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Bush 41 Takes Aims at Son's Top Aides; Obama, Netanyahu to Restart Security Talks; New Attacks from Carson Over Media Scrutiny. Aired 6-7p ET

Aired November 8, 2015 - 18:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:00:56] POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: Top of the hour. I'm Poppy Harlow in New York. Thank you so much for being with me.

This hour, former President George W. Bush will take the stage in a forum in Dallas. He's expected to address some of the really surprising and candid comments that his father made about his own son's administration. Former President George H.W. Bush making the comments in a new biography about his life destiny and power. In it, Bush 41 slams two of the most notable figures from his son's administration, Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld.

Our Jamie Gangel recently sat down with Jon Meacham, who wrote the book. Watch.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

GEORGE H.W. BUSH, FORMER PRESIDENT: I accept your nomination for president.

JAMIE GANGEL, CNN SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): This is George Herbert Walker Bush unleashed, sharing his most private thoughts on everything from his time in office to his family. --

GEORGE W. BUSH, FORMER PRESIDENT: This administration is not going to rest.

GANGEL (voice-over): -- to his son's presidency.

JON MEACHAM, GEORGE H.W. BUSH BIOGRAPHER: He handed over four years of diaries in the White House with no strings attached.

GANGEL (on camera): And he said to you --

MEACHAM: Call 'em like you see 'em. Let the -- you're going to sort it out.

GANGEL (voice-over): Among the many revelations, Bush 41 is bluntly critical of the men who served his son in the White House. He calls Vice President Dick Cheney "Iron Ass" and former Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld an "arrogant" fellow. But perhaps the biggest surprise, Bush is critical of his son for his

hot rhetoric.

(on camera): We've never heard him criticized his son before as president.

MEACHAM: Right.

GANGEL: Why do you think he went public now?

MEACHAM: I think with the distance of history, he believed so strongly in the fact that force and diplomacy have to be complementary, not competitive that I think he wanted to put on the record that he doesn't think the president has accomplished very much by swaggering. They should be strong but they don't need to be needlessly provocative.

GANGEL: So, is this a father worried about his son's policy being criticized, not being right? Is there -- is there a father/son here?

MEACHAM: There's always a father/son thing here. Of course. I mean, how could there not be.

GANGEL: Was George W. Bush at all defensive about the criticism from his father?

MEACHAM: He was surprised by it. I think it's safe to say, he said, dad never said any of this to me, either during the presidency or after. He said he never would have said, "Hey, you've got to rein in Cheney, he's going to ruin your administration. And anyway, I disagree with him. These were my policies."

He knew that his father's style was such that he would never say these things directly to him, which is in and of itself fascinating.

GANGEL (voice-over): In addition to the president's diaries, Meacham was given access to Barbara Bush's diaries and other insights include that Nancy Reagan did not seem to like Barbara Bush. He told his diary, quote, "Frankly, I think she is jealous of her."

There is a blunt assessment of Bill Clinton as a draft dodger and a liar. And Meacham writes the Bushes were, quote, "horrified" by the Monica Lewinsky scandal.

But later, Bush acknowledges he couldn't help but like the guy.

(on camera): Do you think it's a genuine friendship?

MEACHAM: For George H.W. Bush I think it is.

GANGEL: And for Bill Clinton?

MEACHAM: You never know, do you?

GANGEL (voice-over): That said, the Bushes don't seem to have the same warm feelings toward Hillary Clinton, calling her, quote, "militant and pro liberal".

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HARLOW: Much more of Jaime Gangel's fascinating interview with Jon Meacham on "NEW DAY" tomorrow morning and, of course, we will be discussing and bring you the discussion live tonight between former President George W. Bush and Jon Meacham. That is in just about 30 minutes time.

Well, there are few political relationships among allies that are quite as icy as the one between U.S. President Barack Obama and Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu.

[18:05:05] But could things change tomorrow?

Netanyahu making his first trip back to Washington after his unsuccessful bid in that speech to Congress to quash the Iranian nuclear deal. He will meet with the president in an effort to repair the strained relationship.

But as Oren Liebermann reports, there is a lot to overcome.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

OREN LIEBERMANN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Just when you thought it couldn't get worse, another blow to the already strained relations between Prime Minister Netanyahu and President Obama. Days before the two leaders meet in Washington, revelations that Netanyahu's new appointment as media adviser Ran Baratz accused Obama of anti-Semitism on Facebook back in March in the run-up to the Iran framework agreement, and once said U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry had a future in stand-up comedy. Baratz apologized and Netanyahu said he will, quote, "clarify the matter", but the damage was done.

A seven-year relationship between Netanyahu and Obama has only grown worse in recent months. Earlier this year, Netanyahu made not what critics called an unprecedented intervention in U.S. foreign policy, speaking before Congress without a White House invitation, and criticized Obama's signature Iran nuclear deal, sparking a very public and at times acrid feud between the leaders.

GIL HOFFMAN, JERUSALEM POST POLITICAL ANALYST: The importance of this meeting is that it passes without further skirmishes between Netanyahu and Obama that are harmful to the U.S./Israel relationship and to both countries.

LIEBERMANN: Both leaders have tried to downplay the frosty relationship saying the cooperation between the countries is far more important. Hours before his scheduled departure to Washington, Netanyahu is saying this meeting will be all about the all-important American aid to Israel. The U.S. gives Israel some $3 billion a year in military aid and that will soon include America's latest fighter jet, the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter.

Kerry highlighted this aid to Israel when he spoke in Philadelphia in September in defense of the Iran deal. But that military aid is set to expire in 2018 and Netanyahu could use this chance to push for a bigger aid package.

As for the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, a big issue for Kerry, a top White House adviser says there probably won't be any peace administration's before the end of Obama's time in office.

Oren Liebermann, CNN, Jerusalem.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HARLOW: Peter Beinart is with me. He is a CNN political commentator and also a contributor for "Atlantic Media."

You say, Peter, that President Obama has thrown in the towel on the Palestinian State, Netanyahu has lost Iran. OK. Where do we go from here?

PETER BEINART, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I just don't think either man has any particular incentive for a big fight here. Netanyahu wants to show his people that although he lost on Iran, he's going to get a consolation prize, and he probably is going to get a big one in terms of a big U.S. arms package. And Obama, I think, as part of winning that Iran deal, promised Democrats in Congress who supported on Iran -- him on Iran that he would try to reconcile with Netanyahu and he is. The U.S. is probably going to give Israel this big aid package and also he's probably not going to push something at the United Nations on Palestinian statehood. So, it seems to me this is teed up for reconciliation.

HARLOW: But it's interesting because you're still like 14, 15 months out before the end of the president's term. And I want to play for viewers what White House Press Secretary Josh Earnest said on Friday, really acknowledging the unlikelihood of reaching any sort of two- state solution. Let's roll it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOSH EARNEST, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: Leaders of the Israeli people and the Palestinian people are ultimately going to be responsible for making the difficult decisions that will finally resolve this conflict. And it's been the U.S. policy for quite sometime now, a policy that Democratic and Republican administrations have supported, to try to bring about a two-state solution. And, you know, based on the comments of the prime minister of Israel, that seems not likely to occur over the course of the next 15 months.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: Do you see that as defeatist? You know, a lot of people would say, it's not over until it's over.

BEINART: It's absolutely defeatist. But the reality is that for the Obama administration, Iran was a top priority. They're willing to fight Benjamin Netanyahu tooth and nail on Iran. They're not willing to fight him on a Palestinian state. He doesn't want a Palestinian state any time soon. Members of Congress have supported Obama on Iran don't want him to fight Netanyahu on a Palestinian state. And so, even though Barack Obama I think genuinely does support a

Palestinian state, he just thinks it's too heavy a lift at this point.

So, frankly, Palestinians get the short end of the stick because for the United States, Iran deal is more important.

HARLOW: Many would look at the Middle East right now and, obviously, this is, you know, subjectively people would look at it very differently. But you've at least got some who say it looks worse now than when President Obama was inaugurated.

What can he do in the time he has left in office on that front most effectively do you think, Peter?

BEINART: If there is one more play in the Obama presidency on the Middle East, it's towards moving towards a diplomatic deal on Syria.

[18:10:05] Syria has been the massive gaping humanitarian wound of his presidency. It's been an utter, utter catastrophe.

And now that the U.S. has some kind of working relationship with Iran, there is at left some sliver of possibility that the U.S., Iran, Russia and the Saudis might be able to cobble together some deal. Is it likely? Absolutely not. But my guess is that's where the administration will put its focus because that would be a really important achievement.

HARLOW: It would. We'll see if it happens.

Peter Beinart, nice to have you on. Thank you.

BEINART: Thank you.

HARLOW: Coming up next, scrutiny over details of Ben Carson's life as he told them in his book. Has Ben Carson in attack mode right now against the media?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BEN CARSON (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: This is just stupid, and I mean, if our media is no better than investigating than that, it's sick.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: And just moments from now we will hear from former President George W. Bush. He is responding to a new biography about his father with quotes from the 41st president bashing key members of his son's cabinet. We'll bring you that live.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARLOW: Republican front-runner Ben Carson unleashing a flurry of fresh attacks against the media, calling the coverage of his campaign, quote, "sick and stupid". He appeared on three Sunday talk shows, and also, he spoke with CNN, and he slammed journalists and defended himself against claims that he exaggerated his life story, like when he said he tried to stab someone when he was younger.

Carson tells CNN the attention is actually boosting his campaign.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CARSON: It's not particularly getting under my skin, obviously it's helping me. But I simply cannot sit still and watch unfairness.

[18:15:00] I am always going to call that out when I see it.

Obviously, the "Politico" thing was a hit job, no question about that. The kind of investigations that were done, talking to the wrong people, not going to Wilson Junior High School where the lock incident occurred. But talking to other people and saying, 'See we can't find them" -- I mean this is just stupid, and I mean if our media is no better than investigating than that, it's sick.

You know, "The Wall Street Journal" thing coming out and saying, "There's no such course, obviously this is all fabricated", how come -- with all their tools they can't find it, but we can? That doesn't make any sense, does it?

The burden of proof is not going to be on me to corroborate everything I have ever talked about in my life, because once I start down that road, every single day, from now until the election, you're going to be spending your time doing that and we have much more important things to do.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: And here is what Carson said earlier today when he spoke with CBS "Face the Nation."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CARSON: There is no question I'm getting special scrutiny. There are a lot of people who are very threatened and they have seen the recent head to head polling against Hillary and how well I do and, you know, they're worried. There is no question about it. And every single day, every other day, or every week, you know, they are going to come out with, "Well, you said this when you were 13. And you did this." And the whole point is to distract the populace, distract me.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: Carson also thanked a, quote, "biased media" yesterday for helping his campaign raise $3.5 million in the last week.

And while Ben Carson was in Puerto Rico, Donald Trump was live from New York. The Republican front runner for then nomination hosted "Saturday Night Live" and he started with a little help from his friend.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: They've done so much to ridicule me over the years. This show has been a disaster for me. Look at this guy.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Great, great, great, great, great. Isn't he fantastic?

(APPLAUSE)

I've got to say, you're going a great job. In fact, I think the show got better by about 2 billion percent!

(LAUGHTER)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In fact, they just told me, other Donald, they just told me it is very interesting, that new that I'm here, this is actually the best monologue in "SNL" history. Can you believe that? Pretty good.

TRUMP: Yes, that's pretty good. That's pretty good. Ay, ay, ay, look at this.

(APPLAUSE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You think you're this terrific person. You think you're this, you think you're that, ba, ba, ba. You're being very naive, and quite frankly, you're fired.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: Trump's big night came with controversy. An activist group offering $5,000 from anyone in the audience who would yell out Trump is a racist. Well, Trump was heckled, but not in the way you would expect.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LARRY DAVID, COMEDIAN: You're a racist!

TRUMP: Who the hell -- oh, yes. I knew this was going to happen. Who is that?

DAVID: Trump is a racist!

(APPLAUSE)

TRUMP: It's Larry David. What are you doing, Larry?

DAVID: I heard if I yelled that, they would give me $5,000.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: Meantime, just outside, of 30 Rock, the group that set up that $5,000 payment, held their rally against Trump's appearance.

Coming up next, actresses in Hollywood fed up as they should be with getting -- well, not the same pay as their male co-stars, second-rate salaries. Next, I will speak live with the director of a fantastic new film "Suffragette" which depicts women's fight for the right to the vote. We will talk about this battle and why things are still so bad in 2015.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:22:47] HARLOW: Coming to a theater near you this Thanksgiving, "Suffragette", it is a film that vividly depicts the fierce and often violent battle for women's right to vote in Britain at the turn of the 20th century.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Women should not exercise judgment in political affairs.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If we allow women to vote, it'll be the loss of social structure.

(SHOUTING)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: So have we come a long way since then? Yes. But not far enough. Gender inequality is still very much alive and well today, particularly in Silicon Valley and in Hollywood.

Women in the film industry continue to push for more diversity in roles, both in front of and behind the camera. Just this weekend, actress Sharon Stone said this in an event in Miami.

"After 'Basic Instinct,' no one wanted to pay me. I remember sitting in my kitchen with my manager and crying and saying I'm not going to work until I get paid. I still got paid so much less than any man."

"Suffragette" screenwriter Abi Morgan joins me now.

Thank you so much for being here.

ABI MORGAN, "SUFFRAGETTE" SCREENWRITER: Thanks for having me, Poppy.

HARLOW: I'm so glad that famous stars, these women in Hollywood, are talking about this now, from Jennifer Lawrence to Reese Witherspoon, to what you just heard from Sharon Stone. How much of the current debate over this was in your mind as you wrote "Suffragette" and how you approach the film.

MORGAN: I think it's really exciting for us when we worked for this movie. It took a long time. And that was for several reasons. It's a film produced, directed and written by women, and I think those stories sometimes get -- take time to get on the screen. And so, subsequently, as we were writing and developing it, there was this changing wave. I think the digital age and social media made us all start to connect with the pay gap, really, and of the fight for equality of pay across the board. HARLOW: I think that's a very polite way to say it, right? Because

this was -- so much of the staff on this film as women that it was tough to get on the screen. But -- I mean, translate that for us, because the way that they Carey Mulligan put it, the star of the film, she said, "A woman threw herself in front after king's horse in 1913 and changed the course of history. No one in 100 years felt this story was worthy of the big screen."

[18:25:03] Are you talking about a difficulty in financing to get this done?

MORGAN: I'm talking about keeping it -- keeping the size, the breadth, the ambition of the film. I think we were very fortunate, in terms of people wanting to finance this film, it had taken several years. It's the first motion picture about the U.K. suffragette movement. But it was about keeping its epic quality.

You know, I think the film focuses on five key historical moments in suffragette history and it was very key to us that we were able to be expansive. We were able to be ambitious with this film. So, it was retaining the budget and ensuring we could have no boundaries really and the way that I think men often approach filmmaking.

HARLOW: Absolutely. So, just four years ago, I read, Abi, that someone approached you and asked if you were a feminist. And I'm interested in sort of how you responded then and how you would respond now.

MORGAN: I remember -- I'm embarrassed now. I remember shrugging my shoulders and saying, I don't think like to think of myself as a feminist, just a writer.

And now, absolutely. Having worked on this film and having reflected on my work, everything from, you know, projects about sex trafficking, through to arrange marriages in the Bangladeshi community, through to "Suffragette" today. You know, I've always focused on female-led stories. And so, my feminism is absolutely at the heart of my work.

So, I'm very easily and comfortably sitting in my feminism now and I'm embarrassed I ever said I wasn't. But I think it also engages with the kind of growing desire to reengage with the phrase, feminism survived from decade to decade. And, you know, it brings out your inner suffragette when you start writing in a film and working in the film about the movement.

HARLOW: Jennifer Lawrence, of course, made headlines when she published this essay about Hollywood's pay gap, and she revealed she was paid less than her male co-stars. Bradley Cooper, one of her co- stars, came out and responded publicly saying, "I'm going to reveal my salary so that all my female co-stars know if they are getting paid fairly or not."

I'm interested, Abi, in how incumbent you think it is on men and male stars to do the same in order to force change. That it can't just be the women speaking out. MORGAN: Yes. I mean, I had a great phrase. I was just in a panel

about equality in the industry and someone just said, hey, guys, when you get to the top, send the escalator down. And I really feel like that. It was great to hear Bradley say that. This is a two-gender conversation.

You know, I've been fortunate with brilliant women, producers, commissioners, financiers, I've worked with. But I've worked with some very good men and that they trust -- they have daughters, they have sisters, they have mothers, they want to be ambitious for those members of their family, they want to be ambitious for the next generation of women.

So, I think when somebody like Bradley Coopers comes out and supports the brilliant Jennifer Lawrence, then I think it does -- you know, I think we all have a responsibility to be as transparent as we can on this issue, because a hundred years on and we still don't have equality. I mean, it's shocking.

HARLOW: Yes, it is absolutely shocking and we all say we want better for our children, then we have to be a part of that, men and women alike.

Abi Morgan, thank you, and congratulations on the film.

MORGAN: Thanks so much. Thanks for having me.

HARLOW: Of course. For all of you watching, "Suffragette" is in some theaters and select cities right now. It will release nationwide on Thanksgiving.

All right. Take a look at live pictures. We are moments from former President George W. Bush speaking to the author of his father's new biography book that really slammed two key Bush administration officials, accusing them of failing the president, his own son. How will the former president respond? We'll find out.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:32:26]

HARLOW: All right. Bottom of the hour, I'm Poppy Harlow in New York.

You are looking right now at live pictures of the Bush Presidential Center in Dallas, Texas, where former President George W. Bush will sit down with the author of his father's much talked about biography. In the book "Destiny and Power," the elder Bush criticizes his son for failing to rein in Vice President Dick Cheney and Defense chief Donald Rumsfeld. Of Cheney he says, quote, "He had his own empire there and marched to his own drummer." And of Rumsfeld that he, quote, "served the president badly."

Joining me now to discuss all, CNN Politics reporter MJ Lee and CNN senior political analyst and former adviser to four presidents, including Bush 41, David Gergen. David, let's get to your op-ed. It's fascinating on CNN.com. And let

me read part of it, you write, "My experience has been that George H.W. does not hold grudges in politics. He is one of the best at forgiving and forgetting. What this suggests to me is that the wounds from the Cheney-Rumsfeld axis and what then befell his son run much, much deeper than we know, but I suspect there is an even deeper motive at work here, that is H.W.'s desire to answer the demands of history."

Tell me more.

DAVID GERGEN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: I think both things are true that George H.W. rarely, rarely goes after anybody in politics. He's one of the most forgiving you'll ever meet. He does hold grudges occasionally but he rarely talks about them. And so for him to come forward now, there must have been something deeply boiling inside him about this. He wanted to get it out. I think he wanted to even some scores while he was still on the scene.

But presidents also have, as a fraternity, they want to leave their story in history. Every president since -- Franklin Roosevelt died quickly, suddenly, never left a memoir. But presidents since have kept records, they kept taping system, they got one thing or another to leave and tell history what it was like. And George H.W. has never really done that. And this was I think -- he spent a lot of time with Jon Meacham, a respected writer, telling him, pouring out his soul. And so that's why there's a lot of interest in this book.

I think it is his version of his place in history. Obviously there'll be one side on many ways. But I think it will come -- yes, as we've seen from the excerpts, it'll be heartfelt.

HARLOW: All right. David, let me just jump in here for a second. And stay with me as we listen to the former president, George W. Bush, speaking.

GEORGE W. BUSH, 43RD PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I think people might be interested in your background. Where were you raised. College.

JON MEACHAM, GEORGE H.W. BUSH BIOGRAPHER: Yes, sir. I grew up in Chattanooga, Tennessee, on a civil war battlefield, Missionary Ridge.

[18:35:03] And so for me history was always a real thing, it was a tactile thing. I can still find Menet balls from the Battle of Missionary Ridge in our yard. I went to some great schools, I went to an Episcopal Montessori, which is kind of redundant when you think about it. I went to the Macaulay School, which managed to produce both Pat Robertson and Ted Turner. So we have a foot in every camp.

(LAUGHTER)

MEACHAM: Then I went to -- then I went to Sewanee, University of the South, which is best understood as a combination of "Downton Abbey" and "Deliverance," all --

(LAUGHTER) MEACHAM: All put together. But growing up, I read a lot of -- just loved biographies of great men. William Manchester's "The Last Lion" was a hugely important book for me. And I love politics. My grandfather was a judge in Tennessee. He used to have coffee with all the local political guys every morning downtown. And so I would go down there at a very young age which may explain why I'm quite as strange as I am.

And the district attorney would be there, the senators would come by. It was kind of the courthouse group in Chattanooga. And so for me, politicians were always real people. And what always -- as I went into journalism after Sewanee, which my grandfather pointed out, I went into print journalism, which was kind of like being the last rat to board a sinking ship, which I thought was unkind but accurate, ultimately.

What I always wanted to do was write about these great events but they were great events that were shaped by people. And what impresses me most about politicians and one of my many character flaws is I like politicians, is that we all know that the folks in your line of work are fallible. You make mistakes. But you do great things. And you bend history. And what I always try to find when I write a book about someone is what is that moment of transcendence, when all of the human frailties are still there. But you manage to rise above them to put the country and the world on a better course. And that fundamental human drama is why I do what I do.

BUSH: So you've written books about Jefferson, Jackson, Roosevelt. All dead.

MEACHAM: That's true.

(LAUGHTER)

BUSH: Then you decide to write one about somebody who is still alive.

MEACHAM: Yes, very much so.

BUSH: What's the difference?

MEACHAM: You can't call the others to check things out.

(LAUGHTER)

MEACHAM: The other three also didn't have sons who happens to also have nuclear authority. So --

(LAUGHTER)

MEACHAM: We can talk about that in a second, if you want. You know what the difference was? I always feared that because your dad was so generous with his access, because your mom was so generous, because you were so generous, I worry that I would have a hard time throwing a punch if I had to. But because of the ethos that your family created around this project, which was, you call them like you see them. We're not looking for hagiography, we're not looking for -- you know,

this is a portrait, this is history, not journalism. And because of that, and it emanated, I think, from your father, the problem became, I never met Jackson, which is a good thing. He might have shot me. And I never met Jefferson. I never met FDR. I never met Churchill. And so when you're writing, and you know this, you've done two great books.

If you're writing about someone you don't know, you don't know what you're missing. If I tried to describe what it's like to have dinner with your dad or sitting around with your father, and I wrote that section and I would think, you know, I didn't quite -- did I quite get it exactly right? Because as you know, your father has what I call a quiet persistent charisma. But he is no JFK. He's no Ronald Reagan.

And yet he became president of the United States because person after person at every stage in his life, almost anyone who met him with some exceptions we can damn near count on one hand, believed that he was someone in whose hands the affairs of the nation and the world would be safe. And that's a particular kind of gift, a particular kind of charisma, that doesn't fit into the usual categories. And so your dad created a much more difficult literary task in writing about them, which you know because you did it.

BUSH: Yes, but mine was a little different perspective.

MEACHAM: It was. Yes.

BUSH: Starting with, you were never president.

(LAUGHTER)

MEACHAM: And the world is a lot better off because of it. I can assure you.

BUSH: Yes.

[18:40:02] Margaret mentioned this, and that is that something I didn't really realize that he had kept a lot of diaries. He's spoken to his tape recorder for years?

MEACHAM: Years.

BUSH: Yes. And he gave you full access.

MEACHAM: Unconditional.

BUSH: So how did that happen?

(LAUGHTER)

BUSH: And that his sons had no idea he had diaries.

MEACHAM: Mr. President, you and I both come from a common gene pool, which is the wasp gene pool. So --

BUSH: Well, speak for yourself.

MEACHAM: A direct -- I don't know about you, but direct conversations are never a big thing in my family except for like, you know, where did the olives go for the martinis? You know that's -- when I was growing up, that's about as honest as we got sometimes.

I'm going to use a technical term, Mr. President, I hope you will forgive me. I begged. What I -- he kept diaries as U.N. ambassador, as RNC chairman. And then a little bit of a campaign diary in 1980 sporadically as vice president. He was very good in even -- in odd- numbered years because in even-numbered years, he was out campaigning. So he was on the road for congressional and Senate candidates.

And then starting on November 4th, 1986, he says, I'm beginning a diary about the biggest challenge of my life, the biggest mission of my life, I'm going to run for president. And it was the day they lost the Senate. And so it starts kind of dark. But he did this throughout the '88 campaign. Then as president, he missed a week or two maybe, but not many.

BUSH: Really?

MEACHAM: He would do it early in the morning. Sometimes up in the tree room, you used the same room as an office up in the residence. He would carry it around in his brief case. He would do it on Marine One. You can hear the blades of the helicopters. He'd do it on Air Force One. You could hear the engines. He would sometimes do it late at night, when he sounds just a step from the grave, just beaten down by the day. But what's so revealing about them is reading them alone is fascinating. And it's -- it is a unique historical document.

I told him at the time, and believe it unto this hour, that they're as important as John Quincy Adams' diaries were, which Quincy Adams kept throughout his whole life. Because it's as close as anyone except for the gentleman to my right is ever going to get be president because he's talking. He's not writing.

A close as anyone, except for the gentleman to my right, is ever going to get to being president. Because he is talking. He is not writing. The act of writing, you step back from it. This is a man who turned on the tape recorder and told the truth. As he is cogently incapable of not doing that. And even when he was having the worst possible day, even if Newt Gingrich had done something or if he'd read the newspaper --

BUSH: "Newsweek."

MEACHAM: "Newsweek."

BUSH: That's an inside joke.

MEACHAM: Yes, yes, yes. It's gracious of you, sir. Thank you.

(LAUGHTER)

BUSH: Welcome to Dallas. MEACHAM: Yes. Where are those olives?

BUSH: Yes.

(LAUGHTER)

MEACHAM: Even when he was having the worst possible day, he would talk himself back into the game. So he -- the night he lost, which I believe is the night that the 20th century ended, November 3rd, November 4th, 1992, he is sitting in Suite 271 of the Houstonian. Your mother's asleep. He can't sleep. It's a quarter after midnight. He gets up out of the bed. He goes into the living room. Turns on the tape recorder. And he basically says, they always said, I didn't get it. I didn't believe the pundits. I understand what the country is going through.

But what I don't get is how this generation doesn't understand duty, honor, country the way my generation did. I'm paraphrasing slightly.

(APPLAUSE)

MEACHAM: And those are tough words for a sitting president of the United States to say about his country. But then what does he do? He says, be strong, be gracious, finish strong. Don't show them that it hurts. Don't show them that it hurts. And what stunned me the most in listening to these diaries was this is one of the most emotional men who could ever have held that office. He won my heart in those diaries in 1986. Very early on when there's a scene in crack out, he's in Poland, he's on a mission from President Reagan.

And he's shown into a children's leukemia ward. And of course, your sister died of leukemia in 1953. And he is standing there and the press is behind him. All the cameras, all the microphones are behind him.

[18:45:09] And he realizes where he is. And he starts to cry. And he won't turn around because if he turns around with tears in his eyes, the story becomes about him, not about them. Now I know a lot of politicians and there are not a lot of them who would not have turned around. And tried to create some kind of moment. And he says, this poor little kid has this old man crying over him. But I just hope he knows that I love him.

That's George Herbert Walker Bush, and that's the George Herbert Walker Bush, as a biographer, I believe, was a sweet and noble man, far sweeter, far nobler than the country appreciated at that time. I think it's changing and I hope this book helps change that.

BUSH: Well, thank you.

(APPLAUSE)

BUSH: Maybe far sweeter than Mother.

(LAUGHTER)

BUSH: And you had access --

MEACHAM: If word gets to Houston, he said it.

(LAUGHTER)

BUSH: The reason I mentioned that is that you read her diaries.

MEACHAM: I did.

BUSH: I knew she was a diary keeper. Of course she didn't let any of us read her diaries.

MEACHAM: That's wise.

BUSH: So you might have been the first person to have read her diaries. Yes. What did you learn in that?

MEACHAM: I learned that -- this is an amazing historical document. It starts in 1948 when they go to Odessa. And when they went to Odessa, Mrs. Pierce, back in rye, thought they were going to Russia. It was the wrong Odessa. But it wasn't that far off. And literally Mrs. Pierce sent boxes of soap and detergent to her son-in-law and daughter, figuring they didn't have that in Texas. The first time your dad drove through Texas in the Studebaker, he stops at a local diner in Abilene. He orders chicken fried steak, not knowing if it was chicken fried like a steak or steak fried like a chicken. So he ordered a lone star so it didn't matter.

So there's one moment in the diary in 1948, you were 2. Maybe 1949. Where you were listening to Mother Goose records. She had just gotten --

BUSH: That's where it all started.

(LAUGHTER)

MEACHAM: Take that, Putin.

BUSH: Yes.

(CHEERS AND APPLAUSE)

MEACHAM: And you jabbed her in the leg with a knitting needle.

BUSH: Take that, Mother.

(LAUGHTER)

MEACHAM: What these diaries give you is an -- if you put an incredibly intelligent -- if you put an incredibly intelligent observant woman at the highest levels of American politics for half century, this is what you get. You have her first impressions of Texas politics. She said in 1963 of the John Birch Society down, which were very -- in Dallas and Houston, big forces, the nuts will never love him. She saw that about her husband in 1963. We have her account of the day of President Kennedy's assassination.

Incredibly moving. We have the first time she met the Reagans. And she points out how immensely attractive they both were, and saw that. Now she wasn't always quite as complimentary about everybody. I don't know if you've had any experience with that, Mr. President. But what it is, is an honest account of the events that shaped the way we live now.

If you want to understand the 1968 convention where your dad as a two- year congressman was in the running for vice president, you read this. If you want to understand what it was like to be married to the chairman of the Republican National Committee during Watergate, by the way, what's second prize, you read this. And what I learned is that she was the one who really kept the family going while George H.W. Bush, an immensely wonderful father, but as always in that generation, he was out there.

He was building an international business. You and I talked about this. What's your first memory of your dad, do you remember?

BUSH: Baseball.

[18:50:01] MEACHAM: Baseball. But otherwise, he was out there. He was in Kuwait. He was in Trinidad. He was in London raising money. He was in New York raising money to get that oil business going. And so -- and one of the several times that he cried in interviews with me, I mean, several, several times, sometimes our interviews were like the world's worst wasp-on-wasp therapy.

(LAUGHTER)

MEACHAM: He'd cry. I'd cry. You know, the Kleenex would run out. Poor Gene Beckwith, the chief of staff, would come and say, I can't leave you two alone.

(LAUGHTER)

MEACHAM: Was when I said, did you have any idea on January 6th, 1945, on that cold Saturday in the rye First Presbyterian Church, that you were marrying a woman who could move 37 times and endure what she endured in public life, like in raising a loving, stable family? And he burst into tears. And he said, no, I didn't know that, but I couldn't have done anything I did without her.

BUSH: Yes, interesting.

(APPLAUSE)

BUSH: So one of the things that amazed me is the book -- I'm trying to help you sell it.

MEACHAM: I appreciate that, sir.

BUSH: Yes.

(LAUGHTER) MEACHAM: It's an economic stimulus.

BUSH: Yes, it is.

(LAUGHTER)

BUSH: Personal. Tell them the story about losing the Senate race and going up to see Nixon and the job Nixon initially offered him. It really surprised me.

MEACHAM: Is that right? So he runs in 1970 for the second time for the Senate. It was supposed to be George H.W. Bush against Ralph Yarborough, which was going to be kind of -- a parallel race of what happened over in Tennessee with a young guy, a handsome young Republican like your father, against an aging liberal Al Gore Senior. That was what was going on in my home state. Over here, it was going to be George H.W. Bush against Yarborough again.

BUSH: That was Bill Brock.

MEACHAM: Bill Brock.

BUSH: Yes.

MEACHAM: Sorry. Yes, Bill Brock. And so got -- remember I said there's on one hand we could talk about folks that he didn't like. I think we could safely say Governor Conley was not high on the Bush Christmas card list. There are a few people you hadn't forgiven. And there's -- actually a lot of them live in Dallas come to think of it. One of them does. There's one in particular we don't have to talk about. But -- ears.

So but what happened was John Conley realized what was going on. Conley was smart as hell politician. He realizes what's going on, so he puts Lloyd Benson in the race. So suddenly if you read "The Dallas Morning News" all the clips from that era, two things jump out at you. One is George H.W. Bush was just one sexy guy. I mean, every story talks about how he had Kennedy's glamour, that the country club matrons would swoon over him. You know, just again and again it had this thing about his appeal.

Well, the papers all started writing, all right, now we have two tall war veterans who are pretty good looking who served in the House and in Texas in 1970, I don't have to tell the former governor, the advantage was for the Democrats. So he loses the race. Brock beats Gore Sr. that worked. Benson-Bush did not work because Benson was more conservative than Yarborough. Conley's move got Benson the nomination. There we go.

So Bush -- President Bush goes up to meet with Nixon. Someone has suggested the U.N. to him. Carl Charlie Bartlett. Old Washington guy. And he -- Bush started thinking about this. But when he goes in to see Nixon, Nixon has decided that he wants to make him an assistant to the president working for Bob Halderman. Again what second prize at this point. And so President Bush makes the case, he says, you know, I really think I could do more good for you at the U.N. Nobody's up there making the case for you. Nobody's supporting you.

And it was a brilliant, brilliant tactical argument because Nixon's looking at the son of Prescott Bush with whom he has served in the Senate when he was vice president. The polished son, the Ivy League son of a senator, and thinking, you know what, what Bush is saying is right. If he goes up there, he can make the case for me. I'm the grocer's son from Yorba Linda and having this more patrician figure is going to work for me in New York.

But all that thought process happens after he sent Halderman and Bush out to find Bush a White House office. Right as Watergate's breaking up. Right, beginning to -- the story's beginning at that point. And there was another element.

[18:55:11] So he calls him back and he says, you know what, I thought about this, I think you're right, we'll send you to the U.N. George Herbert Walker Bush had the shortest White House staff career of anyone. It was about 40 minutes by my count. But that helped him. But there was another wrinkle in there which is Nixon said here's another thing. Don't live on the 42nd floor apartment of the Waldorf Astoria where the U.N. ambassador lived. Go to Greenwich. Commute in, establish residency, and then vote, then run against Abe Ribikof, an ancient opponent Bush -- Prescott Bush opponent out in Connecticut for the Senate.

Nixon thought that Bush couldn't make it in the Senate down here but if he turned him into a Connecticut Republican, he might be able to beat Ribikof. And what's so wonderful about it and what I think speaks so much about George H.W. Bush's devotion to Texas and the fact that he raised his family here and built his business here, is at that point he thoroughly thought of himself as a Texan and he never bit on that, and you know better than I do, if a president of the United States suggests a pathway to the Senate, you tend to listen. You tend to think about that.

There's very little evidence, and this is all from your mother's diary. Very little evidence that he really took that seriously.

BUSH: You know, you made a very interesting point in the book about comparing his position on the U.N. in the '64 race.

MEACHAM: Yes.

BUSH: And then actually taking the position.

MEACHAM: There are three examples where your dad -- and the reason I call the book "Destiny and Power," plug alert. Is that OK? Where I believe that -- you and I have talked about this. From very early on, George H.W. Bush was the star of the family. That's your Aunt Nancy's line. When he was shot down on September 2nd, 1944, rescued after four hours in that life raft, remember, if the wind and the tide had been going toward Chichijima as opposed to away from it, Chichijima was a scene of terrible Japanese war crimes including cannibalism which led your dad to sometimes say to your mother, you know, I was almost an h'orderve.

(LAUGHTER)

MEACHAM: If the wind had been going another way, he might have -- hell, he might have been an entree. He was a tall guy. Yes. He's 6'2". So at that point your Aunt Nancy said, he was meant to be saved. Your father introduced him to the French ambassador in Washington in the 1950s saying, this is my son, George, he's going to be president of the United States one day.

BUSH: Grandfather.

MEACHAM: Grandfather. Sorry. Grandfather. Senator Bush. And in 1965, when he's lost the '64 race, but the Seventh District of Houston is coming into being, he has a fellow named Ross Baker who is thinking about challenging him in the primary.

BUSH: No relation to Jim.

MEACHAM: No relation to Jim. Or Ross Perot -- right.

(LAUGHTER)

MEACHAM: Yes. None of that. He goes to him and Baker says to him, well, I want to be a congressman, I think you're just using this as a steppingstone to the Senate. And George H.W. Bush says, no, no, I'm not using this as a steppingstone to the Senate. I want to be president.

This is 1965. He is 41 years old. He is yet to win a race except to be the Harris County chairman. But he had a sense of destiny, a word he doesn't particularly like, but it was a sense that he was meant to do great things. And what's so striking to me as a biographer, he's finding all these examples. Your other grandfather, Marvin Pierce, wrote a letter when he was at Yale to a friend who said, wouldn't surprise me at all if this son-in-law becomes president.

So people were talking about his -- the possibility of a pathway to the presidency as a possibility long before it became probable, which was a real revelation to me and which led me to see, sort of begin to see his career in a slightly different light. If you believe you're the best man for the job, and your dad unquestionably always believed that, then what you say and what you do on the campaign trail, and he told me once sitting on the porch at your rest house in Maine, politics is not a pure undertaking.

You have to say and do certain things that you might ingest badly to get to where you want to be. The test becomes, that's just business of politics. That's been true since the Athenians. What is important is what do you once you have that power.