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Immigration Debate Reignited; Trump on Shooting; Confederate Flag Fight; Sweat Back in Prison. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired July 6, 2015 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[14:00:11] BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: All right, Brianna Keilar, thank you so much.

Great to be with you on this Monday. I'm Brooke Baldwin. This is CNN.

So, you might think you have heard all the arguments with regard to the immigration debate, but a tragic story out of northern California has reignited that discussion in ways perhaps you have not imagined. Kate Steinle was out for a walk with her father Wednesday on a pier in San Francisco, broad daylight, a popular tourist area, lots and lots of people around, when she was shot and killed.

The suspect is this man. This is Juan Francisco Lopez Sanchez, an undocumented immigrant with multiple previous felonies on his record, deported to Mexico five times in the past. He was in police custody as recently as April, but he was released because San Francisco is a so- called sanctuary city. It is a policy not to detain people suspected of immigration violations -- we're going to get more into that in a second - even if the federal government would like them to.

So let me first bring in my colleague Sara Sidner who is live in San Francisco, just on more of this because what's incredible is this man has spoken with a local reporter in San Francisco. He admits to shooting her. Did he explain how he got the gun?

SARA SIDNER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: He did. He talked about how he found the gun wrapped up in a t-shirt, he claims. What we do not know at this time is whether or not he has confessed to police, but he certainly talked to a local reporter about what happened and why he fired the gun. Let me let you listen to that first before we talk about some of the other issues that this has brought up.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REPORTER: Did you shoot Kate Steinle, the lady who was down on Pier 14?

SANCHEZ: Yes.

REPORTER: You did shoot her?

SANCHEZ: Uh-huh.

REPORTER: Where did you get the gun? SANCHEZ: In the ground. When the - when the - over there in the bench.

Um, um, I put my leg and I see the one t-shirt and then see over there something like that (ph). Then suddenly I heard the boom, boom, three times.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SIDNER: Now he reportedly told police that he was actually shooting at sea lions at one point. Says that he absolutely didn't mean to shoot anybody and that he should be given the maximum punishment.

We should also let you know that there is a memorial of flowers that is on the spot where Kate Steinle was shot and killed. It's a really, really difficult story, especially, of course, for the family who is still dealing with that searing pain of loss. They are not talking about the political ramifications of this, Brooke. What they are really talking about is who she was and the fact that this hurts them so much, they're trying to get through the grief at this hour.

BALDWIN: As we are mindful of this family, let me just follow-up with this. Did, at any point in that conversation, did the suspect, Sanchez, in speaking with that local reporter, he mentioned specifically one of the reasons why he was in San Francisco was because it was this so-called sanctuary city.

SIDNER: Yes, he did. He was asked about it specifically. Why did he come back to San Francisco again. And, remember, that he had been deported five times and federal authorities say he would have been deported a sixth time had San Francisco authorities not let him out of jail without notifying the immigration services here. However, San Francisco has said, look, we were following the law as we know it. There was a federal judge that struck down local authorities holding onto suspects for deportation without a court order which San Francisco said it didn't have.

However, he said that, yes, he came back to San Francisco because, number one, he was looking for work and, number two, he knew that this was a sanctuary city, a city that wouldn't easily deport him. And so this is why he chose this place. But again, he has said to a local reporter that he did accidently shoot Steinle and that he should be given the maximum punishment.

Brooke.

BALDWIN: Sara Sidner, thank you so much, in San Francisco.

Listen, this case has a lot of people very upset, angry, saddened, first of all, of course, about taking this innocent life, but there are other angles to this as well, the ongoing issues with federal immigration policy. As she was just referencing, the so-called sanctuary cities that refuse to comply with some federal immigration laws. And then there's the whole political angle. Donald Trump, the perhaps we'll call it the "I told you so moment" from one perspective. Listen, yes, he is weighing in on this case calling Steinle's death, quote, "senseless and totally preventable" and proof that the U.S. needs a much tougher approach to illegal immigration. So let me bring in Raul Reyes, an attorney and immigration analyst -

RAUL REYES, ATTORNEY AND IMMIGRATION ANALYST: Thank you.

BALDWIN: And Mel Robbins, CNN commentator and legal analyst.

So, great to have both of you here.

Mel, to you first, just on this sanctuary city notion. Do you think, if you have these cities that - I don't know if look the other way is the right way to put it or not, you know, enforce certain federal laws. Do you think that that incentivizes certain immigrants to flock to those cities, first of all?

[14:05:05] MEL ROBBINS, CNN COMMENTATOR & LEGAL ANALYST: Well, I think, Brooke, the answer is definitely yes. And let's - let's back up a minute, though, because we keep talking about all of this and it's collapsed into this major, complicated issue. Let me explain what sanctuary city actually means.

BALDWIN: Please.

ROBBINS: So, in terms of immigration, you can either have a warrant that is issued by an immigration judge, that is a legally binding instrument from the federal government and the immigration system that requires you to hold somebody in your custody, or you can have what we're talking about which are these I.C.E. holds which are a request -

BALDWIN: OK.

ROBBINS: That a local city hold on to somebody for an extra 48 hours just in case the immigration authorities would like to come speak to them. Now, here's why sanctuary cities exist. Number one, extremely costly. There was a study done in 2009, $65 million to taxpayers. That's the cost for holding people that the immigration would like to talk to. Also, there's the issue that this creates major distrust between an immigrant community and the police because they fear deportation.

And then, finally, there's this public safety problem. Now, it may sound weird that I'm saying that, but the reason why it's a public safety issue is if you create distrust, people are not going to cooperate with authorities. And so these are reasons why costs - also liability. If I hold you, Brooke, and I hold you over the constitutional limit and you sue me, San Francisco, we're liable.

BALDWIN: OK.

ROBBINS: That's why they do this.

BALDWIN: OK. But this is also, Raul, where you have the divide and the debate because you have, you know, some folks saying, listen, obviously, this is a case of somebody who had seven - seven felony convictions on his record -

REYES: Right. BALDWIN: Deported five times. Still made his way back up here. A criminal.

REYES: Uh-huh.

BALDWIN: Then you have the folks who are relatively law abiding, would like to be here, seek better lives in another camp, right?

REYES: Uh-huh.

BALDWIN: So you have both sides. Law enforcement, you could argue, should perhaps focus more on the criminals.

REYES: Uh-huh.

BALDWIN: What say you?

REYES: Well, I think there is some - a lot of misinformation and confusion arising from the term - just from the very term of sanctuary cities. Because also, to pick up on your point, one thing about sanctuary cities, it doesn't mean that immigration law is not enforced in those cities. It's not as though undocumented immigrants in a place like San Francisco are not deported or they just - or that it's some type of haven or they get a free pass to be there. It just means that the state and local authorities are not going to, in effect, act as immigration agents. That it still - they require the federal government to enforce immigration law.

And it's interesting because the whole notion of sanctuary cities, it came from law enforcement because, as you said, police don't like it. Local another don't like it. And another reason that they don't like it is because they're not trained in that. So you have the liability and the (ph) cost (ph) issue (ph).

BALDWIN: But then the other side of the camp would say, well, they're just not doing their job.

REYES: Right. But historically and also legally, immigration enforcement is the province of the federal government. You know that's always been the case.

ROBBINS: Under the Tenth Amendment.

REYES: And the Supreme Court has recently upheld it.

ROBBINS: Well, let's - let's take a look at this particular case.

BALDWIN: OK.

ROBBINS: Brooke, he was in federal custody. What was he serving time for? For a felony. What was the felony? Because he had returned after being deported.

BALDWIN: Right.

ROBBINS: Now, when that sentence was over, if the federal government were that interested in deporting him, don't you think they would have put a hold on him when he was in federal custody? No, they didn't.

REYES: And they could have - they - and they could have put a warrant and the city would have been required to hold him.

BALDWIN: And that wasn't done?

ROBBINS: And it wasn't done.

BALDWIN: And that wasn't done.

REYES But they did not. So, in a way, you could actually argue that cases like this are an argument against our - the type of immigration we have right now, which casts such a broad net, it lets dangerous individuals like him go free, fall through the cracks, while the government is chases after gardeners and maids and people like that.

BALDWIN: But you can understand -

ROBBINS: Of course.

BALDWIN: But that you don't have to agree with it, but here we've been talking, we've been playing practically on loop some of these sound bytes from Donald Trump.

REYES; Yes.

BALDWIN: This is a - for the Donald Trumps of the world, an "I told you so" moment in one regard.

REYES: Oh, of course.

BALDWIN: But I want to play some sound because this is Jeb Bush responding to this over the weekend, specifically to Trump's derogatory remarks. He joined other Republicans hopefuls breaking with what Trump had said. Roll it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JEB BUSH (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: This is a guy who was a Democrat for most of the last decade. I don't think he represents the Republican Party. And his views are way out of the mainstream of what Republicans think. No one suggests that we shouldn't control our borders. I mean everybody has a belief that we should control our borders. But to make these extraordinarily ugly kind of comments is not reflective of the Republican Party. Trump is wrong on this.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Trump is wrong. Trump is also polling quite well.

REYES: Yes.

BALDWIN: He is polling quite well and he, again, said, of course, this death was senseless and it is proving, as he would say, his point. How - what would you say to Donald Trump? REYES: I would say to Donald Trump, well, first of all, he's not an

immigration expert other than the fact that, you know, I think he married two immigrants. But I understand what Jeb Bush is saying about - certainly people are upset. This is a terrible tragedy. But, if anything, the Republican - I think some of these Republican candidates ought to consider this type of incident, it actually makes the case for President Obama's executive action on immigration, which right now is tied up in the courts. If we had something like that, it would allow our government to focus on felons, (INAUDIBLE), terrorist threats and not cast such a broad net. We haven't been doing that.

[14:10:22] I think anyone you talk to, on whatever side of the immigration debate you're on, I think most people will believe - will say that our system is totally dysfunctional right now. And as long as we stay with the status quo, it's going to remain that - you know, it will remain that way in the future.

BALDWIN: OK.

ROBBINS: Yes, I think actually that he's right, that it was senseless. And he's right that it was preventable. But he's dead wrong on how you actually fix it.

REYES: Right.

BALDWIN: Mel Robbins and Raul Reyes, thank you both very much.

REYES: Thank you.

BALDWIN: I appreciate it.

Coming up, is it time to take it down? The future of the confederate flag in South Carolina being debated right now inside of the state capital. All of this as confederate flag supporters are now turning out to defend what they say is a piece of American history. We'll have a live report from the state capital.

Also, life after escape. Former fugitive David Sweat now back behind bars, moved into this new maximum security prison, now on suicide watch and spending 23 hours a day in confinement. We'll talk to a former federal inmate about what life will now be like for Sweat presumably for the rest of his life.

And happening right now, Pope Francis making a homecoming of sorts as he returns to South America. I mean, look at this, rock star reception. Massive crowds here turning out to greet him in Ecuador. The message he is delivering, straight ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:15:40] BALDWIN: You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

Question, will there be enough political unity against the flag that has divided South Carolina for generations. Nearly three weeks after that racist massacre inside a Charleston church, lawmakers are now debating whether the confederate flag should, in fact, be removed from the state capital grounds. The Charleston killer proudly wore the symbol that many say represents hate, while others say, no, this is about southern heritage. Here's what is clear, the murders of nine black worshipers have changed the hearts and minds of some lawmakers who once vehemently supported the flag.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LARRY MARTIN (R), SOUTH CAROLINA STATE SENATOR: There's a difference between a banner that flutters in the breeze out there versus a monument. Huge difference. Huge difference. And I don't think until what happened a few weeks ago that so devastated this state and our country, I don't think I'd ever really appreciated that.

Seeing that thing fluttering out there in a way that sort of gives some official status to it on behalf of the people of South Carolina. That doesn't represent all the people of South Carolina.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Let's go to Nick Valencia is live there in Columbia where lawmakers began debating just a couple of hours ago.

So just bring us up to speed. Where does the debate stand and what about a vote?

NICK VALENCIA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, the short answer, Brooke, is, it's unclear. Earlier I spoke to State Senator Marlon Kimpson who's one of those that introduced the bill and he told me that the state senators adjourned from their special (INAUDIBLE) this morning to (INAUDIBLE) caucus meetings to try to figure out where Republicans and Democrats stood on the vote. the details of those caucus meetings, well, we just don't know.

Earlier this week - I should say late last week, I'm sorry, on Friday, "The Post & Courier," which is the state's leading newspaper, surveyed lawmakers and it appeared at that point that there were enough votes to pass this bill that would permanently remove the confederate flag from state grounds. In the last six hours, all of that might have changed. Earlier, State Senator Vincent Sheheen, who's one of the co- sponsors of this bill, addressed his colleagues in the senate.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

VINCENT SHEHEEN (D), SOUTH CAROLINA STATE SENATE: It's one small piece of that culture of division that we live in, but it's one small piece that we can do something about and we can do it this week. And we should.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VALENCIA: Now, in order for this bill to pass, it's going to take a two-thirds majority in both chambers of the state's general assembly. That amounts to 31 votes in the senate, 75 in the house. (INAUDIBLE) get those votes. Well, it could turn out to be a more dramatic week than expected. We were told by one former representative that it could have happened - the vote could have happened as early as Thursday if everything went smoothly. It doesn't appear that things are going as smoothly as projected.

Brooke.

BALDWIN: All right. So earliest, Nick, that Governor Nikki Haley could get this could be the end of the week, yes?

VALENCIA: That's right, the end of the week. And it's going to take her to sign it. And what we're told, if this bill passes - now, if this bill passes, the flag will be removed swiftly. It will be an unceremonious removal where it will then be transferred to a local museum here, and that's where it will stay.

Brooke.

BALDWIN: A museum. All right, Nick Valencia, thank you very much.

Coming up next, former fugitive David Sweat back behind bars today, transported to a new maximum security prison where he is currently sitting on suicide watch. What will life be like for him now? We'll talk to a former prisoner himself who recently spoke with someone who knew David Sweat on the inside.

Also ahead, how the crisis with the Greek economy could affect financial markets here in the U.S. What that means for you and why our CNN Money folks say really we should be paying attention to what's happened in China.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:23:40] BALDWIN: After 23 days on the run and a week in the hospital, escaped killer David Sweat is now back behind bars. But at this place, yes, those - there's no honor block. You are a - about to see his new home here. Five Points Correctional Facility. It's a newer maximum security prison in the central New York town of Romulus. It is here where he will be spending 23 hours a day in the prison's special housing unit. This is a place where inmates spend all but one hour in solitary confinement. Just think about that, one hour. It is a tiny 105-square foot cell with a bed, a writing platform, a toilet, a sink and a show.

Joining me now, Larry Levine, former federal inmate and founder of Wall Street Prison Consultants.

Larry, welcome back.

LARRY LEVINE, FORMER FEDERAL INMATE: Glad to be with you, Brooke.

BALDWIN: All right, so let's talk about this place, Five Points here, because we did some digging and found out that officials actually thwarted an escape at this place back in November of 2011, found a hole in a fence, found a dummy, like the dummies that Sweat and Matt, you know, left behind in their beds. So do you think that they will be keeping extra eyes on David Sweat as he's at this place?

LEVINE: Well, his accommodations, they've certainly changed. You know, his world's now a 10 by 10 cell. They have him on suicide watch. He's not wearing a uniform. He's wearing a paper mache jump suit. That's normally what they do because they don't want him to try to hang himself.

[14:25:05] And then they probably have either a Plexiglas wall where they can watch him or they've got closed circuit cameras on him 24 hours a day. So he's going to have no privacy, no TV, no commissary, no microwave, no mingling with other inmates. His whole world has changed completely.

BALDWIN: What - what, Larry, is the reputation of this place, Five Points?

LEVINE: Well, it's a high - it's a maximum security institution. If you compare it to Clinton, Clinton had about 3,000 people. This place has, I don't know, roughly 1,500 people. And 71 percent of them, it's reported, are dangerous maximum security inmates. But the place was built in 2000, so it's brand new, essentially. So the whole institution is going to be high-tech, high security. The staff is on alert. I mean the whole New York D.O.C. is on alert now. But, I mean, they're really cracking down. All the things that we heard going on in Clinton, I can assure you, these aren't happening at Five Points. They're on the guard right now. They're watching this guy.

BALDWIN: Yes. You learned a little bit more about David Sweat. You talked to someone who did time with him who called him quiet and calculating. What stories did he share with you?

LEVINE: Well, he said that Sweat had a lot of juice. Juice means influence in the system. That Sweat was working in one tailor shop. He apparently got fired in that tailor shop for reasons we don't know. But they transferred him to a different tailor shop and that's where my source worked with him at.

And apparently in that institution, when you get fired from a work center, they don't transfer you to an identical work center within the institution. It really doesn't happen. And I also learned - I mean this is amazing. I'd never heard anything like this. The steam pipes that they had in the institution, they have cable TV in the inmate cells at Clinton, which is kind of normal. I've heard of that before. But they would put the schedule for the heating system and the steam pipes right on the TV to tell the inmates when these would not be functional. So, essentially, they gave the inmates a blueprint when the pipes wouldn't be active. And I think that was instrumental in helping them escape.

BALDWIN: So that's how they would know. How about that? Now that he's at Five Points and will be spending - you know, he'll have this one hour a day for exercise and you use the word juice. Will that even matter at this new place?

LEVINE: No.

BALDWIN: Will he even see other people at all, other than guards?

LEVINE: Maybe medical staff, counselor, a case manager, but he's not going to be mingling with any other inmates. He's going to be in complete isolation. And generally, in the New York system, when somebody escapes, they put you in the special housing unit for up to five years. But on the other hand, they're going to need him to testify against Joyce Mitchell and possibly Officer Palmer. So if that's the case, they may move him to yet another institution and they may give him just a little bit of leeway. Maybe he won't spend five years sitting in the hole or the (INAUDIBLE) he'll certainly be hard timing it, as we (INAUDIBLE).

He's not going to - it's like going from, let's say, a four-star hotel to living in a hut somewhere in a dusty, deserted town. He's going to be isolated. No contact. You know, at Clinton I was told that there was inmates there that made moonshine. Also known as pruno hooch (ph). At Clinton, they called it "clear" and the inmates would buy it for $10 a bottle in a Gatorade bottle. So David Sweat, I understand, used to drink there. So no more getting high, no more getting drunk. That's all over for him.

BALDWIN: Well, note to self, David Sweat, don't break out of a maximum security prison because if you thought your life was hell before -

LEVINE: He's not getting out of there, Brooke.

BALDWIN: No, he's not. Larry Levine, thank you so much.

LEVINE: Certainly.

BALDWIN: Coming up next, he drove off on a motorcycle. You are looking at the former finance minister of Greece. He was off and away shortly after he quit (INAUDIBLE) crisis. We'll discuss what that means for you, (INAUDIBLE) personal portfolios, or perhaps a Greek island vacation and why some folks are saying, forget Greece, we really should be talking about China.

Plus, a deadly weekend in the city of Chicago. Seven people are dead due to the spike in gun violence over the holiday weekend. But the victims include this seven-year-old boy. We're live in Chicago, next.

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