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Second Prison Worker Charged After Escape; Confederate Flags Fall in Other States. Aired 7-7:30a ET

Aired June 25, 2015 - 07:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: The guard allegedly carried frozen hamburger meat embedded with smuggled tools to the escapees, Richard Matt and David Sweat. Officials saying Palmer, who worked in the cell block that house the two convicts, was acting at the request of federal prison employee Joyce Mitchell, who hid the tools in the meat and brought it into the jail.

Palmer's lawyer telling CNN his client was unaware there were hacksaw blades and drill bits inside that meat, though the prosecution said he failed to screen the meat through a metal detector, violating prison policy.

[07:00:07] ANDREW BROCKWAY, ATTORNEY FOR GENE PALMER: He was conned by Joyce Mitchell. She duped him. He knows that he made a mistake and that he shouldn't have done what he did.

SANCHEZ: Police searching Palmer's home, finding tools officials say the guard gave to at least one of the prisoners, including a screwdriver and a wrench.

ANDREW WYLIE, CLINTON COUNTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY: There is some information that he allowed them to go into the back of the cells in the catwalk area and fix the breakers that were there.

And it was to help the breaker, fix the breakers so they could use their hot plates to cook their food.

SANCHEZ: That catwalk area, Matt and Sweat's escape path. Palmer telling investigators he supervised the prisoners doing the work and took the tools back before the end of his shift.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SANCHEZ: Gene Palmer posted $25,000 bail early this morning. He's due back in court later today.

One other note: officials say that he destroyed some paintings given to him by Richard Matt. Keep in mind, Chris, it is not allowed for prison guards to accept gifts from the prisoners.

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: Definitely going to be a lot of review of what was allowed and what was overlooked. And we'll get into all of that as the facts come out. Boris, thank you very much.

Let's get to Alisyn in South Carolina this morning -- Alisyn. ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: OK, Chris, I want to tell you about this

remarkable scene that we saw here at the statehouse behind me yesterday.

It was 98 degrees, and there was a heat index, meaning how hot it felt, it was 106. And yet, thousands of people came here. They stood in an hour-long line that snaked all the way around this building all the way around the block. They were people of all types, old, young, black, white. They were standing shoulder to shoulder. They were sharing sun umbrellas to shield themselves from the intensity. They were sharing bottled water. It was just this remarkable show of love and unity and respect for their friend and leader, Senator Clementa Pinckney.

There was a similar message of strength last night in Charleston, reclaiming that AME Church as a place of love, not violence.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CAMEROTA (voice-over): The parking lot full at Charleston's Emanuel AME Church late Wednesday. Bible study resuming in the same room where the massacre took place one week earlier. The interim pastor declaring, "This territory belongs to God."

Earlier in the day, thousands lined up in the sweltering heat as a horse-drawn caisson carried Reverend and State Senator Clementa Pinckney's body back to the statehouse, where he had served since the age of 23, to now lie in state.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Senator Pinckney was a good and kind man. he was sensitive to the needs of others.

CAMEROTA: Many in South Carolina waited to see if Governor Nikki Haley would use a legal loophole to temporarily bring down the flag for the day, but her office releasing a statement saying Haley, quote, "does not have the authority to remove the flag herself."

Meanwhile, Alabama's Republican governor did order the Confederate flag removed from its state capitol grounds. And officials in Boise, Idaho, removed the Mississippi flag from a display of all 50 in front of city hall.

REP. BENNIE THOMPSON (D), MISSISSIPPI: Let's take it away. Let's say we want nothing to do with it.

CAMEROTA: All this as the son of one of the nine victims calls South Carolina Senator Tim Scott to share his hopeful vision.

SEN. TIM SCOTT (R), SOUTH CAROLINA SENATOR: He said with great enthusiasm and energy, a sense of excitement, that this evil attack would lead to reconciliation or restoration and unity in our nation.

CAMEROTA: Senator Scott fighting back tears on the Senate floor, recounting that call.

SCOTT: Those were powerful words. (END VIDEOTAPE)

CAMEROTA: And funeral services begin today for two of the victims, Ethel Lance and Reverend Sharonda Singleton.

So I am joined now to talk about all of this by two former governors of South Carolina, Republican David Beasley and Democrat Jim Hodges. Both governors had their own flag battles while in office.

Gentlemen, thanks so much for being here. So you both fought this Confederate flag battle, and you both sort of failed on some level. What happened, Governor Beasley, when you tried?

DAVID BEASLEY (R), FORMER GOVERNOR OF SOUTH CAROLINA: Well, both of us really went after the issue that had to be resolved, and it takes time. These type of issues don't happen overnight. And when Governor Hodges came into office, they were able to put together a compromise. And at the time, it was -- the most important thing was to remove the Confederate flag from the dome.

CAMEROTA: Yes, but when you were trying to take it down, do you think that, in part, you lost your seat because of this fight?

BEASLEY: Well, I think some people say that, but I'm probably the last person to give advice on that, because some would say I'm the last living casualty of the Civil War.

CAMEROTA: I know that there is that thinking, because it was such a political third rail to talk about the Confederate flag in South Carolina.

And for you, as well. You tried to remove it from the dome, and you ended up, during your time, with it where it is positioned now, right here in front of the statehouse. In some ways, an even more prominent position. What happened when you tried to get it off the dome?

JIM HODGES (D), FORMER GOVERNOR OF SOUTH CAROLINA: Well, two or three things that we were trying to do. One was to get out of the dome and out of the chambers, out of the government buildings, because it was representative of the government at that time. Along with the Martin Luther King holiday.

And our effort was to try to remove it to a remote part that wasn't visible on the campus to a memorial, to a monument there. And we were not able because of the opposition to be able to get that done. And at the end of the day, the bipartisan group came together and said this is the first step, moving it to the monument. This is what we need to do right now. And we've got the King holiday and we got the flag off the dome, but we weren't able to get it completely removed.

CAMEROTA: Governor Beasley, do you think that we are now at a tipping point? Do you believe the flag that still flies here in front of the statehouse will sometime this summer be taken down?

BEASLEY: Well, that's why Governor Hodges and I are standing here together. The people of this state are coming together, not out of hate but out of love.

And when you saw demonstrated just a week or two ago what happened in Charleston, South Carolina, when the families and the friends of Senator Pinckney and those that were massacred, the total of the nine, it was the most amazing display of love.

And I think that flag is going to be put in a proper memorial, in a historical perspective, where it should be, out of love not out of hate. And I've just have been encouraged. Governor Hodges and I, we met with Governor Haley yesterday.

CAMEROTA: Yes, tell us about what. What did she tell you in that meeting?

BEASLEY: I think we all have been moved by the love that's been displayed. Jesus said, love your enemy. Do unto others you'll have them do unto you. This is the message that we want to come out of South Carolina.

And the intensity -- we were just talking about this -- the intensity of the debate today is nothing compared to what it was 15 years ago. But there is a fight still to be had. We're hoping that this will be resolved in the next two to three weeks.

CAMEROTA: Did Governor Haley, when you met with her yesterday, talk about why she chose not to take the flag down yesterday, just temporarily, while Senator Pinckney's body was lying in state?

HODGES: We didn't have a discussion about that. The discussion was about the end result, which was moving the flag off the statehouse grounds.

And I think we -- I think David is right. We've got a great deal of momentum now, and certainly the tragic incidents of last week have provided a sense of momentum in moving forward and trying to resolve this.

South Carolina is a much different state that it was 15, 20 years ago. It's much more diverse. And I think people are rallying around -- around this and seeing that we can make a dramatic gesture about how South Carolina has changed.

CAMEROTA: Governor Beasley, you know, there is this legal loophole where the flag can come down for cleaning or for wear and tear. And some have said that for tomorrow, for Senator Pinckney's funeral, when President Obama and Vice President Biden and Speaker John Boehner are here, that that's what should happen. If you were governor still, would you take it down temporarily?

BEASLEY: It might be a good day to clean it.

CAMEROTA: Some were saying it looks awfully dirty today. So you would do that. And you, as well?

HODGES: I would. Yes, absolutely. CAMEROTA: You know, Jim Webb, former U.S. senator, has said that on

the flip side, just saying that the flag is this symbol of sort of evil is also hurtful. There are people, as you well know -- you both fought this battle -- who believe that it honors their ancestors, who believe that it honors their ancestors' lives, their sacrifice in the war. What do you say to those people today who don't want it to come down?

BEASLEY: Well, I think when you study the history of when the flag was put up, right here behind this picture where we're standing is the Confederate memorial. That was put up in the late 1800s. And you had at that service, I don't know how many living soldiers from the war, and they did not put the flag up. The memorial is there for that purpose. The flag was put up in the 1960s.

My father was in the House of Representatives when it was put up. Governor Hollands was the governor at the time, a Democrat. So we are all in agreement now that this flag needs to be put in the proper place, but on the grounds of the capitol, under the two sovereign flags that represent all the people of South Carolina. Let's do it out of love, not out of hate.

CAMEROTA: Senator Hodges, do you believe that, for people who believe very strongly the flag should fly, and they are -- there's a misunderstanding of what the flag represents?

HODGES: Well, I think -- I think the flag is now owned by those who spew hate. When you look at what's gone on, the flag is a symbol of that. It's divisive. We look at what this young man has done.

And, you know, if people -- if people revere that flag, they can do it in their own home. They can do it in museums, but not on the grounds of our state capitol. It's there to represent every citizen of the state. It's offensive to anyone, it should be off the grounds.

CAMEROTA: Gentlemen, thanks so much for being here and being on NEW DAY. Your state is showing us such warm hospitality. It's really beautiful to see.

BEASLEY: And it may be hot hospitality.

CAMEROTA: Both. Yes, both. Thanks so much, gentlemen.

BEASLEY: Thank you.

CAMEROTA: Let's get back to New York and Michaela.

MICHAELA PEREIRA, CNN ANCHOR: All right. From there in South Carolina, we turn now to some headlines. And the terrible loss of life in Pakistan. A blistering heat wave in Pakistan that's killed over a thousand people. Hospitals are packed. They're having to rely on volunteers and donors for ice, water, even spare beds. Temperatures have reached into the triple digits for several days now. In addition, they're having to deal with hours'-long power outages and very little running water. And to make matters worse, that scorching heat is not likely to let up any time soon. CUOMO: Five former advisors to President Obama say the Iran nuclear

deal may not be a good one. The advisors expressing their concerns in an open letter. They say the White House may make too many concessions on the way to a deal. Secretary of State John Kerry says, if the final outstanding issues between Iran and the U.S. are not addressed, there will be no deal, adding America does not negotiate in public.

PEREIRA: The Boston Marathon bomber is speaking out for the first time, apologizing for the pain and suffering that he's caused. Dzhokhar Tsarnaev did not face the victims, but he expressed remorse for the lives he took and the irreparable damage he created. Though this apology is not sitting well with survivors, survivors like Lynn Julian. She said she found it to be more -- nothing more than just an act.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LYNN JULIAN, BOSTON MARATHON BOMBING SURVIVOR: He threw in an apology to the survivors that seemed insincere and just thrown in, because he was supposed to. And then ended, again, with Allah (ph) talking about leniency, implying that we should now be lenient to him.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PEREIRA: Twenty-one-year-old Tsarnaev made the comments Wednesday before officially being sentenced to death by execution.

CUOMO: One of the things that really bothered people in his remarks was that in the beginning he paraphrased Allah (ph) about being merciful, if you want to receive mercy. And he said, "That's why I'm apologizing." Well, that's not mercy. Mercy would have been sparing the people that he killed and maimed.

PEREIRA: And it's interesting to hear that so many people wanted to hear from him. But like that one woman said, I almost wonder if they'll be able to get the sound of his voice out of their hands now.

CUOMO: It's always a mixed reaction.

PEREIRA: It is. It is. Another terrible chapter closed.

CUOMO: All right. So we're taking another step in the investigation into where these two murderers are. Did corrections officer Gene Palmer really help murderers go free? Or is he just caught up in Joyce Mitchell's web, that employee who is certainly involved with these two escapees? We're going to talk to a former coworker of Palmer's, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[07:16:29] CUOMO: So now we have this second arrest going on. A second corrections officer. Really, the first corrections officer, the second employee at the Clinton facility has now been brought into the circle of what helped these two murderers escape. But the officer involved, Gene Palmer, has a lawyer, and that lawyer

insists he did not know about their plot to escape. And in fact, the prosecutor echoed the same right before the guard was charged.

Joining us now, former Sergeant Jeff Dumas. He is retired just last year from the Clinton Correctional Facility. He knows the officer involved. He knows the protocol very well.

Jeff, thank you very much for joining us. Are you surprised about the arrest? And do you think it is possible that the man you know would be involved in helping murderers escape from prison?

JEFF DUMAS, RETIRED SERGEANT, CLINTON CORRECTIONAL FACILITY: Good morning, Chris.

I am surprised at the arrest. But I know District Attorney Mr. Wiley does a great job. So we'll see what comes of that. I don't believe, personally, knowing Gene as long as I have and his work ethic, that he would be involved in helping any of these convicts escape.

CUOMO: You never heard of him being too easy or on the inside with any of the bad guys?

DUMAS: No, absolutely not. He was very professional. Always courteous, always did his job. He was, you know, a 28-year veteran. His evaluations are outstanding. He was a model employee.

CUOMO: Do you know Joyce Mitchell?

DUMAS: Not very -- I mean, I know of her, but being that she was a civilian, that she was a civilian and I dealt with security staff, I didn't have a lot to do with -- with her on a daily basis.

CUOMO: Any reputation?

DUMAS: Just -- not really. There was no connotations about anything with her, with inmates, anything like that. Just that, you know, she was a tailor shop worker. We all knew Lyle, her husband that worked there. So there was never anything like that, any under -- anything underlying or suspicions.

CUOMO: You say that you don't even know if it's possible if these rumors of hanky-panky could have been pulled off between her and the inmates. Why?

DUMAS: I say that because the shop that she worked in, I heard, you know, stories about a closet, all that. The tailor shop that she worked in is -- well, all the shops are basically concrete block walls all the way around. The format of the tailor shops is very open, so that the officer who sits up on a podium can -- can observe all the inmates at one time.

And the civilian staff sits next to him or they are out walking on the floor, helping the inmates do whatever they need to do with tailoring of the clothes. So the officer observes that civilian at all times. He doesn't leave

the shop. And any time that the inmates leave the shop, they all leave together, and he escorts them.

CUOMO: So the...

DUMAS: So there really isn't a lot of time to be alone.

CUOMO: So the idea that she was messing around or the idea that she was keeping them after everybody else left, you don't buy it?

DUMAS: Oh, yes. No. No. For -- she is not -- they are not allowed to stay after the officer has to escort all of them. There's nobody left behind, because we could have a hostage situation. We could have a rape. We could have anything. No inmates are left behind.

[07:20:13] CUOMO: So the two main allegations: one, he passed the frozen meat with the blades in it without putting it through the metal detector. Why would you pass the meat to the guys? Why would you not put it through the metal detector?

DUMAS: Well, that's something Mr. Palmer will have to answer for. I mean, he is -- like I said, I mean, he has been there for 28 years. This lady -- he works in that building, so he obviously knows her a lot better than I do. Or -- and the rest of the staff.

So if your coworker comes to you and asks you to do something, and it is simply something that may be -- you know, I'm not there, but maybe she said, "Hey, he left this behind." Whatever the case may be. Mr. Palmer may have just said, "Oh, OK, not a problem," and just walked it over. Not even thinking about, hey, there could be, you know, tools for an escape in here.

It's just -- it's not something that would cross your mind when a coworker asks you to do something.

CUOMO: And you don't automatically think...

DUMAS: I feel horrible for the guy.

CUOMO: And you don't automatically think to put everything through the metal detector?

DUMAS: Not if it was -- not something as simple as that. You know, for the most part, everybody usually goes through there. But there are other ways to go through that officers have access to, you know, to go through the prison. The inmates have to go through it, and they are all put through it. But the officers can go any which way they want.

So, you know, Gene may have just thought, hey, it's just hamburger or sausage, whatever it was and just quickly brought it over.

CUOMO: Two more quick aspects.

DUMAS: I feel horrible for the guy. CUOMO: One, he gave them tools to help them work on some fuse box

near where they were staying. Do you think that that was something that is not ordinarily done?

DUMAS: The fuse boxes that are in the back of the cells, some of them, fortunately, in some of the sub-lots, have all been moved to the front of the companies where the officers have access to them.

This block has them -- one fuse box on the back of each cell. So if he allowed them to do that, the inmates are trained by the state to work on everything. So it really wouldn't be a big deal.

However, they should not have been allowed to have possession of those tools for any length of time. Go back there, fix the fuse and come back out. It takes maybe a minute and a half, at the most, to go back and reset the fuse, just like you would a fuse box at home, and come off.

CUOMO: The last...

DUMAS: So I'm not really sure of the whole story with that.

CUOMO: The last question is, it seems like there was a laxity going on here, that there were allowances being made, that people were too friendly, that the employees and the convicts were having too much of an intimacy, and I don't mean just sexually, just in terms of their rapport.

DUMAS: Right.

CUOMO: Do you mean there's going to be a bigger story that comes out here, that in a max facility, there should be a little bit of a tighter rein held on the convicts? Or do you think that that's an exaggeration?

DUMAS: No, Chris, I think you're right. I hope -- I hope that it does come out that there needs to be a tighter rein. There's a lot of us over the years that have asked for that, but the state's position is not that way. They want them out of their cells. They want them doing things. The only way to do that is having interaction with those civilian employees.

The infrastructure of the facility itself as far as the catwalks and all that, they use inmates' labor in order to fix all that, because they don't want to pay a civilian or somebody else to come in and do that each and every time a fuse blows or something like that.

So there needs to be a tighter rein, absolutely. Those convicts should not be taught the electrical. They shouldn't be taught the infrastructure of the facility, even if it is to fix a simple pipe. It should be a civilian that's there. They should be the ones that fix it, not inmates. They shouldn't have access to all these tools. If they want to sew clothing together, that's fine.

But come on. You've got to pull back a little bit. Actually, treat them -- I mean, you have murderers, rapists and child molesters, and you're worried about them learning a trade? Come on, that's too much.

CUOMO: Jeff Dumas, thank you very much for the perspective on Gene and what's going on in the Clinton facility. Appreciate it -- Mick.

DUMAS: Thank you, Chris. Have a good day.

CUOMO: You, too.

PEREIRA: Not in my house. President Obama taking on a heckler at the White House. John King will have the president's reaction. "Inside Politics" ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[07:28:53] CUOMO: A big headline coming out of the manhunt: charges for a second New York prison worker stemming from the escape of Richard Matt and David Sweat. His name is Gene Palmer, and he faces charges for allegedly loaning tools to the pair before their escape and destroying evidence after they vanished. His lawyers say Palmer's only mistake was trusting Joyce Mitchell. Police are concerned Matt and Sweat may have taken guns from an upstate cabin where their DNA was found. The search is now in day 20.

PEREIRA: Calls to remove the Confederate flag continue to spread. National Park Service gift shops and the College of Charleston in South Carolina the latest to join the chorus. Meanwhile, church shooting suspect Dylann Roof is expected to face federal hate crime charges. Thousands, meanwhile, paying their respects to pass to slain Pastor Clementa Pinckney Wednesday. Bible study has resumed in the very same room where that massacre took place.

CUOMO: All eyes on the Supreme Court today. The justices scheduled to issue key decisions. There are actually seven cases left on the docket, including potential blockbuster rulings concerning same-sex marriage and Obamacare. The court is expected to release opinions on Friday and next week, as well.

PEREIRA: All right. A lot of political discussions brewing, so let's get to "Inside Politics" with Mr. John King on this -- wow, it's Friday eve. It just occurred to me, John.

JOHN KING, CNN CORRESPONDENT/ANCHOR: Friday eve. I woke up yesterday thinking it was Thursday, but today actually is Thursday.

PEREIRA: It is actually Thursday today.