Return to Transcripts main page

CNN NEWSROOM

President Barack Obama Is In Keya; GOP Presidential Hopeful Ted Cruz Calles Senate Leader Mitch McConnell A Liar; "The Des Moines Register" Is Not Welcome In Donald Trump's Campaign Stop; Rep. Tim Murphy Proposes Bill To Help Families In Mental Health Crisis; New York's Mayor Bill de Blasio Not A Donald Trump Fan; Alice Bowman Is First Female Mission Operations Manager On NASA Mission; Kareem Abdul-Jabbar Writes Piece On Need For Our Country To Rethink Ideals Of Feminine Beauty. Aired 3-4p ET

Aired July 25, 2015 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:00:23] POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: Hi, everyone. 3:00 Eastern. 12:00 noon Pacific. So glad you're with us. I'm Poppy Harlow joining you live this Saturday from New York.

And we begin in Kenya, where President Obama's trip overseas today mostly accentuates the positive in the relationship between the United States and Kenya, exempt when it comes to a very big issue, gay rights.

On that issue, the two presidents sharply disagree and both made that very clear today. Kenya's president called gay rights in his country a "non-issue," even though homosexual behavior there is punishable by prison time. President Obama compared that to legalized racism and said Kenya's approach to gay rights is flat-out wrong.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: When you start treating people differently not because of any harm they're doing anybody, but because they're different, that's the path whereby freedoms begin to erode and bad things happen. And when a government gets in the habit of treating people differently, those habits can spread.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: Jim Acosta is live in Nairobi. Robyn Kriel is in Ethiopia. That is where the president is heading next.

Jim, let me begin with you. It was widely expected that President Obama would go there, if you will. He would address this. And we knew it was going to be controversial. What do you make of the words that he chose?

JIM ACOSTA, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Poppy, you're right. White House officials were warning us all week long that if the president were asked about this issue of gay rights and how gay rights are respected here in Africa, and particularly in Kenya, that he was not going to hold back and he did not hold back earlier today. And I think he used probably the starkest language a president could use. And this was despite the fact that he's enjoying what has seemed like a family reunion at times.

But the president at one point during these remarks at this press conference earlier today with the Kenyan president, Uhuru Kenyatta, he compared gay rights in Kenya and the status of gay rights in Kenya to essentially what was going on before the civil rights acts of the 1960s. He compared it to the Jim Crow laws and days of segregation and slavery in the United States. That was very tough talk, and the president Kenyatta did not take too kindly to those words. He essentially said, you know what? This is a non-issue for us, and he went on to say that issues lick this should not be forced upon people who don't agree with it. At one point saying the culture in Kenya is just not in the same place as the United States.

But, Poppy, you know, we should not be surprised if the president brought this up. After all, just in the last few weeks, they lit up the White House in rainbow colors in celebration of that Supreme Court decision on same-sex marriage. So not a surprise. But the way the president handled it I think was a surprise.

HARLOW: All right.

And to you, Robyn, I mean, Jim brought up the cultural differences between the two countries and that is important, right? Everything in context. But you're South African. Explain the cultural differences between Kenya and this president and the United States on this issue right now.

ROBYN KRIEL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, yes. I think it varies from country to country in Africa. You mentioned that I'm South African and in fact South Africa had the rights to gay marriage far before the United States did. It's not an un-African idea to have the right for gay people to be able to marry. However, in Kenya, there are a number of groups, gay men and women, who meet regularly. In fact, we spent time with this group before heading to Ethiopia. They told us that they do face discrimination.

But there is still quite a large and vibrant gay community in Kenya. In fact, it's seen as almost a haven in the region, Poppy, where in Uganda they are discriminated against quite significantly. And many people, they call them gay refugees, come across the borders to Kenya where they can live more freely, they say, and have a normal life as opposed to living in Syria and Uganda.

However, Poppy, indeed, there are several people on the streets of Nairobi, if you speaks to them and ask them what they think about gay marriage, or gays in general, they tell you that they don't want to, they didn't want President Obama to speak of it. So it is a divide, and it is indeed somewhere different to the United States at this point in terms of legalizing it.

HARLOW: I know some people are looking at Nairobi, right, the capital, as sort of the equivalent to New York city in leading the way, if you will, within the country in terms of gay rights, feeling more comfortable there for a lot of young gay people, than maybe at their home villages, if you will.

I do want to switch gears and talk about security, though, there. Because Jim, this weekend, the president becomes the first ever sitting U.S. president to set foot in Ethiopia. This is one of the places where we see a strong presence of the militant group al- Shabaab. U.S. troops have been expanding their military operations there. What message does it send to have the president go there personally?

[15:05:22] ACOSTA: Well, the White House thinks it sends a huge message and the president has not held back in terms of saying he is the first U.S. president to visit Kenya. First U.S. president to visit Ethiopia. But this was a big topic of conversation for President Obama and President Kenyatta earlier today.

The president said they are going to be boosting their security operation in going after al-Shabaab. Al-Shabaab has not only been a problem in Ethiopia, it has been a major problem, of course, here in Kenya, carrying out attacks not only in Nairobi, but in other parts of the country. And the president said earlier today they have rolled back some of the gains. He even said they shrunk the territory that is controlled by al-Shabaab, but he said that has not stopped this problem.

And at the same time, Poppy, President Kenyatta described the fight against al-Shabaab as a quote "existential fight." So this is something they feel very acutely here. But I can tell you from a security standpoint and keeping the president safe standpoint, it is amazing to see the streets of Nairobi as empty as they are right now. These streets behind me are very quiet. I've been told it's just not how it usually is here in Nairobi. It's because of the massive security infrastructure that's been put in place. My guess is you'll see the same thing in Ethiopia.

HARLOW: Robyn, in terms of the direction of the whole of these Africans in terms of security, trade cooperation, when we look at all of these things, what is the next president going to have to deal with, in terms of what sort of ground work is President Obama setting for future relationships with east Africa?

KRIEL: We spoke to a government official, Poppy, yesterday in fact. And one of the key things he said is he wasn't looking for handouts from the United States. He wasn't looking necessarily for financing or future training and equipping, although that is great and they do want to see more of that in terms of especially in the fight against extremism and counterterrorism. Ethiopia one of the leaders of that fight. In fact, they do secure this country extremely well.

But what they're looking for is cooperation. And they need, they say, the United States to understand the realities on the ground here. To really be able to understand, see it through African eyes, understand that while it is a terrorist problem, and terrorism is a problem everywhere around the world, but this is a distinct group. It is al- Shabaab and it is a group that Ethiopia's been fighting basically since 2006 when they were the Islamic court's union. So if Ethiopia does have a historical ability, and quite (INAUDIBLE)

to hammer al-Shabaab as it were. In fact, at the moment, they are launching a huge operation in Southern Somalia, along with U.S. airstrikes. And they have seize several major towns just in the last few days.

HARLOW: All right, Jim Acosta in Kenya, Robyn Kriel in Ethiopia, where the president will make history tomorrow, being the first sitting U.S. president to visit Ethiopia. Thank you both.

I want to go to Washington now because major development. It is not every day that you hear one senator calling another essentially a liar, especially in that sacred chamber. That is exactly what happened, though.

GOP presidential hopeful Ted Cruz had words for Mitch McConnell yesterday, the most powerful man in the Senate.

CNN's Sunlen Serfaty joining me now from Washington. Take us through this.

SUNLEN SERFATY, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Poppy, Cruz is really mad at McConnell for procedural moves that he's making that Cruz says are dishonest of McConnell. Cruz claiming that McConnell promised him that he would not cut a deal and allow for a vote on something called the export-import re-authorization. McConnell appears to have pave the way to do just that. This is something that many conservatives are against. But less the mechanics of this and more the rhetoric, which is why it got so much attention. So unprecedented to hear someone really blast a fellow Republican, blast a fellow member of their own party. So rare, and actually might be in violation of Senate decorum rules. Here's a little bit more of Cruz's moment last night on the floor.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. TED CRUZ (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Today is a sad day for this institution. The Senate operates based on trust. Whether we are Democrats or Republicans, these hundred senators have to be able to trust that when a senator says something, he or she will do it. Even if we disagree on substance, that we don't lie to each other.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SERFATY: And all this comes as the Senate is preparing to hold a very rare Sunday session tomorrow, where Poppy, there could potentially be more fireworks -- Poppy.

HARLOW: Also, Hillary Clinton in the headlines again when it comes to Benghazi. Her camp saying look, she's going to willingly happy to testify. This is going to happen in October, I believe. But there's more to it now, a new development. What is that?

[15:10:06] SERFATY: Well, there is. We heard from the Clinton campaign earlier this morning that she will appear before the house and will testify in an open hearing on Benghazi. And they said the date is set for October 22nd. But we heard a little pushback from the committee, saying no date has been set in stone yet. They're still working with the Clinton campaign. They want to make sure that the terms are agreed to by the Clinton campaign. And that really there's all options on the table.

Of course, Clinton's role in Benghazi when she was secretary of state has cast a shadow over her and continued to dog her throughout the campaign. Looking towards a fall date whether it's October 22nd or another date. This is going to come, Poppy, right in the middle, heading up to the Iowa caucus and we head to a primary, so certainly not the time where Clinton's campaign wants this attention to be focused on her role in Benghazi --Poppy.

HARLOW: So what is that committee saying? Are they saying that, you know, her camp isn't fully cooperating in totally unlimited questioning? What are they saying, other than the timing, which is not a huge issue?

SERFATY: Well, it appears something will get worked out. It just hasn't yet. The committee is saying that the date has not been set and that they continued to work with the Clinton lawyers. They want to make sure that everything is sorted out ahead of time. But this, Poppy, follows a long, drawn out process of negotiation. The how and the when was always the big question that these two kept battling become and forth with.

At first, the chairman Gouty, he wanted Clinton to kind of do a two- tiered testimony. He wanted her to testify in private, and then hold a public testimony. Clinton said no, I'm going to come once and it's going to be in public. So it seems that these sort of big obstacles still remain. But clearly, the Clinton campaign wanting to push forward with that October date.

HARLOW: All right. Sunlen Serfaty in Washington, thank you as always.

Coming up next, Donald Trump in the headlines yet again today. You're looking at live pictures of him speaking there in Iowa on the stump, but the state's biggest newspapers, "the Des Moines register," banned by the campaign today. We'll explain next. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:15:32] HARLOW: All right. Today Donald Trump taking his campaign to Iowa, home of the first in the nation presidential caucus. This is in a high school in Oskaloosa, Iowa where he's speak right now.

Interesting development in the last 24 hours though. "The Des Moines Register" not welcome. Not invited. Trump's camp barring "the Des Moines Register" from the event after they published an editorial calling him to drop out of the race.

However, just seeing a tweet here from the head political reporter at "the Des Moines Register," Jennifer Jacobs. And let me read it to you. Des Moines register's Henry Hawn in Maine auditorium covering event for us. I'm in overflow. Trump staff polite. Trump silent when he saw me. So it does look like "the Des Moines Register" does have a reporter there in the room. I want to listen in to Donald Trump's remarks for a little bit. We'll talk about with MJ Lee on the other side.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: They have to respect those people and they have to respect that message because it's a big message. You see that. When the economist has me at 28, 28 percent, and don't forget that's 28 percent and we have 16 people. So we have 28 percent out of 16 people. Somebody said well, 28 is -- well, when you have 16 people running and one of those people is at 28 percent, that's a very good poll. That's a great magazine and a very respected one. And that poll is very high level poll. So when you're at 28 and you see that and with all of those people running, that's a big movement.

Go ahead. Next question. Next question. Go ahead. Go ahead.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: With Russian aggression especially in the Ukraine.

TRUMP: True, it's a real problem.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: They put so much money --

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: All right, Donald Trump there taking questions. I want to bring in CNN's M.J. Lee, our political reporter at the event.

M.J., so I don't know if you heard me at the beginning. "The Des Moines Register," one of their reporters is tweeting they actually do have a reporter now on the floor and that the Trump staff is being polite.

M.J. LEE, CNN POLITICS REPORTER: Right. I mean, I guess they were able to get in somehow. I know the campaign was doing media checks and making sure that all the reporters getting in were on the list. But look, this is a campaign that loves to get media coverage. They've been getting a lot of it over the last month. So maybe they decided that, you know, having the Iowa -- the biggest paper in Iowa to not be here would be a mistake.

I think it is interesting to point out, though, that this is a pretty unusual move for a presidential campaign to make to ban a publication because its editorial board wrote something critical. And I think it sets an interesting precedent going forward. A lot of candidates get very critical things written about them. To going forward, will Donald Trump decide that this is something he wants to do with everyone that writes something critical about him? I mean, that's going to be a tough game for him to play with the media.

HARLOW: Yes. It is a tough thing. Especially when you're looking at sort of the numbers here. We heard also looking at the polls, and I think it is important we are going to get new polling out about Trump tomorrow morning. But if you look at these polls, what you have is the Quinnipiac University poll there, and you also have "the Washington Post"/ABC poll, where Trump was coming in number one.

Now, those don't fully include his comments about McCain last weekend and his military service. But what do we think we should be expecting tomorrow?

LEE: Well, it's interesting, he actually talked about the poll numbers in his speech earlier. He loves to talk about the fact that he has been a leading and has been number one in some of the national polls, but a recent Quinnipiac Poll had him trailing Scott Walker in this state of Iowa in second place. So he used that as an opportunity to ask the audience in sort of a playful way, please help me be number one so I don't feel bad.

It was also interesting that he took this opportunity to sort of go after Scott Walker. Obviously, there was the news earlier this week of a Scott Walker fundraiser, referring to Donald Trump as a dumb- dumb. Trump clearly was not happy about that and he said to the audience and it drew some laughter, he said thank God, now I have an excuse to go after Scott Walker.

HARLOW: He also talked about Hillary Clinton, right out of the gate there. He talked about Hillary Clinton. And he mentioned she's going to be testifying about Benghazi, as we just spoke about. Talk to us a little bit more about that as he brings up Hillary Clinton, and if he thinks that that is good for him.

[15:20:09] LEE: Sure, I think any opportunity for any of the Republican candidates to go after Hillary, I think they will want to seize on it. And we saw him do that at the very beginning of his speech. But I think it's worth noting too that, you know, Donald Trump is someone who used to be a registered Democrat. He has donated to Clinton's campaign. So the relationship there is a little bit complicated.

Now, Trump obviously has talked about this as, you know, having been a businessman, he's not beholden to anyone. He has supported Democrats and Republicans in the past. But I do think that going forward, if the Hillary Clinton, you know, email problem does get bigger and bigger, like any of the Republican candidates, Donald Trump will want to seize on that.

HARLOW: Right. M.J. Lee live for us in Iowa as Donald Trump continues to take questions in this press conference. We'll be monitoring it.

We're going to take a quick break. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:24:44] HARLOW: New details surfacing today in that horrific theater shooting in Louisiana. Funeral services will take place Monday to celebrate the life of Mayci Breaux, the 21-year-old college student who was one of two people killed in that deadly rampage. Her boyfriend was also one of the nine people wounded. Five of those victims are still recovering in the hospital. One in critical condition. And we're learning more now about the troubled shooting suspect, John Russell Houser.

Court documents show he had a history of quote "extreme erratic behavior." We also know that he flew a swastika outside of his tavern in Georgia after losing his liquor license. As for the handgun that he used in the attack, it was a .40 caliber semiautomatic pistol that he purchased legally from a pawnshop.

CNN's Ryan Nobles is joining us now from Lafayette.

You know, it's so troubling, because frankly in the wake of these mass shootings, so often the attention goes to the troubled, mentally ill shooter and not enough of it goes to the lives that were lost and those who are still in the hospital. What do we know about the victim's condition at this time?

RYAN NOBLES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Poppy. Just in the last hour or so, we've got some new information about the victims that have been hospitalized. Of course, there were nine people total that were wounded, in addition to the two people that were killed. And there was one patient in particular that authorities were very concerned about. That person was in critical condition. The good news today is that that patient has been moved out of the ICU and is listed as in good condition.

There is one other patient at Lafayette general hospital, also in good condition. But they were able to release another one of their patients earlier this morning. So that's some positive news about the progress of the victims in this case.

I want to talk to you about the investigation itself here in Lafayette. We actually got a pretty up close view of what happened here at the theater behind me. It's not open yet to the public, but we were able to talk to you as a public information officer who showed us the exact door that the shooter attempted to escape from. Listen to what Paul Moulton told me about what happened when Houser tried to leave the theater.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CORPORAL PAUL MOULTON, LAFAYETTE, LOUISIANA POLICE DEPARTMENT: He existed out of this door right here, which was the auditorium to where we had about 30 people who had bought tickets for that showing. As he exited, based off a witness' accounts and information that we see from officer, it is our belief that based off of the response of our officers, he then reloaded and reentered the building and did not leave through his vehicle which was feet away in the parking lot.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NOBLES: So at this point, they're going to keep the theater closed. It's going to remain a crime scene, not necessarily because they're still investigating here on the premises, but in case they have a question that comes up as they comb through all the evidence that they've collected. And Poppy, they've taken in hundreds, as how they describe it, of pieces of evidence from this theater. This may not be handed back over to its owners until Monday at the earliest, but that still is tentative. There's a lot of questions that still need to be answered here in Lafayette - Poppy.

HARLOW: Absolutely. It is astonishing to think, three years ago to the week, it was the Aurora movie theater massacre, killing 12 people.

Thank you very much. Ryan Nobles joining us there from Lafayette.

In the aftermath of this shooting, the nation's attention once again turns to mental illness. Joining me next, a congressman who is also a psychiatrist. He is proposing an overhaul of how we should address mental health in this country. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:31:22] HARLOW: In the aftermath of the deadly shooting this week in Louisiana, the nation's attention once again on the subject of mental illness.

Congressman Tim Murphy is a psychologist. He is also proposing an overhaul of how we as a nation address mental health and how families can help their loved ones who are dealing with mental health issues. The bill that he's proposing is called helping families in mental health crisis as he tweeted this. Following the movie theater shooting quote "preliminary reports Lafayette shooting linked to history of mental illness. How many lives lost before we take action?"

Thank you for being with me, sir.

REP. TIM MURPHY (R), PENNSYLVANIA: Thank you.

HARLOW: All right. Let's go through this. If a family knows their loved one has a mental health problem, what does your bill change?

MURPHY: Well, it allows families to get more involved. Right now, there's such things as privacy laws which prevents families of the severely mentally ill from knowing anything at all. It also helps in cases where someone has a history of violence and hospitalization, where we encourage states to use something they call assisted outpatient treatment. Many states have this on the books like Louisiana, but they don't necessarily use it. Where a judge can meet with someone on a weekly basis or some period and make sure they stay on medication, they stay in treatment and they monitor them. In a case such as this, where you have someone who did have a history of violence, had been involuntarily committed, we don't really know what kind of monitoring was done afterwards, but that's the very thing we need with people who have history of violence and severe mental illness.

HARLOW: There's a little bit of resistance to this from those that say due to the privacy, the HIPPA laws, right, that you just mentioned, some critics say it would force someone to get treatment against their will. How do you address those critics, right, and sort of walk that line with personal responsibility, personal privacy?

MURPHY: Sure. Well, we're talking about a very small percentage of people. We're not going to go back to the days of the asylums where people are put away in large numbers. We don't want that. But we recognize that when we're talking about the rights of a patient, I like to emphasize their right to be treated, their right to be well. And what happens is while we've emptied our asylums and psychiatric hospitals and reduced the number of beds, (INAUDIBLE) we haven't gotten rid of those people. We just made them homeless. We put them in prisons. We put them in an emergency rooms and now we have a suicide rate of some 40,000.

And while we are talking about rights, what about the rights of those two young women that movie theater who are dead? What about the children of Sandy Hook elementary school who are dead? They have rights too. And we ought to be paying attention to them.

HARLOW: You, sir, have an A rating from the NRA. And I wonder if you could speak about whether you think there need to be any changes in gun laws in this country, specifically the fact that this shooter was able to, it has become clear, legally purchase this firearm at a pawnshop despite not only a history of mental illness. He was institutionalized. His wife at the time had put a restraining order against him, saying she was so concerned about safety in the household, that she had removed all guns from the house. Does that also need to be addressed? Do some things need to change on that front?

MURPHY: Well, many states actually have a law that says if you have an involuntary psychiatric commitment, and you cannot purchase a gun. You have to look what it was in those states where is he frequented. And also if you have a history of violence, you also can't purchase a gun. Those are issues that states should review and look at. But the point, it still doesn't address the issue are we helping people with what's in their minds and not just paying attention or whatsoever.

HARLOW: But what does that mean states should review and address, right? Because this is someone who had documented issues with violence, who was institutionalized, who legally bought a gun?

MURPHY: Well, I know in Pennsylvania where I from, you're not allowed to have a gun if you have had an involuntary psychiatric hospitalization. We need to look and see in his case what that was and what the laws were, and what the laws are in Louisiana with regard to that. Most states have that, most states have a situation where a psychiatrist, psychologist can make a determination a person is dangerous.

What you need to dig into in in case is how severe was he? What was his diagnosis? Did they even review it? Because what happens is we don't have enough psychiatric hospitals, so hospitals are quick to just dump a person back on the street, not have a treatment plan, not pay attention to that, and so therefore, none of that is put in the record.

And another thing is many times, states will have records, but they will not release it. There was a couple years ago, we had two and a half million records of those with severe mental illness that was never put into the database. So they could still purchase a gun because that data never got there. And state need to make sure that we are releasing that data.

[15:35:53] HARLOW: Yes. So much to unpack here, so much more to talk about. Please come on and join me again, sir. Thank you very much.

MURPHY: Be glad to. Take care.

HARLOW: Well, New York's Mayor Bill de Blasio not a fan of Donald Trump, especially lately. We're going to tell you what he sat down and told our Carol Costello about Trump and New York City.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:39:54] HARLOW: All Right. We've been monitoring the news conference that Donald Trump was holding in Iowa today. It just ended a few moments ago. But before that, he talked about the upcoming Republican debate. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: So they have the debates coming up. I'm by far number one. So I'm going to be there, much to the chagrin of many people. But I'm not a debater. I produce jobs. I never stood at a podium and debated a large number of people. And from what I heard, every one of them is going to come at me.

I watch the shows like you do. Hit Trump. I'm saying, what is this, for two hours I'm going to be like in the lion's den, right? But I don't do that for a living. I built a great company. I've had tremendous success. I've gone to the best school, like I was good at everything I've done.

But again, I'm standing at a podium, and I hear everybody saying how good I'm going to be in the debates. I don't know if I'm going to be good. I don't know. I have never done it before. Politicians do it every night. But they don't produce jobs. They don't do a lot of things. But, you know, I look forward to the debates. But I've never done it before. It's a totally unique experience. I see where they say well, Jeb Bush hasn't been on the stage in eight years. Well, I haven't been on the stage my whole life. Nobody ever says that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: New York City mayor Bill de Blasio says he is determined to cut this city's business ties with Trump. Our Carol Costello sat down with the mayor for a wide-ranging interview and they talked about Trump and his controversial remarks and his connections to New York City. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MAYOR BILL DE BLASIO (D), NEW YORK: I don't think he represents the values of New York City. You know, he's from here, but he doesn't represent our values because this is the ultimate city of immigrants and a place that believes in including every kind of people in our society.

CAROL COSTELLO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: But he says he loves Hispanics. He says thousands of who work for him.

DE BLASIO: Yes. I mean, obviously, his comments about Mexican- Americans were derogatory and inappropriate. And there's been moral outrage all over the country about them. So I would simply say he's gone very far from his roots here because this is a city where we would never tolerate that kind of language.

COSTELLO: Will you do business with Donald Trump in the future?

DE BLASIO: Not if I can help it. Look, I think he has set a very negative tone. And that's even before what he said about senator McCain. And you don't have to agree with senator McCain politically to think that was outrageous and inappropriate. I think Donald Trump has invalidated himself as a public figure. We will not seek out business with him and his companies. You know, we will certainly look for other options. I hope there's no --

COSTELLO: So I know that your office is reviewing contracts to see if you can get out of them. Is that review complete?

DE BLASIO: It's not quite complete. I don't think there is a construct to get out of those contracts, but we'll certainly look for every option.

COSTELLO: Why do you think so many people are attracted to Donald Trump? What is it about him?

DE BLASIO: Well, I would differentiate him from some of the things he's saying. I think there is a subset of the American people that are very frustrated about some of the reality we face, and unfortunately try to blame immigrants who are not the root of the problem. Many Americans are economically very, very frustrated. They have seen themselves and their families fall behind economically. They legitimately are looking for answers and looking for someone to blame.

Immigrants are not the problem. The problem is income inequality. The problem is a concentration of wealth and power in this country and the fact that too many of our government policies don't help working people. That's where energy should go. Unfortunately, someone like Trump tries to whip people up and blame the immigrants as the root of the problems. They are not the root of the problem.

COSTELLO: Well, he also blames politicians because he says, you know, I have enough money to do things. Nobody can buy me. I'm worth $10 billion. Everybody should be grateful because I'm an independent person and I'll do what I want. I'm not controlled by the lobbyists and a lot of people really like when he says stuff like that.

DE BLASIO: I don't know how many. I'm sure some people find that appealing. I think giving more power to an extraordinarily wealthy person would take us backwards.

COSTELLO: Even though he says his wealth gives him independence.

DE BLASIO: His wealth gives him a perspective to continue policies that have failed for the American people. Let's face it. I mean, he's the ultimate example of trickledown economics, right? He believes that someone like him having a lot of wealth is the best thing for the economy in general. Well, the reverse is true. We've seen wealth concentrated in fewer and fewer hands. And it had a negative impact on how many people were employed and what kind of wages they have. We, who believe in a more progressive option, have to make clear that folks like Trump are just going to take a bad situation and make it worse.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HARLOW: All right. You can see much more of Carol's interview with Bill de Blasio. It is fascinating. Just go to Carol Costello's Facebook page. Also, we will be live in Iowa at the top of the hour with our reporter on the ground who was at that entire Trump event today.

Coming up next, NASA's mission to Pluto historic, for not only what happened in space, but also for who was on the ground running the mission. The role of some pretty stellar women coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:48:00] HARLOW: Now to Pluto. The planet that is captivating so many of us this month, as the focus of an out of this world billion- mile mission.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: SSR pointers are where we expect them to be which means we recorded the expected amount of data.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Copy that. Looks like we have a good data report.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: You see that awesome woman? That is Alice Bowman, the mission operations center manager during the new horizon's mission. She is the first female mission operations manager on a NASA mission. She's on a team that included the largest group of women scientists in NASA's history. They made it possible for all of us to see those amazing images of Pluto. We will pull some of those up for you so you can see them as we speak with Alice. Thank you for being here.

ALICE BOWMAN, MISSION OPERATIONS MANAGER, NASA: Hi. Nice to be here.

HARLOW: You know, I think it's very fitting, your title is known as "mom", by the way -- missions operations manager. Just a little fitting title for all the hats that you wore in this.

Twenty five percent of your team on this mission are women. And isn't 50 percent, but it's a whole lot better than things have been in the past. And this was in part intentional by some of the folks there at NASA. Why did you do this and how did you pull it off in terms of really making sure you hired the best, but also keeping an eye on having more equality, frankly?

BOWMAN: Yes. So our mission PI, Alan Stern, did set out to make sure that women were equally represented. And that number, 25 percent of women on this NASA mission; that is across the whole board, the scientists, engineers.

I manage the mission operations team, and actually, the percentage of women on the mission operations team is very close to 50 percent. So I think if you look at things individually, you might find that that number varies a little. But it's just wonderful.

[15:50:00] HARLOW: It is wonderful. And I know that you grew up with a sense of wonderment and love of space, watching the Apollo missions. When you look at how science has progressed, how space exploration has progressed in terms of getting even more young women interested, how do we keep that moving forward?

BOWMAN: I think we just keep it moving forward just like this, the new horizons mission to Pluto. Get more of these missions that inspire young people to strive for something that is maybe not a normal career path.

HARLOW: You know, it only takes usually one person to encourage someone to take a risk, to follow their dreams. I'm interested in who that person was for you as a young woman, as a girl, interested in space and science.

BOWMAN: Well, first off, it's my mom. She never -- she always told me that I could do and be whatever I wanted. And so for me, there were no limitations on what career path I chose. And then when I got into school, you know, the wonders of science, that just intrigued me so I had a number of teachers that influenced my path as well.

HARLOW: Alice Bowman, we are lucky as a society to have you and so many women like you. I'm reminded of Margaret Hamilton, a name not enough people know, but a woman who wrote a lot of the code on the Apollo 11 mission and whose work prevented the abortion of that moon landing. So she led the way. You are leading the way. More power to you. Thanks for being with me.

BOWMAN: Thank you very much.

HARLOW: All right. Still coming up, I'm joined by an absolute NBA legend. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. We are going to talk about what he wrote his latest op-ed about in "Time" magazine. Speaking about body shaming of female athletes next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:55:15] HARLOW: An American sports legend is speaking out about the need for this country to rethink its idea of feminine beauty. In a new op-ed column in "Time" magazine, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, the all- time NBA leading scorer, says Serena Williams who won her 21st grand slam title at Wimbledon this month is just one of many black female athletes who experience body shaming. The tennis star subjected to rude comments online about how muscular she is. There was even this article in 'the New York Times" this summer. It read in part quote "Williams has large biceps and mole-breaking muscular frame which packs the power and athleticism that have dominated women's tennis for years. Her rivals could try to emulate our physique but most choose not to."

So, is this an issue that's part of racism or is it more about pressure to fit into this crazy ideal what have beauty is? Let's talk about it with the man, himself, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar with me.

I was so struck, so moved when I read this. And I'm so glad you could come talk to us about it. None of us feels perfect and we don't have to but we also don't need to feel shame. And you say in your op-ed, body shaming is definitely a racist rejection of black women's bodies.

KAREEM ABDUL-JABBAR, FORMER NBA PLAYER: Sure. I think it's a combination of racism and Chauvinism (ph) because most men want women to be the vulnerable, weak sex that needs male protection and, you know, who needs a man to be fulfilled. And Venus and Serena Williams, they don't fit into that picture at all. And you know, there are other people, the young lady who just got the opportunity --

HARLOW: The first African-American prima ballerina at the American Ballet Theater, who was, as you note in your op-ed, she - I mean, look at her stunning and amazingly talented. She was rejected at age 13 from a ballet academy because of her body type.

ABDUL-JABBAR: They said she was too muscular and her feet weren't right and her Achilles tendon wasn't right and her bust wasn't the right size. It's totally ridiculous. The good Lord made a lot of different types of bodies. And we have to learn how to appreciate the athletic ability and performance ability of women of all types.

HARLOW: But you say we need to learn.

ABDUL-JABBAR: Yes, we do.

HARLOW: What actually needs to be done? What actually needs to change? Because you moved the needle with what you write, but it's a lot about advertisers, sponsors, just how people talk about others.

ABDUL-JABBAR: I think it's just that everybody expects a woman to be someone who is unable to compete in the area of athletic ability. They are lesser athletically. And you know, the real sisters have proved that wrong. They have dominated their sport. They work hard to stay in shape to be able to do that just like any male athlete, but they are not recognized in that fashion.

HARLOW: I'm interested why you wrote this. Do you have daughters, women very close to you that have experienced this? Why did you write it and why now?

ABDUL-JABBAR: I wrote it because it's something I have seen that just keeps getting worse. You know, as more women become prominent athletes, there's more criticism and there is more attempts at trying to force them into this little box where they have to be coquettish tiny little things that need male assistance to have lives. HARLOW: Interesting, Sheryl Sandberg, COO of Facebook and author

"Lean In," talks about how young girls are often called bossy and how that also formed sort of that narrative in your mind that being authoritative is something wrong. What would you like to see going forward change the most? And I'm interested if you heard from the Williams sisters at all.

ABDUL-JABBAR: I haven't heard from the Williams sisters. But I think going forward I think when we should encourage our female athletes to be the best that they can be and that will include being muscular and agile, you know. That is -- those are benefits in sports competition. So I think that all of our female athletes should be encouraged to develop themselves in those areas as much as they can.

HARLOW: Let's leave you with this quote from the op-ed that really stood out to us. Let's pull it up here. This reluctance to push themselves physically because they reduce their marketability as women results in some women athletes never striving to be fully realized athletes that they could be. The same mentality of holding back to fit the social mold of a lady makes women less competitive in the job marketplace as well.

Thank you so much for being with me, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar.

ABDUL-JABBAR: It was my pleasure.

HARLOW: I'm glad you are talking about this.

ABDUL-JABBAR: Well, thank you.

HARLOW: Thank you.