniversary in music history. 35 years ago today, former Beatle John Lennon gunned down as he was returning to his apartment building in New York City.

CNN's Kyra Phillips has been exploring the life and death of Lennon in a special report that airs tonight.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

(SINGING)

KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Would Mark play the same song over and over again?

VANCE HUNTER, MARK CHAPMAN'S HIGH SCHOOL FRIEND: Yeah, sometimes. One evening, I came up to see him after dinner and he was in his room. And the strangest thing is he had the volume cranked up all the way and he was laying on the floor with the two speakers by each ear, turned up as loud as he could go.

PHILLIPS (voice-over): As the Beatles started getting into drugs, so did Chapman, eventually LSD. His hallucinations so intense, Vance says, at one point, Mark said he was John Lennon.

HUNTER: He was psychotic. He had become a completely different person.

PHILLIPS: Chapman became delusional.

HUNTER: Jesus had talked to him.

PHILLIPS (on camera): What did Jesus tell him?

HUNTER: Jesus told him to change his ways.

MILES MCMANUS, MARK CHAPMAN'S HIGH SCHOOL FRIEND: He changed and he decided on religion. He didn't just go to church on Sunday and try to live a better life. He just became what we call a Jesus Freak.

PHILLIPS (voice-over): That became a problem, says high school friend, Miles McManus, when Chapman discovered an old quote, famously proclaiming the Beatles more popular than Jesus.

MCMANUS: He was very mad about it and would not listen to Beatles records anymore and he destroyed all his albums. He even said he changed the words of "Imagine" to say, "Imagine if John were dead."

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HARLOW: Kyra, you got exclusive access to Mark Chapman's jailhouse recordings, his journal, his calendar.

PHILLIPS: Chilling, that's the one word, chilling. And when you hear his voice and you hear him describe the murder and what he was thinking and why he did it and how he planned it.