Return to Transcripts main page

WOLF

Trump Meeting with RNC Chair; Trump to Pledge Not to Run as Third-Party Candidate; New National High for Donald Trump; Kentucky Clerk Now Being Taken Into Custody; Same-Sex Marriage Refusal; Interview with Sen. Rand Paul Interview; Hungary Trains are Halted. Aired 1-1:30p ET

Aired September 3, 2015 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN ANCHOR: That is a new high. He's followed by Ben Carson who's at 18 percent. Jeb Bush tied with Ted Cruz at eight percent and they are followed by Marco Rubio at five percent. Carly Fiorina, Mike Huckabee, they're at four percent. Scott walker is at three percent.

And at this meeting this hour with the RMC chairman, sources say Trump is likely to sign this, right here. It's a pledge to endorse the eventual Republican nominee and a promise not to run as a third party candidate.

CNN Chief Political Correspondent Dana Bash is outside of Trump Tower in New York. Dana, what's the impetus behind the meeting, and why do we think that Trump is likely either to sign the pledge or to keep his word if he does?

DANA BASH, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: It's a great question since, you know, for the past many weeks, since that famous moment at the last debate, the Republican debate, he, you know, refused to promise to be a Republican. It's been -- it's been asked many, many times. He's sort of been moving there a little bit publicly. But I can tell you the answer -- the way to answer that is to tell you what I'm told has been going on privately which is a whole lot of conversations, pressure, cajoling maybe, from the Republican National Committee and other Republicans even around the country.

Take South Carolina, for example, the first in the south primary states. That -- and that's a place where you have to be a pledged Republican to even participate in the primary there. So, those are some of the reasons why Donald Trump, it looks like, is going to sign this pledge.

Now, the reason why I'm hedging and I keep hedging, I really have been since yesterday when we reported that all signs are pointing to Trump signing this pledge, is because I am also warned that everything is going to really come down to what happens in the meeting. That is going to happen now, Bri, this hour between Donald Trump and the Republican National Committee chair, Reince Priebus, who flew up from Washington to come right here where I am at Trump Tower to meet with Donald Trump. To put the -- to finally seal the deal, basically, to convince him, please sign this pledge. This is sort of all part of a -- of the long process to get him to do that. And the reason why they want him to do it, is probably obvious now to our viewers, is because Republicans are very worried that if Donald Trump doesn't get the nomination and ultimately he says, you know, I'm going to run as an independent. That will very -- almost definitively siphon both the Republican and probably elect a Democrat.

KEILAR: Yes. But I'm sorry, there's a recent Quinnipiac University poll and it suggests that if Trump puts in that third-party bid, it would hand the presidential election to Democrats exactly as you suggest there, Dana. The poll shows Hillary Clinton at 40 percent, then Jeb Bush and Donald Trump at 24 percent each, in a hypothetical three-way race. This is sort of the ultimate nightmare for Republicans, isn't it?

BASH: Oh, it would be a total nightmare scenario for Republicans. But having said that, Bri, it's also important to make clear that this pledge, assuming that he does sign it, isn't legally binding at all. You know, it's just a two-lined piece of paper. I've talked to several lawyers, campaign lawyers especially, who say, you know, we've looked up the law that we don't have anything that shows that he would have to abide by this at all. So, it's more of a political document, maybe a practical document for him now but it is not legally binding.

So, if, for some reason, something dramatically changed over the next, what, six months or even more, and Trump didn't get the nomination, he doesn't necessarily have to abide by this pledge even if he's signs it. So, you know, that is noteworthy.

And the other thing that is noteworthy is that I am told that Trump Tower behind me in his offices, the calls that he is getting about this issue from his supporters, these are people who are already all in on Donald Trump are saying, don't do it. You know, don't become part of the establishment. Don't promise to be affiliated with a party. We want you to, sort of, stay out there and hang out and keep the option open to run as an independent.

So, that's what they're getting from their supporters. But the flip side of that, as you know, Bri, if he wants to win the nomination, he has to get beyond his supporters and there are probably a lot of party faithful out there who want to know that he is actually a Republican, especially as they're hearing more and more from people like Jeb Bush, that he is not a real conservative showing some of his more liberal positions from his past -- Bri.

KEILAR: All right, Dana Bash outside of Trump Tower, thank you so much.

So, what does it mean, politically and legally, if Donald Trump signs this loyalty pledge which is really kind of a strong suggestion, as you just heard Dana explaining there?

Cleta Mitchell is a political law attorney, so she's going to shed some light on this. Cleta, thanks so much for being with us as we take a look at this pledge that says, I affirm that if I do not win the 2016 Republican nomination for president of the United States, I will endorse the 2016 Republican presidential nominee, regardless of who it is.

[13:05:07] Then it continues, it says, I further pledge that I will not seek to run as an independent or write-in candidate nor will I seek to accept the nomination for president of any other party. But this is not legally binding, right?

CLETA MITCHELL, POLITCAL LAW ATTORNEY: Well, it depends on the state. We have to remember that we have two procedures here that we're dealing with. First are these debates and the CNN debate that's coming up in two weeks. The RNC has no doubt entered into agreements with CNN as it did with Fox and other media outlets. And the Republican National Committee has the right to decide who is and isn't allowed on its primary debate stage. So, we start with that.

And Bernie Sanders asked to be in the Republican debate. I doubt that the Republican National Committee would allow it. So, we start with the primaries.

And then, we have to look at the fact that there are many states that have what we call sore loser laws, so that someone who loses a primary cannot then run as an independent or another party's candidate in the general election. There are a lot of states that have that because, remember, we don't have a national presidential election. We have 50, plus the territories, state elections. And the state laws govern who can and can't be on the ballot. And a lot of state laws would keep Donald Trump off their ballot in a general election.

KEILAR: From a political standpoint, Republican presidential candidate Carly Fiorina saying, look, this is a matter of trust. Here's what she said today on CNN.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CARLY FIORINA, PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: It's unenforceable. It is, more than anything else, your word. And I would presume that somebody running for president would like to signal to the American people and, most especially right now, to Republican primary voters that their word can be trusted.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: But I wonder, Cleta, is there really any fallout for Donald Trump if he goes back on his word there? You just heard from our reporter, Dana Bash there on the scene at Trump Tower, that a lot of his supporters are saying, kind of, whatever, OK. They want him to be, really, independent.

MITCHELL: Well, I think that, as a practical matter, one needs to remember that getting on the ballot in all 50 states, if you are not the major party nominee, it's not that simple. If you're the major party nominee of either of the two recognized national parties, then all the party does is certify you as the nominee, and you go on the ballot. That's not true if you run as an independent or minor party candidate. Those are very difficult procedures.

And Ross Perot was only able to get on the ballot in a number of states, because he had been the subject of a draft movement so they already had signatures and had him on the ballot. This is not an easy thing.

I think that, in the final analysis, it is the wise thing for the Republican National Committee chairman to meet with Donald Trump, based on Trump's statement at the first debate. And to say, look, if you're going to be on our stage as a candidate, you have to pledge support to the party. And I think that that's an important thing that Reince Priebus is doing today.

KEILAR: All right. As you see, the bar is high to be on the ballot in many states.

All right, Cleta Mitchell, thanks so much for explaining that to us. We appreciate it.

And, once again, Donald Trump is supposed to hold a news conference next hour. As soon as it begins, of course, CNN is going to bring that to you live so stay with us for that.

Next, another man vying for the White House will join me live. I'm talking to Republican presidential candidate, Rand Paul. You can hear his thoughts on this pledge with the RNC and on Donald Trump as well as some comments he's recently made.

[13:08:49]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KEILAR: We have some breaking news here at CNN. The Kentucky clerk, the county clerk in Kentucky, who refused to issue marriage licenses to same-sex couples, has now been ordered by a federal judge to be taken into custody. This happened just moments ago. This was a federal judge who, again, issued that order for clerk, Kim Davis, who has reportedly refused, despite court intervention, to go ahead and award those marriage licenses to same-sex couples.

Joining me now from Capitol Hill, we have Kentucky senator, this is very appropriate, and Republican presidential candidate, Rand Paul. Senator, you just heard that news. What's your reaction to this? I know that you've come out in support of Kim Davis. But with this news, what's your take?

SEN. RAND PAUL (R-KY), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Well, you know, I think it's absurd to put someone in jail for exercising their religious liberty. You know, if you want to convince people that same-sex marriage is something that's acceptable, I would say try to persuade people. But, you know, if we're going to use the federal government, and we're going to get involved in every state locality, you know what's going to happen? It's going to harden people's resolve on this issue. There'll be no open-mindedness on this. And I think it's a real mistake to be doing this.

I think what's going to happen as a result of this is states and locality are just going to opt out of the marriage business completely. Her heartfelt religious conviction is that this isn't the kind of marriage that she approves of.

My understanding is that she will file a contract, if two adults have a contract, she'll file it. She just doesn't want to have a signature, her signature, on it, showing her approval. I see no reason why there couldn't be a compromise, where we couldn't have a notary of the republic, a notary of the public, certify the contract and she simply files it. My understanding is she will do that, but she doesn't want to give her impromptu (ph) to a type of marriage that she objects to. And this is really the problem when, from (INAUDIBLE) from the federal level, we decide to get involved with a situation that has always, throughout the history of our country, been a local issue.

KEILAR: What do you think about Carly Fiorina's take on this? She has said, like you, that she respects Ms. Davis' beliefs, her religious beliefs. But she also says she's a government employee and she should be executing the will of the government.

[13:15:14] And if she doesn't want to do that, then she should get a new job.

PAUL: Well, you know, I think one thing we haven't debated enough is what actually is the law. Is the law that every county clerk in Kentucky has to sign a marriage certificate? Is a notary of the public, is that sufficient? Is the clerk's job to execute and to file contracts or is it to sign their approval? I think there's a lot of different ways around this that don't lead to conflict that lead more -- to more time when people can try to persuade others of their opinion on what marriage should be. But I think this is a real mistake and even those on the other side of the issue, those who want to support a new definition for marriage, I think it sets their movement back because it's seen as that the federal government's going to come in with bully force and here, even with police power, and incarcerate people who disagree or who still believe in the traditional notion of marriage. So I think this is a huge mistake and it's a step back even for those who do want to redefine marriage.

KEILAR: I want to talk to you about something that you said this week about heroin addiction. Here's what it -- here's what you said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PAUL: We have a lot of problems and people always come up to me and say, well, we've got heroin problems and all these other problems. You know what, if you work all day long, you don't have time to do heroin.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: All right. Well, that joke received by the crowd there, but this morning on CNN's "New Day" your opponent, New Jersey Governor Chris Christie, said it was insulting and he said that it's not facing the reality that addiction is a disease. What's your reaction to that?

PAUL: You know, the problem with short clips is it didn't carry the whole discussion and I discussed at least 10 times in New Hampshire this weekend that I do believe we should treat the addiction and we shouldn't really treat it as an incarceration problem. I'm not for locking up drug addicts. I am for rehabilitation. I'm also a lead co- sponsor of a bill with Senator Markey that would allow doctors who treat drug addicts to see more patients. Currently there's a bizarre federal law that limits how many people who are addicted can be seen by one doctor. My bill would expand doctors' ability to treat addiction but also include nurse practitioners and others who are certified in drug treatment.

So, no, you pick out a snippet of me trying to be funny and you don't listen or the inclination is that, well, this is really what my position is on drug addiction. But if you listen to more of the speech, you'll find that my position is, I think we should save money on incarceration and actually spend it on drug rehabilitation.

KEILAR: All right. And, senator, as you know, this pledge, the loyalty pledge, this is all the buzz today in politics with your field. You have called Donald Trump a fake conservative. You said this week that if Trump wins the nomination, the GOP would suffer its biggest defeat since Barry Goldwater lost to Lyndon Johnson in 1964. Have you signed the loyalty pledge? And if Donald Trump were to be the nominee, would you support him?

PAUL: You know, I'll support whoever the nominee is and I will sign the pledge. I signed a pledge when I ran for Senate because, frankly, you need all of the Republicans to come together.

I do think Donald Trump would be a disaster for the country and a disaster for our party and I think we'd suffer the worst defeat since 1964. The reasons is, is, I don't think you want a nominee that offends whole areas of the public, whole ethnic groups. If you paint with a broad brush and you want to say, well, most Hispanics are drug dealers and they're rapists and murders, well, that's crazy talk and that offend a whole segment of our population.

I think most people who immigrated to this country are assets to our community and came here seeking the American dream, the same way my ancestors did. Are there some people who break the law? Absolutely. And should they be treated and punished? Absolutely. But the thing is, is I think painting with a broad brush that all immigrants are bad people is a terrible thing to say and it's going to be a disaster for our party.

I also think Trump is a fake conservative because he's not really supported any conservative notions. He's for raising your taxes. He's been for Obamacare. And he's also been for taking private property from small property owners and giving it to him. That's why he pays so much money for politicians, is so he can get them to take people's property through eminent domain and then he absorbs it into his casino business. So I don't think there's anything conservative about Trump. And I think ultimately when conservatives find out that he's a fake conservative, they're going to re-evaluate the race.

KEILAR: I want to ask you, senator, about this migrant crisis in Europe. It's been going on for some time now, hundreds of thousands of people seeking refuge there from Syria, from Iraq. But it seems very much in the consciousness now of Americans because of this -- this just horrible, horrific photo that we've seen of a young boy who died in the process of trying to escape Syria. What do you think about how the United States should be involved in this and if the U.S. should take in any refugees?

[13:20:15] PAUL: You know, I don't think there are any easy answers as far as how we, you know, stop war and stop famine around the world, and so it will probably continue to occur. The one thing I think we should do in the Middle East, though, that could make maybe some of these wars less harmful, is I don't think we should be arming people who hate us. I think it's sad and it's a travesty that ISIS now has a billion dollars' worth of U.S. Humvees. They ride around in our tanks. They have our weapons. They have anti-tank weapons. And I think that's a mistake because we got involved in this Syrian civil war and we got on the side of al Qaeda and ISIS, which I think was a terrible tragedy and a terrible mistake by President Obama.

We are a welcoming nation and we have accepted a lot of refugees, and I think we will continue to do so. But we also can't accept the whole world. So there are some limits. I also think that those who come to our country, we need to get them to assimilate into our country, and I don't think it's a good idea to develop whole populations within the U.S. --

KEILAR: Well, but --

PAUL: Who really don't like the U.S. So I think we have to be selective and careful, and we are a welcoming country, but we just can't take everybody.

KEILAR: You think the U.S. should play a part in this, though? Because, obviously, you know, Germany, a lot of other European countries are trying to figure out a way to accommodate some of these refugees. You see the U.S. fitting into that effort?

PAUL: Well, part of the way we can be helpful in the effort is not by furthering and making the war worse in that region of the world because they -- they flee the famine and the disaster of war. And, you know, we got involved in this Syrian civil war --

KEILAR: But it's this point, senator, they're fleeing. I'm just -- I'm just trying to get a sense, they are fleeing at this point. These refugees specifically at this point in time, where we know a lot of them --

PAUL: Right.

KEILAR: Are held up at certain parts of the border in Europe.

PAUL: Right.

KEILAR: Should the U.S. play a role in that or should the U.S. be looking more to Europe to deal with this?

PAUL: Well, the people who live there will obviously have a bigger stake in accepting refugees. But we have been a very generous nation and have accepted a lot of refugees. We've already accepted refugees from Syria. We accepted a lot from Somalia. But we've also run into some problems with accepting so many refugees that we take some of the people who could help rebuild the country.

We did this with Iraq where we won the war, but then we accepted 60,000 Iraqi refugees into our country, some of which wish us harm and have tried to attack us. The same way with Somalia. We received so many immigrants and refugees from Somalia, that many of them are part of the faction that has actually gone back to Syrian to fight against us. So I think we do have to be careful with this and we should have a warm and welcoming heart, but we also just can't accept the whole world to come here either.

KEILAR: All right, Senator Rand Paul, thank you so much for talking with us. We really appreciate it.

PAUL: Thanks for having me.

KEILAR: For the latest in politics and for the latest on all of the presidential contenders, including Senator Paul, head on over to cnnpolitics.com.

We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[13:27:33] KEILAR: We are following breaking news. A Paris prosecutor now says with certainty that a part of an airplane wing called a flaperon, you see it here, that washed up on Reunion Island in the Indian Ocean in July is part of MH-370. In a statement issued a short time ago by the prosecutor's office they said, "the investigating magistrate, along with the aeronautics expert in charge, went to Sevile to collect any useful data and the immediate communication of the data related to orders in manufacturing of the aircraft parts made explicit by the questioning of an Airbus Defense and Space technician, it allowed us to formally link one of the three numbers collected inside the flaperon to the serial number of the Boeing 777 of Flight MH-370." Those very critical numbers of the serial number very important there.

We do have an update now that I want to tell you about. It's on an image that is really, I think, captivated, horrified all of us and really personified the European migrant crisis. I do want to warn you that the photos you're about to see are very hard to watch. We now know the name of the small toddler whose body washed up on a Turkish beach. This is three-year-old Aylan Kurdi (ph) from Syria. And his father tells CNN that his family was trying to get to Europe after multiple attempts for asylum in Canada were rejected. You see pictures of him with his brother. And, sadly, his mother and his older brother also drowned. A Turkish news agency is reporting that police are holding four suspected traffickers for the deaths of 12 Syrian migrants. That includes Aylan Kurdi and his family who drowned after their boat sank.

Meanwhile, another setback for families stuck in Hungary, desperate to get to Europe. Trains were halted at a town about 19 miles outside of Budapest. These were chaotic scenes that played out as police lined the rails and ordered passengers to get off the trains. One family actually laid down in the tracks, you see them here, refusing to leave the train. Police forcibly removed them.

CNN senior international correspondent Arwa Damon is on one of those trains. She has seen firsthand what is happening there. She's joining us now by phone.

Arwa, why are authorities holding up the trains?

[13:29:59] ARWA DAMON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (via telephone): Well, Hungary has continuously maintained that it's simply abiding by the Dublin agreement and adheres to European Union laws when it comes to the whole asylum processes, which effectively dictates that an individual needs to apply for asylum at their first point of entry into the E.U.