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Iranian Nuclear Negotiations; Trump Under Fire; Manhunt in Mexico. Aired 3-3:30p ET

Aired July 13, 2015 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[15:00:02]

ALEXANDRA FIELD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Authorities finally moved in after he received four firearms from somebody who was cooperating with the Western Massachusetts Joint Terrorism Task Force.

After the arrest, they did a search. At that time, they found that he also had parts of Molotov cocktails in his apartment. And they say he had purchased a pressure cooker. Authorities say that the plan was to use these improvised explosive devices to launch an attack, targeting perhaps college dormitories or cafeterias.

Once he was taken into custody, Pamela, he also took a pen, we're told, and stabbed a nurse in the head, leaving a puncture wound behind. This might speak to be mental illness, of course, that sources close to the investigation are saying he suffered from.

PAMELA BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: So I want to ask you, on that note, Buck, I mean, does this sound like someone who is deranged, who is just this is someone who clearly could be dangerous, but just has a mental illness, or someone who is really intent on acting on behalf of ISIS? Is there really -- do we have to create that difference?

BUCK SEXTON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Being a jihadist and psychopath often goes hand in hand actually.

(CROSSTALK)

SEXTON: What we see time and again are people that have a propensity toward violence to begin with and have mental illness on top of that, they will also be more susceptible to the kind of clarion call that the Islamic State has put out to do exactly this.

This follows a pretty familiar pattern of how this radicalization process tends to happen. This individual, most likely online, got in touch with some ISIS recruiters or just saw ISIS propaganda and over the course of time decide to go from just a radicalized mind-set to actually jihadization, the decision to engage in an attack.

Some of the additional steps here, which, by the way, seem to be sort of mimicry of other attacks, the idea of using a pressure cooker, that's from the Boston Marathon bombing, the idea that he bought the firearms. Or not the idea. He actually did take that operational step, which is where the criminal indictment comes in, because that's clearly illegal even without intending to engage in a terrorist act the way he bought these guns.

(CROSSTALK)

SEXTON: But that hearkens to Tunisia just a couple weeks ago when you had dozens of people killed on a beach. And the idea also that he would attack a school, that is nothing new. Jihadists have been doing this for years. Some of the worst attacks in history, including the Beslan school massacre, were exactly that, attacks on schools.

In Nigeria, there have been massive attacks on universities. So he's pulling from different attacks, it would seem, in this ideology or in his attack planning and it seems that JTTF got involved here just in time to prevent violence from actually occurring.

BROWN: Right. And this was on the Fourth of July he was arrested, right?

Alexandra, is there any indication this was one of the plots that the FBI said it thwarted on the Fourth of July?

FIELD: The FBI has not said that. You bring up an important point, obviously, because we did have that plot that was thwarted.

There does seem to be at least the coincidence here at the very least that the weapons were delivered on the Fourth of July. But this is somebody they had been watching for a significant period of time. Acquaintances had told authorities that he had become obsessed with Islam, in their words, obviously a very different kind of interpretation here of what he felt that Islam was, but speaking a great deal about his interest in martyrdom and speaking in fact to those who are cooperating with authorities about this plan that he was hatching and forming over the course of a period of time, it seemed.

BROWN: And talked about this plan, clearly it included firearms.

Buck, I think what this does is reflect the concern among law enforcement officials in the U.S. that anyone can sort of pick up a firearm and go out and do what could be seen as an unsophisticated attack on soft targets. In this case, apparently he wanted to attack school cafeterias.

SEXTON: Well, yes, he was trying to purchase firearms illegally. And there is always going to be a possibility.

We have seen this in France, we have seen this in Tunisia, of people getting guns illegally and using them in a context that is obviously part of a terrorist attack. But I think it's important also to note here that the speed with which the FBI moved in, in a lot of cases they will have individuals under surveillance and they might not necessarily want to bring an indictment right away.

It really depends on how far along in the process they are. They may have accelerated some of these arrests because of the chatter around the Fourth of July. Essentially, you have individuals who are sort of on the edge, who have talked about their willingness to engage in jihad, it looks like they're going to do it, but they haven't necessarily taken an operational step. Buying the firearms in this case is clearly an operational step, as would be having Molotov cocktails in your house.

But it seems there might have been a decision to go forth with some of these arrests because of the Fourth of July chatter. Essentially, individuals who were saying I want to engage in jihad will say Fourth of July would be a good time, which may be why you have seen sort of an accelerated move by the FBI to try to stop some of those plots.

BROWN: And we're definitely seeing that. I think this might make the 50th ISIS-related arrest since the beginning of the year.

I think it's around that number. But I just had a meeting with Director Comey from the FBI. He met with several reporters, and he talked about now the time between flash to bang has just severely decompressed. So they don't have the luxury of sitting and waiting for someone to --

SEXTON: The FBI and the JTTF have done a very good job so far.

We have not had in recent months -- we haven't had really a mass casualty ISIS-inspired attack on U.S. soil. We have obviously had al Qaeda mass casualty attacks on U.S. soil. But at some point, just based on the numbers, someone will get through. They are not able to catch all these people in the digital dragnet they have.

We're essentially just in a wait and see until eventually someone does something pretty terrible. Hopefully, the FBI gets all of them. Statistically, it's very improbable.

BROWN: Yes, absolutely.

Alexandra Field, thank you so much for your reporting. Incredible that this is the son of a Boston police captain. Unbelievable.

[15:05:05]

FIELD: And, of course, we have to factor in the fact, though, however, that people are saying this is somebody who had suffered from mental illness. But as you point out, police felt they needed to move in the day that those firearms were delivered. Then it gave them the opportunity to go inside the apartment to see what other sort of improvised devices he was trying to craft before those weapons had arrived at his doorstep.

BROWN: Right. And as we have seen in other similar cases, people with mental illness -- the hatchet guy in New York, he had suffered from mental illness, went out and attacked police with a hatchet. So it's a dangerous time we live in. I think it's safe to say that.

Thank you very much. Appreciate it.

And back to our breaking sorry. A killer kingpin whose cartel has drug runners operating right here in the U.S. is now on the loose. A manhunt happening right now for this man, El Chapo. Take a look right here, a drug lord who has now escaped from a Mexican prison not once, but twice.

The U.S. furious after Mexican officials promised El Chapo wouldn't be able to bribe his way out of prison again. But now 18 prison officials are being questioned over this elaborate escape that allowed El Chapo to squeeze his way through a hole, very small hole we're going to show you, and into an air conditioned and fully lit tunnel below the prison.

And it was deep underground that he may have been met by a motorbike on rails allowing him to travel from the prison to an abandoned house one mile away. And now some experts are saying if this violent killer isn't caught in the next 24 hours, he's gone for good.

I want to bring in Duncan Wood, director of the Mexico Institute at the Wilson Center, and Ioan Grillo, also author of "El Narco: Inside Mexico's Criminal Insurgency."

First to you, Duncan. The details of this escape show that this is a long set plan. This isn't something that just came together overnight and likely involved a number of individuals, likely in the prison itself. Talk to me about the power that he must have held while incarcerated and what it took to get him out, Duncan.

DUNCAN WOOD, WILSON CENTER: Yes, it's a very good question.

When you think about the Sinaloa Cartel, the organization that he runs, it's a very sophisticated organization. It's a multibillion- dollar business that extend across national borders, not just between Mexico and the United States, but throughout South America the across world.

This is an organization that is very well equipped to organize this kind of escape. Now, when you think about the resources that they put in place here, somewhere between $3 million and $5 million in place to build this tunnel, you think about the planning capacity, think about those other escape plans that were already there and didn't work out beforehand, and then you being to think about the capacity of El Chapo himself and of his organization to bribe and to corrupt those within the prison system to make this possible,it's a very impressive achievement.

I would like to say that I was surprised by it. I'm shocked by it, but perhaps not surprised. I mean, this is a man who was able to not only run his drug empire from in prison, but also managed to make it grow the first time he was arrested.

BROWN: Ioan, so are you shocked by this?

IOAN GRILLO, AUTHOR, "EL NARCO: INSIDE MEXICO'S CRIMINAL INSURGENCY": I am shocked.

And I have been here covering this for 15 years and seen many extraordinary and terrible things. I was still surprised. I thought that the Mexican government with the amount of political pressure internationally on this case would be able to hold him in prison. Now, many Mexican prisons I have been inside are extraordinary places.

You go inside and people have pool tables, disco sound systems. The guards are terrified of the inmates. But this prison was different. It was meant to be the supermax of Mexico, designed to hold the biggest drug traffickers, the biggest kidnappers.

And the fact that he's escaped from this prison really is a blow to the Mexican state, the Mexican government apparatus showing it has not got the capacity to stand up against these criminals.

BROWN: Certainly a huge embarrassment for the Mexican government.

Ioan, given his networking power and elusive ability, how likely do you think that he will be recaptured?

GRILLO: Very difficult question, as always. We were asking beforehand, will Chapo be captured, in which year? Very hard to predict.

But you can say this. He has got an extremely powerful organization, very intact and many people who look after him and who will protect him. In the area that he comes from, he's seen as a Robin Hood figure, a hero. He is seen as offering some to young people, bringing money, resources, much more than the politicians or the businesses.

So they will protect him. And there's also still, I'm sad to say, many police officers who are on his payroll. And they're not just on the payroll turning a blind eye. Many police officers work full-time as assassins for the cartel. And all this makes it very difficult to really capture him and get him behind bars.

[15:10:00]

BROWN: Really disturbing, considering this is a man who has killed thousands of people. He's a dangerous man.

Duncan, when he was on the run last time, he was hiding out in a remarkable network of tunnels linking various safe houses. The entrances to those tunnels were concealed generally under bathtubs. But you say there is a chance he may change his patterns this time. Tell us about that.

WOOD: Yes, I think that what we are Libya to see is that he will sort of drop off the grid for a while. He's still going to be the guy this charge of the cartel, and, as I said, I doubt whether he ever lost control of that.

But if he wants to stay out of the hands of U.S. and Mexican intelligence, then he has to go off the grid for a while, which means he will have to retire to a mountain retreat somewhere or move around from mountain retreat to mountain retreat. It's very difficult to track somebody down in that kind of terrain up in Northwest Mexico.

And so his best chance of staying hidden at least in the short to medium term is to go up there. It's when he moves more into urban areas that the authorities have a better chance of tracking him. And that's what we saw last time. U.S. intelligence was able to track him down through triangulation using his phone's GPS and their human intelligence network once he moved to cities.

(CROSSTALK)

BROWN: Yes, absolutely. So the question is what will the cooperation be like this time around and if he is caught, will he then be extradited to the U.S.? That is something the U.S. wanted before and of course didn't happen.

Duncan Wood, Ioan Grillo, thank you very much.

WOOD: Thank you.

BROWN: Up next, the nuclear talks between Iran and the West hit a major snag after indications that a deal was close. Hear what the big disagreement is and why a deleted tweet is involved.

Plus, Donald Trump sticking to his controversial comments about undocumented immigrants from Mexico -- why that brought David Letterman out of retirement. And hear from one man who works to get Latino Republicans elect on what he thinks about Trump.

Plus, President Obama commuting the sentences of nearly 50 drug offenders in prisons across America. Hear why straight ahead. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:16:23]

BROWN: For a time today, it looked like the U.S. and other world powers were close to a nuclear deal with Iran, but now it appears there will be no deal until tomorrow at the very earliest.

Multiple sources involved in the talks say one of the last sticking points centers on the U.N. arms embargo against Iran. Iran wants any U.N. resolution coming out of the deal to lift that embargo, but the U.S. opposes that idea.

In fact, just last week, Joint Chiefs Chairman Martin Dempsey told Congress the embargo should not be lifted and the secretary of defense agreed.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. KELLY AYOTTE (R), NEW HAMPSHIRE: It doesn't sound like based on what you're saying, given their maligned activities in the region, that it would be a good idea to lift the arms embargo right now on what Iran receives. Would you agree with me?

ASHTON CARTER, U.S. DEFENSE SECRETARY: We want them to continue to be isolated as a military and limited in terms of the kind of equipment and material they're able to --

(END VIDEO CLIP) BROWN: CNN senior international correspondent Nic Robertson is in

Vienna for us.

Nic, these talks have been going on for, what, 21 months now. Could the arms embargo be a potential deal killer? Or do you think this is just one more obstacle to overcome here?

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: It's certainly a very tough obstacle.

Let's look at this way. Secretary Kerry just a few days ago threatened to walk away if the talks weren't going in the right direction. But what is happening now, this sort of next deadline that we're up against right now right now, the Iranians do appear to be calling his bluff by continuing to push on through this deadline.

And certainly for Secretary Kerry, that puts him in a difficult position because if he stays at the table, it creates the impression for his critics that he is therefore conceding territory. He's been very strong and robust in saying that isn't the case. But it creates the impression with his critics that that is possibly happening.

And this is something that the Iranians here can play on, and we certainly saw them play on this earlier when they realized there was this July 9/10 congressional deadline, if you will, to try to get a deal done before it rolled over to 60 days for Congress to review whatever deal was made here.

So the negotiating tactics that are being used here are really testing Secretary Kerry at the moment, this idea of the arms embargo. What happens at these talks after agreement they go to the U.N. Security Council for resolution that wraps up very quickly the sort of broad outlines of the agreement?

What Iran was looking for was language in that that would allow this arms embargo to be lifted. And they have support here in that from the Russians and from the Chinese. And these are partners here with Secretary Kerry. So, again, it makes his position a very, very tough one in these talks.

And Iran certainly is aware of that. So you can see how it's coming down to brinksmanship. And they continue to push and hold out for this particular issue. So could it finally be a deal breaker? If Secretary Kerry decides to do what he said last week and walk away, then it would seem to be that might be it -- Pamela.

BROWN: Wow, incredible.

I want to talk about this tweet that Iranian President Hassan Rouhani posted and then quickly deleted. Let's take a look at it.

It read: "Iran deal is the victory of diplomacy and mutual respect over the outdated paradigm of exclusion and coercion and this is a good beginning."

He then deleted that tweet, but what does that tell you about Iran's view of this deal?

ROBERTSON: Well, it means that the Iranians believe that the deal is close because he had that tweet ready to go and it was posted again shortly afterwards saying if there is a deal.

[15:20:03]

There were two things about this. One is the Iranians do continue to say that they believe that the United States is putting too much pressure on them. Pressure won't work, they said, hasn't worked in the past.

And the other part of this is to say that if there is a deal, then this is a victory for diplomacy and mural respect. This really puts pressure on the United States. Here is something to aspire to. This is a victory for all of us together, mutual respect. This is what the Iranians say they have been wanting.

And think this is again subtle psychological pressure if you will against the U.S. position right now. Again, all the tactics of brinksmanship, of bartering in the bazaar are coming in to play here, Pamela.

BROWN: It really is a game of chicken here.

Nic Robertson, thank you very much.

And up next, Donald Trump is getting David Letterman out of retirement. Hear Letterman's now top 10 list all about the billionaire candidate. That's next.

Plus, Trump has predicted he will win the Hispanic vote. We will look at how Hispanic voters are reacting to his message up next. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:25:30]

BROWN: Well, not even retirement could keep David Letterman from getting in another good laugh at Donald Trump's expense.

Less than two months after giving up the late-night throne, Letterman made a surprise appearance at a San Antonio comedy tour featuring Martin Short and Steve Martin. Letterman said he just couldn't resist the opportunity to give Trump his most famous "Late Show" treatment.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DAVID LETTERMAN, FORMER HOST, "LATE SHOW WITH DAVID LETTERMAN": I was complacent, I was satisfied, I was content.

And then a couple of days ago, Donald Trump said he was running for president.

(LAUGHTER) (CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)

LETTERMAN: I have made the biggest mistake of my life, ladies and gentlemen.

But take a look at the list I have here tonight, interesting facts about Donald Trump.

So, number 10, that thing on his head was the gopher in "Caddyshack."

(LAUGHTER)

Number nine, during sex, Donald Trump calls out his own name.

(LAUGHTER)

Number eight, Donald Trump looks like the guy on the lifeboat with the women and children.

Number even, he wants to build a wall? How about building a wall around that thing on his head?

(LAUGHTER)

Number six, trump walked away from a moderately successful television show for some delusional bulls -- oh no, wait, that's me.

Number five, Donald Trump weighs 240 pounds, 250 with cologne.

Number four, Trump would like all Americans to know that thing on his head is free range.

Number three, if president, instead of pardoning a turkey on Thanksgiving, he plans to evict the family on Thanksgiving.

Number two, Donald Trump has pissed off so many Mexicans, he's starring in a new movie entitled "No Amigos."

(LAUGHTER)

And the number one interesting fact about Donald Trump, thanks to Donald Trump, the Republican mascot is also an ass.

There you are.

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Well, there you have it from David Letterman.

And Donald Trump, by the way, he doesn't seem to mind the negative attention. Listen to how he handled some hecklers in Phoenix over the weekend.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I wonder if the Mexican government sent them over here. I think so, because I'm telling you, I tell about the bad deals that this country is making. Mexico, I respect the country. They're taking our jobs. They're taking our manufacturing. They're taking our money. They're taking everything and they're killing us on the border.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Let's bring in Ruben Barrales. He's the son of a Mexican immigrants, worked in the George W. Bush White House, and is currently the president of GROW Elect, a group that recruits and funds Latino Republican candidates in California.

Thanks so much for coming on, Ruben.

My first question to you is, if you had the opportunity, Ruben, to have a one-on-one sit-down Donald Trump, what would you tell him?

RUBEN BARRALES, PRESIDENT, GROW ELECT: I would tell him, Mr. Trump, you're fired.

You're a terrible candidate if you're actually running to win a nomination. You're a wonderful showman. You get a lot of attention. You seem to thrive on that. But, unfortunately, it's not helpful to the Republican Party and folks who are serious about public policy in this country.

Donald Trump really is not a Republican. He's given more money to Democrats than to Republicans. He's given money to Hillary Clinton. Hillary Clinton seems not to be willing to forcefully back against his specific statements and definitely has not said whether or not she will return any of his money that she has given to her and to her foundation.

He doesn't represent the new modern Republican Party, unfortunately. I think he will not be the nominee of the party. I think he will be a blip on the screen that people will be talking about years from now, but the reality is, I'm very impressed with what he's done in terms of building a personal fortune.

He's an interesting TV personality. But in terms of the new modern Republican Party, we really need a nominee who is serious, who is inclusive, who is optimistic, who is going to bring people together. Those are the only kind of Republicans really that can win and, if you look at modern history, that have been successful in winning.

And, unfortunately, as a son of Mexican immigrants, his remarks are insulting. It -- he really needs to apologize for those particular remarks. He can have this position on immigration --

BROWN: But, Ruben, let me -- let me ask you this, though.

BARRALES: -- but his remarks on Mexicans are -- are just unacceptable.