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LEGAL VIEW WITH ASHLEIGH BANFIELD

Texas Deputy Shooting; Freddie Gray Hearings. Aired 12-12:30p ET

Aired September 1, 2015 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[12:00:15] ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everyone. I'm Ashleigh Banfield. And welcome to LEGAL VIEW.

We're going to begin in Houston this hour with that horrific shooting of Harris County Sheriff's Deputy Darren Goforth. Today we are learning some disturbing new details about the suspect in this case.

A prosecutor in Austin says this man in the yellow jump suit, Shannon Miles, was found mentally incompetent back in 2012 to stand trial on a felony assault charge. Shannon Miles was charged with aggravated assault with a deadly weapon after fighting a man at a homeless shelter. All of it over a TV remote control. The deadly weapon - and this is fascinating - according to the prosecutor, was Shannon Miles' own hands.

Miles was sent to a mental hospital for six months after which the court ruled he was competent to stand trial, but the trial did not happen. It was at that point prosecutors could not find the victim in the case and ended up dropping the case entirely.

So what implications could this possibly have on the current case he's facing? It is a serious case. It is murder. Likely capital murder. Likely death penalty. And his attorney is kind enough to join me live right now. Anthony Osso is in Houston.

Mr. Osso, thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me. As a public defender, you do some terrific work, you and your colleagues. This is going to be an extraordinarily difficult case. I have to ask you right - right off the bat, did Shannon Miles shoot that sheriff's deputy in cold blood at point blank range?

ANTHONY OSSO, ATTORNEY FOR SHANNON MILES: Well, the case is under investigation right now and so we're not in the position to advise the public as to whether or not he is the - the - is responsible for that shooting. We just met with him briefly and we're investigating the case and we're going to withhold, you know, our opinion on that right now.

BANFIELD: Understanding completely the situation that you are in. Yesterday I watched you standing next to him in this court hearing that's now airing once again on our air and I wondered if you had spoken with him. He did not enter a plea at this hearing. Is he going to enter a plea and what will it be?

OSSO: Well, In Texas, after he's indicted, we'll enter a plea on his behalf. It's just a formality. A plea of not guilty will be entered. Yesterday was just a probable cause hearing to determine if there was probable cause to bind his case over to the grand jury. So it was just a formality.

BANFIELD: And you do intend, as you just said, to enter a plea of not guilty, is that correct?

OSSO: That's correct.

BANFIELD: OK.

OSSO: The plea of not guilty will be entered, Ashleigh, until such time that the trial takes place.

BANFIELD: All right. And let's just talk about the interim.

OSSO: Sure.

BANFIELD: He was wearing a yellow jump suit, which in that jurisdiction indicates that he is in a special form of custody. Can you enlighten me a little bit more as to the exact circumstances he's in right now?

OSSO: Sure. That's typical for high-profile cases. He's in isolation. He's being housed for security purposes in isolation. That colored jump suit, which is different than the typical orange ones that offenders or actually accuse will wear, helps to - just for security purposes to delineate between the various inmates.

BANFIELD: Mr. Osso, do you know if he's in this kind of special custody due to his mental state or is he in special custody because of what you just mentioned, and that's the high profile nature of this case?

OSSO: Well, because of the high-profile nature of the case. He's housed in a facility within the jail that typically is reserved for high-profile cases.

BANFIELD: And, obviously, his mental state has become a very big story today, sir, because he has this past -

OSSO: Yes.

BANFIELD: Back in 2012 where he was deemed by a court to be incompetent to stand trial, which means you can't even assist your own defense. It means you can't even help your lawyer to help you. That is extraordinarily serious.

OSSO: Correct.

BANFIELD: What is the circumstance he is in right now given the fact you just told me you spoke with him briefly?

OSSO: Well, we spoke with him briefly before court because we were just asked to handle the case yesterday morning. And that was really more to just explain to him what to expect when he went into a courtroom. So that only required yes and no responses. We met later on in the day and talked mainly about what we would be doing from this point forward with our investigation. But, again, it didn't require him to provide us with a lot of assistance or to answer my questions. We're trying to build a trust at this point and it's really important that we do a full, complete psychological evaluation on Mr. Miles and that - and will - that will take place beginning shortly.

[12:05:13] BANFIELD: When will a psychological evaluation take place?

OSSO: Well, what will happen is, first we'll do our record gathering and we have a - we have a meeting set up today with our defense team, so we'll plan a timeline and we'll speak to various doctors to see if there's interest in working on the case with us. And then we'll get started from there. We want to review those - the documents from Vernon State Hospital. It's my understanding that's where he was placed after having been found incompetent to stand trial in 2012. That's only a few years -

BANFIELD: Back in 2012.

OSSO: Yes, 2012. And -

BANFIELD: Well, so - so this will be - obviously, this will be the defense evaluation. Is the court about to order a psychological evaluation? That is a disinterested party, not the prosecutors, not the defense, but the court that usually does this in this kind of a circumstance as well? Are you hearing that?

OSSO: Not at this time. That - it - depending upon whether or not mental illness becomes a major part of the defense in this case, that will determine what access the state would have to our client. Obviously, if this insanity becomes an issue, they would have access to our client for their own evaluations. But right now, as we speak, the court has not ordered any psychological evaluations.

BANFIELD: And, sir, I know it's very early in the case and I know you just got this yesterday -

OSSO: Sure.

BANFIELD: But is insanity the direction you think you're going here?

OSSO: Well, I don't want to mislead the public into thinking that's the direction we're going. What we'll do is what we typically do in these types of cases. And, again, we'll do a full psychological evaluation. We'll do a social history. We'll do a family history. We will know everything within the next coming weeks. We will learn everything about Mr. Miles' background and what Shannon's life was like growing up and we'll look for certain factors that often influence or could result in mental illness or cause mental illness to become an issue in a case. And -

BANFIELD: Mr. Osso -

OSSO: And so that's what we'll be talking about today.

Yes.

BANFIELD: I'm sorry to interrupt you. I have so many questions for you, though, clearly, in case that's so disturbing.

I know that you said you've only spoken to him in a preliminary way. A lot of yes-no questions and that you had a shorter episode with him later on, a chance to talk to him. Did he indicate at any time that he previously knew Sheriff Darren Goforth?

OSSO: Well, as you know, the information that he provides would be privilege and I'm certainly not in a position to share it with the public. But I will say, I've addressed this issue with the prosecutors' office directly and there's no indication that he knew the deputy personally or ever had any encounters with him.

BANFIELD: Did he say -

OSSO: So we feel comfortable -

BANFIELD: Go ahead.

OSSO: We feel comfortable that - I'm sorry. So we feel comfortable that that's not the situation.

BANFIELD: We heard a great deal of preliminary information from the prosecutor in this case in that, you know, in that first appearance, which was astounding.

OSSO: Yes.

BANFIELD: I have to say, it sounded like trial, the amount of evidence that she put forth. Is there additional evidence that you're aware of? Is there additional information? And are there statements from Mr. Miles to anyone, to police who arrested him, to anybody in holding and maybe to other people who aren't under privilege?

OSSO: OK. Well, in Texas, we have complete discovery. So we expect over the coming months that we'll be given everything that the state has available to them for the purposes of prosecuting our client. However, at this point, we do know from the probable cause hearing that, one, there is a video and there's been some references to the quality of it being grainy. We have not yet viewed it but we anticipate getting a copy and we will - we'll review it.

Secondly, there are obviously ballistics reports going back to the probable cause statement made by the D.A. yesterday in court. It appears as though they recovered - well, we know they've recovered shell casings from the scene. We - they claim to have recovered a weapon, a .40 caliber, and they tell us that they have done testing in their laboratories that indicate or suggest that the weapon and the shell casings recovered at the scene are linked together. That they were shot from that weapon. So we'll do our own independent testing.

And then there were eyewitnesses at the scene. So certainly we'll go out. Our investigators will interview or make attempts to interview these people, whoever will cooperate with us, and we'll talk to anyone who was out there that day. So we - we have our work cut out for us, sure.

BANFIELD: Yes, and then - without question. And, forgive me, I just need to ask this. I don't know if I missed this or not, but did your client make statements to the police either before or after being mirandized?

[12:10:00] OSSO: My understanding is that through my discussions with the D.A.'s office that he was interviewed. We know he was interviewed extensively. That's pretty customary in our county. And he spoke with them. According to the state or the D.A.'s office, he did not make any confessions and there's indication that he told the officers that were interviewing him that he was not involved in this shooting. So we'll look at that also.

BANFIELD: I sure hope I get another chance to speak with you as you begin what you mentioned, a very difficult case and an exhaustive investigation. I hope you'll come back with us. Thank you so much, Mr. Osso, I appreciate it.

OSSO: Thank you, Ashleigh. Take care.

BANFIELD: These are the kinds of interviews that are difficult to conduct when you are this early in a case this serious and it is public and all comments that anyone makes are on the record and can be read in court. Television interviews. So you can understand the situation Mr. Osso is in when he speaks to CNN at this early juncture.

Coming up after the break, someone who is not bound by any kind of disclosure problems. Someone who isn't under privilege. Two attorneys who can tell me exactly what was just said and, maybe more importantly, what wasn't said. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: I want to bring you in some developing news CNN has just learned and we're - with regard to the killing in Texas of that sheriff's deputy Darren Goforth. I just spoke with the attorney of the man who is standing accused of that murder. That's Shannon Miles. And his attorney, Anthony Osso, just told me that, in fact, when he was arrested, he spoke with the arresting officers. He spoke with the police. He told them that he did not have any involvement in this. He did not give any confessions. But he did have an interview with the police.

[12:15:11] We also learned that the intention, through his attorney, is to put in a plea of not guilty and that they are currently working on a defense psychiatric evaluation. Probably no surprise, the court is likely headed that way as well.

Also of note, this man in 2012, who was adjudicated in a courtroom as not competent to stand trial, effectively treated for six months and deemed competent, apparently yesterday was able to give yes or no answers to some brief questioning that that attorney had with his brand new client before that first appearance.

I want to bring in Dr. Gail Saltz, a psychiatrist and psychoanalyst and the author of "Anatomy of a Secret Life: The Psychology of Living a Lie," and also we're joined by CNN legal analyst and defense attorney Danny Cevallos.

So, Gail, first to you. With your knowledge of mental health and of competency, you have seen this play out so many times in different cases that we've covered, the competency issue comes first -

DR. GAIL SALTZ, PSYCHIATRIST & PSYCHOANALYST: Yes.

BANFIELD: And then there's possibly the issue of insanity at a far later date. Let's talk competency. You heard that attorney, Anthony Osso, say that he was able to answer yes or no questions yesterday.

SALTZ: Yes.

BANFIELD: Does that deem him to be competent? Is that a bar that is satisfactory?

SALTZ: That is not enough because to be competent you have to have a rational and factual understanding of your situation, of your case, of the facts and be able to contribute to your defense. So we don't know if yes or no had anything to do with the questions he was really being asked or whether that really demonstrates an understanding of what he was answering yes or no to. So if there's a suspicion that he is not competent, he needs more of an evaluation. And incompetence can be due to mental illness, usually severe mental illness. It could be due to a brain disease of sorts, dementia, delirium, extensive substance abuse. There are numerous reasons why someone could be incompetent and incompetence can come and go, as was seen to be the case with him in the past.

BANFIELD: Yes, I like that you said that incompetence can come and go, sort of with the cycle of mental illness as well. I'll just remind our viewers, for an example, Elizabeth Smart, when they caught her two assailants and abusers, they were incompetent to stand trial for upwards of a decade.

SALTZ: Correct.

BANFIELD: I mean it went on and on before they could be deemed and medicated.

SALTZ: Because they wouldn't be medicated.

BANFIELD: They refused to be medicated (INAUDIBLE) competent.

SALTZ: And so if you're not medicated and there's a psychotic process and therefore you're incompetent, exactly right.

BANFIELD: Danny, you also heard Attorney Osso say that yesterday - or rather he learned yesterday in having the conference with his client, Shannon Miles, that Shannon spoke with police officers, was interviewed by police officers and told police officers that he was not involved and did not give a confession. If they down the road are going towards an insanity defense, what does that information say to you? DANNY CEVALLOS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: You start with the general

proposition that giving a statement, a defendant giving a statement to police is generally bad for the defendant because even if that statement is not a confession, even if it's a statement absolving myself of any guilt, that may be a lie in which it can be proven to be a lie, or there's entirely the possibility that that statement contains words or maybe it makes him sound like he really does have a mental illness. And that statement may eventually be critical in going towards the issue of both competency and potential insanity. Because, remember, competency is about your mental state at the time of the proceedings. Insanity goes to what was in your mind - you mental state when you did the deed. So without knowing what's in the statement yet, you can go to the general proposition. Bad idea for defendants to talk to police. But once we look at the content of that statement, what does it reveal to us about his state of mind both today and possibly when this happened?

BANFIELD: I mean with the amount of evidence that that prosecutor laid out, the narrative of the crime as is evidenced by several different video cameras and a witness who had children and a brother and the evidence that matched in the garage, the ballistics, the gun, I mean there was just so much laid out yesterday. I'm wondering if the only possible solution for this man is an insanity defense. And if that is the case, if Shannon Miles said, I had nothing do with this, I was not involved, and then you go to court and say, Shannon did it but he's not guilty because he was insane, well, then you have a guy who knows right from wrong and perhaps is trying to cover up, no?

SALTZ: Maybe.

BANFIELD: Maybe?

SALTZ: Maybe. Because it's also possible to be let's say very psychotic and believe -

BANFIELD: Not know what you did?

SALTZ: Yes, that you - that you didn't do this or somebody else did.

BANFIELD: That did not work for James Holmes. That did not work for James Holmes when he shot and killed all those people, when he hurt all those people and then ran away and tried to secret himself away from that location.

[12:20:07] CEVALLOS: But that's why insanity defenses are a case-by- case analysis because mental illness manifests itself in an infinite number of forms.

SALTZ: Yes.

CEVALLOS: And each one of those forms has to be distilled down into an essential inquiry. Did they understand the nature or consequences -

SALTZ: Of his actions.

CEVALLOS: Or did they appreciate the wrongfulness of their actions? BANFIELD: There's so much more as we learn more about this case. Thank

you both for stepping in so quickly. I know that was a lot of information to process. Gail Saltz and Danny Cevallos, thank you.

SALTZ: Thank you.

BANFIELD: Coming up next, Baltimore police officers known as the Freddie Gray six are headed to court this week and their fellow officers are now having to work overtime. Find out why.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: Pre-trial hearings are going to begin this week for those six Baltimore police officers accused in the death of Freddie Gray. Gray's death in police custody back in April ignited days of violence in Baltimore. Police officers injured, businesses destroyed. Now time off has been canceled by the Baltimore Police so that they can maximize the number of officers on duty tomorrow, as well as a week from tomorrow when lawyers are set to argue a series of critical motions.

Our senior Washington correspondent Joe Johns is with us now.

And I can only guess, Joe, you're also a lawyer, I'm sure you looked into this, that six officers you probably can imagine those lawyers do not want them all tried together but want to do something called severing the cases. Are they pitching for that?

[12:25:02] JOE JOHNS, CNN SENIOR WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: They are pitching for that and it's sort of a no-brainer, Ashleigh. I mean the riots back in April took everybody by surprise. The city doesn't want to be surprised again. And, yes, it's all hands on deck for Baltimore City Police. The state police, by the way, are also being put on standby. There's something like 4,000 sworn and civilian police personnel in the city.

It's being called a precautionary move by the Baltimore City Police Department. They took some harsh criticism after the riots back in the spring that followed the death and funeral of Freddie Gray in police custody. This move is part of the preparation for those court hearings on the charges against the six Baltimore police officers. All of the officers say they're not guilty.

Now, in a statement, the police department said, "we'd rather err on the side of caution and have an abundance of people readily available as needed. We are hoping we don't need them." By the way, as far as we know, those six police officers are not required to appear in court tomorrow. The court's expected to deal with pre-trial motions, including motions to dismiss charges and take the prosecutor off the case. And then a week from tomorrow, a potential for more anxiety. There's going to be another hearing about changing the location of the trial. That's supposed to start in October.

The city's also watching for some protest activity, which has been scheduled for tomorrow outside the court. The protest organizers have said they don't want any charges dismissed and they don't want a change of venue. But, yes, severance is also on the table and - and they're going to deal with that tomorrow in the hearing as well, Ashleigh.

BANFIELD: Oh, and I can imagine that change of venue will be really aggressively argued by those defense lawyers. Joe, thank you. Keep us posted, sir. Thanks so much, Joe Johns reporting live in D.C.

Too many kids with too many guns and too little hope. That's one veteran police officer's explanation for a spike in murders across the nation. We are going to run the numbers, we are going to hit the streets when LEGAL VIEW continues.

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