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GOP Presidential Candidates Face Off in Fourth Debate; No Consensus in Republican Party on Immigration; Donald Trump Versus Rand Paul On TPP. Aired 12-1a ET

Aired November 11, 2015 - 00:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[00:00:00] DANA BASH, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Maybe to respond to what Carly Fiorina just told us about how she felt he came across when he asked her to stop interrupting so much during the debate. But also how he feels about -- I'm just looking over my shoulder to make sure that he's not close. How he feels about just how it went overall because, you know, it was pretty intense policy discussion.

And those moments he didn't play as much as he has in the past when it's been more about personality or character or politics. So we're going to try to ask him that as soon as we can -- Anderson.

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: All right, Dana. Will check back in with you.

You know, we're talking about this a little bit during the break. I mean, do you think people really -- any minds were really changed tonight? I mean, we saw it in that, you know, unscientific focus group in South Carolina.

DAVID AXELROD: I really don't. I really don't. I think this thing went pretty much true to form. I don't think the frontrunners probably lost much ground.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right.

AXELROD: I think the two guys who've been doing well, Cruz and Rubio, did well again. I think Bush did do better but I don't think he did enough to really ignite his candidacy. I think Kasich was more energetic but I don't think that he's selling something that Republicans are particularly buying.

JEFFREY LORD, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: We're watching this slide I think possibly to a four-man race with the two frontrunners, with Carson and Trump and with Rubio and Cruz.

(CROSSTALK)

AMANDA CARPENTER, FORMER COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR FOR SEN. TED CRUZ: A closer call for Carson and Trump. I don't -- I think they'll maintain frontrunner status probably for a few more months because it'll be a gradual fall.

COOPER: Do you think they will fall? CARPENTER: Yes, I do. And I think the pattern that we are seeing

emerge in the race could come down to Cruz and Rubio and we will have a very good debate of -- about the future of the Republican Party and where the road --

(CROSSTALK)

CARPENTER: About whether we would increase military spending and child care tax cuts. It's about --

ANA NAVARRO, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: We'll call it the --

(SPEAKING IN FOREIGN LANGUAGE)

Look, I think what you just -- what you heard from that guy in South Carolina in the focus group is so telling and it's telling for the voters in Iowa, and New Hampshire, and South Carolina in the early states. They are volatile states where they make up their mind very late in the game. They are going to spend the next 90 days hearing, looking, meeting, investigating, scrutinizing and they can change their mind 10 times between now and then.

COOPER: Looks like Donald Trump is coming up to Dana. Let's listen to that.

BASH: How are you? Thank you so much. Appreciate it. First, just generally were you happy with the way this debate went?

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I thought it was great. I thought the moderators were elegant. I thought the questions were really, really on point, and I thought it was a great night. I really thought it was -- actually the word is elegant. It was an elegant evening. The three of them, they were so professional, especially after the last catastrophe where people are asking about fantasy football. However that stuff gets in there. But they were really -- they did a great job.

BASH: What did you make of your exchange with John Kasich, who I just spoke to after the debate ended and he said he's going to keep pressing on the fact that he thinks that your immigration plan is pie in the sky and it's just not realistic.

TRUMP: Well, that's OK. There are a few people up there, as you know, that agree with me on my plan. If you look at 1950s, early 1950s, a man named President Dwight Eisenhower moved 1.5 million out because he didn't want illegal immigration and he moved them out three different times. He moved them here, here, and then finally he really moved them out.

We have no choice. We are a nation of laws and we have to do it right. We need borders and we have to be -- come into the country, come in legally. And I think that was very wise. It may have been my largest applause of the night when I said about the wall, when I said about -- when I talked about immigration. It may have been actually the largest applause I got that night. BASH: I just spoke to Carly Fiorina and asked her about the moment

when you asked the moderators why she was interrupting so much and she said it was typical Trump. That you didn't want to be interrupted and other people were interrupting all night long.

TRUMP: Well, I wasn't interrupting people, and I thought that it was time that somebody said -- because Carly has a habit of just speaking whenever she wants to speak. So I think I was speaking on behalf of the other people up there. And she was fine but I thought it was appropriate because every -- I mean, she interrupted too many times.

BASH: I asked her if she thought it was because of her gender, because that's what she was suggesting to me, and she said you decide.

TRUMP: Say hello to Jeff Zucker.

BASH: Are you concerned --

TRUMP: Say hello to Jeff Zucker.

BASH: Are you concerned about that?

TRUMP: I'm not concerned about anything.

BASH: OK.

TRUMP: And I'll tell you what, say hello to Jeff.

BASH: I will. Bye.

COOPER: All right. Dana.

AXELROD: Trump was a model of decorum. Who knew?

BASH: Yes.

(CROSSTALK)

NIA-MALIKA HENDERSON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: It's his wife that seems to have a calming effect on him. She of course --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And the staff --

(CROSSTALK)

CARPENTER: I cannot for the life of me as someone who desperately wants to stop illegal immigration why he is leading with the deportation card. It makes no sense to me.

GLORIA BORGER, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL ANALYST: Maybe because it did so well for Mitt Romney.

HENDERSON: Yes.

BORGER: How about that?

(CROSSTALK)

CARPENTER: You can talk about stopping the flow of illegal immigration but frankly I don't think he understands the bureaucratic problems that federal government faces and how you would actually fix it. And it's easier to say deport and build a wall than go through the actual process of figuring out how you stop this problem.

[00:05:05] COOPER: Let's talk about this. But I just -- for those who are just tuning in at the top of the hour, I just want to show you some of the key moments. I mean, this debate was billed as being about the economy. For many on the stage it was always about more than just that. For Donald Trump and Ben Carson, it was a chance to show Republican voters why they deserve to be leading. Two others, Ted Cruz, Marco Rubio, came in with perhaps the most to gain. Several others had little to lose and took the opportunity to try to stake out their differences from the rest of the pack.

Let's take a look at some of the key moments during this debate.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. RAND PAUL (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: When you think it's going to be a good idea to have a no-fly zone over Iraq, realize that means you are saying we are going to shoot down Russian planes. If you are ready for that, be ready to send your sons and daughters to another war in Iraq. I don't want to see that happen. I think the first war in Iraq was a mistake.

(APPLAUSE)

You can be strong without being involved in every civil war around the world.

NEIL CAVUTO, FBN DEBATE MODERATOR: And how would you respond?

PAUL: Ronald Reagan was strong but Ronald Reagan didn't send troops into the Middle East.

CARLY FIORINA (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: And Ronald Reagan walked away at (INAUDIBLE). He walked away, he quit talking when it was time to quit talking.

PAUL: Can I finish my time? Can I finish with my time?

TRUMP: Why does she keep interrupting everybody?

(LAUGHTER)

PAUL: Yes, I'd like to finish -- I'd like to finish my response, basically.

(BOOS)

TRUMP: As far as Syria, I like if Putin wants to go in and I got to know him very well because we were both on "60 Minutes." We were stable mates and we did very well that night. But -- you know that. But if Putin wants to go and knock the hell out of ISIS, I am all for it 100 percent and I can't understand how anybody would be against it.

JEB BUSH (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: They're not --

TRUMP: They blew up -- hold it. They blew up -- wait a minute. They blew up a Russian airplane. He cannot be in love with these people. He's going in and we can go in and everybody should go in.

BUSH: Donald is wrong on this. He's absolutely wrong on this. We're not going to be the world's policemen but we sure as heck better be the world's leader. That's a -- there's a huge difference where without us leading, voids are filled and the idea that it is a good idea for Putin to be in Syria, let ISIS take out Assad and then Putin will take out ISIS. And that's like a board game. That's like playing Monopoly or something. That's not how the real world works.

FIORINA: You know, Mr. Trump fancies himself a very good negotiator and I accept that he's done a lot of good deals. So Mr. Trump ought to know that we should not speak to people from a position of weakness. Senator Paul should know that as well.

One of the reasons I have said that I would not be talking to Vladimir Putin right now, although I have met him as well, not in a green room for a show but in a private meeting --

(LAUGHTER)

DR. BEN CARSON (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Bernie Sanders and Hillary Clinton won't tell you that that's the thing that's hurting the middle class and the poor. They'll say it's the rich. Take their money. But that won't help. You can take all of the rich's money and it won't make a dent in the problem that we're having. We have to come back to the fundamental principles that made America great.

BUSH: My worry is that the real economy has been hurt by the vast overreach of the Obama administration and Hillary Clinton, she wants to double down on that. She wants to create even more so. She is a captive of the left of her party to the point now where she's -- she was for the trade agreement in -- the Pacific agreement and now she's against it. She was handed -- she was for the XL pipeline, now she's opposed to it. All the things that would create and sustain economic growth she is now doubling down against it.

GERARD BAKER, DEBATE MODERATOR: Governor, can I just -- you can't seriously guarantee that there won't be another financial crisis, can you?

BUSH: You could if you were serious about --

BAKER: There will never be another financial crisis?

BUSH: No, I can't say that.

SEN. TED CRUZ (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Why would you then bail out rich Wall Street banks but not main street, not pop and mom, not Sabina Loving? Well, you just said --

(CROSSTALK)

GOV. JOHN KASICH (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: No, I didn't say that.

CRUZ: No, just step in and bail out a bank.

KASICH: They were talking about what you would do with depositors. Would you let these banks shut down? My argument is going forward. The banks have to reserve the capital so that the people who own the capital start pressuring the banks to not take these risky approaches, Ted. But at the end of the day --

CRUZ: So you said you'd abandon democracy and abandon principles.

KASICH: Let me tell you this. Let me tell you this.

CRUZ: But what would you do if the bank was failing?

KASICH: Because if during -- look, I'll tell you what.

CRUZ: What would you do if the bank was closed?

KASICH: I would not let the people who put their money in there all go down.

CRUZ: So you would bail them out?

KASICH: As an executive -- no. As an executive I would figure out how to separate those people who can afford it versus those people who are the hard-working folks who put their money in those institutions.

MARIA BARTIROMO, FBN DEBATE MODERATOR: Hillary Clinton is the clear frontrunner for the Democratic nomination. If she is indeed the nominee, you will be facing a candidate with an impressive resume. She was the first lady of the United States. A U.S. senator from New York and secretary of state under Barack Obama. She has arguably more experience, certainly more time in government, than almost all of you on stage tonight.

[00:10:06] Why should the American people trust you to lead this country, even though she has been so much closer to the office?

SEN. MARCO RUBIO (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Well, that's a great question. Let me begin my answer.

(LAUGHTER)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: I mean, it is interesting the reaction to some of John Kasich's comments. Again, we go back to his comment on illegal immigration and deportation. Played well in the room but you look on Twitter, you look at the reaction certainly among conservatives out there, not very favorable at all to what he said.

CARPENTER: There's a lot of what John Kasich said that's reminiscent of the worst of the Bush administration. A, with illegal immigration pretending that if you want to stop it you're somehow anti-immigrant but also what you saw in the bailout discussion.

What Ted Cruz was getting at was essentially an echo of Bush's remarks that we have to save the free market from itself. You know, John Kasich is saying we have to bail out the banks and not let people suffer. Never mind the laws that we have that already protect people, you know, insurance of up to $200,000.

The debate over the bailout is what spurred the Tea Party into action. People were so frustrated with what President Bush did, they are still working out that anger and that anger is now being directed at John Kasich because he reminds people of the Bushes.

(CROSSTALK)

NAVARRO: Let's also remember --

COOPER: It's more important to govern than to stick to a --

LORD: Well, governing is defined by a lot of these folks as moving the country left. This is Margaret Thatcher's complaint about the British conservative party. And she called it the socialist ratchet that the Labour government would govern, move the country left. A conservative government would come in and just sit there and manage it, then they'd lose then repeat the cycle. She was determined to move the government and in the country in the other direction because she felt it was really damaging Britain. That was also Ronald Reagan's point.

(CROSSTALK)

NAVARRO: Just remember who John Kasich is. He is the governor of a purple state. He has been in Congress. He's been this the -- in the private sector and he's now a government of that purple state. The purplest of them all. The most -- the one that's most up for grabs. And he -- before and after this, he may still be the governor. He still has to be that. And I think, you know what, I give him kudos for not pandering, not trying to be who he is not. It's very different than being --

(CROSSTALK)

MICHAEL SMERCONISH, CNN HOST, "SMERCONISH": The fact that people would even debate his relative conservativism is a reflection, not on him.

NAVARRO: Right.

SMERCONISH: But what this Republican Party has become.

COOPER: We've got to take a quick break. There's a lot more to come tonight including a fact check on the candidates and a focus group in Iowa as our special 360 coverage continues. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[00:16:04] COOPER: Welcome back. Tonight's debate in Milwaukee was a chance for the candidates to have a breakout moment and to win over undecided voters going into very important early voting states, South Carolina and Iowa. In the last hour, we heard from voters in Charleston, now the Hawkeye state.

Our Randi Kaye watched the debate with a group of voters. We've been talking a lot about evangelical Christians. Randi is in Marshalltown, Iowa.

Randi, what did you hear?

RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Anderson, we watched the debate with a group from the New Hope Christian Church here in Marshalltown, Iowa. Many of them undecided. In fact, Anderson, about 80 percent of Iowans are still undecided as we're approaching this February 1st caucus. So it was a very important debate for them. They're all trying to get a lot closer to the candidate of their choice.

There was a moment that really stood out for this group, particularly this moment where Donald Trump and Jeb Bush got into it over immigration because that's a very important issue in this community right here. So first watch this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: We are a country of laws. We need borders. We will have the wall. The wall will be built. The wall will be successful. And if you think walls don't work, all you have to do is ask Israel.

BUSH: What we need to do is allow people to earn legal status, where they pay a fine, where they work, where they don't commit crimes, where they learn English and over an extended period of time they earn legal status. That's the path -- a proper path to --

(CHEERS AND APPLAUSE)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KAYE: So clearly a big disagreement there on the immigration issue. Donald Trump coming out strong. Jeb Bush fighting back.

Frank Moran, you are a strong Donald Trump supporter. Do you think he made his case?

FRANK MORAN, IOWA VOTER: Yes. He's made his case from day one when he announced he was running. This country has laws and it needs a border to be a country. And Donald Trump is the one who can enforce that and get that into place.

KAYE: Do you really believe that he can get out the illegal immigrants that he says he can, all -- thousands of them?

MORAN: Yes. It's going to take time, no doubt. But what's going to happen is Donald Trump is smart. He surrounds himself with people that can help him get the job done and it's going to be done and he can get it done and we will be a great country again.

KAYE: Somebody who might disagree with you is over here on my right.

Ben, you came into this debate as a Ted Cruz supporter. He also weighed in and you like his immigration plan.

BEN METSENGER, IOWA VOTER: Yes, ma'am. Very much. I really liked how he wants to solidify the border. That's essential. We've got to stop illegal immigration, not just from Mexicans coming over and needing jobs and stuff like that, we've got to stop that from happening with terrorists. You know, they -- if we have an open border they just come in and out.

KAYE: And this actually solidified Ted Cruz for you tonight.

METSENGER: Yes.

KAYE: You were kind of on the fence but this is it.

METSENGER: Right. Yes. I'm in for Ted Cruz. Yes. Yes. I liked his statement about not being for amnesty also. It's very important.

KAYE: And, Jane, what about you, I mean, certainly in the Christian community immigration is very important. Why is that?

JANE, IOWA VOTER: I think it's very difficult as a Christian because we have to reconcile both the commands that we have to have compassion for people and that we have to follow the laws of the land. And so we have to find a way to make those two work together on it. It's interesting, though, in the area of immigration, it's the only policy that is done -- it's been created more so -- and again I'm a Santorum supporter and he says it's the only one where our policies are designed in the best interest of the immigrant rather than in the best interest of Americans.

And I think there's a lot of hurting American families whose jobs and wages have been driven down because of it. So you have to look at all of those issues instead of just focusing on one aspect.

KAYE: It's a very, very tough issue, very important issue as I said here in this community.

But I can tell you, Anderson, that two people have officially decided tonight in terms of their candidate, one being right here, Ben next to me.

Anderson, back to you.

COOPER: All right, Randi. And thank them all for sticking around for us.

Back with our panel here in Washington. It is interesting always to hear. And again, those were evangelical voters. Anything surprising from them?

CARPENTER: What it does tell me more broadly is that the Republican Party this time around wants to be law and order party. [00:20:03] Donald Trump is strongest talking about illegal immigration

when he talks about stopping illegal immigration. Not deportation. People like Ted Cruz, because he talks about it in the same way. When moderate candidates turn the discussion about illegal immigration into how we will give protections and amnesty and legal status to people who already broke the law, people are rejecting that outright. And people say well, how come the Republican Party has become so much more hard line on this in recent years?

It's because it gets worse and worse every year and now we have the national security element to worry about which that Iowa voter raised.

BORGER: So the question is, is it worse than it was in 2012 when Mitt Romney talked about self-deportation during the primaries and then it hurt him in the general election? This isn't self-deportation. This is deportation. Right? So it's a step further. Right?

CARPENTER: And Donald Trump is the only one talking about it in those terms. I think that's a negative. And what I'm saying is that the Republicans are very strong --

(CROSSTALK)

BORGER: So he said amnesty, you know --

COOPER: Let's play the Cruz talking about this.

BORGER: Good.

COOPER: Talking about amnesty.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CRUZ: The Democrats are laughing because if Republicans join Democrats as the party of amnesty, we will lose.

(APPLAUSE)

And you know, I understand that when the mainstream media covers immigration, it doesn't often see it as an economic issue but I can tell you for millions of Americans at home watching this, it is a very personal economic issue. And I will say the politics of it would be very, very different if a bunch of lawyers or bankers were crossing the Rio Grande. Or if a bunch of people with journalism degrees were coming over and driving down the wages in the press.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LORD: What he's saying -- what he's saying there is what was reflected in John King's polling numbers. When they turn to Donald Trump, they gave him far and away what, 40 percent.

COOPER: Right. On immigration.

LORD: Right. And then right behind that was illegal immigration. And we've seen polls where that's -- in Iowa. So the issues are intertwined. I mean, they're not separate issues. They're together. And I think that's why he makes such an impact with it. And precisely because he's so crystal clear on this. That's what --

(CROSSTALK)

NAVARRO: Donald Trump kind of --

AXELROD: Can we have a reality check?

(CROSSTALK)

COOPER: One at a time. David?

AXELROD: The country that is becoming more diverse each election. The Republican candidate has to get something in the order of 40 percent of the Hispanic vote to win the election. George W. Bush got 44 percent. Mitt Romney got 27 percent. And we're more diverse than we were in 2004 when George W. Bush won.

(CROSSTALK)

LORD: I have to --

AXELROD: This is -- I have to tell you, just as a clinical matter, this is a losing debate for the Republican Party. If the Republican Party gets hung up on -- I mean I think when Ted Cruz says we don't want to be the party of amnesty. The Democrats are laughing and so on. A majority of this country believes in comprehensive immigration reform that gives people a path to citizenship if they pay their -- if they pay penalties and so on. That's where a majority of the country is.

Beyond which, the Hispanic community was completely alienated by the debate on immigration four years ago and they will be again if this is the tenor of the debate.

(CROSSTALK)

NAVARRO: Donald Trump hit upon this subject matter in this topic I think by accident. In his opening -- you know, in his opening speech when he was launching his campaign he called Mexicans rapists and lo and behold the next day his numbers started going way, way up. So now the more drastic his terms can be the better in his book.

I think that the difference you're trying to draw between Donald Trump and Ted Cruz is really in the weeds. You are a former Capitol Hill staffer. But for most people out there, Ted Cruz and Donald Trump are anti-immigrant. Jeb Bush, John Kasich --

(CROSSTALK)

NAVARRO: Marco Rubio -- Jeb Bush, Marco Rubio have -- you know, support legal status. And I think that's how people understand it. And they're able to --

(CROSSTALK) SMERCONISH: Donald Trump's negative according to Gallup midsummer was negative 51 percent. He's just incapable of growing the tent in a way that David correctly states is necessary for the Republicans to win a general election.

COOPER: What do you say to the argument that, I mean, David just on numbers needing to get a certain amount of Hispanic votes?

LORD: Sure. But of course Hispanics are not all in one state, I mean, they're not equally dispersed all around the country. I mean. there are a lot of Hispanics in California. I'm not so sure the Republican Party is going to carry California.

(CROSSTALK)

LORD: Where they are makes a difference.

DONNA BRAZILE, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Florida, Nevada.

LORD: You also have to get your conservative base out. They didn't turn out for Mitt Romney. That's why he isn't president. They didn't turn out for John McCain. They don't turn out, that's why Gerald Ford lost.

SMERCONISH: They're turning out to vote against Hillary Clinton.

LORD: What?

[00:25:03] SMERCONISH: Wild horses could not keep conservatives from coming out to vote against Hillary Clinton.

LORD: No, I heard that about Barack -- about Barack Obama and he's still there.

AXELROD: But you know what, this is interesting because this it seems to me is the debate that the Republican Party has to have. Each election, the Republican Party has nominated a center right kind of establishment Republican at the end of the day and they have lost the popular vote five out of the last six elections, they've lost the last couple of elections. You hear conservatives like Ted Cruz say we need a real conservative.

LORD: Right.

AXELROD: And --

LORD: That's what Reagan used to say. He was right.

AXELROD: And -- well, you know, maybe you guys have to run the experiment.

BORGER: But how do you define what a real conservative is?

COOPER: You think it's going to happen.

(CROSSTALK) CARPENTER: Yes. I mean, if you look at the frustration that the Republican primary voters have, they are saying, you know, even now in protest in supporting Donald Trump and Ben Carson we don't want more of the same. We don't like what happened in the last two elections. We want someone who will stand up and be a strong conservative against liberal policies and you see that's where the voters are going. There's no appetite for a moderate --

COOPER: I want to continue the discussion but we do need to take a quick break but we will continue when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[00:30:10] COOPER: And welcome back. Before the break, we were having a good discussion about illegal immigration, how it's going to play in a general election.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[00:30:10]

COOPER: And, welcome back; before the break we were having a good discussion about illegal immigration, how it's going to play in a general election with the Hispanic vote. I want to turn quickly though to our Chief National Correspondent, John King, with some numbers on the subject. John?

JOHN KING, CNN CHIEF WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: Well, Anderson, Mr. Axelrod is dead right when he says this is an issue that's hurt the Republicans in the general election. Mr. Trump is on the right ground, if you will, when it comes to the early states in the primaries. Now we showed you this number earlier, but I just want to come to it just to show you, once again, when it comes to illegal immigration in the state of Iowa, which votes first, Donald Trump, who says build a wall and deport those who are here undocumented, has a 32 point lead among the other Republicans in the state of Iowa. He's in a dead heat with Ben Carson in the state, but he leads with 32 points on the issue of immigration. So when he says throw them out and build a wall, he has strong support among Republicans in Iowa. So the question is if you are somebody else, can you close the gap with Donald Trump? The national polls, if you just look at the top five, Trump and Carson still up here; Carson and Trump pretty much on the same page, although Trump is much more vocal about his immigration views.

You want to get to Marco Rubio, he supports legal status; he's down here. He once supported a path to citizenship, he's down here. So is Jeb Bush. Ted Cruz is drafting with Trump on immigration, he's down here as well. Trump owns this issue, when it comes to right now. I just want to come -- I showed you the Iowa numbers where Trump leads on immigration. He's still at the top of pack; Rubio and Cruz down here; Jeb Bush way down here.

So, if you are thinking about can you make up ground, and one other state, you think, maybe New Hampshire, right? Independents can vote. A recent poll out this week had immigration ranked second, Anderson, in the issue there. When you talk to any of the campaigns they say how surprised they are it keeps comes up, an anti-amnesty argument Republican voters put it in town halls, and, again, Trump is way ahead in New Hampshire at the moment. Nationally, and in Iowa, he is pretty much tied with Carson. He's still way ahead in New Hampshire and you have to come down here, Kasich argues for path to citizenship or status, I mean. Bush down here, Rubio as well. They're all way down here. Carson's in second place in New Hampshire. So those making the case that the Republican Party needs to change its ways and have a path to legal status, they have a lot of ground to make up against Trump, especially when it comes to New Hampshire.

COOPER: All right, John thanks very much. Amanda, what do you make, to David Axelrod's point, about in order to win Hispanic voters, which is necessary in order to win the White House, talking about deporting 11 million people, talking about building a wall will not get you there?

AMANDA CARPENTER, CNN CONTRBUTOR: Well I just think there's different ways of looking at this issue. The Democrats see that illegal immigration issue as a way of appealing to Hispanic voters or not, but Republican primary voters, particularly ones in Iowa and elsewhere, see so many more issues wrapped up into this debate. It is about rule of law. It is about our expansive welfare programs. It's about jobs. It is about national security. It is all wrapped into the single issue of people coming in to the country illegally. So it is much bigger than this one issue and Republicans talk about it. I think they should infuse all of those elements in to it. You see Republicans trying to do that more. I think Donald Trump really was the first to do it on jobs, on the national stage and you're going to see more of that. Until we get an understanding this is why Republicans care so much about this issue, Democrats will pretend it is about hating Hispanics. Clearly it's not.

DONNA BRAZILE, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: You had a bipartisan bill in the Senate that had two thirds of the Senate supporting it. It is sitting right in the House. This bill was comprehensive in nature. Both Republicans and Democrats, Marco Rubio had his handprints on it before he took them off --

CARPENTER: Yes.

BRAZILLE: At least Senator Graham still believes in this comprehensive approach. I think the Democratic approach is the approach most Americans want us to choose. It's a threshold issue, but it's also a (inaudible). The way in which I think the Republicans discuss illegal immigration or undocumented workers tearing families apart, demonizing people, many of who are working very hard to become citizens, that's why it's a dangerous issue for Republicans and that's why it's an issue that I think people in the general election care about.

CARPENTER: I don't know a Republican campaigning on tearing families apart. There's much more support for stopping the flow of illegal immigration than tying that together with permanent legal status.

ANA NAVARRO, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: So the bottom line is there is no consensus in the Republican Party when it comes to immigration. There is a faction that feels very strongly against illegal immigration. There is a faction that includes very powerful groups, like the chamber of commerce, that includes a lot of evangelicals and Christian voters that do support immigration reform.

Also, you know, I said election night 2012, Mitt Romney self-deported from the White House. I can tell you right now that unless Donald Trump and Ted Cruz find a way to make up the numbers they are going to lose with Hispanics, they can say bye-bye to 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue right now because they are going to wish they had the 27-percent of the Hispanic vote that Romney has got. They're not going to get close to that.

NIA-MALIKA HENDERSON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL REPORTER: It's not just Latino voters. Its African-American voters. Its Asian-American voters, they care about the issue, too. They're for immigration reform. So if you are in a state, like Ohio, it is more about the African-American vote than it is the Latino vote.

[00:35:00]

DAVID AXELROD, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: The Asian point is interesting because in 2012, Asian voters went 75-percent for Barack Obama, and a lot of it had to do with the reaction to the nativist rhetoric in the Republican Party. Look, we've talked about this before, the Republican Party impaneled a group to look at their loss in 2012, do an autopsy, and what they concluded was that they had to be more forward leaning on immigration reform; that they had to reach out to younger voters; that they had to reach out to women and avoid women, some of these women's health issues, Planned Parenthood, which was an issue last time. It seems like all the things that this document said the Party shouldn't do, the Party is doing.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Right, and it's not only --

JEFFREY LORD, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: This is -- this is -- if I could say it, to me, this is the argument that's been going on in the Republican Party; forget immigration, for the last, what, 60 or 80 years. This is Thomas E. Dewey. This is Mitt Romney and George Romney and Nelson Rockefeller. This is what Ronald Reagan used to call Fraternal Order Republicanism, that, you know, it is all about getting along and being social.

COOPER: This is the Kasich/Cruz argument that happened tonight.

LORD: Correct. Correct, and it is all tied in together. This is what is frustrating for conservatives because they feel at the end of the day you've got republicans that really aren't there. It's not just on immigration; it's on the economy, it's on all these other issues and moving them left.

MICHAEL SMERCONISH, CNN HOST, "SMERCONISH": But, Jeff, it's not just an ideological debate. It is a demographic debate. I'm doing this from memory, but I'm pretty secure in the facts. George Herbert Walker Bush got 59-percent of the White vote when he was elected president, and it earned him 426 electoral votes. Mitt Romney got the exact same percentage of the White vote, 59-percent, and drew either 202 or 206, less than half. So that's what dependence on the White vote gets you in the modern era. You just can't win the White House.

GLORIA BORGER, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL ANALYST: To talk to demographics, also, the country is changing. One of the things Marco Rubio was talking tonight, and he got in a fight with Rand Paul about it, was the expansion the of child tax credits. This is a big issue for Rubio. He was very passionate in talking about it. He said family is the most important institution. We care about families. I want to do it. Rand Paul said to him, how can you be a conservative and propose something like that, that adds a trillion dollars to the deficit or its a trillion dollar expenditure? So that argument is also front and center in the Republican Party, about spending and how you spend your money, about immigration. One of the things this debate did tonight was kind of just lay it out there for Republican voters because they are going to have a choice --

NAVARRO: I think you're absolutely right, and I give these candidates a lot of credit for sticking to their convictions and sticking to their guns.

BORGER: Exactly.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'll say that.

NAVARRO: There is a huge diversity of thought in the Republican Party, when it comes to a lot of policy issues. It's not just immigration

BORGER: Right.

NAVARRO: It's so, so many. And I think that as voters we are getting the ability to see the stark contrast --

COOPER: Between them?

NAVARRO: -- of what they are offering.

COOPER: We're going to take another quick break. We're going to have more from our panel. A clash between Rand Paul and Donald Trump, things got heated. The question is, did they stick to the facts? Tom Foreman has a Reality Check ahead.

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[00:40:00]

COOPER: Welcome back. For more than two hours tonight the eight top Republican Presidential Candidates faced-off in Milwaukee in their fourth debate. They covered, certainly, a lot of ground, from minimum wage to taxes to trade deals and immigration. At times they clashed, disagreeing with each other forcefully. The question is, when the debate heated up, did they stick to the facts? Tom Foreman is here with a quick Reality Check on one of those confrontations. Tom?

FOREMAN: Anderson, one of the hardest confrontations of the night came when Donald Trump took exception to the Transpacific Partnership Trade Deal and Rand Paul took exception to Donald Trump. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: The TPP is a horrible deal. It is a deal that is going to lead to nothing but trouble. It's a deal that was designed for China to come in, as they always do, through the back door, and totally take advantage of everyone.

SEN. RAND PAUL (R-KY), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Hey, Gerard, you know, we might want to point out China's not part of this deal.

GERARD BAKER, EDITOR-IN-CHIEF, "WALL STREET JOURNAL": True. That's true.

MARIA BARTIROMO, ANCHOR, FOX BUSINESS NETWORK: That's right.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FOREMAN: Yes, China was very specifically left out of this deal. Part of the plan here was that by leaving China out, it would blunt their ability to use their massive economy to push around smaller nations with smaller economies. So what is Trump talking about here? We were tempted to say that what he said was just false but we're going to call it true but misleading because he did talk a little bit about currency manipulation, in the fine print of his statement, saying maybe it opens the door for that. What he said was very questionable.

What Rand Paul, however, said was absolutely true in this exchange. You can find out more about this and many more of them by going to our website, cnn.com/reality check. You can get some more information there; but, absolutely, Anderson, one of the sharpest smack-downs of the night, except, of course, what you are hearing from your own panel there.

COOPER: All right, Tom, thanks very much. Now a reality check from the debate itself and how the moderators did. You'll recall the complaints about the last debate, the CNBC debate. You might also recall what Donald Trump said just a few moments ago in the Spin Room. He called the whole event, in his words, "elegant."

Brian Stelter is CNN's Senior Media Correspondent. He is in Milwaukee. Brian, it's really the RNC. I talked to Sean Spicer earlier today, he seemed very pleased, as well.

BRIAN STELTER, CNN SENIOR MEDIA CORRESPONDENT: Absolutely. The consensus here is that, even among Fox's competitors, Fox had a much better night than, CNBC did. Now that is a low bar, let's be honest. There was a low bar set by the CNBC debate because reviews were pretty unanimously bad. On the other hand, tonight, what I am hearing from some journalists is they wish there had been tougher questions and maybe too many softballs from the Fox moderators, that maybe they went a little too easy on these candidates and didn't follow up enough. Now, that all said, it made for a debate where we heard a lot from the candidates, where they had a lot of talk time. You look at the talk time for all these eight candidates, they have all got at least nine minutes, some ten, 11, 12, 13 minutes. The moderators were lenient on these men and women. They let them speak. They didn't encourage too much actual back and forth. These were mostly interview-style questions but it was a success for Fox Business. The reviews will be mostly positive, I think, come morning.

[00:45:00]

Certainly the campaigns here, the candidates and their aides, are happy with how they were treated.

COOPER: It was interesting Brian because there were a number of opportunities where it was very clear that had the moderators wanted to, they could have turned -- you know, one candidate said something, they could have turned another candidate who's been very publicly, on the record, raising questions. For instance, Neil Cavuto asked Dr. Carson about his biography. Had he wanted to, he could have gone to Donald Trump, who, over the last several days of the campaign trail, has been critical, raising questions about Carson, to try to see if they wanted to -- if they were looking to get a fight going he could have very easily done that --

STELTER: Yes.

COOPER: -- turned to Donald Trump. They clearly made a decision, probably even before this began, they weren't going to do that, most likely because they wanted this to be in stark contrast to the CNBC debate.

STELTER: Yes, it that was a clear choice by the moderators and by the producers. There is some personal drama here. Maria Bartiromo, one of the moderators, used to work at CNBC. Roger Ailes, who runs Fox, used to run CNBC. There was a desire to show CNBC how to have a great debate, and by that standard I think the Fox folks feel very confident tonight. They feel like they had a very good night.

I think it's a reminder these debates are for GOP primary voters. The Democrats who were watching were probably yelling at the TV because they want more follow-up and because they want tougher questioning at a certain point; but for primary voters, for the GOP base watching the debate, those viewers tend to be happy with how it goes because they see their candidates being respected in front of what is likely 10 million viewers. These debates, as we talked about Anderson, have extraordinarily high viewership thanks to Donald Trump. That's a trend that will continue with this one.

COOPER: All right, Brian Stelter, appreciate it; thanks very much. We've got to take another quick break. When we come back, I want to go to our panel for their final thoughts on the night.

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[00:50:00]

COOPER: All right, we are back with our panel to get some final thoughts. Michael, let's start with you. SMERCONISH: We haven't said much about Rand Paul. I wouldn't call it

a breakout moment but I thought he had a good night tonight and I thought that he was a chip off the old block. He really has not run in the shadow of his father, Ron Paul, who really has a cult-like following, but he was much more the isolationist tonight and didn't push back when Marco Rubio called him such. I thought that was significant.

COOPER: Interesting. David?

AXELROD: I think that the trend lines we have seen will continue; and what struck me tonight about this debate is that there are two candidates who have very distinctive messages that seem very strategic and throughout through. That is Rubio and Cruz. I think they are going to continue to be factors in this race, bigger and bigger as time goes on.

COOPER: So you really see, even though they are polling at 12- percent, you see them rising significantly and you see Trump and Carson falling.

AXELROD: That's the predicate; now, you know, they have defied gravity for a long time here.

COOPER: Right. I guess I just don't understand why would Donald Trump all of a sudden fall off the map?

AXELROD: I don't think he will fall off the map. My question, and Jeffrey may have a better notion of this -- I don't think if he star -- I think he has a core, and that core is probably about half of what he has now, that will never leave him. But, is he going to be satisfied being second or third, losing primaries, losing caucuses? I don't think his gestalt will allow for that. So, I think he could leave the race if he doesn't continue to lead it.

COOPER: All right, Nia?

HENDERSON: I think that is right, Marco Rubio and Ted Cruz. I do think there's some sort of warning signs emerging, in terms of Marco Rubio, not only on immigration reform, on this Child Tax Credit as well, and on this idea of what whether he is a real conservative. Also, in terms of his debate presentation, I think he is good at talking points and making -- you know, saying talking points with a great deal of conviction, but often times if you go back and read what he said there's not much there. There's mention of his family, there's a restatement of whatever the question was. I think, you know, Ted Cruz is a fantastic debater. I think if you get Ted Cruz and Marco Rubio on a debate

stage that would be something to see.

COOPER: Interesting. Gloria?

BORGER: I don't know where Kasich goes now. I think Kasich has a general election appeal, but within the Republican Party he's fighting the fight he's always fought and he seems to be on the losing side of that. COOPER: Interesting. Amanda?

CARPENTER: You know, if this race comes down to Senator Cruz and Marco Rubio, that would just be an overwhelming victory for the grassroots movement in America, which got these guys elected, over the will of the Washington establishment, with the backing of people like my former boss Ted Cruz, the Club For Growth, these people that have been fighting the Republican Washington machine for so long and that just would represent a new era for the Republican Party.

COOPER: Interesting. Ana?

NAVARRO: Look, man, if you are going to have us up until 1:00 in the morning, you better give me something more than water in this cup. We are going to start to protest here.

I think it was a very good debate, a substantial debate. I think Republican voters are getting an opportunity to see diverse policy proposals, diverse personalities on that stage. I think the lesser, the fewer candidates was an improvement. I think it was a good night for Jeb Bush because it was a make or break night for Jeb Bush and he lives to fight another day. He needs to improve. He needs to build on this, but he now has a chance to do so. The road would have gotten way bumpier if he had not been able to deliver tonight. I think he did.

For Marco Rubio, for Ted Cruz, they are both expert debaters and I think they were consistently so tonight.

COOPER: Jeffrey?

LORD: My last thought, a little different I think from everybody else's. Donald Trump has made a big deal about veterans. It is the morning of Veteran's Day.

COOPER: Right.

LORD: None of us would be here to be able to do this, much less would the people on the stage be able to do it if it hadn't been for those folks, and I think we owe them a debt of thanks.

COOPER: That is absolutely true.

BRAZILLE: I agree with you on that. 1 million Veterans will benefit if we raise the wage. The Republicans, again tonight, failed to understand how important this issue is to average Americans who need to have their wages lifted.

[00:55:00]

On that note, Ben Carson will continue to be vetted. Tonight he said 80-percent of Black youth are unemployed; that is not true. It has gone down, which is -- we are all grateful for that, to about 20- percent. It is still high, but I doubt very seriously these young African-Americans, male and female, would want to work for a sub- standard wage as Ben Carson said. So, he needs to be vetted and he will be vetted.

One last thing, we talked a lot this elegant evening about a lot of things, but we didn't talk about the improving economy under President Obama. So I just still want to give President Obama and those 13 million jobs a shout-out because I'm sitting next to these people.

COOPER: I want to thank you for joining us and staying up late with us. That does it, our debate coverage continues after this break.

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