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AT THIS HOUR WITH BERMAN AND MICHAELA

El Chapo Escapes Prison; Iraq Attempts Take Back of Anbar Province from ISIS; Iran Nuclear Deal Down to the Wire; New Book Portrays Atticus Finch as Racist. Aired 11:30a-12p ET

Aired July 13, 2015 - 11:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


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[11:32:44] JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: New this morning, one of the world's most powerful criminals, one of the world's most devious escape artists, the very person you would never want to break out of a prison just broke out of prison. Joaquin "el Chapo" Guzman is on the run again. He busted out of a maximum security prison in Mexico City Saturday night.

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: El Chapo stepped into a shower, crawled through a hole, and vanished through an elaborate tunnel, a tunnel with ventilation, with lighting.

CNN went inside one of his escape tunnels from his last break out. Just take a look at this.

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NICK PARKER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Beneath this bathtub, a secret tunnel. So if you climb down the steps, you find yourself in the tunnel itself. And you can see it's been quite carefully constructed out of wood. You have to crouch a little bit but you're quite mobile. And there's an electricity system running throughout it. The nearest other safe house from here is three kilometers in this direction.

The constructed part of the tunnel ends here. And if you go through this door, you find yourself in the sewage system, an ideal escape route.

And the tunnel system comes out right here in another safe house just down the road. And as you can see, it is a very similar setup to the previous one.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: This shows just how elaborate the escapes are and how it's been done before by this same man.

Joining us to discuss is Alberto Gonzalez, a former U.S. attorney general, now the dean at Belmont University College of Law.

It's great to see you. Thank you so much for coming in.

If you were sitting in the attorney general's seat right now, you hear that this notorious criminal has broken out yet again from a prison, what's your reaction?

ALBERTO GONZALEZ, FORMER U.S. ATTORNEY GENERAL & DEAN, BELMONT UNIVERSITY COLLEGE OF LAW: Disappointment and a little bit of anger. Obviously we have our own issues with people breaking out of prisons here in the United States so we can't be too hypocritical about it, but obviously the idea to have him extradited would have been an utmost priority and I remember back in 2007 Mexico extradited 15 traffickers in January. We did that secretly. It required direct conversations between myself and the attorney general of Mexico. I didn't even tell the ambassador, the U.S. ambassador. I didn't tell the head of DEA that we were doing this because it is such a controversial issue in Mexico. We're worried about the level of corruption in Mexico. Therefore, we did it very, very secretly and we were able to extradite 15 top drug traffickers back in 2007. So there is a history of cooperation, and I'm sure that the attorney general of the United States is lamenting the fact that we weren't able to make that happen with respect to Mr. Guzman.

[11:35:] BERMAN: You say you'd be disappointed and a little bit angry and you had a little grin on your face. I think you were speaking euphemistically. It sounds like you would have been a little bit furious. You know there's been some cooperation in the past, there's good cooperation between the nights and Mexico on many issues, but one of the complicating factors in trying to catch drug lords down there, do you feel like you have 100 percent cooperation in Mexico at all levels from the presidency all the way down to the streets?

GONZALEZ: Oh, I think you do have cooperation certainly at the senior level but the closer you get down to the street, I think you have less confidence in the level of cooperation because there is a lot of corruption, a lot of money that changes hands. People live in fear not only for their own lives but the lives of their family, which results in greater cooperation with drug kingpins. So listen, it's clearly a challenge and it was certainly a challenge when I served as the attorney general and we try to work closely with Mexican authorities but there are limits to what the United States can do in respecting the sovereignty of another nation and Mexico is very, very jealous of its sovereignty. We always had to be very careful in trying to intrude too much into the sovereignty of Mexico. As a result of that sovereignty, it presents limitations on our visibility in terms of what is going on in the law enforcement and in the prison community there in Mexico.

BOLDUAN: And there were conversations we're told when he was captured a year ago to have him extradited to the United States because of these exact fears being one of them, is his ability to somehow miraculously get these amazing escape plans under way. I think you're kind of alluding to it. What is the resistance then if there's such a problem? What's the resistant in extraditing him to the United States? How do those conversations go?

GONZALEZ: First of all, it may occur attorney general to attorney general. It may occur to the deputy attorney general to the deputy there in Mexico. So it's going to occur at a fairly high level for someone of this stature, but one of the things, one of the challenges we had with Mexico for many years is that the resistance to extradite someone to a country that has a death penalty for example. You take that off the table in order to get them extradited into the United States. For some period of time in the early 2000s, the Mexico Supreme Court held that extraditing someone to a country that had a life sentence, that wasn't allowed under the constitution. That changed after a period of time, so there's a different culture, a different legal system that we have to maneuver around in order to be successful in getting an extradition from Mexico.

BOLDUAN: Former Attorney General Alberto Gonzalez. It's great to have you on this exact topic and that's exactly what we're thinking about, how well it worked in 2007 when you were able to get that kind of extradition of 15 drug criminals and how it clearly did not work the same this time.

Thank you so much for your time.

GONZALEZ: Good to be with you.

BOLDUAN: Thanks.

BERMAN: All right. Coming up for us, one of the great figures in all of American literature, the human so many of us wanted to be, the father so many of us wanted to be. Atticus Finch, is he a racist? A new book, a book out this week says yes. Millions of American readers are going, no!

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[11:42:16] BOLDUAN: We're learning this morning that Iraq is making moves to take back important territory from ISIS. Iraq's defense ministry has announced today it's launched a military operation to retake Anbar Province.

BERMAN: So they claim the assault on the city of Fallujah is under way.

Joining us to discuss this, Jomana Karadsheh.

Jomana, what are we hearing on the ground because sometimes some of their claims, militarily speaking, don't always match up to the truth?

JOMANA KARADSHEH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Absolutely, John. What we know is the Iraqi ministry of defense today announced saying they have launched an operation with joint Iraqi forces, the Iraqi militias and security forces to regain control of Anbar Province. We also heard from the Shia militias, known as popular mobilization units, the Iranian-backed and trained militias saying they have started this offensive. In the past week we have been hearing these moves, talk from these popular mobilization units saying that they have amassed troops, surrounded the city of Fallujah, they have 4,000 fighters involved in this fight. But we have heard, as you mentioned, John, we have heard such announcements in the past, especially after May with the major setback we saw in Anbar Province with the fall of Ramadi. A lot of concern here what will happen. We have to wait and see how significant this is and if there's real movements on the ground that we haven't seen so far with previous announcement. A lot of concern about the civilians who remain in Fallujah. Witnesses we spoke to in the past week in the city say that they're concerned ISIS will use them as human shields -- John?

BERMAN: People have been caught in the middle for nearly a year, in some cases, more than a year.

Jomana Karadsheh, thanks so much.

BOLDUAN: Coming up for us, we could be minutes away from history. We're expecting an announcement soon about a nuclear deal with Iran. But who gave more in the end? That's a key question.

BERMAN: Plus, he was the moral compass for generations of Americans, a towering literary hero. Could it be that Atticus Finch is really a racist? The literary shake-up that's been nearly six decades in the making.

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[11:47:39] BOLDUAN: We're waiting to hear if world powers and Iran have reached an agreement, a long-fought and sought agreement to limit Iran's nuclear program. A couple of the major sticking points have been limits on inspections and, of course, how soon and in what sequence sanctions against Iran could be lifted.

BERMAN: Joining us now is Joseph Cirincione, a member of Secretary of State John Kerry's international security advisory board, also a member of the Council on Foreign Relations and the author of "Nuclear Nightmares: Securing the World Before It Is Too Late."

Joe, I know you're connected to what's going on right now in Vienna. We were expecting maybe an announcement yesterday, told it could be hours away. This morning we were told it could be minutes away. It keeps on drifting a little bit for us. What's the situation on the ground in Vienna that you're hearing?

JOSEPH CIRINCIONE, STATE DEPARTMENT INTERNATIONAL ADVISORY BOARD & MEMBER, COUNCIL ON FOREIGN RELATIONS & AUTHOR: Yeah, these negotiations have been a long time in coming. And you said a historic deal, that's right. We have been trying since the presidency of Ronald Reagan to roll back and contain Iran's nuclear program. Four presidents have tried, four have failed. It looks like President Obama may have found the correct formula. This international coalition that has slapped sanctions on Iran, forced them to the table, and now a negotiated deal that will be a win/win for both sides. We have solved most of the major problems, most of the issues on how to roll back the program, the inspection regime to go in, but we're hung up on a couple last-second details. What exactly is the sequencing of the sanctions relief? What exactly does Iran have to do and when do we start releasing some of those frozen funds? Do we release the arms embargo that has stopped arms from going into and out of Iran and if so, what is the sequencing of that? And finally making sure that our inspectors can go to some of these sensitive military sites. All of that is being hammered out in these last few hours.

BOLDUAN: Joe, I think folks who haven't been following this closely, they can ends why it would be so important that inspections be in place and there be real inspections, that those will be taking place. They understand why that would be important. Why though the sequence of the sanctions? Why does that keep tripping up these negotiations?

CIRINCIONE: Yeah, well, Iran would like to have all the sanctions lifted at once. So their bank accounts unfrozen. We have $100 billion of their oil money that has been frozen in banks. They would like all the trade restrictions stopped at once, but we obviously want to see them implementing the deal, doing what they say they were going to do before we start releasing this, and we don't want a flood of money going into Iran and having Iranian leaders use it to buy new arms they might be able to ship, for example, to Assad in Syria whom they support. So that's what the sequence is all about. I think they've reached a formula on their side. I think they've got something that will stretch it out, that will tie the sanction relief to Iranian implementation, to Iranian good behavior. But the Iranians are tough bargainers. I do expect a deal to be announced late tonight Vienna time.

[11:50:51] BOLDUAN: All right.

BERMAN: OK. Could be the end game late tonight or tomorrow.

Joe Cirincione, thank you so much for being with us. Appreciate it.

BOLDUAN: Thanks, Joe.

CIRINCIONE: Thank you, John.

Thank you, Kate.

BOLDUAN: Thank you.

BERMAN: A stunning twist nearly 60 years in the making. Could Atticus Finch generally the moral compass to millions of readers, could he be oh so different than we originally thought. Could he be a racist?

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BERMAN: Atticus Finch. To so many American readers, he's the pillar of justice and fatherly wisdom and tolerance. But could it be that he is a racist? With the new release of Harper Lee's book, the book sitting in the dust for 60 years, when it comes out tomorrow, a lot of people are getting a much different view of this man Finch that they thought they knew.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GREGORY PECK, ACTOR: You never really understand a person until you consider things from his point of view.

UNIDENTIFIED ACTRESS: So?

PECK: Until you climb inside of his skin and walk around in it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: That's really one of the famous lines that everyone remembers from "To Kill a Mockingbird," and so many more.

For Atticus Finch fans and fans of "To Kill a Mockingbird," that's the Atticus Finch they have known and loved for more than half a century. Now Harper Lee's new book "Go Set a Watchman" could challenge, and already is, challenge readers to reassess and rethink this great protagonist.

Maureen Corrigan is the book critic for NPR's "Fresh Air." And she has seen and read an advance copy of the novel.

Maureen, thank you for coming in.

You're one of the few people who have had a chance to read the whole thing and you describe the novel as "messy." What does that mean?

MAUREEN CORRIGAN, BOOK CRITIC, FRESH AIR, NPR: It is messy. I mean, if we take the origin story of this novel at face value, it's a first draft "To Kill a Mockingbird" and it's sort of all over the place. There are a lot of dead patches in this novel but, of course, it's morally messy, too. Because Atticus in this novel, which takes place in the mid-1950s, is spouting views about race that none of us could have ever anticipated.

BERMAN: So what do we do with this? My wife and I were arguing about this all weekend. She's shattered. She says "Atticus is a racist, what do we do now?" I said, "No, no, this is an alternate universe. Just imagine a whole different sort of series where Atticus turns out to be a racist but we can keep the book we now and love." Do we have to reassess this figure? What do we do with this?

CORRIGAN: I don't think we can read "To Kill a Mockingbird" anymore without this book and without this vision of Atticus in our head. It's not just that his views on race are more nuanced or complicated. He's a segregationist. He's spouting eugenics theory. I mean, he says things like "The blacks of Macon County are child like." Scout listening to this accuses him of sounding like Hitler and Goebbels. It's a very extreme position that Atticus is taking.

[11:55:32] BOLDUAN: What do -- we all read this in school. This is the basis of where we all started loving "To Kill a Mockingbird" so much and Atticus Finch. What do you think English teachers across the country will do with this now?

CORRIGAN: I think English teachers will have to teach "To Kill a Mockingbird" with at least portions of "Go Set a Watchman" side by side. I think they're going to have to use these two visions of Atticus for useful discussion. Also, since the novels are set at different times -- "To Kill a Mockingbird" is set in the Depression, this is in the thick of the civil rights movement as it's gathering force -- it could be useful in order to talk about people's resistance.

BERMAN: But isn't it possible Harper Lee changed her mind? She wrote this first draft of "Go Set a Watchman" where Atticus is a racist editor, said, "Try it again." And she thought, "I'm going to write a version of where Atticus isn't a racist."

CORRIGAN: You're believing the official story. I find this novel very suspicious. It reads like a failed sequel. It doesn't read like a first draft of the novel we know and love.

BERMAN: Right.

BOLDUAN: Maureen Corrigan, we're waiting to read it and you got a first look.

CORRIGAN: Yes.

BOLDUAN: Thank you so much.

BERMAN: Thanks for breaking my heart, Maureen.

(LAUGHTER)

CORRIGAN: Thank you.

BERMAN: Come back again.

CORRIGAN: OK.

BOLDUAN: Thanks so much for joining us AT THIS HOUR, everybody.

"LEGAL VIEW" starts after a quick break.

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