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Supreme Court Rules Same-Sex Marriage Bans Unconstitutional. Aired 11:00-11:30a ET.

Aired June 26, 2015 - 11:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


JAKE TAPPER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: A very moving interview with the lead plaintiff in the case. A historic day at the US Supreme Court. Justice Anthony Kennedy handing down a decision, a 5 to 4 decision, saying that bans on same-sex marriage are unconstitutional.

There were 13 states in the United States including Mr. Obergefell's home state of Ohio in which those bans were in place. They are no longer in place. Let's talk about where this fight goes now. I have here Jonathan Turley as well as Neal Katyal but - actually one second. Gentlemen, I got to go to Brian Todd on the steps of the Supreme Court.

BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Jake, we're here with Rachel Gaddis. She was very emotional a moment ago. She was crying. Rachel, talk to me about what this means to you?

RACHEL GADDIS: This is a really amazing day for America. I'm an emotional person. So it comes out. But I was just at the wedding of my best friends from college last weekend and they're on their honeymoon right now, Kim and Kate, I love you guys. And America loves you. And we're so proud of you. And God bless America.

TODD: And it means something personal to you. You have a cousin who's gay who may be going through some of these issues. Talk to me about that.

GADDIS: I have lots of friends and family who have - I've had the pleasure of them coming out to me and I've been able to support them. And it's something that I'm honored to have the privilege to do that. And to now have the backing of our nation and of our Supreme Court, it's really incredible.

TODD: Thank you for talking to us, Rachel. Crowds still here in a very festive mood. Jake you've got some of the speakers, the plaintiffs, and others over there. And we're going to - this crowd vastly outnumbers the people here who were against this ruling. We're going to try to find some of those in a minute. But right now, you've just - we still got some very energetic celebrations here at the foot of the Supreme Court, Jake.

TAPPER: I will continue check in with the celebrants at the US Supreme Court. And we are expecting any minute President Obama to come to the Rose Garden and give a statement. And when that happens, we'll bring it to you live. But I just want to talk for one second with Neal Katyal, former acting

solicitor general of the United States, and Jonathan Turley here. The division, the split in the court is intense. And if you read Scalia's dissent, he actually criticizes the writing of Anthony Kennedy. Where does the court go from here? And then I want to talk about where same-sex marriage rights and same-sex rights go from here. Let's start with where does the court go?

NEAL KATYAL, FORMER ACTING SOLICITOR GENERAL: Yes, I mean, I was in the courtroom watching the decisions come down. And Justice Kennedy began on a pretty sober way, just outlining his case. The chief justice then writes a dissent, which is very rare for him to do. He sees himself as the institutional steward of the court. It was powerful and hard hitting.

You mentioned the language Justice Scalia in his dissent. But the chief justice used really powerful language as well. At the end of the day though, these are nine scorpions in a bottle. They're going to have to live for decades with each other. And they look passive. Tomorrow's another day. I suspect they'll come to work afresh and anew, and get - roll their sleeves up, and not harbor animosities that you see in today's decision.

TAPPER: And Jonathan Turley, same-sex marriage is now the law of the land.

[11:05:00]

The United States joining 20 other countries, same-sex marriage is legal in every state here. But the fight, the culture war fight over same-sex marriage not necessarily over. And there's still issues about whether or not an evangelical baker will have to bake cakes for same-sex couples' weddings.

JONATHAN TURLEY, LAW PROFESSOR GEORGE WASHINGTON UNIVERSITY: I think that's where you're going to see most of the action shift, is on the question of the accommodation, the discrimination issues related to same-sex couples. And there you have an intermix with free speech, free exercise of religion, those are very difficult questions.

You're also going to see more challenges abroad. There are 20 countries, now 21 with us, that recognize same-sex marriage. But it means a lot of US marriage licenses are going to be sided abroad. And it's going to force many of the countries that don't recognize same- sex marriage in a much greater numbers to address it.

But the thing - I think the court as an institution, why this is such a powerful moment is they tend to avoid answering questions that are dividing us politically...

TAPPER: I have to interrupt. I'm sorry. Pamela Brown is on the steps and she's with Mr. Obergefell, who is getting a phone call from a very important person. Pamela?

BROWN: Yes and that very important person, Jake, is President Obama, calling Jim Obergefell. OBERGEFELL: Hello?

BARACK OBAMA, US PRESIDENT: Hi, is this Jim?

OBERGEFELL: Yes, it is, Mr. President.

PRES. OBAMA: Jim, when I saw you that we were going to be hoping for some good news. And we did. I just want to say congratulations.

OBERGEFELL: Thank you so much, sir. I think it was your wishes.

PRES. OBAMA: You know, your leadership on this, you know, has changed the country.

OBERGEFELL: I really appreciate that, Mr. President. It's really been an honor for me to be involved in this fight and to have been able to, you know, fight for my marriage and live up to my commitments to my husband. So I appreciate everything you've done for the LGBT community and it's really an honor to have become part of that fight.

PRES. OBAMA: Well, we're really proud of you. And you know, just know that, you know, not only have you been a great example for people but you're also going to bring about a lasting change in this country. And it's pretty rare where that happens. So I couldn't be prouder of you and your husband. God bless you.

OBERGEFELL: Thank you, sir. That means an incredible amount to me. And, yes, thank you.

PRES. OBAMA: All right. Take care.

OBERGEFELL: Thanks for the call, Mr. President.

PRES. OBAMA: OK. Bye-bye.

OBERGEFELL: Bye.

BROWN: Jim, when you hear the president say to you that your leadership has changed the country, what is that like?

OBERGEFELL: I can't even put it into words. It's stunning to have the president say something like that to me is not something I ever dreamed of, not something I can honestly think really happened. It just seems unbelievable. And it's an honor.

BROWN: And your partner, John Arthur, imagine he's looking down very proud.

OBERGEFELL: Yes. Oh I know he is, yes.

BROWN: What else did the president say for those of us who couldn't hear the phone call?

OBERGEFELL: I think you captured most of it. Just that he was proud of me for putting myself out here and being part of this fight. And we met earlier this week at the pride celebration, and we talked that night about how he thought we were getting good news this week. So it was nice that he was right. And just those kinds of things. Just being proud of me. And that was probably the best thing possible to hear from the president, that he was proud of me.

BROWN: The president of the United States of America congratulating you, Jim Obergefell, for your victory here today, on this historic day at the Supreme Court. Jake?

TAPPER: What a remarkable moment in live news happening right here at CNN. Pamela, I want to bring in Jeffrey Toobin who wants to ask Mr. Obergefell some questions. And I know he doesn't have an earpiece, so you're going to have to translate. Jeffrey, let me bring you in.

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Well, you know, Jim, I have Cincinnati roots, too. And I wonder if you can talk about how different Cincinnati is. Because, you know, when you left for the oral arguments, there was a ceremony at city hall wishing you well. It's very different from how Cincinnati used to be, isn't it?

BROWN: So Jeffrey Toobin is also from Cincinnati.

OBERGEFELL: Oh, really?

BROWN: Yes. And he said that it's very different than it used to be. A lot of people wishing you well. Tell us about that.

OBERGEFELL: Yes. Cincinnati has changed dramatically for the better over the past 15 years. You know, back in the mid-90s, it was a unfriendly place for the LGBT community. The only city in the country that had a law that said no laws could be passed to protect the LGBT community.

[11:10:00]

So we went from that to a city that - when we filed our suits, the city solicitors stood up in court and said, "Your honor, the city of Cincinnati will not fight. We agree with John and Jim." It's been an incredible change. The city has grown and changed so much. It's a very welcoming place for the LGBT community now. And it's really badly wonderful to see that happen.

(CROSSTALK)

BROWN: And now the state will change in a dramatic way after today's decision.

OBERGEFELL: Right, I hope so. You know, I think, now that this has happened, I think not just Ohio, but across the country, as people see more gay couples get married, they're going to realize we're no different than they are.

And I think it's just as this becomes more open, more visible, people realize we're simply asking for the exact same things. So love and commit to the person we want to. So I think the state of Ohio and the rest of the country will continue to see changes for the positive.

BROWN: Jeffrey Toobin, is there anything else you wanted to ask?

TOOBIN: Well, that's really the point I wanted to make because it's such a dramatic change. This was the city that prosecuted the local art museum for showing Robert Mapplethorpe photographs. And, you know, photos of, you know, homosexually oriented photographs. And now Jim Obergefell is like the first citizen of Cincinnati, and not just to me, that symbolizes not just Cincinnati's change but the whole country's.

BROWN: Absolutely, and Jim, this is a fight that you had a lot of people rallying around you. But this is a fight that you couldn't do with your partner, John Arthur. Tell us what that has been like, what this fight has been like for you.

OBERGEFELL: Well, it's true. You know, with this ruling, so many people across the country, they now have something that they can do. They can propose and marry the person that they love. I can't celebrate with my husband. I don't get anything out of this. I can't go home and suddenly marry my husband, marry my partner. So it is bittersweet for me.

But even without John here, the love that I've been shown from across the country has gotten me through this. And it's helped my grieving process. And it's made me closer to John in a lot of ways because I have been able to stand up and to fight for him and to talk about him every day and to see how people relate to us and respond to our story. It's just made it a really good experience.

BROWN: Jim Obergefell, the lead plaintiff in this case, just getting the call from President Obama, receiving the congratulations from him. Wolf Blitzer, just an incredible day here at the Supreme Court. Back to you.

WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: A historic moment indeed. For the second day in a row, the president of the United States is going to walk out of the oval office, walk down their steps. The president will be going and making a state - we just actually heard from the president how happy he is. He made that phone call to Jim Obergefell praising this united states Supreme Court decision.

It's really a historic moment here in the United States. What a week it is for the president of the United States. He's walking down those stairs very, very pleased. Let's listen in.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PRES. OBAMA: Good morning. Our nation was founded on a bedrock principle that we are all created equal. The project of each generation is to bridge the meaning of those founding words with the realities of changing times. A never-ending quest to ensure those words ring true for every single American.

Progress on this journey often comes in small increments. Sometimes two steps forward, one step back, propelled by the persistent effort of dedicated citizens. And then sometimes there are days like this when that slow, steady effort is rewarded with justice that arrives like a thunderbolt.

This morning, the Supreme Court recognized that the constitution guarantees marriage equality. In doing so, they've reaffirmed that all Americans are entitled to the equal protection of the law, that all people should be treated equally regardless of who they are or who they love.

[11:15:00]

This decision will end the patchwork system we currently have. It will end the uncertainty hundreds of thousands same-sex couples face from not knowing whether their marriage, legitimate in the eyes of one state, will remain if they decide to move or even visit another.

This ruling will strengthen all of our communities by offering to all loving same-sex couples the dignity of marriage across this great land. In my second inaugural address I said that if we are truly created equal, then surely the love we commit to one another must be equal as well.

It is gratifying to see that principle enshrined into law by this decision. This ruling is a victory for Jim Obergefell and the other plaintiffs in the case. It's a victory for gay and lesbian couples who have fought so long for their basic civil rights. It's a victory for their children whose families will now be recognized as equal to any other. It's a victory for the allies and friends and supporters who spent years, even decades working and praying for change to come. And this ruling is a victory for America.

This decision affirms what millions of Americans already believe in their hearts, when all Americans are treated as equal, we are all more free. My administration has been guided by that idea that's why we stopped defending the so-called Defense of Marriage Act and why we're pleased when the court finally struck down the central provision of that discriminatory law. It's why we ended don't ask, don't tell.

From extending full marital benefits to federal employees and their spouses to expanding hospital visitation rights for LGBT patients and their loved ones, we've made real progress in advancing equality for LGBT Americans in ways that were unimaginable not too long ago.

I know change for many of our LGBT brothers and sisters must have seemed so slow for so long. But compared to so many other issues, America's shift has been so quick. I know that Americans of good will continue to hold a wide range of views on this issue. Opposition in some cases has been based on sincere and deeply held beliefs.

All of us who welcome today's news should be mindful of that fact. Recognize different viewpoints, revere our deep commitment to religious freedom. But today should also give us hope that on the many issues with which we grapple often painfully real change is possible. Shifts in hearts and minds is possible. Those who have come so far on their journey to equality have a responsibility to reach back and help others join them. Because for all our differences, we are one people, stronger together than we could ever be alone. That's always been our story. We are big and vast and diverse, a nation of people with different backgrounds and beliefs, different experiences and stories, but bound by our shared ideal that no matter who you are or what you look like, how you started off or how and who you love, America's a place where you can write your own destiny.

We are a people who believe that every single child is entitled to life and liberty and the pursuit of happiness. There's so much more work to be done to extend the full promise of every American, but today we can say, in no uncertain terms, that we've made our union a little more perfect. That's the consequence of a decision from the Supreme Court.

[11:20:00]

But more importantly, it's a consequence of the countless small acts of courage, of millions of people across decades who stood up, who came out and talked to parents, parents who loved their children no matter what, folks who were willing to endure bullying and taunts and stayed strong and came to believe in themselves and who they were, and slowly made an entire country realize that love is love.

What an extraordinary achievement, what a vindication of the belief that ordinary people can do extraordinary things. What a reminder of what Bobby Kennedy once said about how small actions can be like pebbles being thrown into a still, like ripples of hope cascade outwards and change the world. Those countless, often anonymous heroes, they deserve our thanks. They should be very proud. America should be very proud. Thank you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: For the second day in a row, the president of the United States is going into the rose garden to applaud a major historic United States Supreme Court decision. What a week this has been for the president. A week - he started off the week saying he would be fearless in fighting for civil rights in the United States in the aftermath of that massacre at Charleston, South Carolina church.

He then got free trade authority legislation passed by the United States congress. Yesterday, the Obama Affordable Care Act was affirmed by the United States Supreme Court. Today he gets what he wanted, the Supreme Court saying that same-sex marriage is now legal in all 50 states of the United States.

He says this is a victory for America. Homosexuals, he says, will no longer be second class citizens in the United States. They will have the equal right like all Americans to go ahead and get married if they want to get married.

Gloria Borger is with me. John King is with me. It's really - when you think about history and historians, years from now, historians will write about this week, this amazing week here in the United States.

JOHN KING, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: You're right about the week in its entirety alone. So right as the president spoke about the speed with which this specific issue has moved. As we discussed a bit earlier in the 2004 presidential campaign, republicans put deliberately on state ballots state amendments banning same-sex marriage to gin up conservative turnout.

And they would tell you believe it was critical to what was a pretty narrow re-election victory by George W. Bush. He closed his speeches in the final weeks urging conservatives to turn out to vote for him as the defender of traditional marriage.

That was 2004, this is 2015. This president, we've just looked it up. Gloria just looked it up. In the middle of his re-election campaign, in the spring of 2012. The spring of 2012, and only after Vice President Joe Biden went on Meet the Press and got out ahead of the president, and said, he was for same-sex marriage, did this president evolve. It's the word he likes to choose, to use on this - and if you look at the public opinion points, this issue has moved at a speed of light issue or if you look at the history of women's rights and civil rights, they took, you know, many, many more years, many, many more legislative and court battles.

GLORIA BORGER, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL ANALYST: You know, it's so strange when you think of one week in American political history, for one president that major issues have been ratified or changed so, so quickly. The fight for ObamaCare has been long, and that is the president's issue. His involvement in gay marriage has been very small, by the way, because, as John was just saying, he's kind of a late-comer to the supporting of gay marriage.

(CROSSTALK)

KING: When they changed their position in the courts that did make a big deal. When he changed, when he changed, it became a big deal because the administration stopped defending the separation of the courts.

[11:25:00]

BORGER: But in this case, in this particular case, the court and the president had been lagging indicators of where public opinion has shifted. You know, there's always a question about what the Supreme Court should do. Should it do the heavy lift for the country as it did in the case of interracial marriage? Because not many people in the country supported interracial marriage, in a loving case when the supreme court said, "You know what, we need to let blacks and whites get married."

In this particular case, it wasn't as much of a heavy lift because public opinion shifted. Because, as the president was talking about those little pebbles, cases, Proposition 8, Defense of Marriage Act, people raising the legal issues to the point where it got to the Supreme Court and public opinion shifted largely because younger people said, "You know what? This isn't going to be my social wedge issue. This isn't what I want my campaigns to be about. I want to talk about other things." KING: The question now is how clean and massy, clean or messy is the next phase? As states have to face this, will some state attorney generals or governors object? Will justices of the peace object? How do you write the rules about what you can and cannot do in terms of your own religious exemptions and your religious differences and disagreements?

And, as we've seen, a very different tone between and among the presidential candidates. Some saying it's judicial tyranny, others saying "Look, I disagree, but the court has spoken." Without a doubt, Supreme Court justices and same-sex marriage will be a 2016...

(CROSSTALK)

BLITZER: There's going to be a lot, there's going to be a lot of stuff...

BORGER: No, there's going to be a debate on state rights. We're going to go back to the old question of state's rights which is what we heard from Scalia in his dissent.

BLITZER: All right. Let's get some more reaction. Paul Begala and S.E. Cupp are with us as well. Our political commentators, Paul, first to you. S.E. was very emotional, very passionate in supporting this historic decision by the United States Supreme Court. Your reaction?

PAUL BEGALA, CNN POLITCAL COMMENTATOR: Well, in what S.E. said, obviously, I agree with it. But, you know, I have for a long time. It's very brave for her to say that because within her party, still, as you noted, that is a minority view. 74 percent of democrats support marriage equality. 69 percent of independents support marriage, but only 35 percent of republicans do. And this is the problem the republicans have. Adapt or die.

They are going to continue to fight this. You're going to see - already, Scott Walker, Ted Cruz, probably other candidates for president, calling for constitutional amendments. You can overrule the Supreme Court. We, the people, can. It's our country.

So, some on the right are going to call for constitutional amendments. George W. Bush did, as John pointed out. It helped re-elect him in 2004 by calling for a constitutional amendment to discriminate against gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender Americans.

That's where this fight is going to go politically. But I think it's largely a losing proposition for the republicans. Smarter republicans and more sensible republicans like S.E. know that. But there is a die-hard faction that is not celebrating on the step of the Supreme Court right now. They're already working on trying to overturn the Supreme Court by amending the constitution. That's where the fight will go in the republican party.

BLITZER: Maybe a majority of republicans as S.E. but certainly not a majority of young republicans who have clearly have come around, like almost all other Americans, to equality for gay Americans. S.E. CUPP, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes, what I've been saying for

the past few years for the republican party is that this is really, in addition to the human stories like we're seeing today, this is really an issue of what I call math and manners.

The math, as everyone today has pointed out, the tremendous wave of support for gay marriage is just growing and is going to continue to grow. So mathematically in terms of demographics, in terms of voters, it's not a winning argument to be against this tidal wave.

On the manners side, look, you have people in the conservative movement within the republican party like log cabin republicans, gay republicans were fighting to advance conservative values. It's pretty bad manners for the party to tell them at large and to tell conservatives like me who are straight but support gay marriage, we'd rather not have you with us, you're no longer welcome in the party.

That's a pretty bad idea, too. So both on math and manners, the party apparatus has to figure out a way to deal with this. They can disagree with the Supreme Court ruling. They can say that this was not the purview of the Supreme Court, that this should be handled at the states. And religious conservatives can say, "I don't believe that gay marriage is moral." They can say that.

That does not change the facts on the ground, which are the wave of support is growing for this. Younger republicans are going to be more accepting of this. So you've got to, as a republican, whether you're running for president or running the RNC, you've got to pitch forward. And you've got to think about "OK. What are the next five years going to look like? What are the next ten years going to look like?" And I think the answer is pretty clear.

BLITZER: Standby guys. I want to go to Dana Bash. She's getting a lot of reaction from more than a dozen republican presidential candidates. Dana, how are they reacting to this historic landmark United States Supreme Court decision?