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DR. DREW

New Details in Sam DuBose Shooting: What Was Inside the Car When It Was Pulled Over; Bobbi Kristian Photo Sold to the Highest Bidder; Another Lion Is Killed By American Hunter in Africa; Another Terrible Escalator Accident in China. Aired 9-10p ET

Aired August 3, 2015 - 21:00:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[21:00:08] DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST: Tonight, breaking news in the case of an unarmed black man shot and killed by a police officer. Plus, another

lion is killed an American hunter in Africa. And, Bobbi Kristina`s casket photos sold to the highest bidder.

It all starts now with our breaking news. Tonight, we will know more about what was inside the car when Sam DuBose was pulled over. Take a look at

that traffic stop that eventually turned deadly.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RAY TENSING, FORMER UNIVERSITY OF CINCINNAT POLICE DEPARTMENT WHOSHOT AND KILLED SAM DUBOSE: OK. Well, until I can figure out if you have license

or not, go ahead and take your seat belt off for me.

SAMUEL DUBOSE, AFRICAN-AMERICAN MALE SHOT AND KILLED BY RAY TENSING: Man why you --

TENSING: Go ahead and take your seatbelt off. -- Stop. Stop!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER (voice-over): Frame by frame, you see the police officer reach for DuBose`s door. He asked DuBose, who is driving on a

suspended license to remove his seatbelt.

DuBose starts the car. It begins to move. The officer`s gun comes out. He shouts, "Stop. Stop!" Then the gunshot. Car speeds up, the officer is

on the ground. The gun in front of the camera.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER (voice-over): This is the video slowed about 20 percent. You can hear the car engine. The officer shout twice and

then that single fatal shot.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: The video also show Sam DuBose handing the officer a bottle of what appears to be alcohol. This is what we have new information on watch

this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TENSING: What is that bottle on the floor there?

DUBOSE: Oh, that is a bottle of air freshener.

TENSING: Bottle of what?

DUBOSE: You can smell it. It is air freshener.

TENSING: OK. You have a license on you?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: Tonight, we know that bottle that was labeled gin was air freshener. It was not gin at all. Tests found the liquid negative for any

ethyl alcohol and consistent with compounds commonly found in fragrance products such as air fresheners and perfumes.

Joining me, Anneelise Goetz, attorney and host of "Your Life And The Law" Podcast; Vanessa Barnett, HipHollywood.com; Mike Catherwood, "My Love Line"

an KABC co-host. He also a host of "Chain Reaction" on GSN. Rolonda Watts, ost of "Rolonda On Demand" podcast and Lisa Bloom, trial attorney at

the Bloom Firm and legal analyst at Avvo.com. Vanessa, I am not used to seeing air fresheners in a gin bottle, is that unusual?

VANESSA BARNETT, HLN CONTRIBUTOR: It is not unusual. It is common, especially in that area, especially with that culture. And, what it is, is

it is just a condensed oil. It is like an innocence oil, and they washed out these gin bottles. They put them in there, sometimes water bottles.

It is not -- you know, he said it was an air freshener and it was. He was not lying.

PINSKY: He was not lying. It was.

BARNETT: Yes. And, so, I guess if you are not familiar with that by all accounts it looks like gin. You will think it is gin, but no it is a

cultural thing, I guess, in that area.

PINSKY: It is so peculiar. I mean I could not understand --

BARNETT: But, not really.

PINSKY: -- but he should have known that. The cop should have -- the police should have known that, right?

BARNETT: Yes. I mean if white people do it as recycling. He does it and all of a sudden, you know? I have seen white people turn wine bottles into

flower vases. So, I am just saying. You know, that is recycling at its best.

(LAUGHING)

PINSKY: Does it matter, Lisa, what was in the bottle? And, it really does not matter, is not it?

LISA BLOOM, TRIAL ATTORNEY AT THE BLOOM FIRM AND LEGAL ANALYST AT AVVO.COM: Right.

PINSKY: It does not justify shooting somebody.

BLOOM: The point is it is all completely irrelevant to the shooting. But what it is relevant to is what we see in these cases over and over again is

that kind of vilifying the victims.

BARNETT: Yes.

BLOOM: Trying to find something immediately to make the victims of police shootings look bad, even if it had been alcohol. Even if he had been under

the influence, even if he had been trying to drive away, the shooting would not have been justified.

PINSKY: Right, and you agree of course?

ANNEELISE GOETZ, ATTORNEY AND HOST OF "YOUR LIFE AND THE LAW" PODCAST: I do agree. And, I think that Lisa makes a good point. I think we see it in

rape cases as well. You know, you go after the victims. You start demonizing the victim, and it is sad. And, I think that when you are going

to look at this situation, obviously this cop is going to make the argument that my actions were justified. It was self-defense.

And, if they are going to make the argument, "Oh, I thought he was under the influence, I think it is a tough one to make. Because, you see in that

video, he pulls it out. He hands it to him, and the officer does not follow up and say, "Oh, have you been drinking?"

PINSKY: No, he did not --

GOETZ: There does not seem to be any kind of field sobriety. He takes look at it. He puts it on the top of the car and never thinks twice about

it.

PINSKY: So, it was really a nonissue with this whole thing.

GOETZ: Yes.

PINSKY: Rolonda, the sister said something. The victim said something interesting. This gentleman was arrested like dozens of times, maybe 50

times or something. And, she goes, "Well, look, people want to turn that into an issue, you can see in his record he had no problem being arrested

without any hassle. He would just give himself up and be arrested. He would not hassle anyone."

ROLONDA WATTS, HOST OF "ROLONDA ON DEMAND" PODCAST: Well, what is that they call it? Your M.O., the you operate or the way you work. And, even

in a negative connotation, the proof is in the positive, in terms of, he was not running away necessarily.

I mean I think that everybody has brought up an excellent point in the fact that he never once said, "Have you been drinking?" or "I smelled alcohol,"

all of a sudden this is like the old hand grenade thrown in. "Hey, look over there," so you are not looking over here."

PINSKY: But, again, it seems weird to me that we are even having that conversation.

MICHAEL CATHERWOOD, "LOVE LINE" AND KABC CO-HOST AND HOST OF "CHAIN REACTION" ON GSN: That is the thing.

(CROSSTALK)

WATTS: A life was lost.

[21:05:00] PINSKY: -- drunk driving just because he was shooting --

WATTS: Yes.

CATHERWOOD: Also, I do not think that anybody even Mr. DuBose`s own family would argue that he has had problems with the law.

PINSKY: Right.

CATHERWOOD: His entire life.

PINSKY: Right.

CATHERWOOD: He is probably a career criminal. Nothing that is shown in his police record had anything to do with the fact that he was shot at

point black range --

PINSKY: Yes.

CATHERWOOD: -- without at all reaching for a weapon or putting that cop in danger.

PINSKY: Well, let me bring in John Cardillo. He is a former NYPD Police Officer, host of "John Cardillo Show" on 1290 WJNO. John, there are other

things found in the car, is that true?

JOHN CARDILLO, FORMER NYPD POLICE OFFICE AND HOS OF JOHN CARDILLO SHOW" ON 1290 WJNO: Yes. Yes. The most significant is two pounds of weed. Two

pounds of marijuana in the vehicle, and thousands of dollars in cash from illegal drug sales.

And, so this debunks the narrative that this was a routine traffic stop. No such thing as routine traffic stop as we saw in Memphis, where Officer

Sean Bolton murdered. Going a police officer, simply an illegally parked car.

And, if DuBose was really going to pick up his 9-year-old son to go to a movie, was he doing this with 2 pounds of weed and the proceeds of illegal

drugs was also in the car? So, this changes the dynamic of the entire encounter and changes the motive for why DuBose would want to flee.

BLOOM: No. It is not.

CARDILLO: And he certainly does and it raises the reasonable doubt -- of course it does. Because now you have a drug dealer trying to flee the

police, because he had drugs. It most certainly does count --

(CROSSTALK)

BARNTT: But, it still gives no reason as to why he was shot in the face.

CARDILLO: Hold on. Hold on. It does gives a reason as to what the officer might have observe in DuBose`s behavior that we even have not seen

on the video. We now know --

BLOOM: OK, but none of that made it into the police record.

PINSKY: It did not?

BARNETT: We now know. You are talking about things we now know.

CARDILLO: Wait a minute.

(CROSSTALK)

BLOOM: We have to judge --

CARDILLO: Hold on.

BLOOM: If I may --

CARDILLO: Hold on.

(CROSSTALK)

BLOOM: We have to judge the police officer by what he knew at the time. And, not try to create evidence afterwards of what might have been on mind.

WATTS: And, pray it was not planted.

(CROSSTALK)

CARDILLO: Why is the prosecutor selectively releasing good details about air fresheners? -- excuse me. And, hiding details about 2 pounds of weed.

This is highly relevant and as a defense attorney, you would be --

BLOOM: I do not think it is relevant at all, and I will tell you why. Because what does having marijuana in a car have to do with the threat to

the officer, that justified him shooting to kill a man who was sitting in the driver`s seat complying with all his directives.

CARDILLO: A man who started his vehicle and began to pull away to possibly what we now know evade a felony drug arrest and go to jail --

(CROSSTALK)

BARNETT: You are talking about things, but we now know. We are not after that.

WATTS: Listen. You can always deal with what they --

CARDILLO: Hold on. It does not matter what we know. It only matters what the criminal thinks a police officer knows. When a police officer walks up

to a car, that he thought passed the red light, but the occupants robbed a bank. And, they shoot them in the face, they think he knows they robbed a

bank.

So, DuBose, may not have known that the officer did not realize that there were 2 pounds of weed or did not smell it. Everyone is giving the benefit

of the doubt to a guy arrested 60 times with pounds --

WATTS: No, we are giving the benefit of the be doubt to a man who was shot dead by a police officer again. That is what we are giving --

CARDILLO: Resisting a police officer in a course of what we now know was the commission of a felony.

(CROSSTALK)

BARNETT: Well, why did not he arrested him for those?

WATTS: But, why did not he call his backup. You do not have to shoot someone dead. Call your back up. It was not like the guy zoomed off. He

rolled off.

PINSKY: All right.

CARDILLO: Call for backup? It was a split seconds? The guy started the car and took off like a guy out of hell.

BLOOM: But, one really --

BARNETT: Guy out of hell?

WATTS: Guy out of a hell!

BLOOM: It is not legally justified. It is illegal under the constitution, under the Supreme Court decisions in the United States to shoot somebody

even who is fleeing a police officer, unless there is an imminent threat to the police officer --

CARDILLO: That is wrong. That is wrong.

BLOOM: No. You can shut me down all you want, but this is actually the law in the U.S. You cannot just shoot to kill because someone is fleeing

from a police officer.

CARDILLO: That is wrong. Tennessee V. Garner says the police can, counselor.

BLOOM: If there are threats to the police officer or someone else, not just because they are fleeing.

(CROSSTALK)

PINSKY: Stop right here. Stop it, everybody. Stop. Josn, hold on. John, I got to turn you off. Turn him off. Turn him off, please. There

we go. Thank you. Next, we are going to continue this conversation. John, thank you. We are going to get back to you, do not worry. This is a

case of point for decriminalization of cannabis.

BARNETT: Yes.

PINSKY: A lot of real unnecessary jail time, unnecessarily lost of life, unnecessary police time spent doing watts, so the guy cannot get stoned. I

do not get it. Later, someone took a photo of Bobbi Kristina in her casket and then sold it for the highest bidder. We have that and more after this.

(MUSIC PLAYING)

[21:09:34] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: We have another case here where a routine stop ends with a dead body.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE DETERS, HAMILTON COUNTY PROSECUTOR: This is the most asinine act I have ever seen a police officer make.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HARRY HOUCK, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST & FORMER POLICE DETECTIVE: There is no way in hell that I can defend this officer`s actions.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARC LAMONT HILL, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Police officers do not get indicted for killing citizens, unless we watch them do it on tape.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STEW MATTHEWS, ATTORNEY FOR UNIVERSITY OF CINCINNATI POLICE OFFICER RAY TENSING: I am not shocked that there was an indictment, a

murder indictment just astounds me.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DETERS: Purposeful killing of another. That is what makes it murder. He purposely killed him.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SUNNY HOSTIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Too soon for any prosecutor to say that there is no defense. For any prosecutor to say that this is a slam

dunk, because it is never really a slam dunk.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: You know what strangely occurs to me, guys? Is that it is going both ways now. In Memphis tonight, a cop was killed just for walking up to

what he thought was a parked car, right?

And, police have been -- I mean what is going on? Again, this is the same question I asked over and over again, what is wrong with us? I mean tell

the story about the robot.

CATHERWOOD: Oh, the decapitated robot?

PINSKY: Yes. Yes.

CATHERWOOD: So, this robot -- this Canadian robot --

PINSKY: I mean, this is going from something serious to something --

CATHERWOOD: But it does show how --

PINSKY: -- what I am talking about. Yes.

CATHERWOOD: Canadian robot was design to hitchhike around the world. And, it went throughout all of Europe and up and down the Autopista, into the

Autobahn and then different parts of the Middle East. And, it finally made its way to America. And, it was here just under two weeks before it was

smashed and decapitated and left on the side of the road.

[21:15:03] PINSKY: What is wrong with us?

BLOOM: We have a very violent country. You are 20 times is likely to be the victim of gun violence in America as other developed countries. And,

so police officers are at risk here. There is no question about it.

And, they do put their lives on the line and many of them are victims of violence. And, also people are the victims of violence from other citizens

and police at extraordinary rates compared to other engines.

PINSKY: And, Rolonda, what is it you that was telling me your mom is fearful of being around -- was it you who said that?

WATTS: It was not me, but I will tell you this. "Essence" Magazine just recently did a poll and asked black women across the country, "Are you

afraid of police officers?" And, at the last check, more than 80 percent of those polls said, "Yes."

BARNETT: I am one of those 80 percent. We are looking --

WATTS: I am one of those 80 percent.

BARNETT: Yes. We are looking for a house, and we are driving around the neighborhood and I see police cars. And, I am like, "Ooh, I do not know if

I want to stay in this neighborhood with police cars." But, somebody else will look at it and say, "Oh, this must be a safe neighborhood. It is

always being patrolled." And, I did not even realize that, that was my thinking.

PINSKY: Let me read you a tweet I got. It is sort of a representative tweet. It was, "The cop murdered him, but why did Sam DuBose think it was

OK to disobey the cops, start the car, put it in gear, and begin to drive away?"

BARNETT: Oh my God. I am so --

PINSKY: Go ahead.

BARNETT: I am just so sick of this. Like, people disobey the law all the time. We said he was not a saint, like these things happened, but they do

not have to be killed. These people do not need to be killed.

And, that is the issue that people are having. These simple routine stuffs. These simple acts of -- he should be arrested. He should be

given his due process. He should not be murdered at point blank. That is the issue.

CATHERWOOD: And, I think that both of that tweet and what Vanessa is saying, both are true. And, that is what -- I think with this case in

particular, we are arguing the same thing and about two different issues, if that makes any sense.

That this man was disobeying the police, and that this new evidence about the fact that he was carrying 2 pounds of marijuana, does change his

motives for maybe wanting to flee the scene. It does not at all change the fact that almost senselessly, almost impossibly he was shot at point blank

range.

(CROSSTALK)

PINSKY: But, I want to --

CATHERWOOD: Now, if this cop were to drag him out of the car, handcuffed him and take him to jail, we would not be having this conversation.

PINSKY: Right.

CATHERWOOD: It was so strange that he all of a sudden pulled out a gun and shot him.

PINSKY: So, I want to bring John Cardillo back, former NYPD Officer. Now, John, you get where I am going here. I mean it is -- it is not -- it is

going both ways. I mean what is wrong with us? You have a sense of what I am talking about?

CARDILLO: Yes. I do, Dr. Drew, and what I want the panel to understand -- the two most --

PINSKY: Oh-oh, losing you, buddy. John? Oh, completely lost.

CATHERWOOD: I have a question for Rolonda --

PINSKY: Yes, go ahead.

CATHERWOOD: -- and for Vanessa. Is it the fact that you as women are honestly scared of police is that because you are American citizens,

because you are women or because you are black?

WATTS: Both.

BARNETT: Yes, black women. Yes, absolutely. I think --

PINSKY: The real thing for me is, how do we change that? Because part of the problem is this culture fear we live in, right?

BLOOM: Accountability.

BARNETT: Yes.

BLOOM: That is how we change this. We hold police officers accountable when they pull a gun and shoot a guy in the head.

PINSKY: Well, are that the cams? The lapel cams --

BLOOM: The cams are absolutely -- Listen. This has been going on for centuries.

BARNETT: Right.

BLOOM: It is only now that people are starting to believe African- Americans, who had been claiming this forever, because you cannot avoid seeing it with your own two eyes. And, even when we do see it with our own

two eyes, there is still people like your guys just say, "Well, no! He had marijuana in the car. Well, no, he had an arrest records."

WATTS: It seems like the only way just like we heard earlier -- the only way to get the indictment is if you have it on video and the entire nation

sees it point blank --

BARNETT: And, sometimes you still will not get it.

BLOOM: It is, Eric Garner.

(CROSSTALK)

WATTS: And still -- and even then, but I think it also comes down to respect. As much as I dog out the cops, I am going to tell you the truth,

I do respect them. I have lost friends who are cops. I understand that. And, I think there has to be a tremendous amount of respect that goes both

ways.

BARNETT: Absolutely.

WATTS: We, citizens, have to learn what to do if you are stopped by a cop, trust me, and you also -- we also have to learn respect on both sides. I

also believe just like you said. I am from North Carolina, they put plantars in toilets in the front yard. We use containers for all kinds of

things. And, if this is a cop, who covers that country community, he needs to understand the more race of the culture and the culture creature --

BARNETT: Right.

PINSKY: We are talking about the gin bottle now?

WATTS: The gin bottle. If he did not smell alcohol and he knew that culture, he might have known. "Oh, his grandma thought him about that."

You know? But that is true.

BARNETT: Right.

PINSKY: Anneelise, I am going to ask you something. They are charging this cop with murder. Are they overcharging? Are we going to be having

this conversation and how many months down the line when the jury does not convict?

GOETZ: I think we have to have more evidence to come out before we know if he is, actually, being overcharged or not? We have this before --

PINSKY: Is it a good thing to charge him?

GOETZ: I think it is good, and I think that there is an inherent disconnect where a prosecutor does not want to charge a police officer with

murder. They do not. They work together. They are both partners in fighting crimes. And, so when you see a prosecutor take a case like this

and then go big with the murder charge, I think that he has a lot of evidence to back it up.

PINSKY: OK.

GOETZ: And, I do not -- There is always going to be the argument that the officer has a legitimate basis for the fear that -- and therefore he

shot this guy.

[21:20:00] But, I think that, that prosecutor has a very, very strong case or we would not see the murder charges, because they inherently do not like

to fight with the police officer.

BLOOM: And they have the video, but let us keep in mind there is also two or three other officers who covered up for this guy.

PINSKY: But, no, I heard --

BLOOM: Do they forget there was a video when they said, "Oh, he was about to get run over?"

PINSKY: Now, Lisa, I heard in the grand jury testimony, they did not confirm that dragging the allegations that he made, but that is what I

heard. But, John, I want to get you -- I got you back. I want you to finish your thought there. You were talking just a minute ago. Go ahead.

-- Oh, we still lost, John.

CARDILLO: Yes. I was saying that the two most dangerous calls police --

PINSKY: Go ahead.

CARDILLO: -- police officers encounter are domestic violence and car stops. And, so, we saw this with Sean Bolton. He was blown away, walking

up to what he thought was an illegally parked car.

For us to sit here and say this was murdered is simply ridiculous, and they are not going to get the murder conviction. Also, the other two police

officers were not indicted. The grand jury returned no true bill after watching the video, because when they arrived they saw --

PINSKY: Oh, boy.

CARDILLO: -- and believed he had been dragged by the vehicle.

PINSKY: John --

CARDILLO: So, those officers are facing no charges and there is no lie.

PINSKY: OK. Thank you, John. Thank you, panel.

Next up, another African lion has been killed by an American hunter. I got somebody here to explain, why and defend it. And, later, who would take a

picture of Bobbi Kristina in her casket and then sell it? Who would buy it? Back after this.

(MUSIC PLAYING)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[21:25:26] CHRISTOPHER CHARLES "CHRIS" CUOMO, CNN CO-HOST OF "NEW DAY" MORNING SHOW: A second American is now wanted in connection with the

killing of a lion in Zimbabwe.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: Official say that this other doctor killed a lion in a restricted area. The owner of the farm where it happened has

been arrested because that person reportedly did not have a permit.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JEFFREY CORWIN, ANIMAL CONSERVATIONIST: It is incredible that these people are making these fumbles that they are not following the laws of these

regions and, I mean, it is black white. You do not hunt in a National Park.

But, if you look at the whole statistics, overall hunting is decreasing. It legalized big game hunting. You get about 50 to 60 million tourists go

to Africa every year. And, of that number maybe about 18,000, 19,000 people are hunting.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CUOMO: Who is really to blame for these incidents. What is going on here? What is legal? What is not? And, how do they get prevented and should

they?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: And, another American hunter in the crosshairs after he killed a lion in Africa. I am back with Anneelise, Vanessa, Mike, Rolonda and Lisa.

And, joining us now is Sandra Clark, Animal Rights Activist and I got Cameron Hanes. He is a big game bow hunter and extreme athlete. There he

is on Skype. Mike, what do we know about this second hunter?

CATHERWOOD: The Zimbabwe Government alleges that a Pennsylvania doctor was involved in an illegal hunt back in April. The Safari guy whose client he

was has been arrested. For the record, the Zimbabwe and government has not confirmed that his prey was a lion. Unlike in the case with the dentist,

Walter Palmer, have not requested to extradite him.

PINSKY: And, there has been extrajudicial request. Lisa, should we cooperate, U.S.?

BLOOM: Absolutely, we should cooperate. You know, if you are American and you go overseas, you do not get to do whatever you want. You have to

follow the laws of the country you go to. Show a little bit of respect. And, if he violated the law, I say lock him up.

PINSKY: And, what is going to happen to him? Everybody know?

BLOOM: He could be locked up for up to 10 years. Pay a substantial fine. You know, the other problem I have is that the locals get arrested for

these crimes, and the wealthy Americans or Europeans who actually are the killers of these beautiful animals, they generally get away with it. It is

only because of the outcry that they are even going after Walter Palmer.

PINSKY: And, Vanessa, you had a little discomfort with the fact that we were all so -- I mean -- you know, you understand why people are upset

about the lion, but --

BARNETT: I was just a little taken aback. I wrote about it on Facebook, actually, that I was seeing all these Cecil, the lion, and you know, lion

lives matter. And, I just saw it more than I saw black lives matter. And, I was upset, and I was just speaking, about how yes, these animal lives

matter, but it should not be more than black lives.

There are so many lives that are lost and lives is general. And, then we have this one lion, and it was everywhere. I feel like we have dominion

over animals. we are the superior species around here, and so --

SANDRA CLARK, ANIMAL RIGHTS ACTIVIST: I disagree.

PINSKY: Sandra.

CLARK: 100 percent.

BARNETT: I think it is --

CLARK: I do not think anyone who is rooting for Cecil, the lion`s name to live on is saying anything about other lives being less than. I think this

is just the beginning of what is happening.

PINSKY: Well, you actually went into a convention, right, Sandra?

CLARK: Yes.

PINSKY: Where there were -- there is a whole world that I did not know about. I have heard people say that conservation is supported through

these very expensive big game hunt.

CATHERWOOD: My friends that are American hunters --

PINSKY: Yes.

CATHERWOOD: -- are the -- without question, the most acute conservationists I know.

PINSKY: Listen with what Sandra witnessed?

CLARK: But, why do you believe that? Mike, and the reason I asked that, when I went undercover to the largest hunting convention in the world. I

felt lured into believing that it is all about conservation. I saw a lot of awards handed out. I saw a lot of ego. I am not saying --

PINSKY: But, how was it not? How do that breakdown? Why was it not about conservation?

CLARK: Because, I do not think -- I do not get it. I just do not understand where the money is going. I see the numbers of the lion

population dwindling. Where is the conservation?

PINSKY: Lisa, you were in Zimbabwe, right? You said, the locals say they do not see the money, is that right?

BLOOM: Yes, absolutely. I have been to conservation parks, and then maybe I am going to challenge because you no more of a conservationist than

somebody who goes and actually pay the money for a park that protects the animals. If you love animals, why would you go for sport and shoot them

dead.

CATHERWOOD: I think that makes a difference.

BLOOM: And, by the way, how is it a sport if one side is armed and the other side does not know the game is on.

PINSKY: Let me ask somebody. Cameron, you are there?

CAMERON HANES, BIG GAME HUNTER: Yes.

PINSKY: Tell us about this.

HANES: Well, it is hard -- I think there is a lot of misinformation still out there. You know, I think some of the information is coming from

Facebook. The latest case that they are talking about, the illegally killed lion. There was no prosecution there, so that is false.

[21:30:00] CLARK: Well, it is going to happen, though, soon. It should happen.

HANES: But, you said, it did happen, so there is prosecutor. But, anyway, the fact hunters do care about animals. They like here at home, I live in

Oregon, all the money I pay, and all the fellow hunters here for fishing well, for tags, licenses, everybody is doing it legal, and all that money

goes for conservation.

I mean it is a balancing act. We are over animals. We are not equal with animals. People try to humanize, especially Cecil or Cicil, whatever the

lion`s name is, they try to humanize it, and you feel bad or whatever. I mean it is hunting. It was unfortunate he crossed the line, ended up

getting killed. We do not know the facts for that. But, hunters are here for the animals. This is --

CLARK: I disagree.

(CROSSTALK)

BARNETT: I just do not get what animals were supposed -- sometimes it is like, "Yes we can take some animal lives and this is legal, but no not the

famous lion. We do not want you to kill him." And, I just need some consistency, and no I was not saying that once you said that Cecil -- I am

not saying that you cannot be concerned about Cecil and black lives.

(CROSSTALKS)

PINSKY: One at a time.

BARNETT: I was just saying that there are people that are only concerned about Cecil and that bothers me. You can absolutely be concerned about

both.

CLARK: Well, I know a lot of people are saying the only reason people are concerned is because Cecil, the lion was this hero and well known. But,

people -- I do not believe that, that is true. If people only knew and, again, there is an expose coming out that I worked on called, "Blood

Lions."

When that comes out, people are going to see how many lions are being murdered. There can lion hunting is legal in South Africa, and this has

nothing to do with conservation.

PINSKY: But, are is it possible -- I am trying to understand why people can say this is as a conservation. Are these animals reared for hunting?

CLARK: Yes. They are bread for the bullet. They are born to be murdered.

BARNETT: I just do not understand how that is happening in this country? It is legal and some of it is not.

CLARK: Some of us do not know about it. And, the thing that frustrates me is, this is not about bashing hunters, this is about bashing people that

pretend they are hunters when they are really just murdering these animals.

And, the money is not going to the local starving people. It is going to the person that owns the land. It is going to the professional hunter.

And, again, I am just so glad that this is finally being brought out into the open.

PINSKY: Cameron, go ahead. Cameron, go ahead.

HANES: I have been over to Africa a number of times hunting, where I have been -- I was just there for three weeks last year. The money is there for

the locals. They only hire the locals to work there.

And, there was at least 20 guys. They have families. They are working. I became friends with them. Some of the gifts behind me are from the

relationships I formed there.

BLOOM: Yes, but you do not have been to do that. I have been to Africa, and I go to the parks and all the money goes to the locals too. And, I did

not kill any animals.

WATTS: That is right.

BLOOM: I do not have a giant animal head when I come home.

WATTS: I have been in Africa on Safar as well. All we shot were pictures.

PINSKY: But, I heard also there is a defense that the animals are killed and then the locals eat the animal?

CLARK: No.

PINSKY: But even that is not true, right?

CLARK: I mean it is ridiculous, because one person was arguing with me. Well, all the meat from the lion went to feed the locals." You cannot eat

lion meat. It is toxic. Nobody eats lion meat.

WATTS: Right.

PINSKY: All right. We will keep the conversation going. And, later services for Bobbi Kristina took place over the weekend. It was not a

peaceful event. Back after this.

(MUSIC PLAYING)

[21:33:32] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[21:37:37] PINSKY: People and by people I mean many of my panel members here are furious with the dentist from Minnesota who hunted, killed,

decapitated skinned a lion, a famous lion in Zimbabwe.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SAMANTHA SCHACHER, HOST OF "POP TRIGGER" ON HULU.COM: But, I do not wish harm on him. I do not, but I will call him what he is and he is a piece of

(EXPLETIVE WORD).

WATTS: Thank you.

CATHERWOOD: Whoah!

SCHACHER: Sorry! Sorry. I do not care.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CLARK: This is all happening for a reason. I think Cecil, the lion, would be very happy that there, you know, with the outpouring of love and

support.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEGMET CHUBAKA, AUDIENCE MEMBER: I am Segmet Chubaka, and I have been studying the food supply. And, unfortunately, I am on the side of the

dentist.

And, the reason why I am on the side of the Dentists is because dentist deal with mercury, OK? Dentist deal with mercury. Mercury is poisonous.

And, yes he did it for the trophy, but something was wrong with his mind.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(LAUGHING)

PINSKY: Back with Anneelise, Vanessa, Mike, Rolonda, Lisa, Sandra and Cameron. Now, I am going to go back out to Cameron. Cameron, help us

understand something. There is a lot of what should we say, argument about the conservation intent of hunters.

But, what I think where people get sort of off the rail is, if you pick up a gun and put an animal in your crosshairs and kill it, there is a

disconnect there for the average person and then say, "Oh, it is for your own good. It is for the good of the animals." Help us with that.

HANES: Well, I did want to say one thing. It is that Cecil would be very happy with this. Cecil would not care about any of this. He would not

know, he is an animal, but here is why we do what we do right here. There is no disconnect here.

Hunters are honest about where their meat comes from. This is elk and this is bear, from the bear I killed. And, that is the difference. As

hunters, want to go out. I want to be a provider. I want to be self- sufficient, and to do that, I am a conservationist.

Because if hunters are not out there and helping manage gaining populations, there is over population; old animals are sick, diseased and

or they are over grazing. Dear getting hit on the road, people are injured or killed.

It is all part of the process. We need to manage these numbers and even with lions. I do want to say one other thing. I do know people who have

eaten lion meat. So, I do not know where --

BARNETT: Ewww!

PINSKY: Are they OK?

HANES: What is that?

PINSKY: Are they OK, having eating lions?

HANES: They are fine. They are fine.

BARNETT: That is crazy.

PINSKY: We just actually looked it up, and you can eat lion meat.

BLOOM: What we do know about meat is, first of all, do not assume that if there is hunter -- do not assume that we all eat meat, because I am vegan.

I am vegetarian since 1977. I have, you know, outstanding arteries and outstanding --

[21:40:00] CATHERWOOD: Since you were one year old?

(LAUGHING)

BLOOM: It is clearly, it is better for you not to eat it at all. You do not need to.

PINSKY: Well --

BLOOM: But, I think most of us --

CLARK: I think there is a ripple effect. Let me interrupt. There is a ripple effect. This is so much bigger than what everyone is talking about.

This is not about conservation. This is about -- We are talking about this dentist. We are talking about the other doctor that went out and illegally

shot a lion.

The intention was not, "I love animals so much. I want to really pour my money into that country and conserve the lion." This is about wanting the

biggest, biggest lion possible and then what happens to the lion. The lion bones go to China or wherever. I mean this is all happening, and we do not

even know it, and this is just that.

CATHERWOOD: I get it --

BARNETT: It is like an outcry. It is like that mob mentality again.

CATHERWOOD: Yes.

BARNETT: Like we hear one thing and it is like, "Oh, my God, not the lion." And, the problem is like this has been going on for so long. And,

we talked so much about the locals. But, I read an article where the locals are like, "Why are Americans so mad, like we are not even that mad."

They also said, where were the Americans when said lion went in butchered some people in their country, where was the outrage there. So, we want to

balance some things --

BLOOM: It is different.

BARNETT: We have to balance some things out.

CLARK: We are talking about $5,000, and it is going to get this lion. It is not --

BARNETT: But we cannot pounce on this dentist like crazy people when there are hundreds of people that are hunting down elephants and walruses and

hippos and ants --

(CROSSTALK)

PINSKY: Mike. Hang on. One at a time. Hang on! Mike.

CATHERWOOD: But, the one up side is that on all fronts, whether you are an avid hunter like Cameron or if you are someone who wants to keep the focus

on human life like Vanessa, or if you are a big animal rights activist like you, Sandra, everyone, you know, can use this to raise awareness for their

cause.

And, where I get upset is that I am inundated with so many people who are saying that this guy, these dentists and this doctor now should be hung up

by their genitals and we should be able to hunt them and everything.

I go, "You cannot say that when you are going to the Orange County fair to have your double bacon loaded cheeseburger, and you are complicit and an

accomplice to the slaughter and torture of animals if you see any of these drone videos where they go over these factory farms.

BARNETT: Yes.

CATHERWOOD: And, if you are part of that, this is not even scratching the surface.

BLOOM: So, everyone should be vegan. I agree with you, Mike.

PINSKY: Hang on.

(CROSSTALK)

CATHERWOOD: In my opinion -- you should either -- in my opinion, you should be vegan or be like cameron, and feed his family like a real man

should and go out and actually killed an animal.

(CROSSTALK)

PINSKY: Now, Cameron, I know that is your point of view. And, I think Mike has rearticulating a point you are making a few minutes ago. But I

want to push on that a little further and say, "Are not some of these guys just going for the trophies?" They are not like you?

HANES: Well, yes, there probably is that. I mean you cannot lump us all into one category. But, listen, when I was there, we found a dead

elephant. This is in Tanzania, a different country. But, I asked, what did that ivory -- what did poachers - it-was a poached elephant.

What he poachers get for that ivory. They got $250 roughly. A hunter can go over there and no pay for an elephant, that a mature bull, $75,000. So,

how do you not see the value for hunters taking part. All that meat goes to the village, so I do not care what percentage the country is getting out

of that. they are getting more than $250 poachers --

BLOOM: Meanwhile, the elephant population is down in Africa dramatically. You could give the $75,000 to the village, as many philanthropists do, to

help the people of Africa, without killing an animal. You act as if that is the only way to help Africa.

HANES: Ma`am, listen.

CLARK: And, I also want to say, Cameron --

HANES: OK. Yes.

CLARK: You said that the lion does not care that Cecil, the lion does not care. How do you know that? And, I think -- and for you to think that we

are above the animals. Who do you think you are? --

CATHERWOOD: No. Listen, Sandra. Sandra, I am a huge -- I do not eat meat. I am acutely aware of how animals have feelings. But, make no

mistakes if Cecil had his choice, he would eat all of us.

PINSKY: Yes. No problem.

(CROSSTALK)

BARNETT: You are saying we are above animals is not a negative thing. We are. We are humans. We are human beings.

PINSKY: Hang on. Cameron.

BARNETT: We are above animals and that is OK.

PINSKY: Cameron. Go ahead.

HANES: Yes. One thing. OK, life in the wild is hard. It is brutal, when those animals die, do you think their families sit around holding their

hand by hospital beds. No, it is brutal. When I kill an animal -- I killed a grizzly bear, nit too long ago, arrow perfect, went about 30

seconds and it was dead. How do you think that bear would die if I would not have done that? It would not have been pretty.

PINSKY: Yes. The grizzly bear population -- these guys actually do help with the grizzly bear population.

BLOOM: That is because we killed all the predators. OK?

PINSKY: Of grizzly bears?

BLOOM: Yes, and the circle of life, you only need human beings with guns to kill animals.

(CROSSTALK)

PINSKY: OK, guys, I have to stop. Interesting stuff guys. We got to leave it. We will never get to a complete resolution. We will look for

the film when it comes out.

Next up, the drama and destruction of Bobbi Kristina`s funeral and more after this.

(MUSIC PLAYING)

[21:45:17] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[21:49: 25] Time for "Click Fix," where my guests tell me what is trending on their Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram feeds. Vanessa, first?

BARNETT: Yes, with the update on Bobbi Kristina`s funeral.

PINSKY: Oh, we are going right through this where it all started.

BARNETT: Right. Yes. She was buried next to her mother`s grave in New Jersey. They had the funeral on Saturday near Atlanta. And,

unfortunately, there was still some more drama.

PINSKY: There was live distraction, right?

BARNETT: Yes. Bobbi Kristina`s aunt, Leola Brown, she has been vocal. She reportedly began shouting, while Pat Houston was speaking during the

funeral in the church and then she was kicked out. And, immediately ran over to the reporters and started talking to them. You can take a look

here.

[21:50:00] LEOLAH BROWN, BOBBI KRISTINA`S AUNT: She will haunt Pat Houston from the grave. She will haunt her. Pat, it is not over. It has

just begun. It has just begun.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE PRESS: Why do you say that?

BROWN: I say that because I have information. I have evidence. I have knowledge of who Pat really is. And, she is not any relation whatsoever to

Krissy. She is not even a Houston. She is a Garland. But, Pat Houston has -- this is going to be a long drawn out thing, trust me. It is not

over. It is not over. I will be doing an interview and I will be speaking out and telling the truth about who pat is.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: This whole situation is so sad.

BARNETT: And, it has gotten sadder. Now, TMZ is reporting that the media outlet purchased a photo of Bobbi Kristina laying in her coffin. Someone

reportedly took it, Friday night at the viewing.

PINSKY: Well, and I see a lot of people laying blame for Bobbi Kristina`s "The arch of her life" on many of those family members.

BARNETT: Well, I mean it is quite a dysfunctional thing. You can see what the aunt are talking to the paparazzi.

PINSKY: Yes.

BARNETT: She has posted things on Facebook. She has been very, very out there with family business. I can see how it has become kind of

contentious.

PINSKY: Mike, what do you got?

CATHERWOOD: All right, this is a crazy story, especially for us Americans. This is from the U.K., where police do not carry guns, most police do not.

Two officers respond to a domestic incident, and they are confronted by a knife wielding man. The officers are armed only with batons and pepper

spray. Check this out.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED POLICE OFFICER (1): Put down the knife.

UNIDENTIFIED POLICE OFFICER (2): Put it down.

UNIDENTIFIED POLICE OFFICER (1): Spray. Put it down.

UNIDENTIFIED POLICE OFFICER (2): Put it down.

UNIDENTIFIED POLICE OFFICER (1): Put it down. Put it down.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Come on!

UNIDENTIFIED POLICE OFFICER (1): Put down the knife. Put it down. Put it down.

UNIDENTIFIED POLICE OFFICER (2): Get on the floor.

UNIDENTIFIED POLICE OFFICER (1): Put it down. Put it down. Put it down.

UNIDENIFIED MALE SPEAKER: All right. All right.

UNIDENTIFIED POLICE OFFICER (1): Get on the (EXPLETIVE WORD) floor. Get on the floor.

UNIDENTIFIED POLICE OFFICER (2): You are under arrest of possession of offensive weapon.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Yes. OK.

UNIDENTIFIED POLICE OFFICER (2): Attempting to wound ourselves.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: OK.

UNIDENTIFIED POLICE OFFICER (2): Criminal dummies.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PINSKY: The only reason I would -- what are you laughing at? .

BARNETT: I could not tell what was happening.

GOETZ: This pepper spray. It is pepper spray.

PINSKY: Yes. He lied down, but in this country that we have -- the horse is out of the barn in this country. There is so many millions and millions

of guns, how would we ever be able to control someone`s behavior with pepper spray and baton? You know what I mean, guns would come out.

CATHERWOOD: Oh, eventually. Yes, eventually. People would figure out how to make their own homemade magazine guns or so.

PINSKY: A 3D printer.

CATHERWOOD: And, also, that -- it is just so strange, like everyone involved was so respectful, through the entire thing.

(LAUGHING)

PINSKY: You are under arrest for carrying an offensive --

CATHERWOOD: That is an offensive weapon? What is a respectable weapon?

PINSKY: At the end, I say good day, sir. Yes, Anneelise, what do you got?

(LAUGHING)

GOETZ: Well, on the topic of guns, right? There is an armed bank robber on the loose that is so skilled and dangerous. The FBI has stepped in, and

they are using Twitter to help apprehend them. And, this is great, it is a perfect example of using Twitter for good. The suspect uses an AK-47

assault rifle, and it is connected to at least five and robberies in five different states.

PINSKY: Now, people are in the bank when this guy comes in.

GOETZ: Yes. Yes with the AK-47. The latest robbery happened last week in Mason City, Iowa. And, the suspect has been dubbed the AK-47 bandit. He

is a white male with a medium build. And, investigators believe he has military or police training.

The FBI has encouraged anyone with info to tweet them using the #AK47banditwanted. And, I think it is just a great example of using social

media, using Twitter for good. If you see some guy, some baler in the club with all the money, you know, looks like that guy.

BARNETT: That is the longest # in history. #AK47banditwanted

GOETZ: It is going up to take a lot of character. It is going to take a lot of character.

CATHERWOOD: They have to take him down with pepper spray and a baton. I would like to see that happen.

(LAUGHING)

PINSKY: That is impossible. Yes, it reminds me of the bank robbers in North Hollywood. They had what do you call, the gear on? The armor, the

body armor, every inch of their body. I wonder if he had some of that stuff too.

BARNETT: Geez.

GOETZ: Well, they are saying they are police and military training. So, you know?

PINSKY: It is funny. This country are the rich history of the people having been in the military becoming bank robbers, back in the 19th

century.

CATHERWOOD: Do banks have cash? No, it is not. It is like you get away with money?

BARNETT: Like that big old vault where you have to return it. I do not think so, not any more.

PINSKY: Next up, I have another escalator tragedy. This one claimed a limb. Thankfully, the man survived. We are back after this.

(MUSIC PLAYING)

[21:54:48] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PINSKY: All right. Warning here. It is another graphic video. A terrible escalator accident in China. Third case in a week. A janitor at

the top of an escalator when a metal panel again gives way. Left leg became trapped in the hole. It is just unbelievable.

CATHERWOOD: Oh my God.

PINSKY: Firefighters were able to free him, but they were not able unfortunately to save his foot. They had to amputate that. State news

reports the man violated safety rules. I like the way the state blames him, by not shutting down the escalator before and during the cleaning.

Things could be worse. We could be in China, where the government saying everything happens. This is our fault. We should have followed policy.

It is just craziness. All right. Reminder, we are on Snap Chat. You can you join us there. It is DrDrewHLN. That is the newest -- What is the

part of Snap Chat? What are the stories?

DVR, then you can watch us any time. You can see Mike and me and listen us on KABC and hear more of Mike`s nonsense, there at 790 AM at Los Angeles.

Thank you all for watching. Thank you panel. Great job. We will see you next time.

[22:00:00] (MUSIC PLAYING)

END