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Manhunt Underway for Notorious Carter Leader; Will Greece Be Rescued?; Donald Trump on the Rise; El Chapo Escapes from Prison; Trump's Impact on the Republican Brand; Season Premiere of "THE HUNT". Aired 6-7p ET

Aired July 12, 2015 - 18:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[18:00:02] POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: Exactly. He is certainly to watch. I look forward to covering him when he is here this fall.

John Allen -- yes, we will. I'll see you then my friend. Thank you very much, John. We appreciate it.

ALLEN: You bet.

Top of the hour. I'm Poppy Harlow in New York. And we begin with this. The man considered the most infamous drug lord in the world is on the loose right now after a spectacular prison break in Mexico.

His name, Joaquin Guzman, better known by his nickname El Chapo meaning shorty. His method of escape a tunnel that stretched all the way from his cell to nearly a mile from the prison walls. The tunnels, so elaborate, it featured stairs, ventilation, lighting and motorcycle track. Possibly to whisk him away to freedom. And this is not the first time that he has alluded authorities. Back in 2001 he escaped from prison by hiding in a laundry cart.

With every angle of this story covered, we begin with CNN correspondent Juan Carlos Lopez.

It is extraordinary. I was shocked to wake up to this news because it took authorities 13 years to track him down after he escaped in 2001. They just threw him back in jail last year. Now he is gone again. Walk us through how he did this.

JUAN CARLOS LOPEZ, CNN EN ESPANOL CORRESPONDENT: Twice from maximum security prisons, Poppy. And today, the official version according to the Mexican authorities is that they didn't see him through the video surveillance. They had monitored him 24 hours a day. They got suspicious, they went to his cell. He was in a super max tight area where he did not have contact with other prisoners, where he did not roam freely but they found a hole in the shower. And through that hole he was able to escape to a construction site, a home that was under construction. It was a big tunnel. And that's how he got out.

HARLOW: And when you look at his ability to rule the cartel, the drug cartel, the Sinaloa Cartel, that has been responsible for so much destruction in Mexico and in the United States, he was even able to do that from isolation within prison. LOPEZ: That surprised me today as we were reading, everyone was

talking about him as still the leader of the Sinaloa Carter, and he still wielded the influence. I was reading that there was a hunger strike in that maximum security prison. And it wasn't only him. It was most of the prisoners. But according to the different media versions, he was the one who organized it with another high-ranking drug lord in that prison. They're supposed to be isolated but they're communicating and they're giving orders.

HARLOW: And before I let you go, 18 people right now from that prison being questioned by police on corruption concerns?

LOPEZ: Yes, at least 18 workers were transferred to Mexico City. They're being interrogated. President Enrique Pena Nieto has called for an investigation to try to determine if government officials were involved in this escape plan. But it's just very surprising that only prison guards would be involved in an escape plan that had a tunnel go from a house to the shower in his cell in a maximum security prison. This is going to be an interesting one.

HARLOW: Can't make this stuff up. It is unbelievable. Thank you so much, Juan Carlos Lopez.

LOPEZ: OK.

HARLOW: Let's talk more about this with Aram Roston, he's an investigative reporter from Buzz Feed.

You have a very unique perspective, sir, on this because a few years ago, you had dinner with an important figure in the Sinaloa Cartel's drug running operations, who worked directly for El Chapo. What shocked you the most about what he had to say about this man?

ARAM ROSTON, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER, BUZZFEED NEWS: Well, the astonishing thing to me was that -- he said the Sinaloa Cartel, Chapo Guzman, managed to place agents into U.S. -- well, to place informants into ICE and into DEA to get them information that they wanted the federal agencies to know to knock off Chapo's enemies. That's what astonished me the most. That they were able to play the game of espionage so well against U.S. law enforcement.

HARLOW: It tells us a lot about the sophistication of the cartel and the people that worked with him. So talk to me about the help you think he had from the outside to somehow escape through this tunnel so elaborate that it was lit and filled with oxygen tanks.

ROSTON: That's all speculation on my part. But it is well known that his organization has immense experience in tunnel building. That's their expertise. He specialized in designing these huge, well ventilated, brilliantly engineered tunnels to go from Mexico to the United States undetected. So this is his expertise. He's also got, as we know, massive amounts of money.

HARLOW: Right.

ROSTON: And I'm not sure that many people are that astonished that he got away this time. Remember, the people who caught him were Mexican Marines.

HARLOW: Right.

ROSTON: They are known to be allied with the DEA and so forth and less susceptible to corruption. But all bets are off when it comes to a lot of other agencies down there.

HARLOW: So what happens this time? Because, you know, the United States obviously on the record as saying we're going to do everything we can. We're going to help. Look, we had members of Congress warning this could happen again. You should extradite him to the United States so that we can have him in our maximum security prisons and try him here.

[18:05:16] What happens now? Is the U.S. going to just put all these resources once again into tracking him down for years and years?

ROSTON: I'm sure they will. I mean, they -- prior to this, they had planes flying over Mexico, they had -- we had DEA task forces down there, we had all sorts of resources. He's got indictments across this country that no one is going to let go. But does that mean there's going to be easier to catch him the next time? And the next time he's presumably going to avoid the traps that caught him this time. And I mean, everybody suspects he'll go right back to his home base, the Sinaloa region.

HARLOW: What did U.S. law enforcement tell you as you were reporting this out before? What's the most challenging part of this for them, for tracking him down?

ROSTON: Often it was, of course, that they were challenged by their concerns about the integrity of their Mexican counterparts. And that's no secret, right. The concerns about corruption down in Mexico are well known. That said, they also -- the challenge for them was he was known to be hiding in Sinaloa, in areas that he had immense popular support in. And they could never get -- over and over again, they would almost get him.

HARLOW: Right.

ROSTON: He always seemed to be ahead of the curve. And that was not -- that was not a secret to U.S. law enforcement. They believed he had protection.

HARLOW: Yes, they would say, I was reading when the heat was coming, someone always told him. He had a lot of people around him that wanted to protect him and liked him a whole lot.

Aram Roston, thank you very much.

ROSTON: Thank you, Poppy.

HARLOW: Gerardo Rodriguez joining me now from Mexico City. He is a professor of National Security at the University of the Americas Puebla. Thank you for being here, Professor. When you look at it, the

president of Mexico just releasing a statement saying security at all prisons will be raised. He has ordered an investigation into whether public servant, right, people working at the prison or elsewhere were involved, whether there was corruption. Will they find that he had help on the inside? Is it rampart there?

PROF. GERARDO RODRIGUEZ, UNIVERSIDAD DE LAS AMERICAS PUEBLA: The first thing is it's a shame for President Pena. His escape is most serious embarrassment for President Enrique Pena in his first year in administration. Chapo Guzman was known for actions. And he was part of the anniversary of independence of the Revolution of France -- the announcement of this embarrassment is one of the most on the war on drugs (INAUDIBLE).

HARLOW: All right. Professor Gerardo Rodriguez, we're having technical difficulty. Hard time hearing you over Skype. But again he's saying this is the biggest embarrassment for the president of Mexico. Obviously, all the resources there now focused on tracking this man down.

Thank you very much, Professor. We appreciate it.

Well, the weekend that started with optimism that Greece could save its place within the European Union is ending with yet another deadline for a potential third bailout. We'll talk about it next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:12:11] HARLOW: Greece has yet another deadline to prove that it can be trusted and should remain a part of the Eurozone and that it deserves a third bailout. This as the country of Greece is running out of money, unable to even keep its own banks open.

CNN's Richard Quest live tonight in Brussels. It is after midnight. The Finance ministers, they are still meeting, still trying to hash something out.

I know, Richard, a proposal from the Finance ministers has been leaked. What's the headline on the proposal?

RICHARD QUEST, CNN BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT: I think the headline -- there are two really, and the first is that Greece to get even to negotiations, never mind the actual amount of money, which is best part of $100 billion that they're asking for, $100 billion. Just to get to negotiations, they will have to pass a raft of laws within three days. It would be a Herculean task to get it done. But that's what the Europeans are asking.

And the second controversial clause is the last one if they accept it in the document which is a failure to reach agreement will lead to swift negotiations for a timeout from the euro area. In other words, a temporary Grexit. Now we've been told that Grexit or temporary or otherwise, was not on the cards tonight but it seems very much that the other European countries have had enough. They all admit to a person, to a man, a woman that there's a lack of trust over Greece's ability to implement change. Its willingness and capability to do so. And this is the bottom line.

HARLOW: Richard, if do we see a Grexit, even a temporary one, what do you think that means big picture for the Euro project? Because you have other countries that may not be as on the brink as Greece but then have major debt issues. You have Portugal, you have Spain. What does it mean for the entire European Union?

QUEST: Well, the mere fact that they are -- they have put this into a document for a project that was supposedly irrevocable.

HARLOW: Right.

QUEST: The original Hotel California, you can check in but never leave. The mere fact that they are now saying this is a possibility, not even maybe. A probability. It speaks volumes because you -- whether the markets choose to gang up on one country or another, it doesn't really matter. The real point is the citizens of any country now can see that it would be possible to leave. And so all those other countries that may have euro doubt or be suffering from austerity suddenly it becomes an option. Albeit a difficult one.

HARLOW: Yes.

QUEST: An option way down the road. Certainly not easy but it is an option on the table.

HARLOW: The most used hashtag in Greece right now on Twitter is, quote, "This is a coup." People are denouncing there what they're calling anti-democratic move, a move to try to humiliate Greece. This places Prime Minister Tsipras in quite a bind.

[18:15:17] QUEST: They shouldn't be surprised. I just spent the last two weeks in Athens. And they should not have been surprised. They were warned about this. Before last Sunday's referendum it was made clear by Juncker, it was made clear by Merkel, it was made clear by everybody that if they voted no, that the terms were going to be harder and harsher, and that' exactly what has happened.

The economy is in a much worse state because the banks have been closed. Put it all together and yes, they will feel humiliated. They will feel partly done by. The question is, do they take it out on Europe? Or they take it out on Tsipras? At the moment I'll give you one final example, coming through the airport yesterday, a woman said to me in one of the shops, she said, he's done wonders for us. I said but the deal is worse. She says no, it's not, no, it's not.

Now I'm bound to telling people that their VAT increased, that they've got a worse deal as a result of what happens seems to make any difference.

HARLOW: Yes.

QUEST: They believe at the moment, many of them, in what's being done is for the best.

HARLOW: They believe in him in an extraordinary way. And the referendum certainly pointed that out with all of those no votes.

Richard Quest live in Brussels. He will keep us posted on what comes of it. Thank you, Richard.

Turning gears now. Donald Trump says he is in it to win it. It is not farfetched. Does he have the momentum to really turn this into a long-lasting movement? We'll also talk about what is fuelling his meteoric rise in the polls.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:20:31] HARLOW: Well, he's been in the race for less than a month but Donald Trump has upended an already crowded field of big named candidates drawing thousands to an event yesterday in Phoenix where he hammered him his hardlined views on illegal immigration and whether it his rhetoric or his star power, or his proposals, he is resonating.

He's also polling second in New Hampshire behind Jeb Bush. That's according to this CNN-WMUR poll. He's also in a tight race near the top in Iowa, ties for second in the Quinnipiac University survey of likely caucus goers.

Let's talk about it with David Gergen, a former White House adviser to four presidents, also CNN senior political analyst.

David, I have to read you this. Just moments ago Donald Trump tweeted this. "Mexico's biggest drug lord escapes from jail. Unbelievable corruption. And USA is paying the price. I told you so."

His campaign seems to have what others lack. That is energy and enthusiasm. Is this someone who can win the nomination?

DAVID GERGEN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: I wouldn't have said so three months ago. But today, you know, you never can tell. I don't think he will. There are other polls that show him more than half of Republicans disapprove of Donald Trump all together. Even within the Tea Party which is his great strength. That one out of five Tea Partiers thinks he will not -- you know, only one out of five people think he could win and will win the nomination. So I think it's a very uphill battle. But he is the hottest thing out there right now. Isn't he, Poppy?

HARLOW: Yes. He -- yes.

GERGEN: And this Guzman escape in Mexico plays right into his hands. That's what's a little bit unbelievable about this. Because here's he's been arguing, you know, forcefully that the Mexicans send drugs and they send crime into the United States. And people think that's bigotry on his part. And there has been a lot of bigotry there. But here Guzman gets -- escapes. It's good news a guy who faces indictment in seven different federal courts here in the United States for drug trafficking and murder.

HARLOW: Yes.

GERGEN: We wanted him back. The United States wanted him back. We wanted the Mexicans to send him to us. And they said no, we'll take care of him. We'll protect him, and so for and so on. Just two years ago. And here he is. He's free and who knows where he is. But we do know that it plays right into Donald Trump's hands.

HARLOW: You almost couldn't write it better for Donald Trump in terms of just --

GERGEN: Exactly.

HARLOW: But, you know, he said in a statement that just came out. I respect Mexico. They can't help it if our politicians are so incompetent. That things like this can continually take place. But I do -- I do want to switch gears in terms of his donations.

GERGEN: Sure.

HARLOW: Because look, up until 2012, he was still giving money to Democrats. Look at these numbers, right? In 2006 he gave $5,000 to Harry Reid's Senate fundraising. He's given a lot to Hillary Clinton. He gave $20,000 to Nancy Pelosi's fundraising arm in the House. New York Senator Charles Schumer, $100,000 to the Clinton Foundation.

Will party faithfuls that vote in the primary accept that? Will they accept that and vote for him?

GERGEN: I don't think that will be the big issue for a party faithful. They think the man -- he is a celebrity. But, you know, he's a wildcard. He says things in a reckless way from the point of view of a lot of middle-of-the-road kind of people in the Republican Party. And at the end of the day, I just think he's going to -- he's likely to flame out.

There is this outside possibility, Poppy. I don't know whether this will work or not. But he could run potentially as an independent.

HARLOW: Right.

GERGEN: A Ross Perot like campaign. And that could be trouble for both parties. You wouldn't know how that would work at the end of the day. Remember Perot came very close at one point.

HARLOW: Right.

GERGEN: There is a populism movement out there that Trump is tapping into. People are frustrated. They're angry with the federal government. Think the politicians are weak. We see his populism rising around the world. And Trump is playing into it -- you know, from his point of view he's playing it masterfully. So far he's a very smart fellow. I don't think he'll get the nomination, but I do think he's going to shake up this race. You know, and these debates, a lot more people are going to tune in when CNN has a debate. You have Trump out there.

HARLOW: Yes.

GERGEN: In the crowd. HARLOW: Yes.

GERGEN: You know what's going to happen to the audience.

HARLOW: Yes. It's a good point. I want to switch gears here and talk about a woman certainly in the headlines this week and recently.

GERGEN: Sure.

HARLOW: South Carolina Governor Nikki Haley. She is getting a lot of positive attention for how she handled the Confederate flag controversy. She has been described as a, quote, "once riding star who's shine had faded after that 2010 gubernatorial victory and has emerged from the flag battle as the face of the new south."

[18:25:06] Is this someone, A, that the party needs, a non-white female voice, and B, potentially looking at her as a running mate?

GERGEN: I do think she goes onto the short list now of potential running mates after she handled the Confederate flag issue and the killings as well as she did. She brought the state and legislator along and got that done. And she handled it well. And if the Republican Party is going to have to worry whether Donald Trump is going to in fact paint it with a brush that is anti, you know, is anti-Mexican and it doesn't stand for diversity, she could help overcome that.

But here's her issue. She comes from a state that's extremely safe for Republicans.

HARLOW: Right.

GERGEN: They don't need Nikki Haley to win South Carolina. They need somebody to help with an Ohio, and a Florida and the swing states.

HARLOW: Right. But she's certainly much more on the national radar now.

GERGEN: Yes. Yes.

HARLOW: For the state. I do have to ask about a big name.

GERGEN: Sure.

HARLOW: Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker, because he joins the race officially tomorrow. Some look at him as someone who they may look at him as accomplishing a lot but also someone that doesn't always fill the room with personality as one analyst said, or blow you away. And in the face of a Trump, what is that -- how do you reconcile that?

GERGEN: You know, he's going to get overshadowed here in the next 24 hours by the Guzman story, the Trump story. And Hillary is giving a big speech and we may have announcement out of the end of tomorrow on the Iranian talks which are going to swamp everything. And -- you know, so it's going to be hard for him to get the attention. But don't count him out. He was a really strong top tier person earlier on. He faded a little bit. But he's got an opportunity to come back now.

It's very early. So I think he's still very much in contention. And Iowa, of course, first state out of the box. He'll probably win that.

HARLOW: All right. David Gergen, stay with me.

GERGEN: OK.

HARLOW: Quick break, we're going to talk a lot more about Donald Trump and politics ahead. Also, the influence that he's having on the Republican Party. But next, a former drug smuggler gives us an inside look at a cartel's empire and why these criminal syndicates are powerful and so hard to stop even when you throw their leader in prison.

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[18:31:12] HARLOW: All right. Mexico's most powerful drug lord, El Chapo -- that is the nickname he goes by -- is right now on the loose after breaking out last night from a maximum security prison for the second time.

This escape comes just a year after he was finally captured and paraded in front of cameras after 13 years on the run. Last year, CNN's Nick Parker got to peer into the tunnels and the safe house that kept El Chapo out of the hands of police for so long.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

NICK PARKER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: On this quiet residential street in the Sinaloa state capital of Culiacan, with a school just across the street, is one of five of Chapo Guzman's safe houses. We're going inside to take a look.

(Voice-over): Before even entering, cameras and reinforced steel door reveals a priority of security.

(On camera): I think one of the first things that really hits you when you come in is just how modest and basic it is. You know, a small little kitchen, some of the bedrooms here are pretty dingy. The Marines tell us this was part of his strategy, to have a very modest accommodations that he could hide in plain sight. In almost every bedroom of the house, there are two TV screens, one for security and one for TV.

But when you go in the bathroom, the picture of a normal house really does transform. Beneath this bathtub, a secret tunnel. So if you climb down the steps, you find yourself in the tunnel itself. And you can see it's been quite carefully constructed out of wood. You have to crouch a little bit, but you're quite mobile. And there's an electricity system running throughout it.

The nearest other safe house from here is three kilometers in this direction. The constructed part of the tunnel ends here and if you go through this door, you find yourself in the sewage system of Culiacan, an ideal escape route. And the tunnel system comes out right here in another safe house just down the road. And as you can see, it is very similar setup to the previous one.

(Voice-over): In all the houses, evidence of life suddenly suspended. The minutia is often interesting. A child's slide, Christmas decorations, and a fondness for mayonnaise.

(On camera): This safe house is perhaps the most significant of all of them. This is where Chapo Guzman escaped from when he was being pursued by Mexican Marines. They broke down this door and found they had missed him by eight minutes. And this is where he fled to through this bedroom and into this bathroom where, as you can see, there is another escape hatch underneath this bathtub.

Mexican Marines tell us they discovered this entire network of underground tunnels and safe houses when they arrested the head of Chapo Guzman's security and he gave them this information. It once again underlines the very central role of intelligence in the arrests of one of the world's most-wanted men.

Nick Parker, CNN, Culiacan, Mexico.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HARLOW: Wow. Extraordinary to see that. Nick, thank you.

Let's talk about this more with Brian O'Dea. He's actually a former international drug smuggler. He is now a TV host and producer.

Brian, we just watched this piece showing the cartel safe house, the tunnels, how elaborate it all is. Do you think that this and then El Chapo's second escape proves how far behind the cartels law enforcement seems to consistently be?

BRIAN O'DEA, FORMER INTERNATIONAL DRUG SMUGGLER: Oh my wood. I was laughing actually. It's extraordinary. Here's a guy who's proved time and again that he can build a hole in the ground, OK. If they're not looking at every single piece of soil that surrounds wherever they had that guy locked up, then they don't have the willingness. And obviously they don't.

You know, the technology exists today to detect these tunnels being bored under the ground. It's simple, it's inexpensive. And you just mount it on a pole and you aim at the earth and you can tell if there's activity underground.

I just don't think there's a willingness there. You know, it's money. Isn't it? These guys -- Guzman has houses -- I mean, one wonders what his motivation is, but there are houses that are just filled with money that that guy has.

HARLOW: Yes.

O'DEA: And that money is not doing anything but a burden to hold. And if he's locked up, I'm sure they're carrying a chunk of that money out and distributing it in a way that effectively springs him, which it did. HARLOW: Well, that's what I wanted to ask you because you've talked a

lot about how not only he but these drug cartels do a lot to help local schools, people in need, sort of this Robin Hood-esque thing that helps them when they need to know if police are nearby. It really helps them because they're giving more money, say, to these people than the government is.

O'DEA: Well, it's certainly the case -- it's frequently the case and that's a shame, isn't it? I mean, we turned over the distribution of drugs, the weakest among us, to criminal gangs, and it seems as though we've turned whole communities and the welfare of those communities to those (INAUDIBLE) gangs.

Listen, when there's billions of dollars floating around under every table that it can get it green paws on, you know it's floating around under the biggest tables as well as many small ones. And it taints everybody. And I've got to believe the taint is really deeply embedded in Mexican government because sometimes some things don't seem to change.

HARLOW: How --

O'DEA: So there's one way to defeat it all of course is to legalize all drugs and then it will all go away.

HARLOW: I -- we know that --

O'DEA: I'm sorry.

HARLOW: We know that is your position. You've been very vocal about it. I want to ask you, finally, how does it change the smuggling problem now that he is out? Meaning this cartel was still operating while he was in isolation, behind bars in this maximum security facility. Does it change the game in terms of drugs more and more getting in the United States over the border because he's out now?

O'DEA: No.

HARLOW: No.

O'DEA: No. Not a bit. As a matter of fact, it probably will diminish the flow somewhat because I've got to imagine it's a huge distraction now to hide that character. And that takes a lot of manpower and a lot of mobility and a lot of energy that otherwise would be going to, you know, their normal game of drug distribution and ducking the law. Now they've got a huge magnet that they have to deal with.

HARLOW: Yes. All right, Brian O'Dea, good to have you on the program. Thank you.

O'DEA: Yes, Poppy. Thanks.

HARLOW: Good to be with you.

All right. Coming up next more on Donald Trump. His controversial comments may be fuelling his rise on the polls. But could they torpedo any chance of Republicans winning the White House in 2016?

We're going to talk about his impact on the Republican brand next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:41:46] HARLOW: Well, we have talked about Donald Trump's effect on American politics in the presidential field. But what about his potential impact on the Republican brand.

Martha Pease is here, she's a brand expert, the CEO of DemandWerks. She's also the co-author of Think Round. Joining us again from Boston, CNN senior political analyst and adviser to four presidents, David Gergen.

Guys, let's start with this. Some comments from Carly Fiorina, another 2016 presidential hopeful, when she was asked this week why Donald Trump has made such a splash in this race. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)