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LEGAL VIEW WITH ASHLEIGH BANFIELD

'Jihadi John' Dead; ISIS Kicked Out of Sinjar; Carson on Chinese Comments in Debate; Trump on ISIS. Aired 12-12:30p ET

Aired November 13, 2015 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[12:00:00] ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: Today. One of those victories has a wide impact affecting everything happening in Iraq right now. And the other is just about one man, but a very sadistic man. Still not confirmed, but senior Pentagon officials say they are, quote, "reasonably certain" that Jihadi John is a dead man officially.

Let's start with him. He's the English-speaking ISIS executioner with a lot of blood on his hands. Jihadi John has killed hostages in the name of ISIS, sometimes beheading them on camera and posting those videos on the Internet. Last night, the U.S. military sent drones to kill Jihadi John, and they are still doing battlefield analysis to see whether or not that mission was accomplished.

Our Barbara Starr is live at the Pentagon. And, Barbara, you were just at a press briefing there. What did you learn?

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, Ashleigh, we are learning indeed that the U.S. military has growing confidence, it appears, that they did get Jihadi John. It was several days ago when they picked up his trail and began to follow him very closely with drones and overhead surveillance. By Wednesday, they were fairly sure they had him in their eyesight. And then, yesterday, a drone flying over Raqqa, Syria, tracking him, watching as he exited a building, got into the vehicle and they took the shot.

Listen to what the U.S. military spokesman in Baghdad had to say just a minute ago.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

COL. STEVEN WARREN, U.S. ARMY: We are reasonably certain that we killed the target that we intended to kill, which is Jihadi John.

And this guy was a human animal, and killing him is probably making the world a little bit better place.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

STARR: So what they are doing now is looking at any chatter they can find, social media postings, intercepts, any type of communication from ISIS that might be some sort of announcement or posting by the group about Jihadi John. They're pretty confident they got the guy they were going after, but they want to have absolute certainty, and they're looking at this intelligence as it comes in to see if they can close the books on this, Ashleigh. BANFIELD: Our Barbara Starr reporting live for us. Thank you for that.

Now, we mentioned that there was also a very big picture victory that the American-led coalition is claiming over ISIS today, and it is this.

(VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: These are some of the first images coming in to basically show a beat uptown in northern Iraq where just a year ago ISIS extremists had marched in, slaughtering people who wouldn't join them, and sending tens of thousands of others running for their lives or just enslaving the others. ISIS, however, is no longer in control here, and that is official as of today. Kurdish forces surrounded this town, Sinjar. And in the past few hours, they took it back. And our Nick Paton Walsh is there.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

NICK PATON WALSH, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Kurdish leader Masu Bazani (ph) may have declared Sinjar behind me as liberated, but that isn't the full picture. There are still pockets of ISIS resistance. One of them visible potentially from that little bit of black smoke you may see on the horizon behind me. That is from an explosion in the last 10 minutes. But also, too, we've come back from being down on the ground there with the Peshmerga. When we were going between the houses, a bullet went over our heads. The Peshmerga responded with a lot of fire power. They said there was an ISIS sniper inside one of those buildings. And, in fact, after the intensity of their gunfire and response, they still hadn't seemed (ph) caught that individual, but one of their number, they say about one of the two or three they had injured, that injured person was carried out to a nearby vehicle. So, still, volatile in there.

A Swedish volunteer we spoke to, Tony (ph) (INAUDIBLE) his name, fighting alongside the Peshmerga out of choice, he said, in fact, there were tunnels under some of the road, and at one point barrels full of explosives laid in as a booby trap. Every road you look at seems to be mined to some description. Every building you look at has been severely damaged by the airstrikes, reduced to rubble, some of them.

Rebuilding really isn't much of a choice here. You've got to start from scratch in so many of these house, once, in fact, you've managed to clear out the remaining pockets of Daesh resistance here. But the optimistic side of this, it is true, this in barely over 24 hours, has been retaken by large numbers of Peshmerga, perhaps because ISIS simply didn't have the numbers to fight for it or didn't wanted the fight or preferred booby traps to do the fighting for them. And because, also, of the coalition in the skies who quite clearly, thanked by Mr. Masu Bazani, for their support, have changed the dynamic of this fight, making it possible for Sinjar now to be back in the hands of those who are not ISIS, the Kurds and potentially Sunni Yazidi families who once lived there and suffered terrible persecution at the hands of ISIS. [12:05:03] A swift victory. Many hoping it heralds further swift victories, particularly Mosul way further down that road here, or even potentially ISIS' self-declared capital of the caliphate, Raqqa, down there.

Nick Paton Walsh, CNN, just outside Sinjar.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BANFIELD: Great work from our Nick Paton Walsh and his crew.

For his part the president, President Obama, in a television interview today, described ISIS as contained but not yet decapitated.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: What is true is, is that from the start, our goal has been first to contain. And we have contained them. They have not gained ground in Iraq. And in Syria it - they'll come in, they'll leave, but you don't see the systemic march by ISIL across the terrain. What we have not yet been able to do is to completely decapitate their command and control structures.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Let me get Michael Weiss in here, also retired three-star General Mark Hertling and also Paul Cruikshank, our terrorism analyst.

Michael, if I can begin with you. For a lot of people in America and even around the world, Jihadi John was the face of ISIS. And killing him is one man. But there has got to be a lot of value to the psychological warfare that the coalition just inflicted.

MICHAEL WEISS, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Yes. I mean Mohammed Emwazi had been repurposed by ISIS because he had idiomatic English and it was - it was quite literally terrifying to see a guy, you know, from the U.K. speaking in our own language and telling us that this is the fate that would befall any of the crusader infidels who wage war against Sunni Muslims. And, of course, he was personally responsible, according to U.S. intelligence, for beheading James Foley, Steven Sotloff and a host of other western hostages.

He was also quite psychopathic. If certain captives who've escaped his - his clutches are to be believed, there was a Dutch hostage who said that he made him perform these almost like clock-work orange-style sadistic torture pantomimes.

So this is a symbolic victory. I think that there's a little bit of justice that's been delivered to the families. But as you point out, Mohammed Emwazi, he wasn't just a lowly rank and file ISIS member. He was a member of Amadallah (ph), which is their state security apparatus, which is responsible for the interrogation and detention program that they run. That said, there are quite a lot of these guys running about and he is actually replaceable. And the real question is, do they have enough foreign fighters, particularly those from English-speaking countries in the west, to essentially inhabit the role of their sort of public media executioner.

BANFIELD: Yes, he may be replaceable, but it's getting those replacements to the site where they need to be. And to that end, General Hertling, I have heard you say, Sinjar and getting that town back is critical because it cuts off the supply lines, communication, food, supplies and recruits. Is this going to be the next strategy? Cut off the recruits or at least make them fear every person they're with if that person's public?

LT. GEN. MARK HERTLING (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Ashleigh, it's not the next strategy, it has been the strategy from the very beginning. The attempt at cutting supply lines, going after strongpoint defenses has been part of the overall operational plan from the very beginning of this fight. It's been difficult to pursue because there has not been the forces on the ground to conduct operations. You're seeing now the attempts, and the conclusion of the Kurds taking this town, which is in Kurdish territory, something they want to gain and defend as part of their Kurdish nationalistic pride, has been very successful.

But, again, I wouldn't quite claim victory yet. I've been in these kinds of operations before where it looks like things are relatively calm, as Nick Paton Walsh has mentioned, but there's still, I would suggest, going to be a lot of hard fighting in Sinjar. There are underground tunnels, there are booby traps, there are going to be people wounded and killed that are part of this fighting force. It is not over yet. I've seen these kind of towns that appear very calm after coalition forces have rolled in, and suddenly there's an uprising from either the tunnels or the houses or the left behind bombs. There is - there is - the clearing operation is what's going to be very, very difficult.

BANFIELD: Sure, and that's not even the mention of mines and sniper, and that can often take months and towns can sometimes not be cleared.

So to that end, Paul Cruikshank, we heard the president talk about how there's no decapitation here, but there is a swap-up of words being used. And our Jim Sciutto put it best. He said, contained is what the administration's using now, but that's a far cry from degrade and destroyed. So, effectively, what is victory - what does it look like and how do we define it against ISIS now?

PAUL CRUICKSHANK, CNN TERRORISM ANALYST: Well, Ashleigh, to some degree, ISIS has been contained in Syria and Iraq. Their forward momentum has been stalled, but they still control a huge amount of territory in both those countries. And the other thing here is that ISIS is expanding in other parts of the region. We've seen them expand into the Sinai Peninsula. They claim that attack on the Russian Metrojet, that potential attack on the Russian Metrojet plane. We've seen them expand in Libya. We've seen them expand in the Afghanistan/Pakistan region. We've seen them expand into the Nigeria with an affiliate there, now operating in Nigeria. So I'm not sure that this idea of containment really is accurate when you look at the entire region, Ashleigh.

[12:10:39] BANFIELD: All right. Paul Cruikshank, thank you for that. Michael Weiss, thank you. And also General Hertling, thank you all for your insight.

Coming up next, mere days after that gentlemanly debate, the GOP presidential race just got a whole lot more contentious between the two guys sitting happily at the top. How is Ben Carson responding to Donald Trump's visceral tirade?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:15:14] BANFIELD: The man who has managed to dislodge Donald Trump from the tippy top of some Republican primary polls is mingling with voters this hour in the all-important South Carolina state. That's home of the first southern nominating contest. Ben Carson's rise has come at a cost. One familiar to other Trump rivals, a full bore Donald Trump tirade or multiple tirades. Moments ago, Dr. Carson told reports he does not have to respond in kind or at all.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BEN CARSON (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: The wonderful thing is, it's not really up to me. It's up to the people. They will listen and they will be able to make a decision about whether they want to listen to the usual politics of personal discussion, or do they want to deal with something better.

QUESTION: Are you personally offended by it?

CARSON: Let me put it this way, I expect that kind of thing. That's what's been going on in our country for years that's dragging us in the mud. And I don't expect it to change any time soon. But I don't have to get into it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: This poll released Monday by McClatchy News is typical. Carson and Trump neck and neck with everybody else straining to reach the double digits. Carson on top. But check out whom GOP voters say they would definitely not support, no way, no how. The contest here is between Trump and Jeb Bush, with Carly Fiorina a distant third and Carson far down the list at just 3 percent. Even by Trump stands, his performance last night in Iowa was off the charts. And Ben Carson wasn't his only target. Trump also shared his self-professed expertise on ISIS.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I know more about ISIS than the generals do, believe me. I would bomb the (EXPLETIVE DELETED) out of them.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: As for the mild-mannered neurosurgeon who claims that he once had a violent temper, Trump literally cannot contain his contempt for Dr. Carson. Watch him ridicule a disturbing anecdote from Carson's memoir that's called "Gifted hands."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: He took a knife and he went after a friend, and he lunged, he lunged that knife into the stomach of his friend. But lo and behold, it hit the belt. It hit the belt. And the knife broke. Give me a break. Give me a break. Give me a break. The knife broke.

Let me tell you, I'm pretty good at this stuff. So, I have a belt, all right. Somebody hits me with a (INAUDIBLE) it's going to because the belt moves this way. It moves this way. It moves that way. He hit the buckle. Anybody - anybody have a knife? You want to try it on me? Believe me, it ain't going to work. You're going to be successful.

But he took the knife, he went like this, and he plunged it into the belt. And amazingly the belt stayed totally flat, and the knife broke. How stupid are the people of Iowa? How stupid are the people of the country to believe this crap?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: We are not done yet. At the same appearance, Mr. Trump repeated a claim that he made earlier in an interview with CNN's Erin Burnett that Carson's use of the word pathological in describing his own youthful anger puts him in pretty bad company.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: Pathological is a very serious disease. And he said he's pathological. Somebody said he has a pathological disease. Other - other people said he said in the book, and I haven't seen it, I know it's in the book, that he's got a pathological temper or temperament. That's a big problem because you don't cure that. That's like, you know, I could say - they say you don't cure, as an example, child molester. You don't cure these people. You don't cure a child molester. There's no cure for it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: OK. Normally I have an hour-long show and I wouldn't have this much material, and I have had to leave a lot of stuff on the editing room floor. This race is crazy.

But here's something that was really unusual. During the debate earlier this week, Dr. Carson was talking about foreign policy and he talked about how the Chinese are in Syria. And lot of people shook their heads and thought they'd heard it wrong. Went back to the DVR, checked it out. No, he said it. He said it for sure. And so the reporters who heard it, well, they decided to actually ask him about it today. Here's his answer.

[12:20:17] (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

QUESTION: Tuesday's debate you said that the Chinese are in Syria. Since then the White House, Susan Rice and Ben Rhodes, have come out and said that there's no evidence that the Chinese are in Syria, and that the Chinese military don't tend to like to get involved in conflicts in the Middle East. Is - do you want to revise or expand your statement (INAUDIBLE)?

CARSON: We actually will be releasing some material on that before the weekend is over.

QUESTION: Does that material, where did you get that material from? Could you give any kind of details about that?

CARSON: I have several sources that I have gotten material from. I'm surprised that my sources are better than theirs.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: He's surprised that his source are better than theirs. I'm not sure if "theirs" means us, the media, or if he means the sources of the National Security Adviser Susan Rice. Because if you are wondering how she reacted, you heard Nia-Malika Henderson allude to her saying something about that. Well, I'm going to show you exactly what the national security adviser said when asked, I'm sorry, are the Chinese actually in Syria? Have a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SUSAN RICE, NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: I have not seen any evidence of Chinese military involvement in Syria.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: I don't know, but last I checked, she's got some pretty good source. And so does Nia-Malika Henderson, who joins me live now.

I heard your voice off camera asking that question. Did he say he was going to release his sources information by the weekend? And are we learning anything more about this, because this is big news that the Chinese are now engaged in the Syrian conflict?

NIA-MALIKA HENDERSON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: That's right. It's big news. I was going back and forth with their campaign just a few minutes ago. They say they have these documents. That they're going to release these documents before the weekend. It is, of course, Friday. So, ideally, we will get those documents soon. Bu as you said, it goes directly against what the White House has said about the - about the Chinese involvement in Syria. You heard Susan Rice there. So this is indeed big news. So we'll have to see what we get out of the Ben Carson campaign who, of course, is speaking right behind me now.

BANFIELD: And there's a couple of other events. I know you have to scoot off. Nia-Malika, I'll release you so you can continue to collect the material that we can't keep up with. Nia-Malika Henderson live for us.

Thank you, ma'am.

HENDERSON: Thank you.

BANFIELD: So it turns out Carly Fiorina has heard enough, because on FaceBook the woman who is challenging Trump and Carson for the GOP nomination said this. Quote, "Donald, sorry, I've got to interrupt again, you would know something about pathological. How is that meeting with Putin or Wharton or your self-funded campaign? Anyone can turn a multi-million dollar inheritance into more money, but all of the money in the world won't make you as smart as Ben Carson." Mike drop on FaceBook.

Coming up next, Trump's tirade, is it a winner? Is it a loser? How do the voters feel? How did the audience feel? Oh, and did you hear him say that he knows more about ISIS than the generals? It just happens that there's a general standing by who cannot wait to weigh in on that little nugget.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:27:35] BANFIELD: Before the break we heard some vintage Donald Trump attacks on his closest Republican rival Ben Carson. But in his rally last night in Iowa and before that in his sit-down interview with CNN, Donald Trump was also playing defense on the signature topic immigration and forced deportation. Here's more of that interview with my colleague Erin Burnett.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ERIN BURNETT, ANCHOR, CNN'S "ERIN BURNETT OUTFRONT": But they're not going to want to leave. You're going to have to hire a lot of people to find them and get them over the border, right?

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Matter. You do it. Your - let me - first of all - first of all, they're here illegally. If a person comes across the border and you send them right back, the border patrol sends them right back, there's not a big court situation, they send them back. They (INAUDIBLE) -

BURNETT: Yes, but what about the guy already living in Detroit?

TRUMP: Excuse me. Excuse me. What's the difference between somebody that comes over the border for two days, he gets caught and they bring him back, and somebody that comes over the border, he's here for a year and you bring him back? There is no difference.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: President Obama, who's administration was under fire for years over rampant deportations, says Trump's ideas are at best unrealistic. The president spoke about this with ABC.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Imagine the images on the screen flashed around the world as we were dragging parents away from their children and putting them in, what, detention centers and then systematically sending them out. Nobody thinks that that is realistic. But, more importantly, that's not who we are as Americans.

(END VIDEO CLIP) BANFIELD: Want to hear a couple of other voices now. Tara Setmayer is a CNN political commentator and a proud conservative. Jeffrey Lord is a CNN political commentator and former White House political director to President Reagan. And Mark Hertling is a CNN military analyst and also a former commanding general of the U.S. Army forces in Europe. Count them, three-stars. That's a lot of stars on your uniform.

And to that, General Hertling, I would like to get your response to Donald Trump saying he knows more than the generals do about ISIS.

[12:29:30] LT. GEN. MARK HERTLING, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Ashleigh, what I'll say first is, is CNN asked me to do military analysis and I'm attempting to stay as a-political as possible and judge the candidates from their leadership perspective. It's becoming increasingly difficult to do that with Mr. Trump because of some of the things he's saying are just not military philosophy or campaign planning. They're just expletives or statements that you can't evaluate or analyze very well. To say that he knows more about ISIS, it would be interesting for him to have a debate with someone who actually knows a little bit about ISIS and see where he stacks up because from what I can tell, he knows very little about either ISIS or what's going on in the Middle East right now.