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AT THIS HOUR WITH BERMAN AND MICHAELA

Soon Candidates Arrive for Walk-Throughs; Trump Will Be Main Target of Debate; Trump Says His Tone Is His Weakness; Immense Pressure on Candidates During Debates. Aired 11-11:30a ET

Aired September 16, 2015 - 11:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[11:00:00] JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: The candidates due to arrive at the CNN debate. But will it be their field of dreams or a nest of nightmares?

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: And the real pressure, though, folks tonight may be on the insiders. An important new poll shows guys like Jeb Bush and Scott Walker, they are seeing dramatic drops. So is tonight make-or-break for them?

BERMAN: And he's a mad man. He's sick. He's a liberal. The new attacks on Donald Trump, and the debate hasn't even started. This is CNN's special coverage live from the Reagan Library.

Hello, everyone. I'm John Berman.

BOLDUAN: And I'm Kate Bolduan.

It is game time. We're here at the Ronald Reagan Presidential Library in Simi Valley, California. And the day is upon us, a day like no other day that could be a turning point in the 2016 race. Hours from now, the second Republican debate begins right here on CNN. The stakes, I think we can say, could not be higher. The campaigns, who do well, they could get a much-needed boost, or the candidates who do not, it could be broken.

BERMAN: A new poll out this morning from New Hampshire shows Dr. Ben Carson doing some surgery on Donald Trump's lead, now within four points. Look who's in third. Carly Fiorina, in the third position. Three outsiders there on top. The rest of the candidates, all of them experienced politicians, all of them now single-digiters.

BOLDUAN: That word.

(CROSSTALK)

BERMAN: -- You never want to have stuck to you. This debate could be crucial. As we said, the candidates due to arrive here very soon.

Let's go to Athena Jones. She is in the debate hall.

It is almost time for the big walk-throughs, Athena, for these campaigns.

ATHENA JONES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's right, John. They're going to be coming in the next couple of hours. They'll be arriving. They'll be able to walk through this debate hall, check out the podiums, get the lay of the land, learn where the moderators will be and that sort of thing. Let me show you this debate hall. We can't show it off enough. This is Air Force One. This is the Air Force One that President Ronald Reagan flew in. That is going to be the backdrop for these candidates at this debate tonight. CNN crews have spent weeks building this stage. This was not here, this whole platform. We are three stories high because they wanted to be able to showcase this plane in the backdrop for tonight. Walking over here a little ways, you can begin to see the podiums, these clear podiums laid out. You can tell here that the candidates are only going to be a few inches apart, less than two feet apart. They are just waiting there for the candidates to show up. Donald Trump will be in the middle, of course, flanked by Ben Carson and Jeb Bush. And then take a look around at the rest of the arena we've set up. It's not really an arena here. This is a very intimate setting. No more than 500 people are going to be in the audience tonight. These are folks who were invited by the library itself, the Reagan Library, also invited by the Republican National Committee, and a few of the people in the audience will be invited by the campaigns. But you can see here a much smaller setting than in that first debate where there were thousands of people in that basketball arena in Cleveland. Tonight, a much smaller scene. And this could affect how the candidates interact with one another, how much they're able to go after each other in this setting.

BOLDUAN: It is intimate. It is exciting, though. We were just walking through. I was trying to get John to play Trump, and I would play the moderator, but for some reason, he wouldn't play along.

(LAUGHTER)

Maybe you'll play along when we go through it a little later.

Athena Jones in the debate hall for us. Thanks so much.

There is no question that the main target on the stage is the man at the center. Donald Trump. But how hard will the other candidates hit at Donald Trump, at each other, and will it help?

Let's talk more about this with CNN political commentator and former White House political director, Jeffrey Lord; and CNN political commentator, Republican strategist, Kevin Madden; and CNN national political reporter, Maeve Reston.

Great to see all of you.

(CROSSTALK)

BOLDUAN: What did you say about the intellectual quotient?

(CROSSTALK)

(LAUGHTER)

BERMAN: -- not since Howie Mandel. (LAUGHTER)

That was exactly what I said.

(LAUGHTER)

BOLDUAN: And we'll continue now. So Donald Trump has said that he will play nice, but he's a counterpuncher. He's going to hit you if you hit him.

KEVIN MADDEN, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Right.

BOLDUAN: He just spoke with David Brody of the Christian Broadcasting Network. And one of the most interesting parts is when Brody asked him about his tone and will he tone it down?

Kevin, listen to this, and then I'll get your take.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: What I think maybe I can sometimes tone it down, when somebody hits you, you can hit a little bit less hard. At the same time, that may be the kind of thing that the country needs because we have to hit back hard. We have to fight hard because we're not going to have a country.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: I could maybe tone it down a little bit. Do you expect Donald Trump to tone it down tonight?

MADDEN: No, I don't. If I were advising Trump, I'd say, look, let's do what Trump does really well because that's what got him here, right? He's at the top of the polls. Because he's brash. He's bold. He's confrontational. At a time where the electorate is putting a premium on being brash, bold and confrontational. And that's one of the things that is actually helped him control the entire tempo of this race right now is that he's the one that's going on offense. And all of the other campaigns are forced to react to them. There's a reason that none of these other campaigns are getting any coverage unless they attack Donald Trump. It's because Donald Trump is the one that's really setting the tone.

[11:05:29] MAEVE RESTON, CNN NATIONAL POLITICAL REPORTER: That he's a victim and, you know, only counter punches. Come on.

MADDEN: Right.

RESTON: Let's be real.

(LAUGHTER)

JEFFREY LORD, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: When you extrapolate out from this to running the United States government and foreign policy and these things, I really do think that a lot of Americans are thinking we're tired of being pushed around. This is exactly the kind of person we want, somebody who will be tough and not be pushed around and will counterpunch, as it were, on the scene instead of apologizing and that kind of thing. So I think that it has sort of a double meaning here.

BERMAN: So the question for all the other people on that stage, the 10 people with Donald Trump, what are they going to do about it?

I talked to Rand Paul yesterday. And Rand Paul, you remember, was the first one out of the gate in terms of trying to punch Donald Trump last time. What's happened to him since? His numbers have slipped in the polls. So I asked him if he was going to change tactics. Listen to what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. RAND PAUL (R-KY), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE (voice-over): The fact that Donald Trump has used eminent domain and the bully force of government to take private property that he supports the practice is a big fan of that decision, I think when Americans that and when conservatives know that, they're going to run away with their hair on fire. They're going to say, oh, my goodness, I didn't realize that Donald Trump was a fake conservative.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: Just before he said that, what Paul said to me that was fascinating wasn't I'm going to change tactics. He said I'm actually going to hit Trump harder.

(CROSSTALK)

RESTON: Thought he was going too easy on him, right?

BERMAN: He thinks he went too easy on Trump. That's Rand Paul. He's number eight or nine right now.

Does that mean, Jeffrey, that everyone needs to go after Trump?

RESTON: No.

LORD: It means they don't -- right, right. I mean, look what's happened to Rand Paul. Where is Rick Perry on this stage? He isn't there, right? I mean, he's the one who called him a cancer on the Republican Party. You know, good-bye. So, I mean, I really think Rand Paul is painting himself in a bad situation here. He's not going to help himself at all.

RESTON: We also think about, you know, the very tricky group dynamics that they're all dealing with. I mean, if you study past debates, you remember when Hillary good roughed up by all of the other candidates, you end up looking like the victim. That often can work to your Benefit.

LORD: Right.

(CROSSTALK) BOLDUAN: You're likeable enough, Hillary.

RESTON: Yeah. I mean, that's one of the rules that these candidates are keeping in the back of their mind. They need to put their story out there and try to bring a little bit of the focus off of Trump. So that's what will --

(CROSSTALK)

BOLDUAN: The interesting element, I think -- we were talking about this, this morning. The one person who has been even a little bit successful in terms of attacking or countering Donald Trump is Carly Fiorina.

RESTON: Right.

BOLDUAN: She's been very successful.

And why do you think she's been successful? Maeve, you've followed her for years.

RESTON: For a long time. She's just an incredibly disciplined candidate, very substantive. And what she is so artful at is the little jab with the smile, the soft touch, doesn't come off as too hostile. Yeah, we've seen her do that a couple of times --

MADDEN: No sledgehammer.

RESTON: -- on the campaign trail, and it's very effective. You know, it does sort of bring voters in and say, oh, well, she's got it. And she's been showing that with Hillary Clinton, too, going up against Hillary Clinton. So I think we really will see some surprises. Obviously, she has to come back against Trump on that face comment tonight.

(CROSSTALK)

RESTON: And I'm sure that she's got lots of lines in her back pocket on that.

MADDEN: To your point, it also helps that she also has an outsider status as well. Trump, the contrast he wants to draw with all of these other candidates is career politician. That's a very hard -- you can't make that case against Carly Fiorina.

(CROSSTALK)

BERMAN: New Hampshire poll.

(CROSSTALK)

MADDEN: Right. Right, that's exactly the point. Here we go again. Here we go again. I think, you know, we are in a situation here where it's one outsider against another. The insiders are over here. And they're not quite relevant, but they're not in good shape. BOLDUAN: You might have said this, Kevin. It kind of is two debates

going on. The outsiders need to win the outsider debate, and then the insiders or the establishment guys, they're kind of looking to stay in their lane and win that. Do you think that's possible?

MADDEN: It has broken off into that. I think what happens is so many -- someone like Jeb Bush says I'm never going to get Jeb -- I'm never going to get Donald Trump's voters. Like ultimately, those folks are not more inclined to vote for somebody like me. But there's this 60 percent to 70 percent of the electorate that's still out there right now in the Republican primary, where posting up against or drawing a contrast with Donald Trump is going to help them consolidate that sliver of the electorate. I think that's what they're looking to do in this campaign.

BERMAN: Is he really 60 percent to 70 percent? Because you look at the national polls, Jeb Bush, and they've raised the bar, the Bush campaign has told us how energetic he's going to be, and he's got to do something to make a mark tonight.

[11:10:01] MADDEN: Look, it is. I mean, I think a lot of these voters are right now, they're still -- they're still shopping around. Like they haven't exactly parked themselves with one candidate and said that's it, I'm voting for this candidate from here.

RESTON: That's a frustration as a political reporter. You go out there to these campaign events and you talk to people. No one ever gives you one name when you ask who they're voting for. Polls really simplify things. But most of the voters out there who are serious likely Republican voters have got four or five people they're looking at.

(CROSSTALK)

BOLDUAN: That is why this debate tonight is so important, to help start clarifying some of those positions.

(CROSSTALK)

BERMAN: My question for Jeffrey Lord and Kevin Madden, and Maeve Reston, is when is that debate tonight? Let me tell you, the debate tonight, it all begins at 6:00 p.m.

BOLDUAN: What time is that again?

BERMAN: Right here on CNN, 6:00 p.m., Lindsey Graham, George Pataki, Rick Santorum and Bobby Jindal. At 8:00 p.m., the main debate, the 11 top polling candidates, they take the stage.

BOLDUAN: Up next, the man who just sat down with Trump and talked to him about his tone and also his take on the Bible. He is joining us live.

BERMAN: Plus, as the candidates get set to arrive, that happens very soon, we'll speak live to a debate coach who has not only helped Republicans prep in the past, but he is helping someone who will take the stage tonight. We will get his inside advice, the secrets that only you will learn.

This is CNN's special live coverage. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[11:14:51] BERMAN: The big CNN debate now less than seven hours away right here at the Reagan Presidential Library in beautiful Simi Valley, California.

BOLDUAN: The venue, grand, absolutely, but everyone is also watching for a real debate. Maybe even some mudslinging going on between these candidates.

The man at center stage, Donald Trump, says that he is ready for his rivals to attack, of course. But also listen to this, what he just told CBN News when asked about one of his greatest weaknesses, his tone.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: Well, it's a tough question because you hate to say what your weaknesses are, but I think I could tone it down a little bit when pressed. I think I have a great temperament. I've had a great -- you couldn't build a great business like I built if you didn't have good temperament. But I think maybe I can sometimes tone it down when somebody hits, you can hit a little bit less hard.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: So Trump was speaking there with CBN News' chief political correspondent, David Brody, who is with us right now.

DAVID BRODY, CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT, CHRISTIAN BROADCASTING NETWORK: Hello, guys.

BERMAN: You've done a lot of work with Trump. You've really covered him very closely, particularly in this campaign. When he says he could really tone it down, do you have the feeling that he means it?

BRODY: Oh, I think he means it to a degree. What I mean by that is that I think he understands that he does need to tone it down. Whether he can get there is a whole different matter.

BERMAN: That's the thing. When he's on the debate stage, it's almost like he can't help himself.

BRODY: That's right. So I think for Trump, what he needs to do -- look, if he tones it down completely, he doesn't become Donald Trump. So he needs an 8 percent to 10 percent gradient downgrade of toning it down. And I think if he does that, that will play, especially with evangelical voters who say, we appreciate you, we're thinking about voting for you, as I talked about in this interview, but I don't know about this. I mean, you've got to watch the insults. And that's what many evangelicals are concerned about.

BOLDUAN: Many evangelicals are also likely wondering about is, I don't know, is it clarity on his faith? Clarity on his take on the Bible? You asked him about the Bible. You ask him -- he calls it an awesome book. The only -- a great book --

BRODY: It's terrific.

BOLDUAN: -- behind, that is, "The Art of the Deal," of course. When you ask him why it's such a great book, this is what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: There's so many things that you can learn from it. Proverbs, the chapter, never been to envy. I've had that thing all of my life where people are bending to envy. And they're just -- actually, it's an incredible book. The more you see it, the more you read it, the more incredible it is. And the more -- it's like a great -- you could say -- I mean, I don't like to use this analogy, but like a great movie, a great incredible movie. You'll see it once, it will be good. You can see it 20 times, and every time you'll appreciate it more.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: What do you think of his answer there?

BRODY: Well, it needed some clarification. There's no doubt about that. And as a matter of fact, we talked to the campaign afterwards because there was a lot of stuff happening at the time. And he was talking about proverbs 24. It talks about do not be envious of wicked men. Now, what does that mean, exactly? Well, that's a follow-up more in another interview that I do with Donald Trump. But, I mean, I think they wanted to talk a little bit more about the Bible. I don't think there's any question about that, but he's not pastor Trump. He doesn't claim to be, and that's going to be his bread and butter.

Here's the thing. Carson, Huckabee, Cruz, they all play in the wear it on your sleeve to the wear it on your sleeve voter. Trump plays to the sick and tired of the evangelical voters. If he does that, that's key.

(CROSSTALK)

BOLDUAN: He's doing pretty well.

BRODY: He is.

BERMAN: The only candidate so far to go after Trump directly on his faith is Ben Carson.

BRODY: Right.

BERMAN: And he apologized. In a way he sort of took it back after the fact. Do you think that means it's asked and answered, or do you expect to hear any other candidates question Trump's faith? And do you think that's fertile ground?

BRODY: Well, that's a good question. I think you probably will at some point, as we move on, have some folks start to poke at his faith. Like Ben Carson did to a degree at the time. Is it fertile ground? Look, I think there's a Teflon quality to Trump. And when it comes to faith, if you're going to go after him, he's not out there necessarily with his faith. Therefore how much damage will it really do? If you go after Mike Huckabee on faith, that's a different matter. Then you have a situation.

BOLDUAN: How do they poke at it without him being able to say, I'm not wearing my faith on my sleeve, don't call me pastor Trump. And who are you to question my faith? I'm not questioning yours.

(CROSSTALK)

BOLDUAN: That was Ben Carson. What do you think?

BRODY: Well, no, he's in -- I'll be honest with you. I think Trump --

(CROSSTALK)

BOLDUAN: Who knows if it comes up tonight, right?

BRODY: Right. And it very well may. It would be nice to have clarification on that Bible verse, actually.

But look, he's in a tough spot. He knows that he needs to tone it back. He does know that. I don't think there's any question. And yesterday in that interview, we were there at his golf course. And we spent a couple hours with him. I mean, that's just the beginning of what we've got. And we'll roll it out over the next few days. But he was in a much more mellow mood, and it wasn't necessarily because he was talking to an evangelical reporter, if you will. I think he understands the need to tone it back. I really do.

BERMAN: Well, let's talk more about this. As you roll out that interview, hopefully, you'll come back and we can discuss it more.

BRODY: Love to.

BERMAN: It was really interesting. We see a side a lot of people haven't.

[11:20:05] BOLDUAN: We'll see if we see that side tonight in the debate. Will he tone it down? We'll see.

Coming up for us, as the candidates get ready to arrive at any moment, we're going to speak live with two insiders who have guided President Obama as well as Mitt Romney through their debates. What each candidate is doing right now and in the hours ahead.

BERMAN: Plus, we're going to speak to a Republican debate coach about his advice for the candidates tonight. What do you do? What do you say? How do you look? Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BOLDUAN: The stage is set this morning, and we are in the final countdown. It all begins at 6:00 p.m. eastern with the undercard debate. And then, the top 11 Republican presidential hopefuls, they are ready to face off for the main event here at the Reagan Presidential Library in Simi Valley, California.

BERMAN: So much pressure. So what we want to know is what are the candidates doing right now? What about their campaign staffs? What does it feel like behind the scenes?

BOLDUAN: This is when I start biting my nails again.

BERMAN: I know.

We have two people who know the pressure and somehow survive. Katie Packer Gage, Mitt Romney's former deputy campaign manager; and Dan Pfeiffer, CNN contributor and former senior adviser to President Obama.

So we're sitting here seven hours before the debate, Katie. What's going on? Are the candidates cramming? Are the staffs biting their nails? Are they watching us right now?

[11:25:16] BOLDUAN: Hi, guys.

(LAUGHTER)

BERMAN: What's happening?

KATIE PACKER GAGE, FORMER ROMNEY DEPUTY CAMPAIGN MANAGER: They're probably not watching too much of this.

(CROSSTALK)

BERMAN: That's a mistake right there.

(LAUGHTER)

I'll tell you right now, that's their first mistake.

BOLDUAN: They are going to lose.

: Well, we'll let them know.

PACKER GAGE: You know, I think the challenge right now is to just try to clear your head and not fill it with, you know, a lot of sort of superfluous information, really message on what your message is for tonight, what are the lines of attack against the other candidates. What are the things that you want to communicate to the American people as you introduce yourself to the American people yet again. And just try to sort of clear the clutter. I would guess that a lot of folks, you know, are just trying to relax and, you know, kind of keep to themselves today. I wouldn't imagine there's a whole lot of last-minute cramming and prepping, but I think some of that depends on the candidate.

BOLDUAN: You know, the first debate, there was this whole kind of montage of what the pregame warm-ups kind of were. And some of them were cheeky. Some of them were serious. Fiorina liked to play solitaire before to kind of clear her head. What did President Obama do? Take us inside. What was his game face like?

DAN PFEIFFER, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Debate day would be relaxation day. We'd try to get to the arena at the last minute possible so he could spend time with family and friends beforehand. He'd try to get a good workout in right before the debate. With some of the staff he was closer to like Robert Gibbs his former press secretary or the body guy. They'd make him laugh, keep him loose.

BOLDUAN: Do you learn that over time?

PFEIFFER: Yes. Yes.

BOLDUAN: Or do you kind of know from the beginning?

PFEIFFER: You know, in 2007, 2008, we did, like 20-some debates.

(LAUGHTER)

There was a lot of trial and error. Every once in a while you'd see some policy person or supporter corner the president and try to, like, drill him on something or remind him of a set of facts. Over time he realized that the performance isn't as important as precision. So the policy prep should be over by now, and it should really be about either the larger strategic goals and also sort of figuring out what are the lines? What are going to be the moments that you want to make sure you get in, in this debate, and practice that a little bit but keep it loose.

BERMAN: You know, George W. Bush used to get a massage. I remember he used to get this big massage on debate day. I thought at the time that seems so weird.

(LAUGHTER)

But it makes sense. You want to clear your head.

What about the walk-through? I'm always struck by that. Sometimes the candidates go in, but it's usually staffers. I'm, like, what are they going to change now?

(LAUGHTER)

I mean, we're not going to move the podium. It's there. Trump, you're standing next to Ben Carson. Deal with it.

(LAUGHTER)

PACKER GAGE: For some of these candidates, there are things that they look for that are, kind of, you know, studying points. In the case of Governor Romney, he always liked to know where Mrs. Romney was.

BERMAN: I've seen that. I've seen him say, where is Ann going to be.

PACKER GAGE: He, on debate day, would always spend time with his wife, with his kids. That was how he sort of, you know, loosened up and relaxed. He knew the policy. You know, he needed to just clear his head. In the walk-through, he wanted to know where were those people going to be that, you know, when he needed a moment of, you know, just sort of studying, you know, he knew where to find her.

BOLDUAN: It's so different going from the general election debate prep, obviously. You know who you're up against, and it's one person, right? Can you do an 11-American mock beforehand?

(LAUGHTER)

PACKER GAGE: We've done an eight-person one before. You know, in 2012. You know, Governor Romney, you toe, always went in with a plan. He always sort of anticipated, you know, what was his message? What was he going to communicate? Who did he think was going to come at him? You know, we had a great debate team led by Beth Myers at the time. And they did a really good job anticipating, you know, what the incoming was going to be. And it was really helpful.

BERMAN: So when does Romney get in?

(LAUGHTER)

PACKER GAGE: I think Governor Romney has made his intentions very clear.

BOLDUAN: Same question. Oh, never mind.

PFEIFFER: I saw them putting a 12th podium up. So maybe that's for Governor Romney tonight.

BOLDUAN: There you go. That's the surprise, everybody.

(LAUGHTER)

BERMAN: Katie Packer Gage, good to have you with us. Really appreciate it.

PACKER GAGE: Thank you.

BERMAN: Any minute now, that walk-through we were just talking about, the candidates arrive at the debate hall. And not much longer after that, fireworks!

BOLDUAN: Literally. Oh.

BERMAN: That's flashing lights, but almost fireworks.

We're going to talk to a debate coach who's going to give us the inside scoop on how these candidates are preparing these zingers that may be so important.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)