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Interview With South Carolina Governor Nikki Haley; OPM Director Resigns; Confederate Flag Comes Down; New Info in Charleston Shootings. Aired 3-3:30p ET

Aired July 10, 2015 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[15:00:00]

CAROL HEISS JENKINS, OLYMPIC GOLD MEDALIST: And I think having all of this publicity with it and for the world to see it, much less all of the United States, it gives us all a belief that we can, you know, have a dream come true if we work and we're determined and persevere.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: Amen. And I love seeing all the little girls and the little boys along that route today in New York.

I wish I had 10 more minutes with you both. For now, I just have to say thank you both, Michelle Akers and Carol Heiss Jenkins. Appreciate it.

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

BALDWIN: All right, we go to continue on, breaking news into us here at CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

This is what we're learning out of South Carolina now. Three weeks after that massacre inside that historic black church in Charleston, a symbol used by the killer has been lowered from the state House grounds, the Confederate Flag and the flagpole ceremoniously removed for the final time.

But here's the news right now. As all of this was happening, the FBI was owning up to a potentially tragic mistake in all of this. Here's what we know. It turns out that shooter, Dylann Roof, should never have been able to buy that gun in the first place, a paperwork mixup allowing him to buy the weapon he used to murder nine innocent churchgoers.

Let me bring in, first, Pamela Brown, our justice correspondent.

The FBI director, James Comey, saying -- quote -- "We are all sick this happened."

How did this happen?

PAMELA BROWN, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: That's a good question, Brooke.

And the FBI director, James Comey, sitting down with reporters today talking about this, the fact that the man who confessed to gunning down the nine people inside the South Carolina church should never have been able to buy that .45-caliber gun that he used to kill them. The director said basically it's the FBI's fault.

There were a series of errors he talked about and it all started with the background check system, a clerical error in the background check system and then confusion with some paperwork. So bottom line here, Brooke, is that the FBI examiner doing the paperwork never made the discovery that Dylann Roof, back in late February, had admitted to Columbia police that he had possessed drugs.

Had the examiner made that discovery, Dylann Roof would have been denied the ability to purchase the gun. He wouldn't have passed a background check. Bottom line, the FBI examiner did not make contact with the Columbia Police Department who arrested him late February because of a series of errors that the director talked about, not just with the FBI, but also in the system itself.

As you know, the FBI runs the background check system, but there were issues with the way that the police department reported the arrest and so forth. So it was really a combination, as he said, of improbable factors that came together that led to this really devastating result here.

We asked him today, when did he come to this conclusion? Because you may remember before the FBI had said that nothing was done improper with the background check. So this is obviously a contradiction of that. Director Comey said that last night, after reviewing all of the facts, he said he reached this conclusion and he wanted to own up to it and talk to reporters. He's ordered a 30-day review to see what can be fixed to make sure this never happens again -- Brooke.

BALDWIN: Yes, this bombshell just leaves some more questions. We know you will be asking them. Pamela Brown, thank you.

BROWN: Thank you.

BALDWIN: Turning back to this major moment this morning, the Confederate Flag being removed there at the state capitol in South Carolina.

Listen, not everyone has happy to see it go. Some on site booing. We're told others turned their backs in protest. But most of all, people were there cheering and singing "God Bless America."

After the ceremony here, folks started tweeting their reaction to this moment, including President Barack Obama, who tweeted this. "South Carolina taking down the Confederate Flag, a symbol of goodwill and healing and a meaningful step towards a better future."

Let's go to my colleague Don Lemon, who is there in Columbia, South Carolina.

DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: And friend.

BALDWIN: You were there. You were -- and friend.

LEMON: Yes, and friend.

BALDWIN: You were for the removal this morning. But we have to talk about this big interview, the governor of South Carolina.

LEMON: Yes.

BALDWIN: What did Nikki Haley tell you?

LEMON: And we will talk about that.

But here's what I want to say. That's why I said and friend, because we are friends. And I wish I could have shared this moment with all of my friends and all of my loved ones. I know you got to watch it on television, but this was a moment for America, I believe, especially sons and daughters of the South, for people who have been under the oppression, under this oppressive flag for all of their lives.

That's why I said and friend. That's why I wanted to share that with you, Brooke, because it was moving.

[15:05:03]

LEMON: And look behind me. It's gone. The flagpole is gone. The flag is gone. And they just removed the pole just moments ago.

And so I would say it's the end of an era and the beginning of a better era, not only for the South, but also for the United States of America. And that's what I spoke to the governor about, who said that she's a changed person as well and she talked to me about growing up here in the South.

Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

LEMON: So, Governor, you will remember where you were on July 10, 2015. You presided over history. What does that mean to you?

GOV. NIKKI HALEY (R), SOUTH CAROLINA: You know, this is a surreal moment. Standing out there and watching that flag come down, it felt like the biggest weight was lifted off the state.

It just felt so -- it's like the state -- it's a true new day in South Carolina. It feels like a new day in South Carolina.

LEMON: You have said this -- and I don't know if it's in the exact words -- but you evolved on this, because you weren't always on the side of taking this down. But you said I think it takes a big person to change their mind.

(CROSSTALK)

HALEY: It wasn't that I wasn't for taking it down.

First of all, South Carolina very much respects history, respects tradition. And so the flag has just always been up there. When I came into office, to have a two-thirds vote threshold was a huge one and it's not a Republican, Democrat, white, black. There hadn't been a bill filed to bring that flag down since 2007.

There was so much of a divide and so much hurt in the compromise of 2000 that no one wanted to talk about it. So it was almost like people just assumed it was going to be there.

LEMON: Yes. You have used the words in the signing of this bill, you said tradition, you said history, you said respect and love and forgiveness. It has to have been hard to strike a balance because not everyone was on the side that you were on.

HALEY: It's important for people to know what it's like to be in another person's shoes.

And if you watched the legislative debate, that's what happened. People put themselves in each other's shoes, so they understood what the respect of tradition and heritage was and that it wasn't about hate.

But the other side also learned how painful that flag was and the pain that it was causing people. That's what brought South Carolina to this new day, was the ability to look at each other and listen and say it's time.

LEMON: You're an immigrant, your family. You grew up here.

HALEY: Born and raised in South Carolina, but the daughter of Indian parents.

LEMON: Does it mean more to you, does it make you more connected to this issue? Do you have a special feeling about it?

HALEY: You know, we grew up an Indian family in a small town in South Carolina. My father wears a turban. My mother at the time wore a sari. It was hard growing up in South Carolina.

But what I have always been proud of and what I have worked towards is to make sure that today is better than yesterday and that my kids don't go through what we went through. And now I feel good because now I know my kids can look up and there won't be a flag and it will be one less reason to divide. And it will more reasons for us to come together.

LEMON: Now, as I understand, you went up and looked over at the flag in the capitol this morning and it was important for you to do that. Why?

HALEY: I just needed to see it one last time. I wanted to remember the moment. So much of this has been a whirlwind over the last several weeks. And it's been extremely emotional. But I just needed to see what was about to happen.

LEMON: This flag went up in 1962, correct? Do you think it was a sort of poke in the eye to the civil rights movement?

HALEY: You know, I'm not going to try and figure out why people did what they did.

I think the more important part is it just never should have been there. And I think that even when it was on the grounds of the state House, it was right in front. And these grounds are a place that everybody should feel a part of. And these grounds are a place that should be -- that belong to the people of South Carolina. And what I have realized now more than ever is people were driving by and they felt hurt and pain.

No one should feel pain. You know, we can have our disagreements and we can have our policy back and forth, but no one should feel pain over something, not over a symbol.

LEMON: Fifty-seven percent of people -- and this is a CNN/ORC poll of Americans -- view the flag as a symbol of Southern pride and not racism. Is that surprising to you?

HALEY: No, because a lot of the people -- and if you had heard the debate in the state House, so many of them look at it as honoring ancestors who fought and died for their state. That's the way they look at it.

You look at people and this really is Confederate proponents, they are not haters. You have got people who will hijack it.

LEMON: Who uses the flag as a symbol of hate.

HALEY: Right.

But what we have to remember is that people are using it as a symbol of hate and it's something that causes people pain, because it's a reminder of a time that was painful. So what we have to do is remind the pro-Confederate citizens, look, we're not trying to take away your heritage, we're not trying to take away the family members that sacrificed.

[15:10:10]

What we are trying to do is not give people reason to hurt and we are all responsible for that. We all have to play a role in that.

LEMON: You're a public servant.

I think most people realize this, that the flag is just a piece of cloth, right, but it did represent to a lot of people pain, right, and hurt and pain. The way to continue, I have heard people say, the legacy or to better continue the legacy of Clementa Pinckney and for the issues that he fought for, how will you do that?

HALEY: I want to really focus on education. You know, you're going to see me -- I always did anti-bullying tours through schools.

Now I'm going to talk about race and now I want to talk about why we brought the flag down. I want to talk about why the Emanuel nine. So, I'm going to do that through our schools, because I think it's important for children to understand why they are still pure the goodness of all of that.

But, you know, there are going to be other things. We had actually started in South Carolina making many changes. We changed the way we fund education so that we acknowledge poverty, so now every child, regardless of where they live, deserves a good education and now can get one. We were the first state in the country to put a body cam bill.

There are certain things that we have done that have been a natural progression to this.

LEMON: You're going to talk about race now. Are you taking race as part of your platform? Is that going to be part of your platform now?

HALEY: I'm going to take bringing South Carolina together as part of my platform, that this should not be one day in time, that this should be the start of a conversation, which is why South Carolina handled it so gracefully.

Why did the citizens come together and not protest? What made South Carolina so special across this country that people said, wow, I want those kids to know that? Because they have got to carry that on. They now have to carry that forward.

LEMON: As you're out there today, as you went up and stood over the capitol this morning, the state House, and you looked out at the flag and you said you wanted to see it for the first time, but as you were with those families and you're hearing people yelling, bring down this flag, it's got to go, what are you thinking as a person who is leading the state and leading the ceremony?

HALEY: My thought was, I hope this gives those families a little bit of peace. That had always been my prayer, is that I hope this gives them some peace and I hope this allows our state to heal and I hope -- the grief of this tragedy is going to last for a really long time.

I don't see it going away anytime soon. But I hope this allows our state to come together and heal.

LEMON: Getting a shout-out from the president of the United States nationally, in a eulogy, are you concerned about that in a solidly red state? Does that help you or hurt you in South Carolina?

HALEY: No, I don't worry about that.

The act of bringing down this flag down was not a Republican or Democrat thing. It wasn't a black or white thing. If you look at the debate, you wouldn't have divided it along party lines or racial lines. People who wanted the flag down were all types of people.

If you look around the state, so many different people, young, old, wanted to see this happen. What I hope is that this happening in South Carolina sets the tone for the country, which is a tone of be kinder than necessary. Let's do more for each other. Let's not always fight over everything.

LEMON: Thank you, Governor.

HALEY: Thank you very much.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LEMON: Interesting, Republican governor here talking about, Brooke, making race, at least having a conversation about race as part of her platform, also echoing the sentiments of many people around the country, but also former President Bill Clinton yesterday saying that the people of South Carolina came together, black, white, different ethnicities and background and religions, different political parties coming together to get something accomplished and that's what they did.

You know, you don't -- I'm not an easy one to pull the wool over my eyes. I know people. And I can feel people and I know when they are not being honest and when they're being disingenuous. But I really do feel that the governor is a changed person because of the shootings, because of the deaths and also because of how people came together here and also having to stand up to her own party for something that she felt really strongly about. She said that this changed her. I honestly do believe that it did.

BALDWIN: What an interview. What a month for the state of South Carolina and really the nation. Don Lemon, my friend, thank you.

Next, after one of the worst data breaches in U.S. history, a major resignation today amid a cloud of controversy here. We will get some reaction from the White House on this one next.

Also, an investigation after the pilot of a major airline allegedly tried to flush bullets down the airplane toilet mid-flight. What? That's coming up.

And just stunning images of a backdraft explosion caught on camera just as a firefighter was walking into a home. Fortunately, no one was hurt.

[15:15:01]

We will talk to that firefighter, live, coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

The worst data breach in U.S. government history has cost millions their private data and now it's cost one Obama appointee her job.

The director of the Office of Personnel Management, Katherine Archuleta, has stepped down. Calls for her resignation spiked after lawmakers learned 22 million people were affected by that breach. That is more than five times the original amount reported.

House Speaker Boehner said in a statement Thursday he had "no confidence in Archuleta repairing the problem," but the White House stood by her until this afternoon.

[15:20:05]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOSH EARNEST, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: Director Archuleta did offer her resignation today. She did so of her own volition. She recognizes, as the White House does, that the current challenges currently facing the Office of Personnel Management require a manager with a specialized set of skills and experiences. That's precisely why the president has accepted her resignation.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Let me bring in our justice correspondent, Evan Perez, with really my question.

Yesterday, the White House was standing by her and clearly today that changed. Fill in the gap for me.

EVAN PEREZ, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, actually, about exactly 24 hours ago, Archuleta was on a phone call, a conference call with reporters in which she said she wasn't going to design and the White House told me last night, late last night, Brooke, that they were standing behind her.

So today what changed was simply the fact that the facts were getting problematic for both this White House and for Archuleta. Questions were beginning to be raised, as how does someone -- this woman, her previous job was as a political director for the president's reelection campaign. How does she go from that job to this job at OPM, with is in charge of safeguarding the most sensitive personnel records that the U.S. government owns?

And so those questions were beginning to be asked. And, as you said, John Boehner, the speaker of the House, and others were beginning, including some Democrats, were asking for her to go. The facts are ugly on this one, Brooke. There are 22.1 million people who were affected, including 21.5 million background checks, 4.2 million people were affected in a secondary breach, and really the other thing here is that OPM had plenty of warning.

There were five hacks that OPM has suffered since the middle of 2012. There was plenty of notice that they had that they were troubles with their I.T. systems and they did not do enough to secure them. Now you have all of these millions of people who entrusted the government with some of their most intimate secrets in order to get security clearances and in order to be trusted with government secrets and they were betrayed really because the government did not safeguard their information.

BALDWIN: That's a lot of people, 22 million.

Evan Perez, thank you.

Next, we have to tell you this story about this pilot who allegedly tried to flush ammunition down a toilet of a plane, how this even got on board, why this is an issue. What will be done about it next?

Also ahead, George W. Bush and Bill Clinton appearing together on one stage, which is rare in and of itself. But keep in mind, one brother, one wife running against each other for president in 2016, what these two said together on stage.

We will be back straight ahead with a Marine who had the honor of introducing both of them.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:27:03]

BALDWIN: The defense has rested in the trial of Colorado theater shooter James Holmes. This comes after 12 days of testimony, as jurors heard from mental health experts.

They all said that they believe Holmes was so mentally ill that he could not distinguish right from wrong at the time of the shooting there in Aurora, Colorado, three years ago. Holmes admits to the shootings, but he said he was suffering a "psychotic episode" at the time. He's pleaded not guilty by reason of insanity. Closing arguments are set to begin next Tuesday.

And the TSA is investigating an incident where a United Airlines captain reportedly flushed live ammunition down the toilet of an airplane. This jet was traveling last month from Houston to Munich, Germany. Officials say at first the pilot tossed them in the trash, but when a passenger found them, he flushed them down the toilet instead.

United will not release the pilot's name, but they tell us they're investigating and that the captain is still working for the airline.

CNN aviation and government regulation correspondent Rene Marsh is here to first explain to me why was there live ammo on a plane, period?

RENE MARSH, CNN AVIATION CORRESPONDENT: Well, Brooke, believe it or not, there are some pilots, including this captain, who are essentially authorized to carry a firearm and ammunition on board a flight, certain flights, though.

After September 11, there was this extra layer of security that was added, allowing pilots and flight crew who are trained by the TSA to carry guns on board flights, but only flights within the United States. The purpose is to defend against hijackers, terrorists. But -- here's the but and here's the problem for this guy -- guns and ammo are not allowed on international flights.

And, as you know, there are different countries that have different gun laws and it just so happens Germany has some of the strictest in Europe and that was the problem for this captain, who had ammo in his bag. Investigators believe that perhaps he may have had this from a previous flight, forgot and then when he realized tried to dispose of it. BALDWIN: So, if, you know, this is a total no-no in Germany and he's

chucking these bullets and he's still employed and there was nothing nefarious about this, it was just a mistake, might he face charges, or not?

MARSH: The TSA right now, they're looking into this.

We know that they could, the TSA could decide, look, we're going to hit the captain with a civil penalty or they may even decide to strip him of his privilege to carry a gun and ammo on board. Clearly, he is not following what the rules are, forgetting whether he forgot or not.

But the extent of this really looks at and really speaks to intent. If they determine that this was an honest mistake, he may not face any criminal charges. We do know that, when he landed in Germany, he self-reported to the authorities. He told them exactly what happened. That's when they were able to go ahead and retrieve those bullets.

BALDWIN: All right. Rene Marsh, thank you.

MARSH: Sure.

BALDWIN: Next, two former presidents in a unique show here on stage together.