Return to Transcripts main page

NEW DAY

Paris Mastermind Killed In Raid. Aired 7:30-8a ET

Aired November 19, 2015 - 07:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: The video was obtained by dailymail.com. I want to warn you, there is no question that this is disturbing, but it's also important to remember what people were forced to deal with here in Paris. Take a look.

You can see glass windows shattering as the gunman starts firing from outside. People were running in to escape the bullets. Everyone diving out of the way and hiding behind walls desperately looking for cover.

The gunman showing no signings of mercy coming right up to the edge of the cafe, aiming at a woman defenseless on the ground, but in one of the more miraculous moments, either the gunman malfunctions or gunman misfires and the woman gets up and runs away from.

From another angle you can see two employees ducking behind the bar as bullets start flying. One managed to flee on a fleet of stairs as fear grips the cafe. Another helps a woman who had run inside after the siege began.

People were seen tossing chairs and tables out of the way. The glass and dust clouding the camera's view of the cafe, terror rocking the city of Paris, bringing a lively Friday night to deadly silence.

Let's bring in the deputy editor-in chief of "Paris Match" magazine, Regis Le Sommier, and chief international correspondent, Christiane Amanpour.

It doesn't matter how many times you cover situations like this. You see video like this, you live it. To see what those people went through, to see what the intentions of these men were, it's horrifying.

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: I mean, it is, and we all know this. We've been looking at this outside of that very cafe is the shrine with all of the flowers, with the candles, and the fact that, if I'm not mistaken, nobody there lost their life.

CUOMO: Right.

AMANPOUR: In that hail of bullets and gunfire and you can see how, you know, really intelligently people took cover. Behind the bar, go downstairs, upstairs. Right there is a pizzeria, it's not a chain. It's a beautiful little restaurant defying all these killers by staying open. According to the "Daily Mail," which is showing this video, one of the dead was somebody collecting his pizza outside --

CUOMO: Regis, we have information you're going to want to hear this coming in right now. Breaking news to CNN, authorities here in France are confirming that the man who planned the Friday attacks was taken out in the raid yesterday in Saint-Denis.

Again, breaking news coming into CNN, French authorities are reporting that they can confirm that the man who was suggested to have planned these attacks here in Paris was taken out in the operation in Saint- Denis. That the DNA revealed that he is among the remains in that apartment --

AMANPOUR: We're talking Abdelhamid Abaaoud, correct?

CUOMO: Yes. This was the actionable intelligence from cell phones found and surveillance. They knew his cousin had been there, a female terrorist who detonated a vest. Now they are confirming to CNN, that they believe this alleged planner, was taken out there, the significance?

REGIS LE SOMMIER, DEPUTY EDITOR-IN-CHIEF, "PARIS MATCH": That's really very good news. But my point of view, Abdelhamid Abaaoud is a huge part of the operation. Having studied it, from the first time he was in Syria. He moved up the hierarchy of ISIS very fast.

He's a simple guy from the suburbs. He doesn't have all the knowledge that it takes in my opinion to carry out such an operation. I believe he's a charismatic figure. He's probably able to bring up a team, but to plan all of this, I have little doubt.

AMANPOUR: Can we just drill down because I think this really is important and really fascinating, the idea of who he is. He's obviously not a top-level ISIS figure. He's not in the sort of executive committee of ISIS.

But he has had, obviously, success in this particular operation. From everything that we're reading about him he comes from a fairly middle class prosperous family that lives in the Molenbeek area of Belgium.

CUOMO: But he was also a street punk, in 2011, he was picked up for robbery. Not a high-level guy.

AMANPOUR: No, but here's the thing. This is interesting how they get radicalized. He apparently has a primary and secondary education in a private catholic school in the neighborhood. The family house, according to the "The New York Times," who has done a whole profile on him today, is right next to a police station. His father was a prosperous clothes manufacturer, when I say prosperous, relatively prosperous.

LE SOMMIER: He obviously had his moment of fame when he was in Syria. The thing is we got a time lapsed video from him that was taken from his cell phone in early 2014. In that set of videos, you could see him welcoming new recruits in Syria, young guys that were coming from France, and they were doing a brigade over there. They were Belgian and French together, which is interesting today because you see the connection between France and Belgium on the ground here.

[07:35:11] So these people have fought together. They are seasoned fighters. They have combat experience over there. But when it comes to the level of organizing an attack of that scope, I mean, it takes much more than, you know, being a fighter over there.

And my last point is that, if, you know, Abdelhamid Abaaoud is, you know -- you know, he's connected, that's right. He's a seasoned fighter, but he doesn't have the knowledge of all the things that you'd do. I think he's a poster child.

CUOMO: We're getting more information in right now from French authorities. This is coming from the prosecutor's office. They're saying that this man's body was found among the remains there riddled with bullets. They had to identify it through capillary attachments.

Obviously, that's forensics speak. But they believe they got him. Is it reasonable to assume there are bigger brains in the organization? Yes. But they really wanted him. They were slowing down about any idea he was in the apartment. They're saying we real think he's here, but they're being careful.

AMANPOUR: We heard 24 hours ago that the original assumption was that he was presumed dead. Then we stopped saying that because we didn't know. And now, the official who told us that yesterday was absolutely right. And just also to remember because it's important, this guy having had this kind of upbringing then did go into petty crime.

CUOMO: That's right.

AMANPOUR: Was radicalized, was a drug peddler, was friends with the two Abdeslam. You know, it's a typical profile of these people and he is among six of these attackers who went there --

CUOMO: I want the perspective and context, but I want to get all the reporting first. We have Nic Robertson at our Paris bureau. Nic, gives to us all at once, what do we know from the French prosecutors office?

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: Well, the French prosecutor is saying as you've been saying that he was identified by DNA. It appears a swab perhaps taken from inside of his mouth.

We also know from the prosecutor's office. I think this gives us a definitive precisely how he was killed. According to the prosecutor's office Abdelhamid Abaaoud's body was absolutely riddled, that's what they said, riddled with bullets.

So it does appear that the French security forces who went in had him clearly in their sights enough to take multiple shots at him to bring him down. We don't have further details why they -- why it was necessary to hit him with so many bullets at that time.

Was he approaching them? Did he have a weapon in his hand? Was he also wearing a suicide vest? None of that has been released by the prosecutor's office. But a definitive clarification that he died in that apartment in Saint-Denis in the early hours of yesterday morning -- Chris.

CUOMO: Nic, thank you very much. Stay with us. Jim Sciutto, if I can bring you in, national security correspondent, the idea is this, why did they use that force? Context, 5,000 rounds were used by authorities because they were greeted with an explosive vests, long guns, and obvious intentions to kill by the people in the apartment, yes?

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: The police tried to breach the front door initially with explosives, but the attackers inside had barricaded themselves in so they couldn't breach the door that gave the attackers time to set up a perimeter, and then have to turn this into a firefight.

The police threw 40 grenades in there. That's one reason why the identification took so long. Of course, they wanted to be certain with this. As Christiane said, they went in there believing he was in there and now it's confirmed that he was in there.

CUOMO: Regis, the assumption is this wasn't gratuitous, this was a real firefight that they had on their hands and this was a consequence?

LE SOMMIER: Yes, such a scope, and so many rounds of bullets were fired, and so many people were involved also in breaking that siege and taking this apartment. But you have to bear in mind that these people, like I said, when you go to Syria, I was in Syria ten days ago.

The government forces had taken over Al Nusra camp in the northern part of Homs. What I saw was Al Nusra fighters had dug trenches with sniper positions, all kind of mini bunkers, one every ten meters. These people have combat experience.

They're not -- it's not guerilla warfare that they're doing. They're raging war. They've been doing that for two, three years sometimes. So, when you come from an environment like that, and you find yourself in Saint-Denis holding a siege, it's a piece of cake, you know.

[07:40:11] You scare the people away. You know, you're able to stand to the police, no problem, and for quite a long time. It lasted seven hours to take them. So if they've been to Syria, they got combat, that's what we'll hear, the returnees.

You know, people that have combat experience, trained, you know, also, we know that ISIS is very good with snipers. So that could have been something that, you know, that was yesterday, with the number -- the material that they have, ISIS is really good with suicide bombers and snipers -- CUOMO: We know that they are good and we also know this with no

degree of conceit, they were not good enough. Now the headline is the man believed to have planned these attacks on Friday is dead. What is the significance of that, Christiane, both politically and in terms of the overall war?

AMANPOUR: Look, because his name has been out there for so long and kind of the red banner name, the most hated man in the world today, they got him, that is something incredibly significant. But obviously, this is the tip of the spear.

I mean, there is much more of this that six people, six Europeans went to Syria, and were able to come back. Even one of them apparently who had his passport confiscated. People who were on the radar -- some of them in were on the radar, two of the Abdeslam brothers were in prison environment.

All of these links fit the profile of these kinds of fighters. Every time we do this, even in the "Charlie Hebdo" attacks, they were the same kinds of links, the same kinds of profiles. This is a much bigger threat.

But the fact of the matter is, they are fighters, but they are not invincible. Even the rector of the Paris mosque said to me today, they have land that is why they have influence. We need to occupy that land and deny them that land because that's where they're planning the carnage that we see here.

SCIUTTO: They've been dedicating resources for months for stopping this flow both to and from Syria. U.S. counterterrorism officials have told me that sadly the Europeans are overwhelmed by numbers and lack of resources. But there are other things, I spoke to a senior French security source two days ago, he said that Turkey has been ambiguous. They've been an ambiguous partner --

LE SOMMIER: It's a big problem. Turkey is serving like Pakistan for the Taliban, you know, for ISIS.

CROSSTALK)

SCIUTTO: It's a powerful criticism to make, but you hear it from all sides. Here's the thing with so many things in this war, people have competing interests. Turkey would rather have the fighters go across the border in Syria. They're concerned about their own Kurdish insurgency. That's the thing. You know the west certainly wants to tackle this problem. Clearly, these attacks have shown us that they haven't been able to.

CUOMO: Final word on this that we keep hearing about the importance of taking this fight to Syria in terms of politics, but also just straight practicalities. As you're saying they go there to learn. They go to demonstrate allegiance, and they go for the pull of the brand of what ISIS is. That's why just having returned from Syria, you believe more than ever that it begins and ends there in terms of what happens with ISIS? LE SOMMIER: Definitely. And ISIS is not -- we're talking about multiple groups in Syria. They're all entrenched in their turf, you know. ISIS is part of them. You know, what I want to say is that ISIS, too, has faced a number of setbacks in Syria and Iraq with the capture of Sinjar recently.

The southern part has been cleared from a lot of ISIS element. So, they're military on the defensive right now. They haven't had many victories recently other than what I'd call soft targets. The Russian airplane and let's not forget Beirut.

They've decided to go, you know, attacking soft targets. Is it because they didn't have the victories? Is it because the level of intensity of the campaign, the aerial campaign against them is starting to bear fruit?

CUOMO: Well, we'll see. Let's leave this here for now. We want to take a quick break and remind you of this major headline. We'll be right back on word to CNN that the man who planned the attacks here in Paris Friday is dead. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[07:48:47]

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: And we do have breaking news for you at this hour. The so-called mastermind behind the Paris terror attacks killed in yesterday's raid in a Paris suburb. That's what French authorities are now confirming to CNN.

We want to bring in independent Senator Angus King. He's the member of both the Intelligence Committee and the Armed Services Committee. He received a classified briefing about threats to the homeland last night.

Senator, thanks so much for being here. I know you've been listening to our breaking news in the past few minutes that the so-called mastermind was killed. Did you know about that? Were you briefed about that last night?

SENATOR ANGUS KING (I), ARMED SERVICES COMMITTEE: No, that word didn't come until very early this morning. That wasn't part of the briefing, but it's good news. The best way to kill a snake is at the head and this is one place to have started. I don't think we're out of the woods by any means, but I think this is good news to have found this guy that planned this attack and has planned other attacks.

I think it's important to realize, he had a Belgian passport. He's a European citizen and that gets into the question of how do we protect the homeland? I'm sure we'll have a few moments to talk about that in this conversation.

CAMEROTA: We will. We will. But back to this guy for a second, what does that tell us the fact that he was in Paris? We never see these so-called masterminds going to the scene of the crime? [07:50:05] KING: Well, I think one of the things that tell us is that the security situation in Europe is not good. Your reporter a few minutes ago pointed out that they are just overwhelmed, that the numbers are such that they are overwhelmed.

But even before this great wave of Syrian refugees, I'm not sure that there were adequate controls. You know, something we have to understand about Europe, once you're in the zone, in the European zone, there are no passports. There are no border checks you can essentially drive from Turkey to Norway.

And so you mentioned Turkey, that's one of the problems is the Turks have really been sort of trying to have it both ways in this and they are going to have to step up, but I think there are some serious security issues in Europe, which in turn make me think that we've got to really think hard about things like the visa waiver program that allows people from Europe to come here with a visa.

CAMEROTA: And I do want to talk about that in one second, but first, back to that briefing that you got last night, as a result of what you heard last night, how do you assess the terror threat here in the U.S. now given the new video that ISIS has released saying they are targeting New York City and Washington, D.C.?

KING: Well, I can't reveal the details of the briefing because it was classified, but I can say there's no specific actionable intelligence about an attack in New York or Washington or Los Angeles or anyplace else.

There's kind of a free form we're going to attack in the U.S., but we have to take that seriously. That's what we learned in the summer of 2001. There were reports about Osama Bin Laden determined to attack in the U.S., lo and behold they did it on September 11.

So there's no specific intelligence about a specific threat. Clearly, based upon Paris and based upon those kinds of threats, we've got to take it seriously.

CAMEROTA: OK, now, to the visa waiver program. Today, your colleague, Senator Dianne Feinstein plans to introduce legislation that she says would be much more effective than what you've heard from some on the other side of the aisle, including Speaker Paul Ryan about freezing the Syrian refugee program.

She says it's the visa waiver program that actually poses the biggest threat. Let's say you're in Paris, you can go to Syria. You can come back to Paris, and with the visa program, you can travel and get into the United States pretty easily.

Let me play for you what she says is her motivation.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SENATOR DIANNE FEINSTEIN (D), CALIFORNIA: Let's say France has had 2,000 people leave to go and fight. They're a visa waiver country, so the people come back to France and then they come into the United States. So, the bill we would propose would strictly limit that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: OK, Senator, what's your thoughts?

KING: I think that's a good idea. I think she's absolutely right. It's important to understand how the visa program works. It was set up years ago to just ease travel between -- between countries that signed on to various agreements and most of those countries are in Western Europe.

But now, we see this threat that we have. And as she points out -- now, I should point out if somebody is on a terrorist watch list or is on one of these lists that is maintained by the FBI or our intelligence agencies, they still would be picked up. They couldn't fly under the visa waiver program.

But if they have no record, then they could. So, I think what she and Senator Flake are proposing really does make sense. I think frankly, that's a greater vulnerability than the issue of the Syrian refugees who have to go through an 18-month to two-year vetting process, very few get through it.

Most are women and children and elderly people so let's focus the attention where the greatest threat is.

CAMEROTA: Senator, about those terror watch list, can you tell us how many of these eight or nine Paris attackers were on a watch list or no-fly list or were known to U.S. authorities?

KING: I can't give you an exact number, but the answer is most of them. Most of them were on some watch list in some way, shape or form. I think it is also important to point out that it appears now that the majority in fact. It appears all but one did have European passports.

The one who may have been infiltrated into the Syrian refugee stream had a false passport. We don't even know if he in fact came in that way. I think we have to focus on the people with European passports.

CAMEROTA: Isn't it safe to say that if they were on terror watch lists, those watch lists aren't working?

KING: Well, they were on our terror watch list and it gets back to what I said about the adequacy of the security in Europe. I think they have some really serious problems. And I'm sure right now in Paris and Brussels and London and Berlin, they are having some real soul-searching about the security situation in Europe because again, the guy they killed today had a Belgian passport.

[07:55:05] He was a Belgian citizen. So they have got their own house to really thoroughly clean up I think, but we've got to protect ourselves. And I think the way to do it is measures like Senator Feinstein's bill.

CAMEROTA: OK, Senator Angus King, thanks so much for being on NEW DAY with all the information. Nice to see you. We will have much more on our breaking news just out this hour. The man behind those terrorist acts in Paris is dead. We will have much more on how this happened right after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CUOMO: We want to welcome our viewers in the United States and around the world. This is NEW DAY. Alisyn and Michaela are in New York. I am in Paris and we have major breaking news.

The master mind -- so called, he's really just a planner. But he was important here in Paris. The man who planned the attacks last Friday confirmed as dead. His body found after this intense raid in Saint- Denis Wednesday morning.

We have the story and the rest of the war covered against ISIS only the way CNN can. Let's begin with CNN international diplomatic editor, Nic Robertsen. This news just coming in from the French prosecutor, lay it out for us -- Nic.