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AT THIS HOUR WITH BERMAN AND MICHAELA

Dangerous Drug Lord El Chapo Escapes Prison; Iran Nuclear Deal to the Wire; Does Trump Speak for "Silent Majority". Aired 11-11:30a ET

Aired July 13, 2015 - 11:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[11:00:00] CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: Thank you so much for joining me today. I'm Carol Costello.

AT THIS HOUR with Berman and Bolduan starts now.

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: One of the world's most notorious drug lords is right now on the run after a daring escape from a maximum security prison. One expert says if El Chapo isn't caught in the next 24 hours, kiss him good-bye.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: And we could be minutes away from history. We're expecting an announcement soon about a nuclear deal with Iran, but what is inside this deal and who gave more in the end?

BOLDUAN: And he's one of the greatest heroes in American literature, but in a new book, Atticus Finch is portrayed as racist. What is behind Harper Lee's stunning twist?

BERMAN: Hello, everyone. I'm John Berman.

BOLDUAN: I'm Kate Bolduan. Thanks for joining us.

Happening right now, the world's most powerful and dangerous drug lord is on the loose after an escape from a maximum security prison in Mexico. Joaquin Guzman, nicknamed El Chapo or Shorty, he slipped through a hole in his prison cell shower into a mile-long underground tunnel, apparently built just for him. And it wasn't just a tunnel. It was sophisticated with lighting and ventilation, even motorcycle on a track.

BERMAN: A motorcycle. No run-of-the-mill escape and no run-of-the- mill dangerous fugitive. He is believed to have ordered the murders of more than 10,000 people. He's the kingpin of a global drug empire that supplies much of the cocaine, heroin and marijuana sold in the United States.

Joining us now outside the prison just west of Mexico City, a prison with a giant tunnel underneath it, Polo Sandoval.

Good morning, Polo. What's the latest?

POLO SANDOVAL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Guys, good morning. Very difficult to see that tunnel as it is underground, but it basically stretches from the prison facility that you see behind me and I'll show it to you as federal police continue on their patrols around the perimeter, and then extends just past really this road here up to a brick home that was under construction and that is where authorities say this very powerful, very dangerous, and very ruthful individual emerged Saturday into Sunday. This is an individual that authorities want to get their hands on and not just here in Mexico but also in the United States. He's got several outstanding charges and there's several indictments as well for other states there. He is believed to have been responsible for the smuggling of what can only be estimated as tons of drugs not to mention the deaths of rival cartel members and innocent men, women, and children. So right now the search is on. I can tell you that there's a partial perimeter that's been set up in and around the prison. We're only an hour's drive from the country's capital of Mexico City, west of there. We're also seeing certain perimeters set up around some of the smaller towns. What's interesting though, guys, is that life seems to be moving forward for so many residents, particularly the people who live in this maximum security prison, the businesses are open, some of the simple cinder block homes, families are still going about their business. But, again, the main priority is to find out how he was able to escape and most importantly exactly where is this very, very dangerous man -- Guys?

BERMAN: He was able to dig a tunnel with ventilation and a motorcycle underneath. Not the kind of thing that generally happens without someone knowing about it.

Polo Sandoval, thanks so much.

BOLDUAN: To that point, let's discuss much more about this, much more about the kingpin and that elaborate escape.

Joining us is Malcolm Beith, the author of "The Last Narco: Inside the Hunt for El Chapo, the World's Most Wanted Drug Lord."

Malcolm, thank you so much for joining us.

He's a drug lord and he's overseeing an enterprise estimated to be worth more than $1 billion but how dangerous is this man?

MALCOLM BEITH, AUTHOR: It's a very tough question to answer. I'd love to portray him as the evil villain. Right now I think he is probably a man on the run. How dangerous is he? Time will tell. We'll be able to see what his agenda is now that he's escaped. Is he trying to just flee into the mountains to retire, to live with his family happily ever after? Or is he trying to retake control of the Sinaloa Cartel, which has taken a big beating by law enforcement over the last six years, especially the last three. I think it's worth mentioning that the DEA and Mexican law enforcement have really punctured holes in his network, and so the question is, you know, what's his goal now? Will he try and consolidate power or will he just go quietly and live out his days?

BERMAN: You know, you have this book about life on the run for this man. That's because he was on the run once before, before they caught him again. You would think he is the last person you would ever allow to escape from a prison, and it wasn't just any escape, it was an elaborate escape with a tunnel and ventilation and a motorcycle underneath. How connected is he? If he had help, you know, would it be unthinkable to think he had help within the prison or perhaps even higher?

[11:05:22] BEITH: I'm not going to speculate on corruption in Mexican prisons. There have been plenty of cases in the past, and in the first instance of his, you know, his escape in 1993, there was certainly corruption involved. The levels of corruption, one thing I think is very important, a more serious thing that has to be considered right now is, for instance, if you're a guard, a security guard at one of these prisons guarding these top criminals who do have connections and money, vast amounts of power and influence among the criminal world, do you -- these guards don't necessarily -- they're not very well paid, and they don't really -- do they have mechanisms for whistle blowing, for instance? If they hear rumors about tunnel building -- I mean, someone had to talk, right? Do they have anyone they can tell? I think that's the important thing looking forward on a more serious note rather than just pointing fingers, et cetera, which will be done, is looking at how these places are policed and how -- whether guards have the right mechanisms to report what they see as criminal activity. Human Right Commission sometimes visits the prisons, but not all the time. They're not always allowed access. That's an important thing to consider.

BOLDUAN: Malcolm, you write about life on the run, the hunt for El Chapo. You wonder and we all do what is his goal now that he's out, but where do you think he could be? Where do you think he's going?

BEITH: I think that there are basically two options. And that's always been the option in Mexico is stay in your home turf, the mountains, which is where he's from, the mountains of Sinaloa where he's safe. It takes a few hours to get there for the military. By the time they get there, he's long gone, and then there are the big cities. The big cities are actually great hiding places for these guys. You know, it takes a lot of guts to report a sighting of Chapo Guzman when there's no reward. There are plenty of rumors. The rumors can circulate but you have to have real intelligence to go after these guys. It is not as easy to catch them as I think we like to think.

BERMAN: Well, this guy has made a tunnel system before to escape from places when he's been hunted and clearly he knows how to tunnel so catching him is not easy.

Malcolm, we have to go --

(CROSSTALK)

BERMAN: Go ahead.

BEITH: OK. One of the things I wrote about in my book was that it was a hunt, but it's not this sort of dogged persistent hunt. These guys move and they're always going to be faster than the law I think unfortunately because they think like they do. They don't -- law enforcement -- the good law enforcement of this world, follows procedures, has bureaucracy they have to deal with. These guys don't do that. They do what they want.

BERMAN: Right.

BEITH: And most of the time, they're going to be one step ahead of the game.

BERMAN: Well, let's hope the Mexican authorities can catch up to this man, one of the more powerful drug kingpins the world has seen. Thought to be responsible for the death of maybe 10,000 people.

Malcolm Beith, thanks very much. Appreciate it.

BOLDUAN: Thank you.

BERMAN: So negotiations over Iran's nuclear program down to the wire. Any minute now, we could get a final agreement out of Vienna.

Joining us to discuss these talks, our senior international correspondent, Nic Robertson.

Nic, what's the latest?

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: John, that's been the mood in the early part of the day, that everything was really close and it could be wrapped up this morning and that a deal with be done and announced. Where we stand this afternoon, it's looking a little different from that. The briefings that we're getting at the moment both from Iranian side and from western diplomats here tend to indicate this is slipping deep into the evening today and possibly may slip even into tomorrow. The sticking points as we've discussed so many times, the possible military dimensions, that is as Iran uses nuclear technology to develop a weapon, that's an outstanding issue and one Iran has raised fairly recently, the lifting of an arms embargo that was put in place as part of a U.N. Security Council resolution. That's still in question. What weapons of mass destruction. Once you get a deal done here, it would go to the Security Council for a new resolution and the Iranians would look for wording in that on the arms embargo that would give them some comfort. That seems to be one of the sticking points as well. So I think as everyone has seen, so many deadlines here come and go, June 30th, July 7th, July 10th, now July 13th. This deadline, too, may come and go. It's certainly, certainly going down to the wire -- John?

[11:10:32] BERMAN: The deadlines in and of themselves don't seem to matter very much in this negotiation. The question is are they close to a deal or not? Or is it slipping further away?

Nic Robertson for us on the scene. Let us know if you hear anything. Thanks, Nic.

A drug lord so powerful he ordered the murders of 10,000 people. He breaks out of prison a second time. Not just any breakout, through a tunnel so big you could drive a motorcycle through it. Who helped him? How high up does this go?

BOLDUAN: And speaking of El Chapo, Donald Trump tells America, "I told you so." Next, a Republican who supports Trump, another who can't stand him, takes on Trump's momentum.

BERMAN: And it's like finding out Santa Claus hates kids. The image of one of America's iconic heroes, a pillar of decency, shattered. The new release that says Atticus Finch is a racist. Say it ain't so, Harper, say it ain't so.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[11:14:46] BERMAN: New this morning, David Letterman says he retired too soon. If he would have known Donald Trump was going to run for president, he says he might have stuck it out for a few more months. But guess what? He came out of retirement for a moment at least to read a special top-10 list dedicated to Donald Trump.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DAVID LETTERMAN, FORMER HOST: LATE NIGHT: Number 10, that thing on his head was the gopher in "Caddy Shack."

(LAUGHTER)

Number nine, during sex Donald Trump calls out his own name.

(LAUGHTER)

Number eight, Donald Trump looks like the guy in the lifeboat with the women and children.

(LAUGHTER)

Number seven, he wants to build a wall. How about building a wall around that thing on his head?

(LAUGHTER)

Number six, Trump walked away from a moderately successful television show for some delusional (EXPLETIVE DELETED). Oh, no, wait, that's me.

(LAUGHTER)

Number five, Donald Trump weighs 240 pounds, 250 with cologne.

(LAUGHTER)

Number four, Trump would like all Americans to know that that thing on his head is free range.

(LAUGHTER)

Number three, if president, instead of pardoning a turkey on Thanksgiving, he plans to evict the family on Thanksgiving.

(LAUGHTER)

Number two, Donald Trump has pissed off so many Mexicans he's starring in a new movie entitled "No Amigos."

(LAUGHTER)

And the number one interesting fact about Donald Trump, thanks to Donald Trump, the Republican mascot is also an ass.

There you go.

(LAUGHTER)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: So Trump may be comedy gold for David Letterman but he's also making some of his fellow Republicans and fellow Republican candidates cringe. But is Trump just saying what others are thinking?

Let's talk about it with CNN political commentator and Jeb Bush supporter, Ana Navarro; and Jeffrey Lord, who worked in the Reagan White House and is now a contributing editor to the "American Spectator" and a supporter of Mr. Trump.

Great to see both of you.

Jeffrey, thank you so much for coming back in.

JEFFREY LORD, CONTRIBUTING EDITOR, AMERICAN SPECTATOR: Thanks for having me.

BOLDUAN: Of course.

Donald Trump is drawing big crowds over the weekend. He's not backing down. He's sticking with his stance on his comments on immigration. He's also using a new line, "the silent majority." "The silent majority is back," he says. "We're going to take our country back." If you're advising his campaign, would you advise him to use that line? Is that good for the party?

LORD: Well, the silent majority originally came from Richard Nixon and I actually think it came from a couple pollsters before that. So it's old, it's sort of dusted off, but I think it's an accurate reflection of what's going on here, and I do think there are a lot of people -- this issue was down somewhere around 4 percent in the polls until president Bush 43 came out and I'm going from Ann Coulter's "Adios, America" here, she does a good bit of research on this. When president Bush 43 came out with his comprehensive immigration policies in 2006, suddenly this shot to 60 percent in the polls that opposed this. It went basically from nowhere. So I think he's got a point about all of this and I think it's -- you know, at this point it's a fairly old point.

BERMAN: Ana, is it though the current thinking in the Republican Party, the establishment at least, isn't what the Republican autopsy after 2012, wasn't what that was about the idea that there is a new majority in this country, that you need to talk to Latinos? You need to find new ways to discuss immigration? So do you believe that the silent majority is where Donald Trump says it is or do you believe there's a new majority somewhere else?

ANA NAVARRO, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I think there's definitely a segment of the party to whom Donald Trump is speaking. We see it in the numbers. We see it in his popularity. You know, this has gone on now for almost a month. I don't think you can chalk it up just to celebrity status and just to name I.D., though I do think those two things are large parts of his popularity now and his relevance and why we're still talking about him on cable tv three-plus weeks after the fact and after his announcement. I don't think he's representative of the Republican party, and we've seen people, candidates like Jeb Bush, like Marco Rubio, like Lindsey Graham, Chris Christie, and the list goes on distance themselves, condemn his comments, and just say his tenor is not something that is reflective of the Republican party. The sad thing is he's actually bringing out and talking about some legitimate policy issues. I think we need to have a discussion on sanctuary cities. We cannot have a free for all in cities around America where the federal government procedures and requests are being ignored. He's bringing up the good point about the corruption in Mexico, which is, by the way, not newsworthy. Anybody who doesn't know that the government and law enforcement in Mexico is corrupt and inept has been living under a rock for the last 50 years. But we're not having the policy discussion because it's all getting lost in his barking.

BOLDUAN: Ana, are you shifting in your views a little bit? Are you starting to like Donald Trump because you sure --

(CROSSTALK)

NAVARRO: Oh, hell no, darling.

(LAUGHTER)

I don't know what you're listen in my tone of voice that makes you think I'm liking Donald Trump. I disliked Donald Trump before it was popular to dislike Donald Trump. Let me just be clear about that. I think he's an entertainer. I think you watch him in the same way you watch a car crash. But I do think that the sanctuary cities is a real issue and I think the corruption in Mexico is a real issue. Are we having a real discussion about it? No, because he's nothing but sound bites and offensive comments.

[11:20:25] BERMAN: Ana, you brought up the term "car crash."

Jeffrey, Lindsey Graham this weekend said Donald Trump is taking a wrecking ball to the Republican Party. Do you think he is hurting the brand or do you think he's hurting the brand that many Republicans right now want to portray?

LORD: Well, as you noted, I worked for President Reagan, and President Reagan went through this kind of thing where he was repeatedly accused of being -- before he was elected president by establishment Republicans of being an extremist and out of touch and some people even said he was a racist. All of this kind of thing. There is nothing new with this. This has been going on with moderate Republicans and conservatives for decades. So here comes Donald Trump. The very fact that Ana, as you noticed, is sort of hedging a little bit on this and talking about sanctuary cities is because --

(CROSSTALK)

NAVARRO: What exactly am I hedging on? I have said over and over now for weeks that sanctuary cities are a legitimate issue and that Donald Trump is not a legitimate candidate. Which part am I hedging on?

(CROSSTALK)

NAVARRO: Go ahead and do your entire Trump thing but leave me the heck out of it. Do I that favor, will you?

LORD: OK --

(CROSSTALK)

NAVARRO: I am not hedging on Donald Trump. I condemn his comments. I think they're racist and bad for the Republican Party. How is that for hedging?

(CROSSTALK)

BOLDUAN: Go ahead.

LORD: Well, let me tell you, I think the Republican Party has a tendency to paternalize Latinos. All the Latinos we have in the country, who came here legally, who did the right thing, are being insulted here by the Republican Party --

(CROSSTALK)

NAVARRO: Thank you for telling me what should be insulting. But you see, I'm one of those Latinos that came here with a visa on a plane that went through the process. And, no, I don't think that the Republican Party --

(CROSSTALK)

NAVARRO: -- is too paternalistic. I don't find Marco Rubio or Jeb Bush to paternal. So thank you for lecturing me on what I should be feeling about the Republican Party as a Latino. Now would you like to make a point?

(CROSSTALK)

LORD: I don't think you're Latino, Ana. I think you're an American.

(CROSSTALK)

NAVARRO: What am I? What am I?

LORD: You're an American, just like me and everybody else in this country who is here legally.

NAVARRO: I am an American.

(CROSSTALK)

NAVARRO: America is my home. I'm an American who was born in Nicaragua, naturalized under Ronald Reagan's amnesty.

(CROSSTALK)

NAVARRO: Now you've lectured me on how I should feel as a Republican, now you've lectured me on what I'm hedging me and now that you've lectured me about what I am, do you have an actual point?

(CROSSTALK)

LORD: Are you not an American, Ana?

BOLDUAN: Respond?

LORD: Are you not an American?

NAVARRO: Did I not just say I'm an American citizen? I'm a proud naturalized American.

LORD: There are no Latinos in this country. There are no African- American --

(CROSSTALK)

NAVARRO: You're the one that brought up the term, but go right ahead.

LORD: We are all Americans.

NAVARRO: Uh-huh.

LORD: And that's what we're talking about here. And we've got a lot of people, who believe very strongly, and you saw those people with Donald Trump over the weekend, whose family members have been killed, and they weren't getting any attention to this fact because they were killed by illegal immigrants. This is wrong. This is morally wrong. The Republican Party should never, ever be on the side of taking the civil rights of American citizens, having them lose their children because somebody is in this country illegally. That is wrong.

NAVARRO: The point you are --

(CROSSTALK)

BOLDUAN: Ana and Jeffrey, you both touched on points that I think this debate is now ignited.

(CROSSTALK)

NAVARRO: -- comprehensive immigration out there being offered that does not call for weeding out and immediately deporting criminal aliens. That's in every responsible comprehensive immigration reform that's been proposed in the last 10, 15 years. And I, as somebody that came here legally, I, as somebody that naturalized as an American, I am absolutely supportive of the first thing we do is get rid of those bad apples that came to this country and that did things wrong. They have no place in this country.

BERMAN: Jeffrey, if you had to enunciate what Donald Trump's plan is on immigration, immigration reform or immigration change other than building a wall on the border, what's his actual policy proposal --

(CROSSTALK)

BERMAN: -- to fix the immigration problem that he talks about?

LORD: The thing is that's the first step and we can't get people to agree on that first step. President Obama won't agree to that first step. As a standalone, that's first thing. You know, again, Ann Coulter uses the analogy that if your bathroom is being flooded with the water running, the very first thing you do is turn off the water. That's where we have to start. Then we go from there. But everybody wants to go down the road here, and we can't go down the road until this is accomplished, and there's nothing wrong with this. There is nothing wrong, and suggesting that millions of Americans are somehow, you know, little David Dukes because of this, that is a terrible thing to say about people. Good people like Jamil Shaw Sr., an African- American who lost his son and felt he couldn't get any attention to this fact because the killer was an illegal immigrant. This is just morally wrong. We have to change this.

[11:25:32] BOLDUAN: And, Jeffrey, quick question, this has been raised a couple times and I want to get your take. I want to get Ana's take on this as well. Obviously, you think Donald Trump has sparked a conversation. I think we can all agree on that because I don't think we'd be talking about immigration in these terms if he hadn't, do you think he is actually making a legitimate run for president? As Ana points out, he's a celebrity. People know about him because of his show. He goes on these -- his speeches are rambling and kind of nonlinear in where they are. Do you think as a supporter of him he is making a serious run for president or he's just doing what Donald Trump has in the past always done?

LORD: The only thing I'd say is we don't endorse candidates, so I'm not a Trump supporter. But absolutely, and I would point out that we had all kinds of people saying he's not going to run and now he's running, and then they said he's not going to get anywhere and now he's at the top of the polls. I absolutely -- I mean, I have gotten to know him a little bit. I absolutely think he's serious. He's been talking about this kind of thing for a number of years. He really does believe this. He's quite sincere in this. And I would also add, this business of being an entertainer, this is a guy who built this entire global Trump organization from scratch. I mean, this is a serious businessman. This is a serious --

(CROSSTALK)

BERMAN: I would take the inheritance he had any day.

(LAUGHTER)

(CROSSTALK)

BERMAN: Ana -- hand on. I want to get in here.

Ana, I want to ask you a question here, following up on what Kate was asking. When this all started, I guess it was three and a half weeks ago, with Trump getting in the race or two weeks ago. I know you were hoping to dismiss this. You were laughing it off like a lot of people were saying this is a joke, let's just not pay attention to him and hope he goes away. But at this point it seems to me you are at least saying he's not going away. He's here, and you've got to deal with him as being a force at some level in this election.

NAVARRO: I have absolutely no idea, John, what's in his head. Fortunately, I don't speak his language and I don't think like he does. I don't know how long he's going to stay. You know, there's some legal requirements to him staying in the race. He's going to have to file a financial disclosure. He has said repeatedly now that he plans to do so this week. It's got to be a complete financial disclosure under penalty of perjury. It's not like that one sheet of paper that he brought out the day of announcement saying, hey, I'm very, very rich. I'm very rich. In case you haven't heard, I'm very rich. I'm worth $8 billion. He's going to have to put on paper where all of that is coming from and where exactly it is and, you know, what it is. Whether he's going to do that or not, we don't know. It's a requirement to get into the debate. So, you know, we're going to see if he fills out the financial disclosures, the legal requirements, if he goes through the hoops to get on the ballot in all of the 50 states. There's a lot of things that go into running for president. It ain't just saying I'm running for president. If you're going to mount a legitimate campaign, there's a lot of structure, a lot of requirements that have to be met.

BOLDUAN: Ana, Jeffrey, thank you very much for the frank discussion.

LORD: Thank you, Ana.

BOLDUAN: Let's do it again.

Ana, thanks.

Coming up for us, breaking news in the war against ISIS. We're getting a word that Iraq has launched, a major offensive against the terrorist organization in a key province. We'll talk about this very important assault in a moment.

BERMAN: Plus, the most powerful drug lord on earth, the last man you would ever want to escape from a prison, he escaped. We'll take you inside the secret tunnels with ventilation, lighting and a motorcycle track. How did this happen?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)