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Recovered Cell Phone Led to Apartment Raid; Interview with Republican Congresswoman Martha McSally of Arizona. Aired 9-9:30a ET

Aired November 18, 2015 - 09:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[09:00:01] ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Take a look at this.

Gunshot, explosions thundered through the power suburb of Saint-Denis as police launched a massive siege on suspected terrorists at multiple locations. Seven suspects now in custody. Two people are killed amidst all that gunfire. Among the dead, a woman who authorities say detonated a suicide device as authorities closed in. Several police officers were wounded. A police dog was killed in the raid.

Sources tell us the raid was just in the nick of time. They say this group was ready to attack and could have launched a second wave of terror on the city at any moment. The alleged target this time was a business district in Paris. Another chilling twist. The target of the raid police believe -- and this is the big news that we've learned just in the last several hours. Police believe the suspected ringleader of Friday's horrific attacks was actually hiding here in Paris. If you had talked to authorities yesterday they would have said that he was most likely still in Syria. Now they believe he may be in Paris. And he was a target of this raid.

At this moment it is not yet clear, Abdelhamid Abaaoud, is among those killed or captured. France's president says that a state of emergency blankets his nation.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PRES. FRANCOIS HOLLANDE, FRANCE (Through Translator): These actions confirmed to us once again that we are at war. A war against terrorism, which itself has decided to bring war to us.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: And in the Paris suburb of Saint-Denis this morning, French time, it certainly did sound like war.

CNN correspondents and analysts from around the world have converged on Paris and panned out across the city. And correspondents in belgium also which has been the nexus of so much of the terror activity that we have seen here over the last several days.

I want to begin in Saint-Denis, the suburb where three raids have unfolded in recent hours. That is where we find our senior international correspondent Clarissa Ward.

Clarissa, let's go back for viewers who were just joining us. Let's explain what you have witnessed and heard over the last, say, 12 or so hours.

CLARISSA WARD, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Anderson. Well, we are here just above the scene where those raids took place targeting two different apartment buildings. If we pan down here you can see there is still -- the road is completely blocked off. They have pushed journalists back on both ends. And that's because this was the scene of some heavy gunfire and explosions just about 11 hours ago. The resident of this apartment where we are currently told us that the explosions started about 4:30 in the morning.

He said it started off with gunfire. He heard also grenades and then he said at about 7:30 a.m. local time he heard a very explosion. It's believed that that possibly could have been this female ho has been identified as one of the group who is believed to have blown herself up. Then later on the situation continued, things moved to a church on the other end of the street. We saw a large group of police. They were banging down that door, Anderson. Obviously desperately trying to get into that church.

They then poured into the church, spent some time in there. Came out some time later. It didn't appear that they found anything inside the church but what it gives you a sense of is just how high -- on how high alert police here are. We heard that as well as police, there was a military presence here earlier. The road was completely blocked off. And what this resident told us was so eerie, was that you could hear all these gunfire, you could hear these explosions, you could hear grenades going off.

But you didn't have a lot of people on the ground. You didn't have police telling people what was going on. The street he said actually felt pretty empty in the beginning. Police waving around their guns a little bit understandably telling people who are poking their heads outside to get back in.

And you know, Anderson, people who live here in Paris are not used to this. They haven't experienced anything like this before. This man told me on (INAUDIBLE), we have never seen anything like this. He described it as sounding like a war zone. Now we do know that at least two were killed. At least seven people arrested. But no clues yet as to who was arrested and whether they are any closer to finding the alleged ringleader of Friday's Paris attacks, Abdelhamid Abaaoud -- Anderson.

[09:05:12] COOPER: Clarissa, the idea that this guy, this so-called ringleader or planner of Friday's attacks could actually be in France is really startling. I mean, we know according to authorities that previously he was in Syria. He had been involved in previous attempts. There was the attempt on the train that was thwarted by several American military personnel who subdued the attacker. But the idea that he would have been able to go from Syria and reenter France is extraordinary.

WARD: It is. And what you're realizing here is just how difficult it is to keep track of these guys. To keep track of their movements. We were hearing that as recently as a month ago French and coalition forces were targeting this man with air raids inside Syria. Now it appears he may be here in central Paris. That is of course a startling development if it is true. And it really highlights the difficulty of following up on all these different guys when they're able to move within the European Union, open borders.

They can move from country to country. We know that before Abaaoud has gone as far as faking his own death to family to try to escape detection, to try to fly under the radar. So it's still a very fluid situation here. And to be frank, Anderson, Parisians feeling very much on edge. They are no closer to knowing whether this dangerous terrorist is here in their own city or even still possibly back in Syria. So it's an unfolding and fluid situation -- Anderson.

COOPER: That is fluid to say the least. Clarissa Ward, we'll continue to check in with you.

There are so many moving parts to the investigations -- to these investigations which are going on. We've seen hundreds of raids over the last several days.

Joining me now to talk about all this, CNN chief national security correspondent Jim Sciutto. He's joining us here. We're also joined by CNN terrorism analyst Paul Cruickshank,

You know, I think what's so concerning for so many here in Paris is that for the last several days the focus really has been on Belgium. There's been so much belief that the so-called eighth terrorist, the man believed to have been driving one of the vehicles during the attacks on the restaurants here on Friday night had gone back to Belgium but now it really -- the raids this morning here in Paris for French citizens, it really brings it all back home.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Really, and just for viewers back home, it is an hour and a half away by train. It's like going from Washington to New York. And clearly these attackers were moving back and forth from Belgium to France frequently. Perhaps had a staging area but this is where they carried out their attacks.

So many things significant about these raids in the last several hours. One is that we could easily talking this morning about a second rampage in Paris. Instead we're talking about what appears to be a successful and extremely urgent operation just in time as police described it. And I'm told that it is based on intelligence that they gathered just in the last couple of days. Key intercepted communications, phone calls, and we know that they found the phones of several of the attackers from Friday in and around their bodies there.

So that's key. And I think if you can find something good out of this, is that there was tremendously fast, tremendously good police work to stop this and act so quickly. Because when you look at the people who are inside this apartment, they had many of the tools that the attackers on Friday had. You have -- certainly explosives, possibly an explosive vest, you had automatic weapons. And the police view it, they were prepared to use them to carry out another attack.

COOPER: Authorities here in France are saying that the focus of what this group was planning would have been the business district here in Paris. A time which during the weekend would not have been busy. But on a day like today where things are sort of returning to normal, where businesses at least are open, there would have been a lot of people.

SCIUTTO: That's right. You and I have seen this around Paris. This is still a city that is alive and operating. There are crowds here in Place de la Republique. There's traffic and the street stores open, businesses open. So the way this group acts they go after soft targets. Really anywhere they can find people they will attack.

And just one more point about significance that you referenced. The idea that the ringleader would have been here in France gets to this point we've talked from the beginning on these attacks. That to carry out such a broad expansive, interconnected international plot under the noses of French and Western intelligence despite all the resources they are throwing at this to stop these guys before they can act, including the idea that someone known both to French and U.S. intelligence could move back and forth from Syria to France is remarkable.

COOPER: That's right.

SCIUTTO: And worrisome.

COOPER: Also if -- I mean, we were hearing months ago that this man was the target of airstrikes inside Syria itself. If that was true, then how is it possible that he reentered France?

SCIUTTO: Well --

[09:10:07] COOPER: I mean, that is a huge question. Because he has been on the radar. It's not as if he could slip in easily. He's a supposedly been on the radar of French intelligence, Belgian -- he's a Belgian national is what we know. He's in his late 20s. He's well known to intelligence communities here. Well known obviously to U.S. intelligence as well. He's bragged publicly in ISIS publications about attacks.

SCIUTTO: And French security sources have told me that they believe he has moved back and forth a number of times in recent months from Syria to Belgium and back. And they connect him to several plots that have taken place. A failed plot in January to kill policemen in Belgium.

You remember this train attack where those Americans, those brave Americans stopped the attacker. They believe he has a connection to them as well.

COOPER: Right. That was a train from Belgium to France.

SCIUTTO: Interestingly enough.

COOPER: Right.

SCIUTTO: You know, gets right back to that corridor in effect of terror from Belgium to here in France. The thing is, it is surprisingly easy, too easy to still get from Syria to Europe. And, for instance, I was speaking to French security officials who were saying that still Turkey isn't doing enough to stop that refugee flow but it's not one country because you have so many countries involved here. You have security services here in France overwhelmed. You have U.S. -- we now know that the U.S. was aware of several of these plotters as well. And they are watching, they're doing their best to watch and stop them from moving.

COOPER: I want to bring in Paul Cruickshank.

Paul, I mean, this latest raid, what do you make of it? And again, I just think it's extraordinary what Jim is saying the idea that this man so wanted by authorities, wanted in Belgium as well, could possibly be here in France?

PAUL CRUICKSHANK, CNN TERRORISM ANALYST: Well, it's extraordinary, Anderson. And this was an extraordinary raid this morning as well. It was, you know, a huge, sort of, fire fight. They had to use a lot of fire power to go in and the concerns obviously that the group inside were preparing some kind of second wave attack here in Paris. You have that first major attack on Friday which shocked the world. But now the world's media has assembled in Paris.

And I think the plan was probably going to be to launch a second wave attack. Somewhere here perhaps in the business district when the world's media were here congregated for sort of maximum effect. And I think there is also concern that there could still be other plotters still at large. I don't think many of us expected there to be two cells. And certainly, you know, given the fact that there are now two cells, two different groups operating, there could be a third. So they'll be trying to get a handle on all of that, Anderson.

COOPER: And Jim Sciutto, again, there were the raids three locations, two apartments that were on the same street and also the church on that street. And it does beg the question, what else is out there? What is the next shooting pod?

SCIUTTO: They have been very clear, French authorities, that they believe there are more either attackers or supporters out there. They --

COOPER: Right. Let's just quickly review who they are looking for now. Because there's this eighth terror suspect.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

COOPER: It's confusing how many people there are. There is this person, this ringleader, Abdelhamid --

SCIUTTO: Well, the ringleader, you know --

(CROSSTALK)

COOPER: Abdelhamid Abaaoud who they had hoped was at this location today. We don't know for sure whether or not. They've taken seven people into custody. There are two people were killed as well in the raids this morning. But from Friday night there were eight terrorists involved say authorities. Seven of them are dead, were killed Friday night. One of them, though, still believe out there. There was an international manhunt, international arrest warrant out for him. It was believed that he had gone back to belgium but again that is up in the air.

SCIUTTO: Well, let's do the numbers. Several attackers killed on Friday. I believe there was an eighth attacker. They've effectively identified him as Saleh Abdeslam. One of the brothers. They put out an international arrest warrant for him yesterday. French authorities said we're looking for another person believed involved in the plot. And the source for that may be this video that we saw, one of the cars that took the attackers to one of the locations, Le Petit, the restaurant, caught on someone's video. A witness' video. They see a third person in that car. So they're looking for that third person.

COOPER: And that's a new piece of information. Previously they had only been talking about a eighth --

SCIUTTO: Exactly.

COOPER: An eighth suspect involved in Friday's attacks but because of that video --

SCIUTTO: It goes to nine.

COOPER: -- now there is a ninth.

SCIUTTO: And that's nine just from Friday's attacks. Now today you have seven arrests and two dead people. So there were clearly others, a whole entire cell planning an attack. And in addition to that, the thoughts about this ringleader, where is he? Is he in belgium? Rather in France? They had enough information to suspect that he was in one of those apartments this morning.

So the fact is, we don't know. And I don't think it would be going out on a limb to say that French security services don't know exactly how many people are still out there.

COOPER: And, obviously, that is a huge concern. And again, it will be interesting to see if they're able to get information from the seven people they now have in custody. What sort of information they have. And what if any role they had in Friday's attack.

Jim Sciutto, thank you for your reporting. Paul Cruickshank as well.

There is so much to come in this next hour.

Is the Obama White House doing enough to prevent attacks on U.S. soil? We'll look at that. One Arizona congresswoman and Air Force veteran says it's time for the administration to step up. She joins me, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: Well, the dramatic raid on Saint-Denis this morning which is a suburb of Paris are kind of around the area where Stade de France with the suicide attacks took place on Friday night. It was sparked apparently by information found on some cell phones left behind after Friday's attacks.

[09:20:02] Now, investigators are in a race to uncover the details left without a trace masked by encrypted app.

CNN justice reporter Evan Perez is following that part of story from Washington.

Evan, do we know for a fact that they were using encrypted apps or is that just a general concern?

EVAN PEREZ, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, we don't know, Anderson. We don't know whether they were using encrypted apps for this operation. We do know that they were practicing extraordinary operational security. We know that there was very little electronic trace left behind by these attackers.

And intelligence and counterterrorism officials know also that people associated with this cell, people associated with Abaaoud who you've been talking about a lot this hour, have practiced a lot of operational security in carrying out some of their plots. For instance, they throw away cell phones. They change them out sometimes up to five times a month. They change cars frequently. They check their car for listening devices, for instance, to make sure intelligence is not listening. And they use a lot of fake documentation papers.

So, they know all of this. The U.S. investigators and French investigators know all of this. However, the finding of these cell phones, which occurred after these attacks is possibly one of the biggest breaks that they have had. Perhaps it was a mistake. Perhaps it was a mistake not destroying those cell phones. We don't know.

Because we do know at least on some of these cell phones they have found encrypted apps. Now, whether they used them in this attack we don't know yet. We know they have used them in the past. And so, that's one reason -- that explains to officials why there is so little of an electronic trace.

The other thing that's important about the cell phones is that at least one of them was found with a message. And it read something to the effect of, "OK, we're ready." It is believed that message was sent before these attacks began.

And it perhaps was the coordination message. The message that said launch these coordinated simultaneous attacks that occurred on Friday night in Paris.

COOPER: So, just very briefly, Evan, do we know how many cell phones were found? Exactly where they were found? And do we know who that message was sent by? I believe it was one of the Bataclan attackers but who it was sent too?

PEREZ: We don't know. We don't know, Anderson, where exactly they were found. We know they tried to discard some phones but the police made sure that they looked through garbage cans and everything at those scenes to make sure they could capture everything.

And police have done a lot of work, as you said they are racing against time. They are trying to figure out who these people were in contact with, where they have been. You know, they can find some location information on some of these cellphones, and if they made any mistakes, that is something they want to capitalize on, Anderson.

COOPER: But -- sorry to keep hitting this point. But do we know who the -- that message we're starting, we're beginning was sent to, or what location it was sent to?

My question is, really, was it the address that was raided today? Or was it one of the apartment that was rented previously that we know about or something else, or do we not know?

PEREZ: We don't know. We really don't know. We don't know who sent the message --

COOPER: OK, that's fine.

PEREZ: -- which one of these attackers received the message, and whether it had anything to do with these raids. We do know Anderson that some of these investigations that have occurred because of this cell phones did drive this raid and some of the other raids that have been happening. There is a lot of information that is flowing back from these cell phones.

COOPER: All right. Evan Perez, I appreciate your reporting.

I always think in a situation like this, I always think -- in a situation like this, it is as important to talk about what we know as also to talk about what we don't know because it can be very confusing. There's a lot of details and a lot of importance is in the details. On Capitol Hill today, the Obama administration's strategy on terror is going to come up some heavy scrutiny as members of the House Homeland Security and Foreign Affairs Committee gather for a joint hearing, the focus rise of radicalism in the United States.

With me now is Republican Congresswoman Martha McSally of Arizona, member of the House Homeland Security Committee.

Good morning, Congresswoman. Appreciate you being with us. You say it is time for the White House to step up. Specifically what do you mean by step up?

REP. MARTHA MCSALLY (R), ARIZONA: Well, Anderson, we are facing a generational conflict with Islamist extremism. And we've seen obviously a game-changing dynamic that now most people are woken up to but we've been following for the last year or year and a half since the caliphate was declared. With the attacks in Paris and with the takedown of the Russian airliner, again, most people have woken up. It seems, except for our administration who just wants to sort of doubling down on his strategy.

So, they need to step up in many ways. The first is our military effort --

COOPER: So, what do you want to have happened?

MCSALLY: -- in Iraq and Syria.

I mean, if you look at it, we've been averaging about 15 strike sorties a day since last August. In comparison in Desert Storm, we had over a thousand strike sorties day.

[09:25:01] And Iraqi Freedom, there was about 800 sorties a day.

We have not unleashed American air power to be able to rain down on this caliphate. And they have declared themselves as a state. We need to treat them like a state. Take out their vulnerabilities. Take out their command and control. Take out their logistics. Take out their --

COOPER: Let me ask you about that, Congresswoman. Let me ask you about that.

Do you believe that the U.S. military doesn't want to hit targets? I mean -- I'm assuming that military officials who are in charge of this would say, well, if they are bombing targets that you know about, they would be more than happy to hit them.

It seems like they are hitting multiple targets over and over again, even targets that have already been hit because there are frankly not that many targets, given the nature. It is a lot different than it was during desert storm obviously the nature of ISIS.

MCSALLY: We have so many opportunities, Anderson, from the very beginning. The rules of engagement that have been put on our pilots are so restrictive when it comes to pilot identification and then collateral damage. The laws of conflict are very clear. We don't target civilians. But if we have a legitimate military target, we do everything we can to limit civilian casualties.

But we have rules of engagements that are civilian casualty avoidance so high that we have our pilots coming back with their bombs as opposed to hitting legitimate targets, which then allows ISIS to continue to rain terror on tens of the thousands of the civilians. That doesn't make any sense.

We just recently started striking the fuel trucks with the A-10 Warthogs, the plane that I flew. But even then, it took us this long to start doing that and we're dropping leaflets to make sure that the drivers can get away. Well, we're allowing the fuel to continue to finance this terror operation and the caliphate over the last 17 months.

So, look, this is just an example where if we got to look at achieving the effects we want militarily, we have to identify the target, constrain and take out and destroy the command and control, their logistics, their financing capability. But it's not just a military operation. Look, their headquarters is in Iraq and Syria. But the fact they feel

they have taken on American air power and they are winning is allowing them continue to recruit in a very sophisticated social media campaign. There's over 200,000 estimated positive tweets on social media a day from ISIS and they are inspiring and directing individuals to either travel to Iraq and Syria.

We know of 30,000 individuals from a hundred countries that we know of that have traveled over there to join the caliphate, train and then potentially come back, 4,500 from western countries. These are waiver countries, those that could just come into America, and 250 Americans that we know.

But the more immediate threat is really inspiring those in place, in their own countries to get radicalized. Directing them via dark space and telling them to commit violence right where they are. So, this is a multi faceted threat and the Obama administration is not taking it as seriously and is not going after it as the generational conflict it is.

COOPER: Republican Congresswoman Martha McSally, appreciate you being with us. Thank you very much.

Obviously, a lot happening on Capitol Hill today.

Still to come, an incredibly tense moment as one of our CNN colleague was live on the air as explosions from the terror raid can be heard behind her.

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