Return to Transcripts main page

CNN NEWSROOM

Belgium on High Alert; 4 Arrests Linked to Paris Terror Attacks; Visa Waiver Program Security Gaps; Security Conference Tackles Terrorism Concerns; U.N. Security Council Says "Redouble" Efforts Against ISIS; Presidential Candidates Split on Refugee Issue; 1 Injured at Fire in Chicago's Hancock Ctr.. Aired 4-5p ET

Aired November 21, 2015 - 16:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[16:00:43] ANNOUNCER: This is CNN break news.

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening from Paris. I'm Poppy Harlow, where it is 10:00 in the evening. We are continuing our live coverage in the wake of the terror attack here in Paris.

An important update for you. This hour, heavily armed police and soldiers standing out over the Belgium capital of Brussels, amid serious fears that there could be a repeat of what we saw take place where I am, in Paris, last week. The government there in Brussels warning of a possible imminent threat placing the city under the country's highest terror alert at this hour. Officials acting fast to shut down the subways completely there. They are urging people to stay home, if they can.

And also developing, police making four arrests in connection to last week's attacks here in Paris that killed 130 people. Three of the arrests were in Turkey, including the man who allegedly scouted the targets in this city for those attacks. The fourth man was arrested in the Molenbeek neighborhood of Brussels and that's where police seized weapons from his home.

CNN senior international correspondent, Nima Elbagir, is in Brussels live for us this evening covering the heightened alert.

It was interesting, Nima, when this news broke a few hours ago, the fact that they said a specific and an imminent threat. To use those words means they must have very precise information. But are they telling us why?

NIMA ELBAGIR, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Absolutely. To use those kinds of words, given the sense of tension that has flooded many European capitals, not just Brussels, to feel such specific language and to feel the threat is so imminent that you can't share greater information because you're in the process of attempting to get ahead of it, that gives you a sense of what the Belgians are up against. They have really not been giving out any details. Some local media have been reporting that perhaps it's one or two men being sought, that there's a real concern about explosives.

What we've seen this evening is the police are fanning out through Brussels town center seems to be looking for something very specific, Poppy. They were flashing lights -- flash lights onto driver's faces. They were looking into cars. They clearly had someone or someones that they were looking for. So, there is very much a sense that this is targeted.

But at the same time, you're trying to balance the realities of life in a European capitol. This is Saturday night. It's very quiet. Most of the bars have either already closed or are completely empty. Some people have tried to go about their normal lives but most people are choosing to stay home, and not just in Brussels, but in other parts of Belgium, where the terror alert is at its normal level, people are telling us they're staying home tonight -- Poppy?

HARLOW: And, Nima, let's just speak about how Brussels is so critical in all of this. You have Brussels and the attackers in Paris orchestrated and planned part of the attack and got their weapons, it's believed, from Brussels. You have Belgium being the European with, per capita, the most citizens that have left to join the jihad. Why is it so vulnerable?

ELBAGIR: Well, that is absolutely the $50,000 question. That's the one we've been asking and many Belgians have been asking themselves. It's the toxic combination of where you found the nexus of this, in the Molenbeek town. It's a sleepy suburb of Brussels but it seems to combine radical Islamic thought, a penetration of radical Islamic thought, and these organized crime syndicates. You can get forged passports there, illegal weaponry. And then you also have incredibly porous borders throughout Europe, but specifically here in Brussels. Many of the local politicians we've been speaking with say we wanted a lot of these young men who went to Syria to be put on international alerts and the Belgium federal government just didn't act fast enough. And those are difficult questions that, once we're on the other side of this alert, the politicians in Belgium will have to start answering -- Poppy?

[16:05:00] HARLOW: They absolutely are.

Nima, thank you for that. We'll get back to you shortly, live in Brussels.

Also, the arrests I mentioned at the top of the hour in Turkey, our CNN senior international diplomatic editor, Nic Robertson, has more details on who the men are who were arrested, one who allegedly scouted the locations for the attacks in Paris.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: What we do know, Ahmed de Marne (ph), 26-year-old, a Belgian but of Moroccan descent, picked up by Turkish authorities in Antalya, a town where the G20 summit leaders were meeting barely a week ago. President Obama was there. He was meeting in a hotel with members Turkish authorities believe were a member of ISIS, believe they came from Turkey. Immediate indications that would be implicit to this was that perhaps on his way through Turkey, from Belgium through Turkey, on his way to Syria to essentially get beyond the clutches of European intelligence officials. He is believed to have been the man that scoped out the targets a week

ago. Because he is from Belgium, that he is of Moroccan descent, the Belgium authorities may have been looking for him, could have alerted Turkish authorities to watch out for him, to potentially crossing the border there. That would have triggered reason to track him down. Possibly, the Turkish authorities were watching their borders to follow these two ISIS suspects as they came into Turkey to follow where they were going. We also know that Moroccan intelligence officials have been incredibly helpful over the past week, helping the French track down the ringleader of the attacks, Abdelhamid Abaaoud, tracking him down. So it's possible here as well that Moroccan intelligence officials played a role in helping provide information about the movements of de Marne (ph), which helped lead to his arrest.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

Nic Robertson, thank you very much for that.

I want to bring in former CIA operative, CNN security and intelligence analyst, Bob Baer; also former FBI assistance director Tom Fuentes.

Bob, to you, and your take on Brussels issuing its highest level alert, even saying to people don't go to crowded places, don't go to the airport, what does it take for them to issue that alert?

BOB BAER, CNN SECURITY & INTELLIGENCE ANALYST: They have to have specific information. They have to really be prepared for an attack. There are people on the loose with weapons, explosives that are ready to hit. They don't go to a level four in Belgium without a good reason. Keep in mind, Poppy, this sort of violence or this sort to threat against a European capitals, I can't remember a time it was this bad. Palestinians in the '70s, Hezbollah, the 1980s, the Algerians in the '90s in Paris, but I have never seen a European capitol close down like Brussels. This is truly unprecedented.

HARLOW: Yeah, it is. It's extraordinary.

And, Tom, what's happened in Paris is you have the parliament that have almost unanimously voted, all most all 900 members of parliament voted this week to extend the state of emergency for three months. It gives the police here and intelligence agencies sweeping powers for search and seizure, preventative detention, things that you would not normally see play out here, you would not se play out in the United States without a lot of justification and warrants. Is that what's needed to get the intelligence or is that overboard, crossing the line when it comes to civil liberties?

TOM FUENTES, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: I think it might be overboard, Poppy. But I think Bob would agree with me that you can't turn on intelligence operations or turn them off like a water faucet. This takes a long time to develop the intelligence to understand what your problem is, who are the key people organizing these attacks. And as we've seen in Paris, the attack last week, they had no clue that those eight people were going to wage that attack. And when they did the search at the second apartment, where they had the big gun battle, 48 hours before that time, they had no clue they were there. So, that means there were at least 16 terrorists on the loose, ready to go, and they were going to do an attack within a week apart, and they had no idea. So, suddenly, deciding now that they're going to supplement all these years of not having a good intelligence base, I don't think they can do it.

HARLOW: Bob, something really disturbing that CNN has learned. A U.S. national security official telling us that at least one of the eight Paris attackers would have been able to travel to the United States under the visa waiver program now that it extends over 38 countries. Also, they say there's growing concern that maybe as many as three of the attackers could have gotten to the U.S. because they would have made it by the watch list and the screening system. How strong of a handle do you think the U.S. has on these guys?

[16:09:55] BAER: Well, the European people -- the jihadists on the list, those lists will show up in the United States, and we can keep them out. Before you visa waiver, you have to apply to get on an airplane and then FBI can take a look at that or Homeland Security. The problem is there's so many who are not on the European lists, that have European passports, could easily board a plane in Brussels, end up in New York, meet somebody, buy legally a gun, and launch a military-style assault. I think this is very, very disturbing this is going to come across the Atlantic. I don't like to be an alarmist, but, in fact, these people can freely travel to the United States and there's no way you can identify them all in advance.

HARLOW: On top of that, Tom, we heard the prime minister in France, Manuel Valls, saying this week, and this is a quote, he said, "We must not rule anything out." He went on to say, "We know and bear in mind that there's a risk of chemical or biological weapons."

So many people think of ISIS and certainly don't think of ISIS as becoming so advance with this technology to have the capacity to utilize biological and chemical weapons. Is that a risk?

FUENTES: It is a risk, because some of these aren't that sophisticated. If you're talking -- I heard Bob mention earlier today about chlorine and some of the agents. They're very simple. We're not talking about complex biological agents or radiological agents that are going to be introduced. Yes, they could use that kind of weaponry. If they ever get their hands on a nuclear device, they'll use it in a heartbeat and, look out, who knows what will happen.

HARLOW: Wow.

Bob Baer, thank you very much.

Tom Fuentes, thank you as well.

We have much more ahead tonight live from Paris in just a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:15:00] HARLOW: Welcome back. I'm Poppy Harlow, live for you in Paris. Europe's open borders gave the Paris attackers the ability to move

freely between Brussels and Paris and back and forth again to plan and carry out the attack here. But could the current visa waiver program that exists in the United States have allowed any of them to make it from Europe to the U.S. to carry out an attack without being stopped?

Our justice correspondent, Pamela Brown, has more.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

PAMELA BROWN, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Poppy, my colleague, Evan Perez, and I have been speaking to counterterrorism and law enforcement officials as well as intelligence officials, trying to figure out if any of the Paris attackers could have made it into the United States. And what we've learned is that one of them had a clean background and likely wouldn't have raised any red flags coming to the U.S. One official said at least three of them probably could have bypassed the watch list and other measures in place to prevent terrorists from coming to the U.S. We've learned that four of the terrorists in Paris were in the database, a broad terror database, and at least one of the four was in a no-fly list.

But the concern among law enforcement officials is that little was known about most of the attackers. And the concern is that, in light of that, some of them could have made it into the U.S. However, intelligence officials we've spoken to have said there are barriers in place, that there's other intelligence gathering means, including human sources, including interviews at the airports and at airports in the United States, to prevent people from making it in who shouldn't come in.

One of the focuses has been the visa waiver program, which allows citizens in 38 countries to come to the U.S. for up to 90 days. However, we're told by officials that if there's any security concern with someone, that either they would be denied entry or they would have to go through the State Department to get a visa.

But, because there are still gaps, which is reflected in the wake of the Paris attacks, we have learned that the Obama administration in the coming days will be releasing new information, new steps that will be taken to tighten security with the visa waiver program -- Poppy?

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HARLOW: Pamela Brown breaking that news for us. Thank you very much.

Possible responses to attacks by ISIS, the Syrian refugee crisis, and the political debate, the heated debate over it right now, being discussed right now at an intelligence conference in Halifax, Nova Scotia, this weekend, at the international security conference.

Joining me live from there is CNN global affairs analyst, David Rohde. He's also an investigative reporter for "Reuters." He was once himself held captive by the Taliban.

Thank you for being with me, David. I'm interested, what are they saying where you are about all of this?

DAVID ROHDE, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: To be honest, this was supposed to a very broad conference about China's rise, Russia's push in the Ukraine, but it's ISIS all the time. And there's a grim tone. There is not a sense the U.S. or the West or NATO has a sort of really effective strategy in place to counter ISIS at this point.

HARLOW: Are they saying what they think should be done? Any changes that can be made, especially here in Europe?

ROHDE: I just interviewed the chairman of the NATO military committee from the Czech Republic. He said there's already an immediate effort for NATO countries to share more intelligence with each other. They're talking about stepping up NATO training of forces in the region in Iraq, possibly in Jordan, in Tunisia as well, to try to counter ISIS on the ground there. But the board discussion here is that ISIS is more effective than the West in communications and the only way to really defeat the group and stop its spread -- also contain them on the ground -- but people keep talking about destroying the idea of ISIS, defeating the idea of ISIS. And ISIS is vastly more effective at using social media to multiply its strength. That it's not as strong militarily in reality but they use these videos and social media so well to give it this tremendous impact that's a lure to young people.

HARLOW: I think it's interesting, the new prime minister and leader in Canada has remained committed to welcoming thousands and thousands of refugees into Canada. And they will welcome many more before the end of the year to hit their goal. Is there anything being discussed about that, given the heated political debate, especially in the United States right now and Europe, about Syrian refugees in particular?

[16:19:51] ROHDE: There is a panel going on right now about this topic, and there's a real division between countries. There are some leaders in provinces in Canada that have called on Prime Minister Trudeau to not to take in these refugees. It's a promise by Canada to take 25,000 Syrian refugees.

I interviewed the new Canadian defense minister, Defense Minister John (ph), about this. He said the liberal party, the new government here, is determined to go forward with all 25,000 refugees. They feel they can screen them effectively so there aren't terrorists slipping in and they're intelligence services, their police are working with immigration authorities. And their main strategy is to make sure these are just families, families who have been living in refugee camps in Turkey and Jordan, and only allowing parents to come in with their children. But the defense minister said they can do this, they can screen them, and they are going to go forward with this plan.

HARLOW: They're going to go through with it. Obviously, you have a more porous border, if you will, between the United States and Canada.

ROHDE: Yes, and that's the question, but -- and this -- in our polarized politics, you have a division in the United States between predominantly Republican governors saying do not to bring them in. The new liberal government here in Canada is going to go forward. Time will tell. It's a really clever tactic by ISIS to -- what they have done by having just a handful come in, maybe to France, and it's created this fear. And I think it's a fear that helps them. One of the messages here is that the more this idea that there's discrimination against Muslims spreads in the Middle East, that helps ISIS recruiting. So it's a very difficult situation.

HARLOW: Right.

ROHDE: And Canada is going to take the risk and go ahead with this program.

HARLOW: And I think it's so important, David, in the middle of all the political back and forth to point out the facts in this, and the facts in this are that a number of the terrorists in attacks in Paris were European born and residents. You have one who posed, likely, as a Syrian refugee, with likely fake documents, coming in, but that's just one. Just important to keep the facts in context here with all the political back and forth.

David Rohde, thank you. I appreciate it very much. I'll let you get back to the security conference.

We'll take a quick break here, live from Paris. We're back in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:25:56] HARLOW: Welcome back to our continuing live coverage from Paris. I'm Poppy Harlow.

The most powerful man in France will soon ask the world for more help to go after and defeat ISIS. French President Francois Hollande has two major meetings next week. The first is with U.S. President Obama and the second is with Russia's President Vladimir Putin. Also, the U.N. Security Council unanimously adopting a resolution on Friday, offered by France, to gather international support for counterterrorism efforts, specifically aimed at ISIS. The resolution calls on member states to take all necessary measures in compliance with international law to, quote, "redouble and coordinate their efforts."

Let's talk about this, what it will really take to defeat ISIS. Lieutenant Colonel Rick Francona is with me, former U.S. military attache in Syria; and also former CIA operative, Bob Baer, also our intelligence and security analyst.

Gentlemen, I'd like you to listen to this. This is CNN's Fareed Zakaria asking Democratic president candidate, Hillary Clinton, if there were another terror attack, how she would respond to pressure to send U.S. ground troops into Syria.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HILLARY CLINTON, (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE & FORMER SECRETARY OF STATE: It would certainly grow, but I think it would be a mistake. Look, as I said, we should be sending more special operators, empowering our trainers in Iraq. We have a lot of work to do to be able to really decimate ISIS in Iraq and Syria. Injecting some a large contingent of American forces complicates that, in my opinion. Right now, we need to keep the pressure on the people on the ground.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: Now, she has, as you know, been calling for that no fly zone in Syria.

But Lieutenant Colonel Rick Francona, to you, is she right?

LT. COL. RICK FRANCONA, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Well, I think it would be a mistake to send a large U.S. ground force in there but that doesn't mean we don't send any. I agree to continue beefing up the Special Operations presence. Get some forward air controllers in there. But don't leave them at these headquarters. Get them out to the battalions, get them out there to fighters on the line, and let them control those air strike strikes. They can be much more effective. If we're going to drop the ordinance, let's make sure we're dropping it effectively. Let's drop some of it. A lot of it we're bringing back to base. As far as ground forces, let's do that down the line. Let's see if we can do more with the air power more effectively. Putting ground forces on the ground just creates a whole series of problems with the locales.

HARLOW: And I know it's a very hard thing for many in the American public to stomach and swallow after years and years of war in Afghanistan and Iraq.

But, Bob Baer, this war, ISIS's war is being waged far outside of Syria and Iraq. Look at what they did. They planned this coordinated attack in France in Syria, but then they orchestrated it in Belgium with cooperation in France.

BAER: Well, Poppy, I mean, I agree with you. This is just -- I think the situation is dire, to say the least. I'm not just talking about the tragedy of this, but the fact that the European Union is under this pressure. They're talking about closing borders. Consider if there were an attack in the United States. The political atmosphere would change so quickly that we do need to come up with a plan. Rick is right. We need forward air observers. We need better coordination. The bombing campaign alone is not working. But frankly, the --

(CROSSTALK)

HARLOW: You were saying this to me, Bob, weeks before -- you were saying this to me to weeks before the Paris attack. What needs to change given this attack?

BAER: I think the president has been badly briefed that we're containing the Islamic State. What he said on Friday, saying it was contained, it was a political disaster for him and the Democrats. [16:30:03] Clearly, they're not contained. They don't care whether

they hold on to Raqqa. They don't care whether they operate in Yemen or Mali or Libya or anywhere else. What they would like to do is bring down Saudi Arabia and put the capital in Mecca. That's really their plan.

But that's neither here nor there. We have to understand the sentiment of these people and the fact that there's implicit support from the Gulf countries, at least at a private level, as well as Turkey. I mean, we are not getting the full cooperation of our supposed allies until they come around and truly isolate the Islamic State, we're not there.

HARLOW: It's a great point, Bob, and I'm sorry to interrupt you.

It's a great point, Lieutenant Colonel Rick Francona. To you, Bob, it brings up Turkey, and we have these three major arrests in Turkey today. One of the men arrested suspected of coming here to Paris and scoping out the locations where they would execute this attack.

FRANCONA: And I think what we're seeing is a lot more cooperation in the law enforcement arena. The Turks move very quickly. Now, how did they know to go get this guy? I suspect that there was a lot of information gathered in the aftermath from, you know, the cell phones, computers, whatever they found in those apartments, that they were able to move on, they were able to arrest people in Belgium as well. So, that worked very well.

But getting together with our allies -- and Bob brings up a sticky point here, you know, the Turks aren't bombing ISIS. The Turks are bombing the Kurds. The Russians aren't bombing ISIS. They are bombing the anti-Assad elements in the opposition. If we're going to go after ISIS, we have to get together and decide that's what they're going to do. Right now, everybody is paying lip service to it.

HARLOW: Yes, that alliance that we're hearing more and more about, is it possible? Is it going to be possibly to really form a successful United States, French, and Russian alliance? Perhaps the China getting involved as well, one of their citizens being killed this week by ISIS. We'll watch.

Thank you very much, Bob Baer and Lieutenant Colonel Rick Francona.

We're back from Paris live in just a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:35:21] HARLOW: Republican presidential candidate, Donald Trump, once again ratcheted up his rhetoric on Muslims living in America, American Muslims. Trump had spent the past couple of days backing off of his response to a multiple reporter questions about the database of American-Muslims that he said would be a good idea.

But today at an event in Birmingham, Alabama, he said he wanted surveillance of Muslims. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: So, here's the story, just to set it clear: I want surveillance of these people. I want surveillance, if we have to, and I don't care.

I want -- are you ready for this, folks? Are you ready? Oh, they're going to make it such a big deal. They're going to make it so big. He said something so politically incorrect, that's why we're going to hell because we're so politically incorrect, such a big deal, such a big deal.

I want surveillance of certain mosques, OK? If that's OK. I want surveillance. And you know what, we've had it before and we'll have it again.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: Well, those comments from presidential candidate, frontrunner, Donald Trump about Muslims comes as he squares off about whether the United States should accept -- sounds off about whether the United States should accept Syrian refugees while ISIS poses a threat.

CNN's Sunlen Serfaty reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Very simply, we can't take them, folks. We can't take them.

SUNLEN SERFATY, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It's a debate roiling the Republican Party, how to handle the resettlement of Syrian refugees in the wake of the Paris attacks. Donald Trump drawing a hard line, refusing to take any option off the table to protect the U.S., including closing some mosques in the U.S., issuing Muslims special ID cards listing their religion and potentially creating a database to register and track all Muslims living in the U.S.

REPORTER: Should there be a database system that tracks the Muslims here in this country?

TRUMP: There should be a lot of systems beyond database. We should have a lot of systems. And, today, you can do it.

But right now, we have to have a border. We have to have strength. We have to have a wall. And we cannot let what's happening to this country happen --

REPORTER: Is that something your White House would like to implement?

TRUMP: Oh, I would certainly implement that.

SERFATY: The GOP front runner today tweeting that he didn't suggest a database, but still not dismissing the idea, as some of Trump's rivals have done. GOV. JOHN KASICH (R-OH), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Those who want to

divide and impose tests, religious tests where people go and register, we don't need division in America. We need to be united.

JEB BUSH (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: When you talk about interment, you talk about closing mosques, you talk about registering people -- and that's just wrong.

SERFATY: Even Ted Cruz in a rare break with Trump.

SEN. TED CRUZ (R-TX), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: First Amendment protects religious liberty and I spent the past several decades defending religious liberty of every American.

SERFATY: Ben Carson also saying that it sets a dangerous precedent to single out one group of people, instead, calling for a database for every person who enters the U.S.

BEN CARSON (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I want to everybody to have a data base. I want us to know about anybody who comes into this country.

SERFATY: That, after he raised eyebrows with an inflammatory analogy comparing some refugees to rabid dogs.

CARSON: If there's a rabid dog running around your neighborhood, you're probably not going to assume something good about that dog. It doesn't mean that you hate all dogs.

SERFATY: Cruz, meanwhile, has proposed to let Syrian Christians into the country, but not all Muslims.

CRUZ: There's no doubt we have to vet everyone coming in, but there's no indication of Muslims pretending to be Christians coming in the refugee wave.

SERFATY (on camera): There's some new polling out really tapping in to what the American voters feel about all of this. A new poll from "The Washington Post" and ABC News shows that a majority, 54 percent of voters believe that the U.S. should not be taking in Syrian refugees. And even more striking, only 13 percent are very confident that the U.S. will be able to identify terrorists among the refugees.

Sunlen Serfaty, CNN, Des Moines, Iowa.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HARLOW: Sunlen, thank you very much for that.

Let's talk more about this now with David Tafuri. He's an expert in vetting Middle Eastern refugees. He works with the United Nations on refugee crisis. He was at the State Department.

Thank you for being with me.

When we hear what some of the presidential candidates have said. We've seen, David, this week, 31 governors across the United States have said they will not accept Syrian refugees into their state or they don't want to, federal authorities who receive theirs.

But I want you to listen to Indiana's governor, Mike Pence.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[16:40:01] GOV. MIKE PENCE (R), INDIANA: I just determined as governor of the state of Indiana, it would be appropriate for us to suspend any further resettlement of Syrian refugees in the state of Indiana unless and until we can bring about the kind of changes that would give us the absolute assurance that no one being settled in our state was a threat to our people.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: So, then you have independent Senator Angus King of Maine who sits on the Intelligence Committee, David, and he came out this week and said it would quote be much harder for a terrorists to get in the country through a refugee program than as a tourist. Is that the case?

DAVID TAFURI, FORMER U.N. AND STATE DEPARTMENT OFFICIAL: That's absolutely the case. Angus King is right, and he knows because Maine has a lot of refugees, especially large population, given how small their population is. Very few refugees that have come through the refugee resettlement program have engaged in terrorist plots. Out of 785,000 since 9/11, only 10 or less have been arrested for terrorist plots. None have actually carried out terrorist plots.

There are much easier ways for terrorists to get here, like the visa waver program, like the tourist visas, which is how the 9/11 attackers mostly got here, 19 of them. None of those 19 came as refugees.

We also have to -- the politicians who are talking about this should not only look at the statistics, they have to look at other things that benefit the United States from these refugee programs. They support people who support democracy abroad. Think of the protesters in Iran who stood up to their government and many had to leave and some come over as refugees.

We're rewarding them for speaking out against their governments. Same is true of these Syrians and these Iraqis.

So, we cannot get rid of these programs wholesale. We have to look at the benefits, we have to tailor them to make sure we continue to do it in a way that keeps America secure but so far it has not been a problem.

HARLOW: All right. So, as I ask you this, let's throw on the screen what it takes right now in the United States to get in, admitted to this country, as a refugee. There's a number of screens you have to go through, but this legislation has passed in the House, you have 47 Democrats sign on to this legislation and a number of Republicans that would suspend the refugee program for Iraqis and Syrians right now and what they want to see in this legislation is for the head of the FBI, the head of Homeland Security, head of national intelligence to sign off individually on every Syrian refugee that comes into this country.

Is that practical?

TAFURI: Well, it's not only not practical, it's just not a good idea and it's a response to something that is not a problem. And so, it's just the wrong policy.

The people who supported that law in Congress are playing politics, they're not looking at how best to protect America and that's really unfortunate. The vetting process is working. We can see that from the statistics. And left out from what you put on screen is the fact that there's also a vetting process by the U.N.

So, the U.N. identifies people. The U.N. puts them through rigorous interviews, checks for information, checks for contradictory information and then recommends them for resettlement in a country like a U.S., and then puts them through another vetting process.

The vetting process is working and the politicians need to look at that.

HARLOW: All right. David Tafuri, thank you very much.

Coming up, I should note, in our next hour, I'll have Representative Hudson. He is the Republican congressman who sponsored the legislation that passed pretty overwhelmingly in the House of Representatives yesterday with bipartisan support. We'll ask him much more about that. That is coming up in the 5:00 Eastern hour.

Quick break, we're back live from Paris, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:47:40] HARLOW: One week since the Paris terror attacks, and there are images of hope and inspiration that have gone viral. A young doctor who helped save countless lives last Friday night took one of the most striking images and we were able to find him in Paris this week, and ask him why he took the picture and the message that he hopes it sends.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

HARLOW (voice-over): They say a picture is worth a thousand words. This one is worth countless.

(on camera): Have you ever seen anything like you saw on Friday night?

DR. POURYA PASHOOTAN, HOSPITAL SAINT-LOUIS: Never. Hopefully never.

HARLOW (voice-over): Dr. Pourya Pashootan was off duty when the shots rang out across Paris. He raced to the hospital.

PASHOOTAN: I went directly to the hospital where there was the most injured people.

HARLOW (on camera): How many people did you treat on Friday night?

PASHOOTAN: There was 27 person came to the hospital and we are not used to seeing this kind of injury here. Maybe in other, in other country, maybe in the USA, we can see this kind of thing, maybe people use guns -- here, not.

HARLOW: You're not used to treating gun shots?

PASHOOTAN: No, not so much. A few a year, but not tens of people coming in altogether in one place. There was many people we tried to help for. Each person, there was injury to the face, injury to the thorax, of the belly, some war scenes.

HARLOW: It was a war scene?

PASHOOTAN: Yes, it was exactly that. The most difficult thing was the context, to see the fear in the eyes of people who were coming. Most of them young people but it was everything. Everybody was there.

HARLOW: All different religion.

PASHOOTAN: All different religions, just everybody.

HARLOW: What was the message you were trying to send with the photograph?

PASHOOTAN: There was a big organization for everybody to save people. We came together to help people, it's our job.

HARLOW: We are all together?

PASHOOTAN: All together. Yes.

Everything was awful. The only thing that was incredible this night and quite nice was the mobilization of everybody.

HARLOW: Somehow with this photograph, you found the good.

PASHOOTAN: Right, in the middle of this tragedy, there was a little bit of hope. And we were there to show that. We'll be always there.

[16:50:01] HARLOW: You won't give up?

PASHOOTAN: Never. Never give up.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I'm Christine Romans in New York.

We're going to get back to our breaking news coverage in Paris in just a moment, but right now, I want to tell you about an urgent situation in the United States. Police telling CNN there is a fire in Chicago's John Hancock Tower. A

fire looks to be about on the 50th floor. This, of course, is the iconic sky scraper located on Michigan Avenue. The fire appears to be halfway up the tower. On the ground floor, you have a lot of retail space. You have condos and residential space until you get to the very top where there's a restaurant and observatory.

Joining me on the phone, our correspondent Ryan Young who's just arrived on the scene.

And we can see from these pictures, Ryan, you've got fire trucks, you've got ambulances and you have a fire in this building.

[16:55:00] What's the situation right now?

RYAN YOUNG, CNN CORRESPONDENT (via telephone): Let me describe the screen for you. Look,: they were getting ready to have a parade here in Chicago today and, in fact, most roads are being blocked up for that. Had to make a mile run to get here.

You can see fire trucks and police personnel just about everywhere for about five or six blocks over. And you know, the city blocks here are pretty huge. Right now, I would say more than 65 firefighters just on the ground. If you look up at the building, you don't see much but, of course, you saw the flames, everyone's talking about it on social media just in terms of the intense flames that was pouring from this building.

And when you talk about the idea of what's here -- there's a Best Buy downstairs, there's a restaurant, like a Cheese Cake Factory, all these tourists who were in town who obviously were nearby. A lot of people are taking pictures right now.

We've been told that a police officer was taken to the hospital for smoke inhalation. I'm standing by one of the exits right where there's a at least three ambulances waiting here. I'm waiting nearby just to see if anyone comes out.

But the scene seems pretty calm right now. Most people are watching and taking pictures. But, obviously, with all the intense flames from above, people wondering what's going on.

ROMANS: Wondering what's going on.

Ryan Young, thanks for that.

The Chicago Fire Department saying they're ventilating that unit; that they have that fire under control. But again, right there, downtown Chicago, streets closed off already for a parade, now closed off for all that activity. Law enforcement and fire activity there around Chicago's Hancock Center.

We'll go back live to Paris with Poppy Harlow right after this break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)