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NEW DAY

Carson Doubles Down on Oregon Massacre Comments; Clinton Breaks with Obama on Trans-Pacific Trade Deal; How is Sanders Preparing for CNN Debate?; Massacre Gunman Discharged from Army after Suicide Attempt; Syria Launches Wide-scale Offensive Against Terror Groups. Aired 6-6:30a ET

Aired October 8, 2015 - 06:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DR. BEN CARSON (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: A shooter can only shoot one person at a time.

[05:58:56] JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Carson himself is taking new heat over his claim that he would try to fight back against a mass shooter.

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Frankly, I think he was treated very unfairly.

CARSON: I want to plant in people's minds what to do in a situation like this.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Breaking with President Obama, opposing his signature trade agreement.

HILLARY CLINTON (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I am not in favor of what I have learned about it.

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (D-VT), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I'm looking forward to a vigorous debate on the most important issues facing the country.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN ANCHOR: Cruise missiles fired from a warship light up the night sky.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Russia forcing a U.S. Plane to divert from a mission in Syria.

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: There is no agreement with the Russians on how both countries' pilots will operate in the skies.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ANNOUNCER: This is NEW DAY with Chris Cuomo, Alisyn Camerota, and Michaela Pereira.

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: Alisyn is very ticklish. But in other news, good morning. Welcome to your NEW DAY. It is Thursday, October 8, 6 a.m. in the East. Here's the situation. Dr. Ben Carson says everyone should have

attacked the shooter instead of sitting back and getting killed in the Oregon shooting.

Now, he does say that he doesn't mean this as criticism of the victims. And yet a fellow candidate and now a surviving student has slammed the presidential hopeful.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: Despite that backlash, one high-profile figure publicly supporting Carson. Media mogul Rupert Murdoch tweeting last night that Carson is terrific and would be a, quote, "real black president."

There's a lot happening on the campaign trail this morning, leading up to CNN's Democratic debate next week. So let's begin our coverage with Athena Jones, live in Des Moines, Iowa.

What's the latest, Athena?

ATHENA JONES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Alisyn.

There is a lot going on, on the campaign trail. Those Murdoch comments raising a lot of eyebrows. And when it comes to Carson, a lot of his appeal, people say, voters say is that he's not a politician. He says what he thinks. The question now is whether these latest comments will damage that appeal.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CARSON: I want to plant in people's minds what to do in a situation like this.

JONES (voice-over): Republican presidential hopeful Ben Carson just can't seem to shake the firestorm he ignited. On Wednesday, Carson doubling down on controversial comments he made about last week's Oregon campus massacre.

CARLSON: From the indications that I got, they did not rush the shooter. The shooter can only shoot one person at a time. He cannot shoot a whole group of people.

JONES: Now, a survivor of the shooting has responded, telling CNN, quote, "I'm fairly upset he said that. Nobody could truly understand what actions they would take like that in a situation unless they lived it."

Carson first commented on the massacre on Tuesday, telling ABC News what he would have done.

CARSON: I would ask everybody to attack the gunman, because he can only shoot one of us at a time. That way, we don't all wind up dead.

I would not just stand there and let him shoot me. I would say, "Hey, guys, everybody attack him. He may shoot me, but he can't get us all.

JONES: But just a day later, the former brain surgeon recounting a much different reaction when he was once held at gunpoint in Baltimore, to Sirius XM Radio.

CARSON: The guy comes in, puts the gun in my ribs, and I just said, "I believe that you want the guy behind the counter." He thought I was...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: In that calm way?

CARSON: In that calm way.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: In that calm way, OK.

CARSON: He said, "Oh, OK."

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, so you just redirected him to...

CARSON: Yes, redirected him.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK.

JONES: On Wednesday, an unlikely ally coming to Carson's defense.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. Trump, real quick on Ben Carson, you're tweeting differently about him. Are you defending him?

TRUMP: Well, I thought he was treated unfairly.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

JONES: Now, Trump and Carson have been holding their fire against one another in recent weeks. Trump even said he'd tap Carson for a cabinet position if he wins, Chris.

CUOMO: All right, Athena, thank you very much.

So in other news, Hillary Clinton has been distancing herself from President Obama a bit lately. But tonight, they're going to be rubbing elbows to the same dinner in Washington. Here's the intrigue, two levels.

She recently implied the president should have done more to stop what she deems the Benghazi witch hunt. And yesterday, Clinton announced she's breaking with the president on the trans-Pacific trade agreement. Remember, that's a deal she supported as secretary of state.

So let's bring in senior -- CNN senior political correspondent Brianna Keilar live in Washington. On the reversal, and the intrigue, Brianna, you can't be lockstep with a president that you want to replace, but what's the vibe down there?

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, perhaps this may be a built of an awkward dinner, as you point out, Chris, as you point out, you have Hillary Clinton breaking big with President Obama on this but also breaking with herself, contradicting herself on this trade deal that she, as secretary of state, heralded dozens of times. And as she's seen this challenge on her left from Bernie Sanders,

which is very concerning to her in these early states of Iowa and New Hampshire, really just add this to the list of things that she is breaking with President Obama on.

For instance, proposing this no-fly zone in Syria, as well as scrapping a key Obamacare tax, proposing that he relaxes his deportation policies. A number of things going on here.

She made the switch yesterday. Take a listen to this. This is what she told "PBS News Hour."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HILLARY CLINTON (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I'm worried about currency manipulation not being part of the agreement. We've lost American jobs to the manipulations that countries, particularly in Asia, have engaged in. As of today, I am not in favor of what I have learned about it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: So, this switch on President Obama's signature trade deal just one of several breaks that she's taken with him. You can imagine, Michaela, a number of Democratic candidates, really, I guess sort of seizing on this moment.

Bernie Sanders a little understated, I guess you could say. All he really said was that he's glad she reached this decision. He had made this decision from day one.

But Martin O'Malley is really low in the polls, zinging her a lot, saying, "Wow, what a reversal." And he accused her of switching her position on the eve of the debate, which, of course, CNN will be hosting next week.

And you know, this is also an issue, important to point out that Joe Biden, as he considers a presidential run, this -- positions that would be more difficult for him to take, allowing Hillary Clinton to contrast herself with him.

[06:05:10] PEREIRA: Good point. Methinks the zingers will continue to fly all the way up and to and including the time in Las Vegas. Brianna, thank you so much for that.

Meanwhile, Democratic challenger Bernie Sanders is gaining steam, closing that fundraising gap with Clinton, competing, even beating her in some early voting polls. So how is she preparing go into Tuesday's Democratic debate.

Sunlen Serfaty joins us live from Washington with a look at that.

Good morning, Sunlen.

SUNLEN SERFATY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Michaela. Well, it's interesting. Bernie Sanders is not preparing in your

typical way for this debate. He's not holding any full-fledged mock debates. No one's standing in to play Hillary Clinton.

But his campaign says that he is studying up. He's requested briefing books, and he's calling experts to talk policy. The Sanders campaign is really treating this as an important moment for him.

He has been doing well in the polls. The latest poll in New Hampshire, he is leading. He's up 42 to Clinton's 28, and certainly, he's getting close and gaining some ground on her, also in Iowa. So certainly how he draws these policy distinctions with Clinton up there on the debate stage will be very important. It will be key for him. And that's something that I asked Sanders about as he approaches this, as he prepares for the debate.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SANDERS: You are looking at a candidate who has run in many, many elections, who has never run a negative political ad in my life. I hope I never have to do that. And looking at a candidate who does not go out attacking people personally. I just don't do that.

But what I think democracy is about and what I think of debate is all about, is in fact, differentiating the differences of opinions that we have.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SERFATY: Now that said, Sanders said he is very ready and very clear he has a whole litany of items that he's ready and willing to take Clinton on for TTP. The Keystone Pipeline, Wall Street, a few that he directly said yesterday.

Now tomorrow, Sanders will roll out his very first congressional endorsement from Representative Grijalva of Arizona, and this weekend, he will hold a triplicate of big campaign rallies, Michaela, the campaign very eager to show momentum going into Tuesday.

PEREIRA: All right. Well, and we should point out that Bernie Sanders is going to be live on CNN today, Sunlen, at 1 p.m. Eastern. We have a lot to talk to him about, obviously, here on CNN.

Coming up in our 8 a.m. hour here on NEW DAY, Bernie Sanders' campaign manager, Jeff Weaver, will join us. We have a lot to get to.

CAMEROTA: Let's discuss all of this with our CNN political analyst and editor in chief of "The Daily Beast," John Avlon, and CNN political commentator and political anchor for New York One, Errol Louis.

Gentlemen, we have a lot to talk about.

JOHN AVLON, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Let's do it.

CAMEROTA: Let's win with Ben Carson. He said that gunshot -- gun violence victims should just fight back. That would solve the problem. Then he also had an interview at which he talked about having been held up at a Popeye's Chicken, where there was an actual gun, he says, pointed at him. But he actually did not fight back.

Let me play for you what he did in that situation.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CARSON: The guy comes in, puts the gun in my ribs, and I just said, "I believe that you want the guy behind the counter." He thought I was...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: In that calm way?

CARSON: In that calm way.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: In that calm way, OK.

CARSON: He said, "Oh, OK."

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, so you just redirected him to...

CARSON: Yes, redirected him.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: So "Don't shoot me, shoot that guy." That's one of his suggestions.

AVLON: Yes, not exactly a profile in courage moment.

You know, the problem obviously, with what Ben Carson said in the fantasy vision of how you handle a shooting, is that there was an Army vet, Chris Mintz, who was at the shooting, who rushed the shooter, who survived but was shot multiple times, and still nine people were killed. And the sort of fantasy vision through the ideological prism of these mass shootings is deeply insulting the people in the shooting. It's a reality challenge.

CUOMO: Right. Giving Ben Carson the benefit of...

AVLON: Oh, go on.

CUOMO: ... his own intentions, this is a very coldly logical man. OK? He is a surgeon. He looks at things very forensically. He says he wasn't trying to offend the victims. He's saying this is what people should do in these circumstances.

I think his answer to be the Mintz scenario would be Mintz is a hero. Everybody should have gone with him.

ERROL LOUIS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, although interesting, when they asked him about it, he did not know about Chris Mintz. So he was, you know, sort of spouting off. CUOMO: Is this about the logic or is it about the articulation of

what you talk about and what you don't as a presidential candidate?

LOUIS: The logic is uninformed by facts, is the problem. If he has consulted people who actually do this and he, as a neurosurgeon, would like us to consult him before we started talking about neurosurgery and the right way to sort of separate conjoined twins or something like that. But the FBI says, run, hide, fight. Run if you can, hide if shelter is available, fight if you must. I mean, and that's sensible advice. That would be advice a lot more logical if you wanted to sort of offer advice.

[06:10:09] CAMEROTA: But I mean, politically speaking, Lindsey Graham came out and said, rationally, Ben Carson has no idea what he was doing.

CUOMO: He said that to me, by the way.

CAMEROTA: He did?

AVLON: Did he really?

CAMEROTA: So Lindsey Graham said to you...

CUOMO: You have no idea how much it hurts me that you don't know.

CAMEROTA: He said -- he said rightly, he has no idea. None of us have any idea what we would do in a horrifying situation like that. But Lindsey Graham, voters are not supporting him. He's getting hash marks. So rational explanation versus Ben Carson, how do you explain that?

CUOMO: That's the story of the last, you know, eight years of Republican primaries. Responsible is a negative for Republicans right now, to kind of be more responsible. You're trying to be more irresponsible, more inflammatory, get more attention and play to the base, which is already deeply polarized...

CUOMO: Does it mean anything that Trump defends him?

LOUIS: Oh, yes, of course, it does.

Yes, sure. I mean, Donald Trump sort of operates in some -- in the same way. I mean, he'll take something he saw in a movie or something he saw on a television show and convert it into his policy that he's recommending.

These are people who are not professional politicians. They don't really, I think, fully understand that. We're all paying a lot of attention, and we want to believe that what they're saying could, in fact, become policy for the nation; and we want to test it out. So -- so just pulling out something that he saw in a movie some day is so inappropriate for this. It's just the wrong forum and the wrong logic.

AVLON: And it's been the last five years, in fairness. CAMEROTA: Errol, I want to stick with you, because Rupert Murdoch

also came out in support of Ben Carson. He's tweeted this: "Ben and Candy Carson, terrific. What about a real black president who can properly address the racial divide?"

CUOMO: Why are you asking Errol?

CAMEROTA: Errol, Barack Obama is not a real black president.

CUOMO: The Morgan Freeman argument Murdoch is pushing here.

LOUIS: Well, there's something like that. I mean, their -- everybody is going to stumble over the word "real." Throw out the world "real." I think the notion here -- I've suspected this for a while now -- is that at least part of Ben Carson's appeal is that for people who don't want to be seen as racist, want to think that they're sort of going in a somewhat progressive forward-looking direction on race, but happen to be conservative and don't like any of the policies of Barack Obama, they would like somebody else to be there.

Somebody to be, you know, in some ways, their political black friend, right, that they can say this is a guy who's conservative. You know, he's clearly not racist. He comes from -- you know, he sort of came up the hard way. And -- and he thinks differently, on taxes and on affirmative action and on this and on that and on international relations and everything else.

So Ben Carson is your guy if that's what you're looking for. And even stylistically, very different from Obama. You know, I mean, I was out with Obama at rallies and watching him in 2008 when he gave his victory speech. And there was this electricity. I mean, it was stunning. It was a real kind of -- and for Ben Carson -- let's remember, by standing into the president's face, basically insulting him for a lot of people -- this is what -- this is what we've been looking for, a guy who is genuinely conservative. A guy who's black working class. And a guy who doesn't like Obama, represents something differently stylistically, politically and policy-wise, he's going to run for president. It's ...

CUOMO: What about the tweet?

LOUIS: The tweet is the tweet. I don't -- I mean, how many votes is he going to change based on that tweet?

AVLON: You know, Rupert Murdoch tweets himself. So that's a genuine comment.

(CROSSTALK)

AVLON: But it shouldn't be, and we'll work on that. But look, I mean, you know, there's some -- we joke some people should be followed around by a lawyer who says, "What my client meant to say was."

And I think in this case, it's not about necessarily old-school racism. It's the issue, you know, Errol just raised, sort of comprehensively. Which is the persistence of candidates like Herman Cain and other folks who haven't done sort of the due diligence of building a backlog to run for president, get elevated very quickly as a political, you know, best friend.

The larger issue that's obviously so insulting, so deeply racist, the question of who's real and real black, right? And it's a game that has been played on the left against folks in the center for a long time historically. Right? This is sort of the Malcolm Martin divide but deeper. But to see it played from the right is so tone-deaf and cynical and insulting.

CAMEROTA: Errol, John, thanks for the conversation. Fascinating stuff.

We should note, Ben Carson will be live with Wolf Blitzer today at 1 p.m. Eastern on CNN. Tune into that.

Also, we're just five days away from the first Democratic debate. It is hosted by CNN and Facebook. Be sure to watch it October 13, 8:30 p.m. right here on CNN. Do you have a question you would like asked during the Democratic debate? I suggest you login right now.

CUOMO: Or take a video.

CAMEROTA: You could do that, because you could record a short video for Instagram using the hashtag #demdebate -- Michaela.

PEREIRA: All right. New details emerging on the Oregon massacre gunman. Sources telling CNN that the 26-year-old shooter who killed nine people at Oregon Umpqua College -- Community College last week, he was discharged from the Army in 2008 after trying to commit suicide.

Our Dan Simon has the developments for us from Oregon this morning -- Dan.

[06:15:07] DAN SIMON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, hi, Michaela. We are learning what happened in those very tense final moments here at the university.

Two plainclothes detectives hear what's happening on their police radios. They quickly response to the scene. They're not wearing bulletproof vests. They follow the sound of the gunfire, which takes them to a classroom.

They themselves then come under gunfire. That's when their training kicks in. They fire three rounds, striking the shooter once. He then retreats into the classroom and then takes his own life.

No doubt, according to police, those officers' actions ended up saving some lives. We're also getting some more information about the shooter's troubled past. We can tell you that in 2008, he was discharged from the military after just one month. He didn't get through basic training, because he tried to commit suicide back then. Because he wasn't dishonorably discharged, he was then able to legally purchase guns. Meanwhile, we should also tell you about some of the victims. We know

that two of them have already been laid to rest. There will be another funeral today, with several more over the next few days. This community, Michaela, is going to be in mourning for quite some time.

We'll send it back to you.

CUOMO: All right, Dan, I have to tell you, that is a very important piece of insight into this man. Everybody is asking what was missed? What was the motivation? Thank you for that reporting. We'll check back with you.

Now, in other news, Russia is stepping up its military campaign in Syria by land, at sea and air to shore up the Assad regime, or not.

Overnight, Russia's defense minister says cruise missiles fired for more ships hit ISIS targets in Syria. And this comes after two U.S. aircraft had to be rerouted to avoid a close encounter with a Russian warplane in Syria's airspace.

Let's bring in CNN's Arwa Damon, monitoring developments from Istanbul, Turkey.

Arwa, two points, the sense on the ground of what Russia's goals are and the impact on human desperation.

ARWA DAMON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, on the ground speak to anyone but the Russians or the Assad regime. And they will tell you that it is quite clear that Russia's intent is not necessarily to simply destroy ISIS, but perhaps is more focused on ensuring that the Syrian Army is able to recapture key territory from a variety of different rebel forces.

Turkey, NATO, the United States, all disputing Russia's claims that it is, in fact, only targets is or other terrorist organizations. Turkey saying that only a fraction of strikes, according to NATO, 10 percent of those strikes actually hitting ISIS and the impact on the ground.

Chris, I can tell you I've been watching a lot of YouTube videos over the last few hours. It is absolutely heartbreaking. Desperate attempts by Syrian medical volunteers known as the Syrian Civil Defense or the White Helmets scrambling, trying to extract, according to these videos, civilians from homes that have been reduced to sheer rubble. And a heart-wrenching video of a child in one of these makeshift medical facilities, drenched in blood, crying out for his mother.

So while we talk about military maneuvers on the part of the Assad regime or Russia or the U.S.-led coalition, Alisyn, let's not forget who it is that these war maneuvers are really impacting.

CAMEROTA: Arwa, your reporting always helps us remember the human toll of all this. Thank you for that.

Meanwhile, Doctors Without Borders repeating its call for an independent probe of the U.S. airstrike that hit one of its hospitals in Afghanistan. Twenty-two people including doctors and patients were killed. President Obama called the head of the humanitarian medical group to apologize. He promised full cooperation with the NATO and Afghan government investigations. U.S. officials have said the strike was a mistake.

PEREIRA: House Republicans will hold a private vote today for their choice to replace House Speaker John Boehner. Overnight, House Majority Leader Kevin McCarthy received an endorsement from former Vice President Dick Cheney. But he lost the backing of the conservative House Freedom Caucus, which could complicate his path to the job. His members are throwing their support behind Congressman Daniel Webster of Florida. The big floor vote will happen October 29.

CUOMO: The Coast Guard has ended the search for El Faro. It is now a salvage mission as of Wednesday. The search looking for survivors or the main wreckage of the ship. We'll now go to the Navy. They're going to look underwater. The president of the company that owns the cargo ship says there will be unending support for the crew's loved ones. Thirty-three people were on board so far. Only one body has been spotted in the water.

CAMEROTA: Well, Pentagon officials making it clear the United States will not cooperate with Russia in Syria. So where is this conflict in the Middle East headed? We will get perspective from a top Russian journalist, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[06:23:38] CUOMO: OK. Here's the situation. Russia says it is in Syria to fight ISIS and that it wants to work with the U.S. The juxtaposition is that U.S. sources and those on the ground in Syria say the location of troops and most bombing targets by Russia are going at Assad's enemies. And we just had two U.S. planes that had to be diverted because of its proximity to Russian jets. So what's going on?

Let's bring in Vladimir Pozner. He is a journalist in Russia and a TV personality there.

Mr. Pozner, it's good to have you back on NEW DAY. Thank you for standing in the rain there in Berlin. I'm sorry about the weather, out of my control. But thank you for being with us.

VLADIMIR POZNER, JOURNALIST: It's not too bad.

CUOMO: So I guess the question is, why hasn't ISIS provided proof that it's hitting ISIS targets just to quell the concern that they're there just to shore up the Assad regime?

POZNER: Well, they are there to shore up the Assad regime. I mean, Mr. Putin said quite clearly that Russia was supporting Assad, that Assad, as far as Russia was concerned, is a legitimate president, acknowledged by the U.N., has been represented by Syria in the U.N., and he is legitimate. And he is the only legitimate person, if you will, or leader in that part of the world.

So, yes, they are shoring up Assad.

And on the other hand, Russia does see the -- see ISIS as a real threat to its national security, because it's very close to the Russian border. Russia has a very large Muslim population. And I think the Russian view is this.

[06:25:12] Let's get rid of ISIS. Let's figure how to do that. Once that's done, then let's take a good look at what Mr. Assad is about and maybe have some kind of coalition government. But the first thing to do is get rid of ISIS, and when you say they've not furnished proof. I don't know how you do that. I think simply by pictures? Aerial pictures? There seems to be enough reconnaissance possibilities on all sides to really see where those Russian bombs are falling.

CUOMO: And that's what sparks the question, Mr. Posner, because they say we're hitting ISIS targets. But then when you look at where they're hitting and where they're putting troops on the ground, this is not where ISIS is. They're on the western side of the country. They're where Assad wants to shore up his territories, not where you would be going to target ISIS, necessarily.

POZNER: I can't answer that question, except for one thing, Mr. Putin said very clearly, unequivocally, we are not putting boots on the ground. And in that sense he was reflecting the general, shall I put it, sentiment, if you will, in Russia.

Russians do not want their husbands, fathers, brothers, children, to be fighting in that part of the world. They see no reason for that. Volunteers, possibly. And there people who would go to there to fight? There always are such people.

But I doubt very much there would be a real military force of Russians fighting on the ground, except if Putin was willing to risk losing a lot of his popularity in Russia. And I do believe that they are fighting ISIS, but they're also fighting what is called the moderate opposition. It's not very moderate, Chris.

As you know, I mean, some of these people have cut out the hearts of their enemies and eaten them on television. Not very moderate at all. In my -- in my personal opinion, the best thing would be for everyone to get out, and let the Syrians deal with their own problems. But that's not going to happen. Clearly, the U.S. is involved. The West is involved. Russia is involved.

The best solution would be to find some way to act together and to get rid of ISIS. I think that is really what's important. And I do believe that that's what President Putin thinks, although I have not had the opportunity to ask him that question.

CUOMO: You -- you have heard the reports, though, that there are at least 600 Russian boots on the ground and that there are supposed to be installations put in place to house thousands more. I mean, it does seem as though there is going to be a land component to this, and there is going to be manpower there. It would be consistent with efforts to shore up the Assad regime,

which is struggling against the rebel base, which as you know, the U.S. and the west supports.

How can Russia work with the U.S. against ISIS, if at the same time, it is supporting the efforts of a man that many see as a dictatorial terrorist?

POZNER: He is -- he is a dictator, and there's no doubt about that. The real question is, can there be an agreement between Russia and the west? And in particularly the United States.

Because when I say the west, obviously, it's the U.S. that calls the tune. Now can there be some kind of agreement that lets deal with this in the following manner, first fight ISIS and then deal with Assad.

The United States says we cannot accept Mr. Assad remaining in power. Russia says, that's not the way to go. Will they be able to find some kind of agreement? I really don't know. At this point, it seems to me, that both sides have taken a very hard position. And there's no -- no give on either side.

CUOMO: Right.

POZNER: Either and probably, it would be considered a loss of face, if you will. If one said, well, yes, maybe we can. There would immediately be an attack, especially in the U.S., with elections coming up. If Obama were to move a little bit closer to what Putin wants, he'd be accused. The Democratic Party would therefore lose some of its prestige. I mean, all of this is politics.

CUOMO: Well, politics aside, there is some diplomacy and some practicality at play also. Kerry has said -- he said to Lavrov, let's go after is. And Lavrov said, "Yes, let's go after ISIS."

And then Russia went in there and is only shoring up Putin [SIC], and is going through Turkish airspace, coming close to U.S. fighter jets. These are signs of provocation, not of cooperation.

POZNER: Look, Chris, if the Russians had bombed a hospital by mistake, by mistake, in any country the way the U.S. did, and then the president would have said, "I'm sorry" and apologized, do you think that would have worked?

CUOMO: You see, when the U.S. -- I just think that suggestion is a complete distraction, Mr. Pozner, from what I just said. They have been flying through Turkish airspace. Accidents happen in war. That's the problem.

POZNER: Sure. They flew twice.