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CNN NEWSROOM

U.S. Targets Jihadi John; Trump Immigration Policy; Biden Takes on Campus Sexual Assaults. Aired 9:30-10a ET

Aired November 13, 2015 - 09:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[09:30:00] FAREED ZAKARIA, HOST, CNN'S "FAREED ZAKARIA GPS": We don't have any indication that he was particularly important in the command structure. And one of the things we've learned about these organizations is particularly at this level, I would call this the mid-level, you get - you kill them, they recruit as fast as they can. Now, if you get at the absolute top, as we did with al Qaeda, that's different. Then you are decapitating the leadership, the strategic minds. There's no indication Jihadi John -

CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: Now if they took out el Baghdadi, that would be something.

ZAKARIA: Baghdadi would be something. What would really be critical would be the military guys, who apparently come from Saddam Hussein's old army, who are directing a lot of ISIS military strategy. But Jihadi John is more symbolic.

COSTELLO: Exactly. I want you to listen to what Secretary of State John Kerry said early this morning because I know you sat down to talk with him. So let's listen to what Secretary Kerry said this morning.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN KERRY, SECRETARY OF STATE: We are still assessing the results of this strike, but the terrorist associated with Daesh need to know this, your days are numbered and you will be defeated.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: OK, so John Kerry's talking tough. You will be defeated. Your days are numbered. Is that right?

ZAKARIA: Look, at a tactical level, there's no question the United States and its allies can defeat ISIS. The United States is the most powerful military in the world. It's allied with very powerful militaries in the region. ISIS is 30,000 lightly armed men in comparison to the U.S. military.

The problem is, what happens then? You know, we used to have in Iraq this strategy, win, clear hold. We can win, we can clear, how do you hold? In other words, the problem in Iraq and Syria is there is a large terror - portion of the country where there are a lot of discontented Sunni who don't like the Iraqi government, who don't like the Syrian government. ISIS feeds on that discontent. You defeat ISIS, unless you're willing to run the place, you've got to find some local Sunnis who have legitimacy.

That's the piece that - that - and I think that's what President Obama was really referring to when he talked about how difficult this is. Militarily, this isn't that difficult. This is not the Soviet Union. This is not the Chinese military. The problem is, who governs those Sunni lands in Iraq. And that's what we've always found. When we go in there, the military part is easy, the political part is really hard.

COSTELLO: So a good example of what you're talking about is Sinjar, right? We're all celebrating that the Kurds chased ISIS terrorists out of Sinjar and took over the city. Be the Kurds can't put into place a government in Sinjar. So what happens to Sinjar now?

ZAKARIA: Right. And Sinjar is meant to be on the way to Mosul, which is the second largest city in Iraq. Who is going to govern these places? It can't be the Kurds. The Kurds are a minority and that would produce its own problems. So we need to find either some kind of pluralistic government that includes all these minority groups, all these groups, or we need to find the dominate group that has legitimacy. And, look, we've tried this for 10 years in Iraq. It's very hard.

That's where Ben Carson is profoundly wrong. This part of it is truly difficult because these places are trying to figure out, after 40, 50 years of repressive dictatorship, who governs, how they govern. We're trying to help them, but ultimately they're the ones who are going to make this work or not.

COSTELLO: Fareed Zakaria, thanks for stopping by. I appreciate it.

And by the way, Secretary of State John Kerry will be Fareed's guest on "GPS" this Sunday. It airs at 10:00 Eastern and 1:00 p.m. Eastern.

For the first time, we're hearing from a friend of one of Jihadi John's victims. Louise Woodward-Styles who knew British aid worker Alan Henning tells CNN this. Quote, "I don't think Jihadi John deserves the attention that his apparent death is causing. I think he was a coward and he doesn't deserve any publicity." Henning traveled back to Syria in 2013 to help deliver food and water to victims of the civil war. Henning was described by those who knew him as the tireless and selfless volunteer who loved the Syrian people.

Still to come in the NEWSROOM, slammed by GOP rivals and President Obama, Donald Trump sits down with CNN to fire back at his critics on his immigration plan.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:38:29] COSTELLO: Donald Trump heads to the sunshine state today where he's sure to talk about his immigration policy which is facing criticism from GOP rivals and President Obama. But before the trip, Trump sat down with CNN's Erin Burnett and took those critics on directly.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ERIN BURNETT, ANCHOR, CNN'S "ERIN BURNETT OUTFRONT": How do you take 11 people and make them leave?

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: You do it through a process. You do it in a very humane manner. You do it -

BURNETT: But they're not going to want to leave. You're going to have to hire a lot of people to find them and get them over the border, right?

TRUMP: Let me - first of all - first of all, they're here illegally. If a person comes across the border and you send them right backs, the border patrol sends them right back. There's not a big court situation. They send them back. They (INAUDIBLE) -

BURNETT: Yes, but what about the guy already living in Detroit?

TRUMP: Excuse me. Excuse me. What's the difference between somebody that comes over the border for two day, he gets caught and they bring him back? And somebody that comes over the border, he's here for a year, and you bring him back? There is no difference. What I'm saying is -

BURNETT: Well, logistically there's a difference -

TRUMP: No, no.

BURNETT: In terms of finding them and getting them to go. That's what costs some money and you have to have the people.

TRUMP: Well, you have to find them.

BURNETT: That's what I'm trying to understand what you'd do.

TRUMP: Well, you can go - you can also do e-verify. You do know that? You can do e-verify where the employers aren't going to be hiring them and then everyone's going to go back. That's one way of doing it so that you don't have the problem. (INAUDIBLE) -

BURNETT: There's been an estimate out there which you've seen, right, and I'm sure you'll say you can do it cheaper, but the number is big. To get all these people out of the country, they say $600 billion.

TRUMP: These are people that don't know what they're talking about. They also say -

BURNETT: That is as - bigger than the department of Defense funding.

TRUMP: Excuse me. Excuse me. They also say it's $15 billion to build a wall that I'll do for six. They also - and, by the way, my wall will be bigger and better and stronger and more powerful.

BURNETT: So - so say you do it for $100 billion.

TRUMP: Let me just explain something. Illegal immigration each year costs us between $200 billion and $300 billion. I don't know if anybody gives you those numbers. Probably not. But - and when you include crime and other problems, it's more than that. So you're talking about between $200 billion and $300 billion the way it is now, all right.

[09:40:11] BURNETT: But they pay in taxes. They pay $24 billion in taxes.

TRUMP: Who pays taxes? Do you really believe they pay in taxes? They pay very little.

BURNETT: They pay Social Security, state and local.

TRUMP: OK. Yes, what percentage of them? Ten percent?

BURNETT: It's $24 billion a year this economy wouldn't have if they weren't here (ph).

TRUMP: Excuse me. Excuse me. Do you know how few pay taxes, Erin? Don't be naive. Do you think that an illegal immigrant getting money is going to be paying taxes? OK, sure, some probably do, only because the employer are insisting on it. OK. But there's very little - percentagewise, there's very little. Probably 5 percent, 10 percent. It's a very small amount pay taxes, Erin.

Look, they're here illegally. They're not paying taxes, OK. I've heard this one before too. I hear them all. What I do is I get things better. I make things really good. I fix things. And, you know, I'm a real fixer of things. Not Jeb Bush, OK. I'm a real fixer. I can really do things.

One of the reasons the wall never got built, they couldn't get their environmental impact statement, if you can believe it, because something was in the way. They couldn't get their environmental impact statement.

So here's the thing. Between e-verify, which will take care of a big portion of them, then (ph) go back. And you know what, if they can't get a job, they're going back anyway. We don't have to knock on doors.

BURNETT: So - so I guess - so on this point about humanity, though, are you going to be sending in officers, a force of people into people's homes to get them out?

TRUMP: We're going to be sending people in a very nice way. We're going to be giving notice. We're going to be saying you have to go back to wherever the country is. I mean it's going to be countries - all different countries. It's not one country. Back to the country. We'll take them back to those countries. We're going to do it in a very humane way. But between e-verify and other modern systems a lot of that will happen automatically. And don't forget, we're taking tremendous numbers of jobs from people that were born in this country. And you understand that because when you look at the roads (ph), you have 100 million people that potentially want to work and they can't find jobs.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: OK. So let's talk about this. Ron Brownstein is with me, CNN senior political analyst and editorial director for "The National Journal," and on the phone is Michael Cohen, he is the EVP of the Trump Organization and special counsel to Donald Trump.

Welcome to both of you.

Before -

MICHAEL COHEN, EVP, TRUMP ORGANIZATION (via telephone): Carol, good morning.

COSTELLO: Good morning.

Before we delve into Trump on immigration, I want to look at the whole picture. These are numbers from the U.S. immigration and enforcement, ICE. ICE deported nearly 316,000 undocumented immigrants in 2014. Fifty-six percent of all ICE removals were previously convicted of a crime. In 2013, there were 368,000 deportations. So over a two year period, ICE sent back 684,587 people. That is roughly the population of the cities of Atlanta and Orlando combined.

OK. So now we have the whole picture. So, Ron, with critics on both sides of the aisle taking shots at Trump's plan, do you think he needs to rethink? Is he giving the American people the whole picture?

RON BROWNSTEIN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, I don't think he's going to rethink because I think his views on immigration have been the core of his appeal in the Republican Party. Look, Donald Trump can say he can manage things better than anyone else. But the reality is that this would be an almost unprecedented logistical challenge. He talks about e-verify and cutting off employment. That is essentially the self-deportation argument of Mitt Romney made in 2012.

The underlying reality is that to remove this many people from the U.S. as George Will (ph) once famously wrote, you would need a line of school buses from San Diego to Alaska. And I think, Carol, that is the reason why consistently in polling - I've written about polls on this issue over twenty years. Consistently in polling, only around one- third of Americans would deny the undocumented legal status. About two-thirds have always said they would either allow them to become citizens or remain here legally without citizenship, even among Republicans. Maybe the campaign is changing this, but as recently as this fall, a majority of Republicans have said they would support some kind of legal status.

You mentioned Florida in the exit poll in 2012 in the Republican primary there, only one-third of Republicans said they would support deportation. Americans have never viewed this as a practical, pragmatic, viable option.

COSTELLO: OK. So, Michael, going back - going back to these ICE statistics, Michael, because I do want to talk to you about that. So over a two year period, ICE sent back 684,587 undocumented immigrants. Isn't that enough?

COHEN: Oh, clearly not. And, you know, I was on Jake Tapper the other day and I have to ask the same of you and Ron. I need somebody to please explain to me how any candidate, whether Republican or Democrat, can disagree with Donald Trump's position. They sneak into the country. They overstay visas. The politicians want to offer amnesty, green card, citizenship.

[09:44:56] Mr. Trump at least has a plan. He believes in immigration, but not illegal immigration. And the single most important function of the United States president is to ensure our national security. And that's going to require knowing who is in this country.

COSTELLO: Okay. Let's stop there -- Let's stop there, Michael. Let's stop there, Michael.

COHEN: We do not know. You throw out this ICE statistic, but we don't know who these people are.

COSTELLO: Actually we do because ICE says --

COHEN: No, we don't.

COSTELLO: Yes, we do because it is all on the ICE website. If you go to ice.gov it details who these people are. Most of them are from Mexico, Guatemala, and the Honduras. And 56 percent of them have some criminal act in their background and they have been deported. So there is information out there. You just have to go online.

COHEN: They claim there is 11 million individuals in this country who are illegal. You are referring to 600,000. What about the difference? Isn't our national security important? Isn't it important to know who is living next door to you? That is why the American people are pro Trump. That is why this entire issue is resonating with the American people the way that it is.

COSTELLO: Ron, do you agree with that? Is it more that Donald Trump is telling the whole truth? Or is it just Donald Trump is scaring people?

BROWNSTEIN: Well look, I think there is no question that this is resonating with a portion of the Republican base, particularly non- college Republicans, which is the core of Donald Trump's strength. But there is much, as I said, even a majority of Republicans consistently in polling have not viewed deportation as a practical answer. I and would love to ask Michael two questions.

One, you know, Donald Trump and you have just talked about support for illegal immigration. If you look at your own position paper on immigration on your website, the first policy paper he put out, he calls for a pause in legal immigration, a pause in legal immigration, essentially a moratorium on legal immigration to allow the -- and the argument that those legal immigrants are taking jobs from Americans. If he supports legal immigration, why does he want a moratorium on legal immigration?

COHEN: Ron, you have -- at least Donald Trump has a plan. None of these other individuals have a plan. The reason is you have to stop the bleeding. You have to stop the flow into the country --

BROWNSTEIN: (INAUDIBLE) --

COHEN: -- to figure out what's really going on. You all talked about it -

BROWNSTEIN: (INAUDIBLE)

COHEN: -- as if you really know what's going on in the numbers. All you are doing is regurgitating the information that the government is putting out. And to be honest with you, nobody, no citizen to date believes anything that the government is telling you.

BROWNSTEIN: I'm not regurgitating anything. I'm asking a question. In your policy paper, the first policy paper you published, Donald Trump said --

COHEN: I just answered your question.

BROWNSTEIN: -- he supports to pause illegal immigration.

COHEN: Ron, I just answered your question.

BROWNSTEIN: Did he put a moratorium on legal immigration?

COHEN: I still just answered your question.

BROWNSTEIN: You didn't say anything about legal immigration. Does he support a moratorium on legal immigration?

COHEN: You should ask Donald Trump.

BROWNSTEIN: How does that - that he supports legal immigration?

COHENL He supports legal immigration. What the problem -

BROWNSTEIN: He supports a moratorium.

COHEN: The problem is you have too much going on where nothing has been done for too long. He needs to stop the situation. You need to evaluate quickly, which is what Donald Trump does better than anyone, and he needs to figure out how to fix it. That is what somebody needs to do and the only one who's capable of doing it is Donald Trump.

COSTELLO: All right. I got to leave it there. Ron Brownstein, Michael Cohen, thanks to both of you.

Still to come in the NEWSROOM, Joe Biden is not running for president but he is campaigning to stop sexual assault on college campuses. He talks about it next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:53:02] COSTELLO: Vice President Joe Biden has shifted his focus from presidential politics to the fight against sexual assault. Biden has been making the rounds of college campuses to promote his initiative called "It's On Us." Yesterday he spoke at his alma matter, Syracuse University, to urge students to be proactive in stopping sexual abuse.

CNN senior Washington correspondent Joe Johns is with me from Washington. Good morning, Joe.

JOE JOHNS, CNN SENIOR WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Carol. Joe Biden went to law school at Syracuse. This was very personal for him. He was back at the campus this time talking about the issue of sexual abuse. This is really a legacy issue for him. Goes back almost 20 years when he authored the Violence Against Women Act but also a bit of an acknowledgment that you cannot legislate behavior on college campuses. Still, as I said, very personal for him as if he was talking to family on the campus of Syracuse. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Guys, it's not complicated. You're an upperclassman, you're at a fraternity party. A lovely young freshman girl gets drunk, like too many do in their freshman year. She's nearly passing out. When you see your roommate or your fraternity brother walking her upstairs, have the gumption to step in. Tell him, expose him.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JOHNS: Biden also traveled to Clemson University in South Carolina as well as Morehouse College in Atlanta all to talk about this issue. And he's authored an op-ed that's appeared on a number of college campus newspapers. So very busy on this issue, especially since he decided not to run for president, Carol.

COSTELLO: All right. Joe Biden -- Joe Johns. Thanks. Joe Johns reporting live from the White House.

[09:55:01] JOHNS: All good.

COSTELLO: I know. To learn more about this important issue, be sure to watch the groundbreaking documentary "The Hunting Ground." It airs next Thursday, November 19th, 9:00 p.m. Eastern and Pacific right here on CNN.

Checking some other top stories at 55 minutes past.

A new expert report on the death of Tamir Rice, the 12-year-old shot and killed by police while playing with a toy gun, has found that the officers' decision to open fire was, quote, "objectively reasonable." The report is the third to have come to this conclusion and it was released by prosecutors on the same day as this video, which shows the shooting from an angle never before seen by the public. The prosecutor has not said when this evidence will be presented to a grand jury. The Rice family argues the findings are biased and has called for a new prosecutor to be assigned to the case.

Secretary of Defense Ash Carter announcing he's fired his top military aide, Lieutenant General Ron Lewis, over allegations of misconduct. While Carter won't say what the allegations against Lieutenant General are, he has turned the matter over to the Inspector General for investigation.

The next hour of CNN "NEWSROOM" after a break. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)