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Biden Still Deciding on Presidential Run; Howard Dean Says Too Late; War of Words Between Trump And Paul; Scott Walker Drop In Polls; China Deadly Accidents; Scott Walker's Support; Dr. Ben Carson Used Fetus Tissue. Aired 1-1:30p ET

Aired August 13, 2015 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


DANA BASH, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, I'm Dana Bash in for Wolf Blitzer. It's 1:00 p.m. here in Washington, 6:00 p.m. in London, and 8:00 p.m. in Baghdad. Wherever you're watching from around the world, thanks for joining us.

And up first, Joe Biden. He is huddling with his family talking to advisers about whether to jump into the presidential race. Some Democrats concerned about the controversies brewing around Hillary Clinton have urged Biden to run. But former Democratic National Committee chair, Howard Dean, thinks it's too late. On NBC's "Today" show, he said Biden would not be the Democrats' best candidate.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HOWARD DEAN, FORMER CHAIR, DEMOCRATIC NATIONAL COMMITTEE: Well, look, I have a lot of respect for Joe Biden and he's been a terrific vice president. The problem is Joe Biden is a very good guy and probably has no appeal whatsoever to people under 35. If you go under 35, elected Barack Obama, President of the United States, that is a key part of the Democratic coalition along particularly with Latinos African-Americans and Asian-Americans.

So, I think it makes sense to have a candidate, and I think Hillary is one, I think Bernie is another, who really can turn on the under 35 set. And I think that would be a problem for Joe.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BASH: So, let's talk about all of this with CNN's White House Correspondent Michelle Kosinski and our Political Director David Chalian. Michelle, you're on Martha's Vineyard where President Obama is taking a vacation. Vice president Biden is also on vacation in South Carolina. So, what are you hearing from your sources who exactly Biden is consulting as he weighs this is decision?

MICHELLE KOSINSKI, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, apparently, he's not taking up his whole vacation on this subject. And it's hard to imagine he hasn't been reaching out all along. But keep in mind, his son died in May. He's wanted to spend this time with his family, get over the grieving process.

So, it's interesting to hear that now he is making some of those calls, from what we understand is just a few close friends, politicos that he's very close to just to kind of get a feel and put out those initial calls to get a sense of what this possibility would really look like and, you know, what the likelihood is, what they're thinking, and he really wants to hear some advice as well, Dana.

BASH: I'm sure he does. And, David, you are poring through the polls. You know them better than anybody. What are they saying about Biden? And, specifically, you just heard Howard Dean say he doesn't appeal to young voters, and young voters are sort of the backbone of the -- of the Democratic electorate. Do you think that's right?

DAVID CHALIAN, CNN POLITICAL DIRECTOR: I think it's a piece of the Democratic electorate, no doubt about it. You do want to bring some young people in. Although, as you know, Dana, they don't tend to vote in great big numbers. So, if you're putting a sort of primary winning coalition together, you're going to focus on some older voters since they tend to turn out at the polls.

But I will say this, if you look at the polls. First of all, a gallop poll out this week, Dana, showed that Democrats are sort of split as to whether or not they think Biden should get in or should get out, about half and half, or stay out, I should say, of the race.

But also what is key is if you look at our CNN ORC poll that came out of Iowa yesterday, and when we asked Democrats, Biden is down like 12 percent, compared to Hillary Clinton's 50 percent, Bernie Sanders at 31 percent.

And, significantly, Dana, if Joe Biden -- you take him out of the race, Hillary Clinton benefits from a lot of that support. So, if he's not running, she's actually even in a stronger position there.

BASH: That's an excellent, excellent point that's really kind of splitting the so-called establishment -- well, maybe not splitting but taking -- chipping away at.

Michelle, let's talk more about the personal. You mentioned the horrific, tragic issue that Joe Biden had to deal with his son, Beau, dying just a couple weeks ago, at this point. What I have been told is that Beau urged him to run before he died.

But now that that has happened, Beau Biden has small children, and Joe Biden knows, because he had his own tragedy with his wife dying when his children were small, how important it is to have sort of a parental figure there. And I'm hearing that maybe that might be a reason for him not to run because of Beau's death, to be with his children and help raise them.

KOSINSKI: Yes, I mean, it's so complicated. It's extremely emotional. Look at the timing. It's so tough. So, the people that we've talked to say that he has been torn. I mean, a few weeks ago, it was almost surprising to hear from those close to him that they didn't know if he was going to run, that he, himself, hadn't decided. And you just kind of think, well, you know, really? Not yet? When is it going to be? But it has been that wrenching for him to try to make this decision with those kinds of family influences and then looking at the lay of the land now. And as it gets later, trying to think of what kind of team he could put together, what kind of run really this would be.

[13:05:08] And we even heard from some here in wash -- in Washington who said they felt bad for him given the timing, to try to weigh those two forces on him right now. It's been extremely stressful and he's wanted to be able to grieve but he's also looking at, you know, if this is going to be -- especially if this is going to be his last chance to make a run for president.

And looking at the politics of it, you know, is he going to fit into this interesting slot between Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders or is this going to be extremely -- a difficult uphill climb for him -- Dana?

BASH: That's exactly right, Michelle. And, David, I'm sure you hear from, you know, top Democrats around Washington like I do. Look, Joe Biden is beloved. And I think that is maybe part of the reason why those who love him are saying, well, you know what? Do you really want to do this right now given the personal situation and given the fact that it is likely an uphill battle for you? Don't you kind of want to just ride off into the sunset being remembered as a good vice president? Do you think that that's a consideration that you're hearing from your Democratic sources?

CHALIAN: Without a doubt, it is a consideration and it is why, as you're saying, many Democrats who actually are very fond of Joe Biden, fans of Joe Biden who are concerned that if he gets into this race, that he might do some damage to the legacy he's been building.

Remember, even with the e-mail controversy swirling around her or Hillary Clinton's number is down on honest and trustworthiness, she is still one of the most formidable front-runners we've seen for a party nomination that is not involving an incumbent president. That's a daunting task that Joe Biden who, remember, has done this twice before, knows all too well sort of what it would actually take. And he doesn't really have anything organizationally built yet. I'm not saying he wouldn't have time to do that.

But, Dana, it's also because of how beloved he is that the Democratic Party is going to give him as much space and time to --

BASH: Yes.

CHALIAN: -- sort of make this decision as he needs.

BASH: Absolutely. Well, you know, that is -- that is nice to see that there is some patience kind of all around him. David and Michelle, thank you so much.

We're going to continue this conversation, get more perspective on a possible Biden presidential run and other developments in the race for the White House. Joining us now is former Michigan governor, Jennifer Granholm. She is co-chair of Priorities USA Action, a Super PAC supporting Hillary Clinton, and Jeffrey Lord who is a CNN Political Commentator and former Reagan White House political director. He also writes in support of Donald Trump.

Jeffrey, let me start with you. What's your take on a possible Joe Biden bid?

JEFFREY LORD, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: You know, one of the sad ironies of American politics is that when major political figures suffer a tragedy, the public seeing them thrust into a -- you know, a very public and very searing personal moment, rallies to them in some way. And I am just curious to see whether or not if the vice president decides to do this, whether or not the whole situation with his son will have an impact on his reception.

I mean, I -- you can go back to American history, this happens time after time. The late senator, Charles Percy, was involved in a Senate race which he was trailing in 1966. And out of the blue, there was an intruder in his home, murdered his daughter. The campaign was suspended. He was subject to, of course, this incredible wave of sympathy. And that more or less ended the campaign and he won, you know, going away.

Those kinds of things have repeated themselves and I'm just a little curious here to see how this plays out because, lord knows, this has been a real tragedy for the vice president and I think the American public is aware of it.

BASH: Jennifer, you're obviously pro-Hillary Clinton. Does a Biden run -- just the pure politics of it, does a Biden run worry you?

JENNIFER GRANHOLM, CO-CHAIR, PRIORITIES USA ACTION: You know, I'm also a big Biden fan. I helped to prepare him in his debate against Sarah Palin. So, I mean, everybody on team Clinton are Biden fans. And I would say, I'm sure team Sanders feels the same way. Let's just let him make his decision in the way he needs to. If he jumps in and there's more competition, so much the better. There's a good competitive race, but allow him to make that decision.

BASH: OK. So, let's move on to something, Jennifer, I know you've been watching, the Republican race and a guy by the name of Donald Trump. But, Jeffrey, I'm going to start with you on this. Donald Trump and Rand Paul, they have been kind of going at it. They're the latest back and forth in -- within the Republican field.

Let me just show you what Donald Trump said of Rand Paul. Recently, Rand Paul called me and asked me to play golf. I easily beat him on the golf course and will even more easily beat him now in the world of politics. Senator Paul does not mention that after trouncing him in golf, I made a significant donation to the eye (ph) center with which he is affiliated. I feel sorry for the great people of Kentucky who are being used as a backup to Senator Paul's hopeless attempt to become president of the United States.

[13:10:07] I'm just trying to figure out what exactly he's trying to get at there because it's not clear. Paul fired back making fun of Trump. Look at this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. RAND PAUL (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We have now people up there who say such profound things as, you're stupid. You're fired. You're a pig. You look terrible. You are only -- you only have half a brain. And then, when you respond with an argument, it's, like, you're stupid. Or my favorite is, you know, the reason I tell women they're ugly is because I'm so good looking.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BASH: I think he needs to work on his Donald Trump imitation. But aside from that, Jeffrey, on the substance of what he's saying, Paul's criticism that Trump is just name calling and a bully and that he doesn't have a lot of substance behind what he says.

LORD: Well, you know, I looked at the CNN poll and the internals here, and time after time after time in this poll of Iowa Republicans, they are giving Donald Trump far and away the highest marks on handling the economy, on handling terrorism, illegal immigration, et cetera. So, whatever Senator Paul may think, in fact, at least those who identify themselves as the most likely goers to the Republican caucus in Iowa, have a -- quite a considerably different opinion. And I think that's a pretty big deal here. And, to be candid, I think Senator Paul knows this and this is his way of trying to deal with it. I'm not sure it's the most effective way but I think that's what he's trying to do.

BASH: Jennifer, is there anything about a Trump candidacy that concerns Democrats? I mean, you hear him. He insists that he would be the one to beat Hillary Clinton. And the polls are, I would say, mixed on that. But, you know, until now, the Democrats have been kind of --

GRANHOLM: Mixed?

BASH: -- have been -- have been --

GRANHOLM: I would say she trounces him pretty good, but anyway.

BASH: Well, you know, who knows. But, the Democrats, to your point, have been chomping at the bit for a potential race between Hillary Clinton or a Democrat and Donald Trump. But is there anything, besides maybe his big war chest or his big bank account, that worries you?

GRANHOLM: Well, not really. I mean, I encourage the fight on the Republican side. It's very -- it's very entertaining to watch. But I'll say this, Dana, if you look at that ad that Rand Paul put out against Donald Trump -- so, I encourage the viewers of CNN to look at that because, in that ad, he quotes Donald Trump as saying that the economy does better under Democrats and Hillary Clinton is great.

And, you know what? The economy does do better under Democrats. Twice as many jobs created under Democratic presidents than under Republican presidents since 1960. More people are insured under Democratic presidents than under Republican presidents.

As we saw yesterday from the CDC numbers, more people are insured than at any in the U.S. history thanks to the Affordable Care Act. So, you know, I encourage people to watch that. And, in the meantime, Democrats can just put up your feet and break out the popcorn because this is really an interesting fight, on the Republican side.

BASH: And I will say, as we wrap up this conversation, that Donald Trump says that he has evolved and changed. And he said, never mind a stone not changing but he says, of course, a piece of granite, only a piece of granite would not evolve. It can't just be regular stone, it's got to be granite that doesn't evolve.

GRANHOLM: But the facts don't change. The facts don't change. Let me just say that.

BASH: Thank you, Jennifer. Thank you, Jeffrey. Hopefully we'll continue this conversation soon.

LORD: OK, Dana, thank you.

GRANHOLM: You bet.

BASH: And coming up, from first in the Iowa polls to tied for third, is Scott Walker's regular guy style still resonating with voters? I'll ask his campaign manager. And later, the massive explosion in China. A look at why deadly industrial accidents are so common in that country.

[13:14:01]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[13:18:11] BASH: Donald Trump has come under fire for his comments about women. Jeb Bush was criticized for his comments last week about the cost of women's health care. So how do women view the field of GOP hopefuls? Dr. Ben Carson is the top choice in Iowa in our new CNN/ORC poll. Donald Trump stands second, while Bush and Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker are way back tied with just 4 percent.

Let's bring in Rick Wiley, who is Scott Walker's campaign manager, live from Madison, Wisconsin.

Good to see you, Rick.

I was with you, as you remember, and your boss a few -

RICK WILEY, SCOTT WALKER'S CAMPAIGN MANAGER: (INAUDIBLE).

BASH: A few weeks ago well (ph) in his RV tour through Iowa. He had been really riding high there. He had a healthy lead for months. It's slipping now and you saw our new poll, third place in Iowa. What do you attribute that to?

WILEY: Well, I think, you know, there's a lot of time to go in this race and you've been with us in Iowa, record crowds when we - when we go around the tour. This nomination has to be earned. It's not a coronation. Much like Hillary Clinton wishes it was a coronation on the Democratic side. So we're going to be out there. We have completed nearly 20 percent of our 99 county tour in Iowa. We're going to be back there very soon. As a matter of fact, we're going to be there on Monday. So, you know, it's a long haul and, you know, these polls are going to fluctuate all over the place and I think every - every person in my position would tell you the same thing. So I feel really good about where we are, Iowa, New Hampshire, South Carolina, Nevada, through the March states. So it's steady and moving forward.

BASH: Sure. I mean, you know, the blessing and the curse of being number one at the beginning is that you only have one place to go from there unless you stay, right? So it certainly is a mixed blessing.

But let me ask you about this specific poll because on the rise right now, beating your candidate, Scott Walker, in the polls, are nonpolitician candidates, Donald Trump, neurosurgeon Ben Carson. Governor Walker is a career politician. He's been in elected office since he was in his early 20s. So how much is his resume, given the mood out there, holding him back?

[13:20:15] WILEY: I don't think at all. I think what you - what you have going on right now is, people are fed up with Washington. I mean they're frustrated at the gridlock out there. Nothing has moved. I mean - and that's what you're seeing. So it's not - it's not uncommon to see people who are not from Washington, D.C., leading in these polls. And - and I think you can argue certainly that Scott Walker is about as far removed as Washington, D.C., as you can be.

What it's going to take to move this country forward is a record of accomplishments, executive leadership. Someone who has rolled up his sleeves and got it done. And that's Scott Walker. And I think that's what you're going to see through the long haul of running a presidential campaign.

BASH: Let's talk about the woman on the other side of the aisle, Hillary Clinton, turning over her e-mail server to the Justice Department. I was with Ohio Governor John Kasich yesterday in New Hampshire. He said it's too early to really know what it means. And you have the other extreme, Donald Trump, who said this to Jake Tapper.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE (voice-over): What she did is a real problem for her. I don't know, frankly, that she'll be able to run because it just looks to me that the whole e-mail thing is a very criminal situation and it could cause problems for years to come.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BASH: Rick, criminal? Does your candidate, Scott Walker, agree with that?

WILEY: Well, I think it's - it's a potentially troubling and certainly potentially a criminal offense. I mean this - this is, you know, the inspector general for the intelligence community has said there were - there were classified documents on a - in a private e-mail server, a couple of which were deemed top secret. So this is not only - this is not an e-mail issue. This is a national security issue. And, you know, the governor said it best, you know, Russia and China may have more knowledge of what's on that e-mail server than members of Congress. I mean this is - this is a potentially huge problem for Hillary Clinton out there.

BASH: That was his memorable line from the debate last week.

Rick Wiley, always good to see you. Thanks for joining us. Appreciate it.

WILEY: All right, thanks, Dana. Take care. (INAUDIBLE).

BASH: And Republican presidential candidate Ben Carson is being accused of using tissue from aborted fetuses for medical research two decades ago. The explosive claims are made by Dr. Jen Gunter (ph), an obstetrician/gynecologist who published the details in her blog. Now, Carson has repeatedly condemned using such tissue on the campaign trail.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. BEN CARSON (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Virtually everything that can be attributed to progress by using fetal tissue can also use other types of tissue. So I'm - if it were the only way to do something and there was no other way, it might be an argument. But under these circumstances, it really is not a legitimate argument.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BASH: And that was Carson talking to our own Jake Tapper last month. And now we have CNN senior political reporter Nia-Malika Henderson joining me now with some of the details.

So what exactly is his former colleague accusing him of doing?

NIA-MALIKA HENDERSON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL REPORTER: Well, she is say that in 1992, Dr. Ben Carson, who is, of course, a retired neurosurgeon, did research and published a research paper in 1992 on brain surgery research that he was doing, and that he used fetal tissue that was 17 weeks old. And that's cited as part of the research. He was the third author on this particular study that came out in 1992 in a very reputable medical journal. And she's essentially saying this is a contradiction between what we've heard from Dr. Carson really coming down on the use of this tissue and also sort of speculating that it's not even necessary, but here he was in 1992 using this as part of his research.

BASH: And that's really the issue, not necessarily - I mean, for some, certainly, especially in the Republican electorate, it might be whether or not he used it. But beyond that it's, is he telling the truth?

HENDERSON: Right.

BASH: But he's responding to these charges.

HENDERSON: He has. He's in New Hampshire today and, of course, this is coming up. I think we've got some sound on his response.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Why did you change your decision about whether to use fetal tissue or not?

BEN CARSON (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: To - to not use the tissue that is in a tissue bank, regardless of where it comes from, would be foolish.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But so -

CARSON: Why -- why would - why would anybody not do that?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Would you ban this now if you're saying that it's not essential?

CARSON: That's a very different thing from killing babies, manipulating them, taking their tissues, selling them. That's a very different thing. To try to equate those two things is absolutely ridiculous.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HENDERSON: So there you have his response essentially saying that to equate what Planned Parenthood is accused of doing and the kind of research that he is doing is not fair. He also has said in a statement to us that his part of this research was primarily operating on people and then comparing it to the tissues that were there in the lab. Some of them, at least according to this research paper, are from aborted fetuses.

[13:25:05] The thing that is - that makes this a big deal for Dr. Ben Carson is that he is beloved on the right. He's riding high in the polls in Iowa at this point. Folks think he did really well in that debate. And he has come out very strongly against Planned Parenthood, against the use of this fetal tissue, essentially saying that it's not necessary and that it sort of has moral implications.

BASH: And this is an early lesson for somebody who has never run before.

HENDERSON: That's right.

BASH: Just on the pure politics. The higher you go, the more people are going to take shots at you.

HENDERSON: Exactly.

BASH: And that's what's going on.

HENDERSON: Yes. This is what it means to have a former neurosurgeon running for president.

BASH: And do - and doing well.

HENDERSON: Yes.

BASH: People are paying attention. HENDERSON: Exactly.

BASH: Nia, thank you so much.

HENDERSON: Thank you.

BASH: Appreciate it.

And still ahead, buildings leveled, cars torched, and dozens of people dead. That's only part of the devastation following massive explosions in China. The new images coming in and how the disaster could be part of a dangerous trend in that country.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[13:30:12] BASH: Fires are still burning all over a major port city in China.