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CNN NEWSROOM

Turkey Downs Russian Warplane Near Syria; Russian Foreign Minister Cancels Trip to Turkey; French President Arrives in Washington; Interview with Nicholas Burns; Worldwide Travel Warning for Americans; NATO Holds Emergency Session; Aired 10-10:30a ET

Aired November 24, 2015 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[10:00:03] CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: Turkey responds and the Russian jet nosedives in flames. Two pilots eject. You're going to see them here highlighted. They parachute to the ground, they landed in Syria, but not necessarily to safety. That territory in Syria largely held by rebels. The very group that Russian airstrikes are targeting.

Russian president Vladimir Putin lashing out as helicopters canvas the rebel hot spot. Turkey, a key U.S. ally and a fellow member of NATO, the Western alliance holding an emergency session this morning, and global concerns rising over whether this conflict will derail the coalition building against ISIS.

We're covering all the angles, we'll turn to Nicholas Burns, the former ambassador and undersecretary of state.

Does this military action trample this hour's anti-ISIS meeting between President Obama and Francois Hollande? But first our correspondents are fanning out from Moscow to Washington to bring you the latest. So let's get right to it with CNN's Matthew Chance and Nick Paton Walsh and the opposing perspectives unfolding this hour.

We begin with Nick in the Turkish city of Istanbul. Hi, Nick.

NICK PATON WALSH, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Their view of what happened was, as you said, a jet -- a Russian jet flew, an SU- 24 flew inside their air space. And if you look at the map they've delivered, it's a small enclave of Turkish air space that have seemed to have crossed potentially more than once and during the five-minute period they gave it 10 separate warnings and then a Turkish F-16 shot the plane out of the sky.

That appears to be the Turkish military position here. There was some confusion but that is also what's echoed by Vladimir Putin, who in fact insists that that jet was inside Syrian territory. The Turkish obviously furious here because they've had a number of instance along this border over the past years and have responded at times to Syrian military aircraft in a similar vain.

The key issue now is the fate of those pilots. It doesn't sound good according to social media videos and reports from the ground that when they parachuted out, they may not have landed into safety as you said. And there's also activists suggesting potentially the fate of one of the Russian helicopters that even were dispatched to try and attack those behind, try to get hold of the pilot or to rescue the pilots themselves. One of those may have been damaged. That's not clear at this stage.

But on the border it's already extraordinarily tense, where so many air forces are in operation, the coalition nearby the French, the Russians in different areas, the Syrian air force, the Turkish air force, a number of others in the coalition to finally some say some element of inevitably a horrifying instance like this has happened, with all the fast paced geographical ramifications that it has -- Carol.

COSTELLO: All right. Nick Paton Walsh reporting live from Turkey.

And we just got word that Russia's foreign minister has cancelled a scheduled trip to Turkey. So as you can see, tensions between the two nations ratcheting up.

Let's head to Moscow now and Matthew Chance with what the Russian president is saying this morning.

MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, well, it is absolutely astonishing, Carol, that Turkey, which is a NATO member, would shoot out of the sky a Russian warplane on that very volatile border with Syria bringing these two militaries, that the NATO military alliance, through the Turkish military, and Russian forces currently bombarding Syria into such a dangerous confrontation. The geopolitical consequences could be absolutely immense. And only now starting to unfold.

Within the past few minutes, as you mentioned, the Russian foreign minister has announced that he's cancelled his plans to go to Turkey. He was meant to go there tomorrow to discuss Syria. That's now off the table. So there's already a diplomatic impact. Furthermore, Sergey Lavrov, who is the Russian foreign minister, calling on Russians -- he's been saying this on state television a few minutes ago. Calling on Russians to abandon their plans to travel as tourists to Turkey.

And that's really significant because, you know, Turkey is one of the main destinations after Egypt, in fact, where they're also not going on holiday now. For Russians to spend their vacations. And so it's a major economic impact, one of the few ways that Russia can exert economic influence on Turkey. Calling on Russian tourists now not to go on their vacations inside Turkey.

And so the diplomatic broadsides have already started to be fired. And there could be more, of course, in the days ahead and even in the hours ahead because we heard Vladimir Putin speaking on state television down in Sochi before meeting with the Jordanian king earlier today, saying that this shooting down of this Russian airliner, was, in his words, a stab in the back by the terrorists' accomplices. So he's directly accusing Turkey of being the accomplices of the terrorists, as he called them.

He also stated again that Russia totally rejects this idea, this claim by the Turks, that the Russian plane had violated Turkish air space.

[10:05:07] I know the Turks have put out radar maps indicating that the plane did go into Turkey for a number of minutes, as Nick Paton Walsh was talking about there. But the Russians categorically deny that. They say just operated inside Turkey. It was shot down one kilometer about half a mile away from the Turkish border. The pilots came down somewhere around about four kilometers, 2 1/2 miles or so, away from the Turkish border.

And now that the fate of those pilots is unclear. They've probably fallen into the hands of rebel groups. And it's not clear at this stage whether either of those pilots have survived. In fact, there were reports circulating unconfirmed reports, I should say, circulating on social media, that neither of them have survived this and were actually killed as they parachuted down to the ground before their plane burst into flames as it hit the land.

And so it's an extraordinarily serious and dramatic episode in this Syrian conflict involving Russia and Turkey, but also potentially dragging in Russia and the rest of the NATO military alliance as well.

COSTELLO: All right. Matthew Chance, Nick Paton Walsh, thanks to both of you.

President Obama is meeting with French President Francois Hollande today on the agenda a united front against ISIS, one that included Russia, France and the United States, but that now appears unlikely.

CNN's Michelle Kosinski is at her post at the White House with more on that. Good morning.

MICHELLE KOSINSKI, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Carol. Right. President Hollande is expected to arrive any minute now and will sit down in the Oval Office with President Obama for about an hour, followed up with a press conference. So we'll hear from both leaders there.

We just saw a huge contingent of the French media arrive. There's a sense of anticipation around here. Will this meeting be just talk? And of course, there's plenty to talk about. Or will there be concrete developments, changes or decisions coming out of this? We'll wait to hear from that in the press conference.

But as for those topics of discussion that are quite complicated, I mean, questions they've been facing for a long time, include, are enough resources being devoted to the fight against ISIS? What is working and what is not? Is the strategy even working to the extent that it should? And can all of these extremely diverse interests that are now at play there, including Russia, Iran, Europe, America, the Middle East, can they work constructively together? And to what extent will these latest developments affect all of that?

So what France is wanting is a ramping up in the fight against ISIS. In fact, just yesterday we saw them talk to the British prime minister who now says he will go back to parliament and, again, ask to begin air strikes over Syria. That's something that parliament rejected pretty much from the beginning.

France wants to increase its national security. He wants to work with the U.S. It's looking for continued help from the U.S. Not something that the White House is absolutely willing to give. But, you know, the past few days we've also heard the White House mention repeatedly that it does want to intensify the effort. It could devote more resources, itself to the effort. So how exactly that will play out, what that will look like. That is what the world is waiting to hear -- Carol.

COSTELLO: All right. Michelle Kosinski, thanks so much. Michelle Kosinski, reporting live from the White House.

NATO allies will hold what they call an extraordinary meeting over the incident in the next hour. They'll demand from Turkey an explanation as to why it shot down that Russian fighter jet.

Russia seems to be downplaying Turkey's involvement. Vladimir Putin saying the loss of the jet is a stab in the back carried out by accomplices of the terrorists, although we don't exactly know what his words mean right now, but perhaps my next guest could help us parse that out.

Former ambassador and undersecretary for political affairs, Nicholas Burns, is here. He's also a former State Department official.

Welcome, sir.

AMBASSADOR NICHOLAS BURNS, FORMER U.S. UNDERSECRETARY FOR POLITICAL AFFAIRS: Thank you very much, Carol.

COSTELLO: How serious is this?

BURNS: Well, this is obviously a very serious situation. Whenever you have the Russian federation and a NATO ally like Turkey at loggerheads, it's serious for them, it's serious for the United States.

I think, Carol, the first thing that the U.S. and the other NATO allies will try to do at NATO headquarters is ascertain the facts, exactly what happened. The Turks apparently, according to the press, have maps, have video footage, that certify that the Russian aircraft, Sukhoi fighter, did enter Turkish air space. If that is the case, and given the fact that Russian aircraft have violated Turkish air space at least twice in the last month, and that Russian drones have done so, I think that the NATO alliance, including the United States, is going to have to support the Turks in defending their air space.

But at the same time, obviously President Obama is not going to want to see this crisis inflame. He'll work I think behind the scenes with both the Turks and Russians to make sure this is an isolated incident, that the military pressure between the two doesn't ratchet up and you avoid a larger confrontation between Turkey and Russia.

[10:10:11] COSTELLO: Why do you suppose that Russian fighter jet was in that area anyway? It's not really known as an ISIS stronghold. BURNS: Well, the Russians apparently have been bombing -- Syrian

Turkmen villages in the northern part of Syria. The Turks have warned the Russians diplomatically in the last two weeks that that's very much contrary to Turkish interests. The Turks feel they're protectors of the ethnic Turkmen inside Syria. They called in the Russian ambassador to lodge a formal protest last week and they did, including the Turkish head of state, President Erdogan, threatened the Russians with a shoot-down a month ago if Russian aircraft entered their space.

Perhaps the Russians didn't think the Turks were serious about defending their border but the Turks have made that point this morning. It's a point that's important to the United States. At the heart of the NATO alliance is that we help other NATO allies defend their borders. Obviously, the United States should want to limit this crisis and not see it get out of control. And I do think, Carol, again, that's where the focal point of U.S. efforts behind the scenes will be this morning and this afternoon.

COSTELLO: You're talking about President Hollande meeting with President Obama because the reason President Hollande is here is to try to unify this coalition, and that includes Russia. But now that this has happened, it seems that's an impossible task, doesn't it?

BURNS: I think it's going to be very difficult because look, there are two key countries that have not been fully in the fight against the Islamic State. Russia and Turkey. Turkey has been bombing the Syrian Kurdish groups that have been the most effective fighting forces against the Islamic State on the ground, and of course Russia has spent most of its time including this morning, having its air operations over that part of Syria closest to the Turkish border. They've been bombing Sunni groups that are opposed to the Assad regime which Russia supports.

And I think President Hollande had hoped and I think President Obama had hoped perhaps we can now, after the Paris attacks, draw in Russia and Turkey to support a bigger coalition against the Islamic State. It's clear that both Russia and Turkey have other things in mind. And now they've got a very serious bilateral dispute between them.

COSTELLO: Ambassador Nick Burns, thanks for your insight.

BURNS: Thank you, Carol.

COSTELLO: You're welcome.

Still to come in the NEWSROOM, the State Department issuing a worldwide travel alert for all Americans. What you need to watch for.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:16:38] COSTELLO: A frightening warning for Americans traveling this holiday season. The FBI is concerned that terrorists will try replicating the deadly Paris attacks right here at home. State Department also issuing a new global travel alert for Americans, warning them to be on guard when traveling over the holidays.

CNN's Jim Sciutto live in Washington with more on this. Good morning.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Carol. So to be clear, it's not a credible, specific threat. They don't know of a particular group trying to attack a particular target in the coming days or weeks but they know how these groups operate. They look for inspiration from their fellow terrorist abroad and these Paris attacks captured the world's attention. They know that that may be a possibility.

Here's what the FBI bulletin says specifically. It says that, "We remain concerned that HVEs," those are homegrown violent extremists, "could seek to replicate the effects of the Paris attacks using similar weapons and tactics, although on a smaller scale."

Why on a smaller scale? Because one thing that Europe does have over us is a far greater number of suspected jihadis, hundreds, perhaps thousands, where we may have dozens. But still it's a real concern. And they're telling police departments, FBI units around the country to review their training on active shooters. To look for people who might be surveilling targets, taking pictures, et cetera. You know, it's pretty general but they do take this seriously, Carol.

COSTELLO: All right. So the warnings are so broad, I think people are supposed to, like, look for anything and everything?

SCIUTTO: You know, it's really tough for us, for people at home and for us as well. How do you digest this? Because at the same time you have the State Department warning which is global, basically saying to Americans, if you're traveling abroad, groups like this may want to attack sporting events, aviation, public places, churches, synagogues. You know, the trouble with that is, you know, you could lock yourself in your room, right, and never leave your house again. But that's not what anybody is recommending here. They're just saying be more aware and the sad fact is, Carol --

COSTELLO: Hey, Jim.

SCIUTTO: -- that's the world we live in.

COSTELLO: Jim. Yes, Jim, I just want to interrupt you. Maybe you can help me with this. President Hollande is arriving at the White House. He's going to meet with President Obama in the Oval Office to talk about, no doubt, what happened in the skies over the Syria- Turkish border earlier today. And you know a lot about this as well.

President Hollande was going to get the president to try to, like, you know, try to help him get this unified front in the fight against ISIS in that region of the world, and that included Russia and Turkey. But that's not likely to happen now, is it?

SCIUTTO: Well, it's troubling. And he's basically on a coalition- building trip, President Hollande. They've just had these horrible attacks. He's pushing for more military help from France's allies and this possibility of the more difficult, not necessarily allies, not necessarily enemies, countries like Russia, who is also in Syria, but principally to protect Assad. How do you get them involved in the ISIS fight considering Russia just had a plane blown out of the sky by ISIS as well?

Trouble is, of course, Turkey now has apparently shot down this Russia's plane. They're a NATO ally. Allies of the U.S., allies of France. I mean, it's the last complication you want in the midst of this. It really makes it difficult. There'll be some difficult conversations in the West Wing today.

COSTELLO: OK. We'll see. They're going to hold a news conference later today. We'll see what both leaders have to say.

Jim Sciutto reporting live from Washington.

See how intelligence agencies are in a fierce fight to keep the world safe when Jim Sciutto brings you an exclusive look inside the war on terror. "Targeting Terror: Inside the Intelligence War" airs tonight 9:00 p.m. Eastern on CNN.

[10:20:11] Still to come in the NEWSROOM, a stab in the back that will have serious consequences. Vladimir Putin lashing out at Turkey after a Russian warplane is gunned down.

Up next, what it means for the global community.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSTELLO: All right. You're about to look at pictures from the White House right now. President Obama and the French president Francois Hollande are holding their first face-to-face meeting since those brutal terror attacks in Paris. The goal here, to try to form a more robust coalition against ISIS. That focus, though, will likely be overshadowed by today's downing of a Russian warplane by Turkey.

[10:25:03] Russia denies it violated Turkey's air space and is now warning of serious consequences. One of the big questions right now, how will this latest development complicate strategy, especially if Russia retaliates against NATO member Turkey?

Just minutes from now, the top of the hour, NATO will hold an emergency session on Turkey shootdown of that Russian warplane. Turkey called for the meeting to explain its action to fellow NATO allies.

CNN's senior international correspondent Fred Pleitgen is in Brussels, he's outside of NATO.

Tell us more, Fred.

FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Carol. Yes, you're absolutely right. That meeting is set to begin here in Brussels, I would say, in about 30 minutes from now. And what's going to happen is that all the parties are going to come together. The Turks, of course, as you mentioned, have called for this emergency meeting. And the first thing they're going to do is they're going to share information.

They're going to tell all the other NATO members the way that they saw this incident unfold. Of course the Turks have been saying that they believe that this Russian fighter jet went into Turkish air space, this was a violation of Turkish air space, and that is why their jet retaliated.

Now we know the Russians have a very different view of that. But at this point in time it will be the Turks who are going to make their case to the other NATO allies and tell them exactly what they believe what happened.

Now, of course, we also have to keep in mind, Carol, that there's a history to all this. The Turks have been complaining for quite a while that they say that Russian jets that are operating in Syria have been violating their air space. There was already one emergency NATO council meeting that took place because of that. This is about 1 1/2 months ago. And back then the NATO council put out a statement.

Now I want to read part of that statement to you. OK. We have to keep in mind, this is a statement from early October, the first time that something -- that the Turks say a jet went into their air space. They said, "Allies strongly protest these violations of Turkish sovereign air space and condemn these incursions and violations of NATO air space. Allies also note the extreme danger of such irresponsible behavior. They call on the Russian federation to cease and desist and immediately explain these violations."

Now we believe, Carol, that today at the end of the meeting you'll see today, you'll also see some sort of statement come out of here. But of course, we do have to keep in mind this time, the stakes are so much higher. So it will be interesting to see what's decided here at the end of the day.

COSTELLO: All right. Frederik Pleitgen, reporting live from Brussels this morning.

Keep in mind, Turkey says Russia was warned 10 times before it responded to an apparent air space violation and that it responded within, quote, "the framework of engagement rules."

So let's talk about this with CNN counterterrorism analyst Philip Mudd, he's also a former CIA counterterrorism official.

Welcome, Philip.

PHILIP MUDD, CNN COUNTERTERRORISM ANALYST: Thank you.

COSTELLO: So the Turks say they warned these Russian fighter pilots 10 times within a period of five minutes, not to invade Turkish air space. And when the Russian warplane ignored those warnings, they open fire.

MUDD: That's right. But there's a couple of questions here. The first is, who's responsible for the violation of air space? Did the Russians actually do that? I think the Turks are putting two questions together that can't be together. If they violated air space by a couple of kilometers, in the midst of conversations with the Russians about what the ultimate future is for Syria and Russia has to be part of the solution for Syria, as a NATO ally, do you want to go in taking down an aircraft despite the fact that they have violated your air space?

I think in public NATO has to have a unified front. I think in private there have to be some tough conversation with the Turks saying, regardless of the Russian provocation, let's not get too hot under the collar. We've got bigger fish to deal with here.

COSTELLO: OK. So Turkey released radar. And I want -- I want that put on the screen right now because it's very difficult to determine from this -- do we have this? OK. It's coming. So Turkey says, what you're -- there it is. OK. So it's very confusing to look at, right? But Turkey says this is evidence that that Russian plane did, indeed, invade its air space.

MUDD: That may be correct. But you still go back to the diplomatic point of the Turks of saying, over the course of the next six months, 12 months, NATO foreign ministers have to get together with a conversation about how to oust Assad. So far the two key players on the other side, that is the Iranians and the Russians, who have been meeting in the past 48 hours, have said, we're not going to support an external effort, that is a NATO effort, to get rid of Assad.

In the midst of that big game, how do we bring some stability to Syria? You're going to go in and tell the Turks it's a good idea, despite the fact that the Russians have violated your air space? To take down an aircraft? I think they may be technically correct but it's not clear to me that that justifies the act they took. I can't believe NATO foreign ministers are going to say, if the Russians do this, fine, take down more aircraft.

COSTELLO: OK. So complicating matters, the two pilots that ejected, they're now in Syria, right? I don't know whether they're alive or dead but the rumor is, one of them is dead, another rumor out there on social media is that they were shot in the air as they came to the ground.

MUDD: Yes.

COSTELLO: And now they're being held by Syrians. So --

MUDD: Yes.

(END)