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AT THIS HOUR WITH BERMAN AND MICHAELA

Top 5 Candidates to Watch in Debate; Breaking Down the Debate Rules; Keeping Order in the Debate Focusing on Talking Points; How Fiorina Will Prepare for a Face Off with Trump. Aired 11:30-12p ET

Aired September 16, 2015 - 11:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[11:33:07] JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: We are at the Ronald Reagan Presidential Library in Simi Valley, California, where look at it right there. In less than seven hours, that will be the stage for the CNN Republican debate.

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: The question, will tonight be a Donald Trump versus everyone else show, or will others on stage steal the spotlight somehow?

Let's bring in Brett O'Donnell, president of O'Donnell & Associates.

And, of course, we should point out, Brett, you are assisting Senator Lindsey Graham on his debate prep. Senator Graham will be part of the first debate at 6:00 p.m.

You have said -- and I attribute it to you every time I use your line, but I use it a lot, "that you can't win an election in one debate, but you can lose an election essentially in one debate." That's how consequential these moments can be for these candidates.

BRETT O'DONNELL, PRESIDENT, O'DONNELL & ASSOCIATES: Absolutely. I mean, I think tonight's a very big night for several campaigns that are on the cusp of either going in the wrong direction and evaporating or moving forward.

BERMAN: OK, who?

O'DONNELL: So -- well, I think you've seen several of them go in the wrong direction. Scott Walker had a very big lead, and he's gone backwards. And so I think the pressure is on him to perform tonight. Chris Christie had, at one point, been very high in the polls, and he's moved backward. Jeb Bush for sure has a lot riding on tonight's debate as well.

BOLDUAN: Nail down the Jeb Bush question.

BERMAN: You bring up Bush. After the first debate, people said you need to see more energy from him. Maybe he needs to go on the attack more against Donald Trump. So what do you advise him to do with when he's standing up there on that stage?

O'DONNELL: I think Jake will probably do a great job tonight, holding him to things that he's been saying on the trail. And so he can't afford a Tim Pawlenty moment. And what I mean by that --

(CROSSTALK)

BERMAN: Not attacking Mitt Romney.

BOLDUAN: Go after him.

BERMAN: Like he didn't attack him when he was asked to.

BOLDUAN: He even acknowledges that.

O'DONNELL: That was a big moment. And it really hurt him and may have cost him his campaign. And so he's been attacking Trump on the trail, and so he's got to stick with those attacks tonight in the debate when he's face to face with Trump.

[11:35:07] BOLDUAN: They want Jeb Bush to bring the energy, step it up, amp it up from the last debate, but where is the line there? You also can threaten to come off his pony.

BERMAN: Inauthentic.

O'DONNELL: Sure, absolutely. He's got to be himself. Every candidate has to be themselves. You can't suddenly have a new persona in a debate. People will read through that. You certainly have to be aggressive. You win these things based on being aggressive. Who's the most aggressive candidate?

BERMAN: You feel for these guys because people are telling Bush, be different, but act natural.

Let me ask about Ben Carson. He will be standing next to Trump. Carson is running second in all the polls right now. Ben Carson is not your average politician. He just isn't. He answers questions differently. He acts differently on the stump. What are you looking for from him on the stage?

O'DONNELL: You know, I think he actually presents a very curious problem for Donald Trump because he is the anti-Donald Trump in terms of style. And so it will be interesting because Trump tried to go after him, wasn't very successful in really attacking him, and actually, I think it hurt Trump in the polls. If you notice these last couple polls, it's tightened between Trump and Carson. You know, Carson is not really well suited for these. He's very low key, humble, passive, almost. But he made it through. And I think that folks like him. And that's the thing -- you know, voters vote for you for three reasons. Do they think you are competent? Do they think you share their values? And do they like you? And voters seem to like Ben Carson a lot. And so I think Trump attacking him is a really difficult stretch.

BOLDUAN: One person I think everyone has to focus on is the only new addition to this stage, is Carly Fiorina. This is a very -- and you're helping Lindsey Graham. He's been in the undercard debate twice. She's jumped from the undercard debate. This is going to be the first time in this main event. What is different for her? What's your advice for her between these two types of debates that she's going to be in?

O'DONNELL: Well, for her, the challenge is not to disappear. Because she was at the top of the undercard debate, but now she comes in kind of at the bottom of the big debate. And so she's made it there. Now it's on her to have a great performance and to actually show up. I think the pressure's on her.

BERMAN: I think with Fiorina, I think everyone is waiting for the most rehearsed moment. Everyone wants to know what will her response be to the face comment from Donald Trump.

BOLDUAN: It's almost the one rehearsed moment that everyone wants.

BERMAN: Exactly.

BOLDUAN: People want to see her response.

O'DONNELL: Oh, absolutely. And I think how she handles Trump and how he handles her will be also a very critical moment. You know, voters get to make head-to-head comparisons in these things. And so how the battle goes between the one-on-ones will tell us a lot about the candidates. And really, you know, Republicans are looking for their champion. Who's best to take on Hillary Clinton or the Democrat nominee next year? And so they'll judge how they handle these exchanges as to whether or not they're worthy.

BERMAN: Brett O'Donnell, you are our debate coach champion. So thanks for being with us.

O'DONNELL: Thanks.

BOLDUAN: We need some help, so please stick around.

(LAUGHTER)

Thanks so much, Brett.

And be sure to tune in tonight for the first of two debates. That's going to begin at 6:00 p.m. eastern. And then you see that, the main event, with 11 candidates on stage. That starts at 8:00 p.m. eastern.

BERMAN: Any moment now, the candidates and their teams, they will arrive for the walk-throughs. Up next, we'll break down the debate rules. You need to understand them. Do not bring your cell phone inside the debate hall.

BOLDUAN: That's a big no-no.

And forget the talking points, folks. Ahead, how CNN's debate moderator, Jake Tapper, is going to plan to get these candidates to engage this evening.

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[11:42:32] BOLDUAN: Debate day is upon us, everyone. It's like Christmas in September. The stage is set and the political stakes could not be higher as presidential hopefuls get set to face off in battle right here on CNN here at the Reagan Presidential Library. And everyone, unfortunately, has to play by the rules.

BERMAN: But what are those rules? For that, let's bring in the executive editor of CNN politics, Mark Preston.

Mark, give us the rule book here.

MARK PRESTON, CNN EXECUTIVE EDITOR, CNN POLITICS: Well, John, this certainly is Christmas for political geeks like Kate and yourself. Here we are, we're just hours away right now. And on the stage, we're going to see 15 presidential candidates broken up into two separate groups. The first group starts at 6:00 p.m. eastern time. And in that group, we will see four candidates. These are candidates who didn't poll high enough to get into the main debate. And then at 8:00, it will be the main debate, 11 candidates.

Now, if there's a question directed by a moderator or one of our questioners, Hugh Hewitt, a conservative radio host, or our own Dana Bash, then that person has one minute to answer the question. If that person were to invoke someone's name on the stage, that person then would get 30 seconds.

Now, those sound like they're pretty strict rules. However, this is a debate. They're not here to give speeches. We perhaps will allow it to breathe a little bit because we want to give the viewers and the voters an opportunity to understand and compare and contrast the candidates that are seeking the GOP nomination. In addition, there will be no props up here tonight. No electronic devices. At each podium, there's a pen, a pad of paper, and there's a glass of water.

(LAUGHTER)

BERMAN: All right. Mark Preston.

BOLDUAN: Thank goodness for that.

BERMAN: Marco Rubio, he probably has two glasses of water.

(CROSSTALK)

BERMAN: He makes the jokes himself.

The man in charge on that stage tonight is our colleague, Jake Tapper. I asked him how he intends to keep order up there.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAKE TAPPER, CNN CHIEF WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: This is a debate, and we do want people to bring some sort of spontaneity to it. And if they want to weigh in on a topic, I'll call on them. Generally speaking, we have an order. Everybody is going to be called on in every block. That's the hope in any case. And we're going to have as much engagement as possible.

(END VIDEO CLIP) BOLDUAN: Let's discuss this with CNN's senior media and politics reporter, Dylan Byers.

It's great to see you.

DYLAN BYERS, CNN SENIOR MEDIA & POLITICS REPORTER: Great to be here.

BOLDUAN: According to Jake, we want order but we want spontaneity. We want it all. What are you looking for here?

[11:45:10] BYERS: Well, I think Jake has his work cut out for him. One of the things that stands out to me is he has to come up with a way for these candidates to engage with one another which is different from the last debate in august. Those were questions from the moderator to the candidates one on one. What Jake has to do is create these moments in which Christie feels like he needs to go after Paul or Paul feels like he needs to go after Trump or something like that. And that's actually a much harder task than just asking questions directly.

BERMAN: You know what was interesting last time, too, is the interaction between the stage and the audience. That large, boisterous crowd at Quicken Loans Arena where the Cavs play. Donald Trump played off that crowd for good and bad. Here's it's 500 seats, pretty intimate, invite guests. You would imagine more polite perhaps than in Cleveland. That could change the dynamic.

BYERS: Right. I think so. In Cleveland, you're playing to the camera and the audience, and it's sort of the same thing because the audience is a national basketball association-sized audience. Here you're playing to an audience which is really like a small community theater sort of vibe. It's much more intimate. But you also have to remember that millions and millions of viewers out there who are going to be watching, that will be interesting to see how that affects the dynamic.

BOLDUAN: It will. When it comes to moderating the debate, everyone has got an opinion in terms of how the moderator does. I honestly -- Jake's going to be great, there's no question, but it is almost a lose-lose, you feel like sometimes.

BYERS: It's totally lose. What you're hitting on is the problem that every moderator faces, which is how do I control the debate without becoming a part of the story. And if there's one thing we know about politicians in Republican presidential candidates, interestingly, their greatest fallback when under pressure is to go after the moderator, to say as a member of the mainstream or lame-stream media. I will say one thing Tapper has going for him is he sort of commands respect across the spectrum of political opinion in a way that most members of the so-called mainstream media, I'd say, don't.

BOLDUAN: Until they need you to be their fall guy.

BYERS: And then it's done. Squandered everything.

BERMAN: And he's earned it and has broad shoulders. I think the goal to engage each other is a good one. I think --

(CROSSTALK)

BOLDUAN: Yeah.

BERMAN: Dylan Byers, great to have you here with us. Thank you for being with us --

BYERS: Thank you. It's a pleasure.

BERMAN: -- AT THIS HOUR.

BOLDUAN: Great to see you, Dylan.

So it's a face-off that we've all been waiting for. Carly Fiorina, Donald Trump on the debate stage together. We're going to speak with a Democrat who played Sarah Palin in debate prep for Vice President Joe Biden. Some insight on how to do that. Don't miss this.

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[11:51:19] BOLDUAN: From the undercard to main event, former Hewlett-Packard CEO Carly Fiorina is ready to go head to head with Donald Trump. But that matchup is one that everybody is waiting to see, but how is she preparing? This is what she told FOX News.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MEGYN KELLY, FOX ANCHOR, KELLY FILES: I read that you play solitaire on the phone, is that true?

CARLY FIORINA, (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE & FORMER CEO, HEWLETT- PACKARD: I do. Yes, I do play solitaire, and then they last thing I do, you know, my husband and I have a quiet moment together, and then I spend some time in solitude in prayer before it is time to actually go out on the stage.

KELLY: It can't hurt.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: That is after she has prepared a litany of zingers no doubt.

And I want to talk to someone who knows the process more than anyone. Former Democratic governor of Michigan, Jennifer Granholm, who helped to prepare Joe Biden to face off against Sarah Palin in the vice presidential debates in 2008.

And this is an interesting thing, because people want to know, what is Carly Fiorina do, but more importantly how does Donald Trump react to her. I want you to give advice to Donald Trump, the same advice to Joe Biden that you were giving against Sarah Palin on that debate stage. What should Trump do if Carly Fiorina goes after him?

JENNIFER GRANHOLM, (D), FORMER MICHIGAN GOVERNOR & POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, one, he definitely not pick on her looks, and that is a stupid move, and she took, of course, great opportunity with that by putting out that fantastic ad.

And you know, it is different than when Joe Biden was debating Sarah Palin, because he was the insider, and he had a lot of information and you could not be condescending. But with Trump, it is different with Carly Fiorina. He can go after her with Hewlett-Packard. People would expect that. She would not want to be handled with kid gloves. But I'll tell you, she is ready. She is going to come out -- I'm guess, right?

BOLDUAN: Right.

GRANHOLM: She is going come out swinging. And she's going to have a whole series. And I appreciate what she said about how she prepared but something tells me she is doing more than playing solitaire. She has a whole series of debate prepared cards, and she is going to answer the question, she's going to pivot and she's going to attack. And I hope that Donald Trump receives the brunt of it. And I hope that Donald Trump receives the brunt of the attacks of the others.

BOLDUAN: And, Governor, you mentioned, when it came to Joe Biden receiving attacks from Sarah Palin, you did not want him to be condescending, but you also heard advisers were really hammering home that there are some rules when it came to Biden versus Palin, which was do not belittle or mock or correct her.

GRANHOLM: Right.

BOLDUAN: In your view -- and you have been inside of, and you have helped out with this -- is there a different set of debate rules when a man is debating a woman than if a man is debating a man?

GRANHOLM: Well, there shouldn't be of course.

BOLDUAN: Exactly.

GRANHOLM: But we are not evolved enough as creatures to not be influenced by, you know, the overwhelming societal expectations of how men treat women, right? So you have to be careful. You have to be careful. However, I don't think that any woman who is on a debate stage like this would want to be treated as though she is fragile.

BOLDUAN: Right, with kid gloves.

GRANHOLM: Because this is the most serious job in the world, and she has to respond and attack, and she is going to be tough. But for a woman, the challenge is how to pivot and respond and still be likable, right, because you don't want to "B" word, so you have to do it with a smile, and perhaps inject some humor into it.

BOLDUAN: And Carly Fiorina talks about that, that you are a bimbo or the other "B" word.

GRANHOLM: Right. Exactly. And so it is a delicate balance

BERMAN: And you operated in the debate stage the way things are and not how you want them to be. GRANHOLM: Of course.

(CROSSTALK)

BERMAN: And so from the outside looking in, and not asking you who you want to win or want to lose, what have you been most surprised by, by these candidates on the stage?

[02:55:13] GRANHOLM: Honestly, I have been surprised at the utter reluctance of the men, the Republicans, not to take on Donald Trump. He is the front-runner, and this is your moment. If you are going to allow that ascension of his to continue, then you don't deserve to be on the stage. You need to go after him.

BOLDUAN: But, Governor, Rand Paul took him on --

GRANHOLM: Yeah.

BOLDUAN: Probably more than anybody, and it did not help the numbers.

GRANHOLM: Because maybe he didn't take him on in the right way.

BERMAN: And that's what he said. He said he didn't do it in the right way.

GRANHOLM: And, granted they know they will be attacked back, but because you are doing to be attacked back, and you don't attack? What a wimp you look like.

(CROSSTALK)

GRANHOLM: I am not going to be attacking back, because he is going to be hitting me harder.

BERMAN: -- and there's no word in the universe that bothers a Bush more than that --

(LAUGHTER)

-- and the word wimp goes back a long, long time.

GRANHOLM: And that's the low-T, and the low-energy complaint of Donald Trump, so he is not going to be low-T tonight, I predict.

BERMAN: I am glad you said it.

(LAUGHTER)

Jennifer Granholm, thank you so much.

GRANHOLM: All right.

BOLDUAN: Governor, great to see you.

(CROSSTALK)

BOLDUAN: Thank you so much.

And thank you all for joining us on this very special edition of AT THIS HOUR.

BERMAN: "Legal View" with Ashleigh Banfield will start right after this.

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