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Donald Trump Under Fire; Airline Price Fixing?; New Info Emerges on Prison Escape. Aired 3-3:30p ET

Aired July 1, 2015 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:00:01] BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: Michael Smerconish, thank you very much. We watch you every Saturday 9:00 a.m. and 6:00 p.m. Eastern right here on CNN.

MICHAEL SMERCONISH, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Thank you.

BALDWIN: Thank you.

Top of the hour. You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

Joyce Mitchell, seamstress Joyce Mitchell, wanted her own husband killed. At least that is what captured inmate David Sweat is saying about the prison seamstress who was supposedly to be the getaway driver to Mexico.

This is just one of now the multiple bombshell confessions coming from this convicted cop killer during his 23 days on the run, an escape he says he masterminded. He says he was the guy. It was Richard Matt who apparently slowed him down. Sweat telling police that he grew fed up with Matt who he says was physically out of shape and liked to drink, which you shouldn't have when you're running from police.

Let me bring in first our justice correspondent Evan Perez, who has all this great information from his sources.

So, as Sweat is talking, what is he saying specifically about how they got out, including that sledgehammer that just happened to be laying around in the tunnel?

EVAN PEREZ, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: That's right, Brooke. He's saying it really wasn't that complicated after all. It turns out that Sweat has told investigators that he and Richard Matt found this sledgehammer to break a brick wall and make their getaway underneath the prison and he says a construction worker inadvertently left the sledgehammer and that there were no power tools used.

And he also said, by the way, that the idea to kill the husband of Joyce Mitchell, well, that came from Joyce Mitchell herself. As you know, that Mitchell and Matt were apparently in a sexual relationship, at least according to Sweat, and Sweat said he was not involved. And Mitchell has already said the opposite. She's told investigators that it was Sweat and Matt's idea to kill her husband.

And we should also note that Sweat also told investigators that initially, as you mentioned, that he and Matt were getting along as they made their getaway, but eventually he got frustrated that Matt was out of shape and couldn't keep up with him and he was also angry that Matt was getting drunk on alcohol that they had found in a cabin, Brooke.

BALDWIN: So he got frustrated and he ditched him and he ended up getting shot and killed. And then obviously he continued on until he was caught. It could be interesting if David Sweat actually in the end has to testify against Joyce Mitchell given everything that he is saying.

Evan Perez, thank you so much.

PEREZ: Thanks.

BALDWIN: Let me move along and bring in Arnett Gaston, clinical psychologist and former warden and commanding officer at Rikers Island in New York.

So, Arnett Gaston, welcome.

ARNETT GASTON, FORMER PRISON WARDEN: Thank you.

BALDWIN: Can you just help me first try to get inside David Sweat's head because he said he ditched Matt because he was out of shape? He was drinking in this cabin, but even more revealing, Sweat said that he was aware that Matt had been killed. Upset, he moved onward to Canada. My question is what's in it for him to paint this picture that he, David Sweat, was the strong, the mastermind, the planner?

GASTON: Well, there are several reasons.

One, he can now be an uncontested hero. This is quite an accomplishment.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: A hero to who?

GASTON: To fellow inmates, prisoners and for people who are fascinated by these type of exploits.

Further, he can without opposition talk about how he was the mastermind, how he concocted the whole idea, how he championed the entire the entire affair, and it can raise his prestige among prison populations, so that that is one of several reasons why he may have done it.

Secondly, by saying that he masterminded the entire plot, there can be other advantages. Unfortunately, even staff sometimes will have admiration for people who can accomplish these types of feats, so it does not surprise me that, being there is no one to oppose him, that Sweat is making these kinds of statements.

BALDWIN: And also significantly, at least from our own reporting, that he continues to throw the seamstress under the bus so to speak, but isn't speaking ill or bringing in any of these other corrections officers as part of his plot. That to me is significant.

In terms of your own personal background, I know that you studied the Baltimore City Detention Center where 13 officers there were charged for essentially letting a gang run the prison from the inside. Four prison officers were even impregnated by one gang leader.

I mean, when you hear that David Sweat says it was this seamstress who wanted the men to kill her husband, do you buy that?

GASTON: It is possible.

First of all, let me say that it is unfortunate that these types of liaisons can occur. The good news is that they are not -- that they don't occur that often, but they can occur.

[15:05:05]

As a result of that, a lot of times things can occur such as this situation, where the correction officer who was married to the lady was destined to be killed. Whose idea it was, that's going to have to be discerned. Sweat says it was her idea. She claimed she balked at the idea once they said she would kill him and she claims they used that as leverage to make sure that she carried out her part of the bargain.

That is going to have to be determined through further investigation, but let me say this. Given the backgrounds of both of these individuals, I seriously doubt if either one of them would have survived if they continued to contribute to this effort.

BALDWIN: Let me -- I want to play some sounds. This is from a man who knew Richard Matt and David Sweat inside the prison. This is what he said about David Sweat, this cop killer.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ERIK JENSEN, FORMER INMATE: He was respected. He was respected because in that environment, when you're in a prison environment, they judge you by your crime, when you come in.

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He was a cop killer.

JENSEN: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He was respected.

JENSEN: In there, it's respect because you're all convicts. That's like the highest level of respect you can get in the prison system is if you kill somebody who puts you in the prison.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: To you point about crimes and reputations among inmates, again, if he's saying he's the mastermind, we know spending the rest of his life behind bars, perhaps if he agrees to name names, maybe he won't be in, I don't know, solitary as long has he could be. How will this all play out among the other inmates in terms of a hierarchy inside?

GASTON: Well, clearly, the fact that he was a cop killer, that raises his prestige among convicts.

The fact that he was able to achieve this rather unusual escape, that certainly does not diminish his status. It's safe to say he's a hero among the inmate population. Now, what the authorities plan to do regarding that in terms of this hero's status and how that might influence other inmates will I think in large part determine how much involvement he has with other inmates.

I seriously doubt from my own experience that he will be let out in general population.

BALDWIN: Ever?

GASTON: If I were the commanding officer, unless I was ordered by the courts, he would be in the type of isolation that is constitutionally appropriate, but would give him very, very limited access to the general population.

BALDWIN: Arnett Gaston, thank you.

GASTON: You're welcome.

BALDWIN: Coming up next, Donald Trump's brand in big, big trouble. Macy's now dropping him after NBC did the same thing. Hear from a man who started a petition years ago and now has gotten Macy's to make that move.

Plus, breaking developments, another fire at an African-American church in the Deep South, a church that has been targeted by hate groups in the past, what the FBI says could be behind this latest fire.

And a breaking story that could impact airline passengers everywhere. Are airlines colluding to keep passengers paying higher airfare? Wait until you hear what the Justice Department is investigating in the wake of all of this straight ahead here on CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:12:48]

BALDWIN: Just into us here at CNN, in you think your plane ticket is expensive, the Department of Justice has subpoenaed airlines for possible price fixing.

Let's go to our aviation correspondent Rene Marsh in Washington for more on this.

Rene, what's happening? RENE MARSH, CNN AVIATION CORRESPONDENT: Well, Brooke, we are learning

that the Justice Department has sent subpoenas to several major airlines as part of an investigation into -- quote -- and this is the Justice Department's words -- "possible unlawful coordination," essentially coordinating with each other and keeping ticket prices high.

That, again, according to the Justice Department. We also know that they have sent civil investigative demand letters to the airlines. That happened on Tuesday. Now, all of this is happening after Senator Richard Blumenthal earlier in June sent a letter to the Department of Justice asking them to investigate, Blumenthal pointing out that with all of the consolidation between these airlines that only four major airlines now control roughly 80 percent of the market and he had some concern that that sort of power would lend to coordination and higher ticket prices for consumers.

He asked the Department of Justice to investigate this, and now we are getting word they are doing just that -- Brooke.

BALDWIN: OK. Rene Marsh, we will look for more of your reporting on this. Thank you so much.

And an African-American church, this is a church the KKK burned two decades ago, is now reduced to ashes once again, but it appears this time the fire here at Mount Zion AME Church in Greeleyville, South Carolina, was an act of Mother Nature, and not one of hate. Senior FBI officials say they suspect lightning ignited the flames there.

And our CNN meteorological team here spotted four strikes, four lightning strikes in the area where Mount Zion, that church, is located. It's about an hour-and-a-half drive from that racist massacre of the nine black church members in Charleston just two weeks ago.

Brian Todd has more from this church in Greeleyville, South Carolina -- Brian.

[15:15:01]

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Brooke, We're outside the Mount Zion AME Church here in Greeleyville. You can see the burned-out wreckage from the fire inside that opening there, the charred walls and the rubble inside.

Really, all that's left of the building is the brick foundation. So far, federal investigators believe this might have been caused by a lightning strike. That is according to senior people in the FBI who have spoken to CNN, Brooke.

But, of course, given the shootings in Charleston, South Carolina, not far from here just two weeks ago, and given the history of this place, tensions are high around here. And 20 years ago, this church was burned down by two members of the Ku Klux Klan. It was renovated. It was rebuilt. President Clinton, then President Clinton came and rededicated this church. It became a real symbol of the struggles with civil rights in this part of the country.

So the history of this is also what's kind of just ratcheting up tension here and has a lot of these and has a lot of these churches and the people who run them on edge this afternoon.

Again, right now, federal investigators believe that a lightning strike caused this fire, but what we can also tell you, Brooke, is that a short time ago, we have spoken to ATF investigators and sheriff's investigators on the ground.

The ATF people told us that a short time ago, their canine teams went through here looking for any signs of accelerants. But they're telling us at this hour that so far they just can't determine a cause of this fire. They not get that determination for several hours, if not a few days -- Brooke.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BALDWIN: OK. Brian Todd, thank you.

Next, Donald Trump's brand in trouble, Macy's now dropping him after NBC did the same. Hear from the man who started a petition years ago to get Macy's to make that move. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:20:55]

BALDWIN: You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

2016 Republican presidential candidate Donald Trump is losing clients left and right. Controversial remarks he's made about Mexicans and immigrants have cost him partnerships with NBC Universal, the Spanish- language TV network Univision, and now Macy's. That retailer is phasing out his line of men's wear.

Let me back up. This whole uproar began the day he announced his candidacy when he spoke for quite a while and in particular called Mexicans rapists and killers. Last night during a speech in New Hampshire, his vitriol continued.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Hundreds of thousands of people, illegals, coming over the border, hundreds of thousands in jail, federal jails, state jails, local jails.

The crime is enormous. When I mentioned that, people went crazy. What a terrible thing. Univision, who made such a big deal out of my statements because they are afraid of Mexico, and the reason they are afraid of Mexico isn't I think because of the border, although they are getting away with murder at the border -- Mexico is getting away with murder at the border -- remember, I respect Mexico and I respect their leaders. Illegal alien rapes and murders, a young baby in New Mexico, OK? By

the way, hundreds of these articles. Now, I don't know where they came from. They came from someplace, but they are illegal. They shouldn't be allowed in the country. We need a border.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: All right. Again, that was Trump last night in New Hampshire.

The news today about Macy's follows a major online campaign that demanded it cut ties with the real estate mogul. We will talk to the person who started that in a second, but first up here, CNN politics and money reporter M.J. Lee joins us.

You broke the news for us here on the CNN on the split. So, my first question is, today, you had Donald Trump saying, no, no, no, I'm the one who severed ties with Macy's and then the other side saying the same -- that the reverse. Which is it?

M.J. LEE, CNN POLITICS CORRESPONDENT: Right. Who knows.

I think that Trump will probably never acknowledge when he's in the fault and he has caused harm to himself. But, look, I think it's interesting that the guy who loves to say the words you're fired is being fired left and right.

You mentioned NBC cutting ties with Trump. You also mentioned that he will no longer have a part in the Miss USA Pageant. I think that the Macy's news really goes to show that when you say disparaging things and racially offensive things and things that really hurt a wide spectrum of people, that just does not sit well with corporate America, when you have hundreds of thousands of people petitioning Macy's and saying, look, why do you sell stuff that this guy makes? It's really hard for a company like that to ignore that.

BALDWIN: When you look at the businesses, the money he's losing, is this backfiring?

LEE: Yes. I mean, I think at some point he has to ask himself the question, how much of a hit to my bottom dollar am I willing to take for sake of I guess running for public office?

BALDWIN: Stay with me. I want to bring in another voice here, the man behind the online petition urging Macy's to dump Donald Trump. He is Angelo Carusone. He says his campaign began three years ago. He's executive vice president for Media Matters and he joins me now from Washington.

So, Angelo, great to have you on.

ANGELO CARUSONE, MEDIA MATTERS: Thanks for having me.

BALDWIN: Let me ask you the same question that I asked M.J. here. Donald Trump is saying he's the one severing the relationship with Macy's, not the other way around. What's your response to that?

CARUSONE: Well, I think, you know, if it could seem like a he said/she said, but, however, Donald Trump is now, right now, trying to organize a boycott campaign against Macy's, and if he was the one that made the decision to leave Macy's, why would he then have to turn around and organize a boycott campaign? It just doesn't make sense.

His own actions reveal the fact that he was deceiving everybody when he came out there and said that it was his decision.

BALDWIN: Listen, the fact that he's now thrown his hat in the ring, a lot of critics have come out and said this is just more -- this is a stunt or this could be reality TV or this is just better for his brand, but as we were just discussing, you know, in terms of a bottom line, really the opposite seems to be happening.

[15:25:00]

We talk about you and starting this petition a couple of years ago. Why did you begin that then?

CARUSONE: Well, I actually started it exactly because of that word, the brand, because I had come across a letter from Macy's' CEO to Donald Trump, and Donald Trump just can't help bragging about himself and actually was the one that posted a picture of this private letter.

And the P.S. said that don't give up the real estate business yet, but we're developing a meaningful fashion business with your brand.

And when I think about Donald Trump's brand, I don't think about his one-off remarks here and there. His brand is bigoted bullying. And when I think about Macy's brand, I think about the Thanksgiving Parade, the fireworks, nostalgia. People have good feelings towards that brand. Macy's marketing is built around that.

And to me as a Macy's customer at the time, the brands are wildly inconsistent and that's why I started to take action.

BALDWIN: So you started to take action. Again, this is 2012. The Trump Organization in response threatened you with a lawsuit, and you got a letter.

Let me just read a piece of this. "Make no mistake. Your concerted efforts to harass and injure Mr. Trump, his name, reputation and business dealings are actionable under law and will not be tolerated."

And, Angelo, they threatened no less than $25 million, and, again, all for what? Your petition?

CARUSONE: Right. That's right. It's because I was initiating this campaign. I wasn't saying anything defamatory or untrue, and I wasn't even really hard attacking Macy's.

I was just saying what Macy's' brand represents and what Donald Trump's brand represents, and when you put those two brands next to each other, they are just not compatible. I did run some billboards around Macy's stores in the lead-up to the Christmas holiday, but, you know, I mean, none of that was illegal. It was just Donald Trump's attempt to bully me into silence and to stop me.

BALDWIN: Where have you -- I'm just curious. Have you hung on to that -- I'm curious. Have hung on to that letter?

CARUSONE: I have hung on to that letter. It's in a frame in my apartment.

BALDWIN: In a frame in your apartment.

CARUSONE: It's a two-page letter.

BALDWIN: OK.

I have it, both pages, right here.

Final question. And, M.J., you weigh in as well because when we talk so much about the brand, a lot of this, too, is politics. Obviously, this is someone who says he wants to be the president of the United States, and when you look at latest CNN polls, which clearly Donald Trump is reading, quickly to you and then finely to Angelo, he's in second place behind Jeb Bush.

LEE: Yes. Look, I think a lot of that has to do with the fact that he's the new face right now, right, and he makes a lot of headlines and he makes a lot of bombastic statements. When you do that, you do get a lot of attention and you might get a bump in the polls.

But, look, I'm just coming back from New Hampshire, where I went to Chris Christie's town hall event and I asked a lot of voters, how seriously do you take Donald Trump? And there are a lot of voters who are offended by the comments that he has made and do not think that the party should be taking him seriously.

BALDWIN: OK. We will leave it there. M.J. Lee, thank you very much.

Angelo Carusone, thank you. I appreciate it.

CARUSONE: Thank you.

BALDWIN: And, tonight, hear the story straight from Donald Trump. He will be joining my colleague Don Lemon on "CNN TONIGHT" 10:00 Eastern, must-see TV.

Coming up next, inmate David Sweat, who broke out of prison, is talking a lot about the plot he says he masterminded, his relationship with that prison seamstress, what he says Joyce Mitchell asked him to do next.

Plus, if there was corruption inside the prison, is it really rare? Let's talk to a former deputy warden for the New York City Department of Corrections next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)