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Government Officials in Some Southern States Calling for Removal of Confederate Flag from State Grounds; Interview with Congressman James Clyburn; Two Escaped New York Prison Inmates Still at Large; Dzhokhar Tsarnaev to be Sentenced to Death; White House Changing Its Tough Hostage Policy; Police Combing Area West of Prison for Escapees. Aired 8-8:30a ET

Aired June 24, 2015 - 08:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[08:00:00] CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: As you can see, Alisyn is out of the house in Columbia, South Carolina, the state's capital to see what's going on, because the South Carolina situation has become the epicenter for the anti-Confederate flag movement. And it is sweeping the south. There's some seven states whose flag may have some kind of Confederate influence. So what's going to happen? What are lawmakers going to do there? Will they take the lead from their governor, agreeing overwhelmingly to take up the debate? That's where it stands right now, Alisyn. They say they're going to debate it. The question is when.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: Absolutely. And we'll be asking our guests about that. And Chris, the flag in question, it flies three yards behind me over my shoulder. In 2000 that flag was moved from on top of the state house dome to its current position behind the Confederate War Memorial. But in so doing lawmakers in some ways made it more prominent. It now stands directly in front of the state house. It's the first thing that you see when you walk up. So today South Carolina and other states are debating what to do about this.

CNN is covering from every angle, and Ana Cabrera is with me here. I know you've been looking at the sort of seismic shift in positions and attitudes in just the past few days on this.

ANA CABRERA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Right, because, Alisyn, this really is so much more than about a flag. It's about racism and getting rid of a symbol that to so many represents a racist mentality that is part of this country's roots, unfortunately. And so what we're seeing are more and more calls to get that flag down. But it does still fly right here in front of the state capital. So the fight isn't over yet.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

HILLARY CLINTON, FORMER U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: It shouldn't fly anywhere.

(APPLAUSE)

CABRERA: Presidential hopeful Hillary Clinton applauding the growing momentum for the removal of the Confederate flag in South Carolina. CLINTON: Recognizing it as a symbol of our nation's racist past that

has no place in our present.

CABRERA: On Tuesday hundreds of protesters demanded the flag be removed in the wake of the vicious murders at the Emanuel AME church here in Charleston.

SEN. PAUL THURMOND, (R) CHARLESTON: Our ancestors were literally fighting to continue to keep human beings as slaves.

CABRERA: Inside South Carolina lawmakers overwhelmingly voting to allow debate on a bill to do just that. All except 10 lawmakers digging in their heels voting against it, and 10 who did not vote. State representative William Chumley says we shouldn't let hatred dictate how we feel.

REP. WILLIAM CHUMLEY, (R) SOUTH CAROLINA: We're focusing on the wrong thing here. We need to be focusing on the nine families.

CABRERA: Confederate flag images still prominent in a few states across the country may soon be no more. In Mississippi where the Confederate battle flag is a part of the official state flag, the speaker of Mississippi's state house is calling for it to be removed. Georgia now weighing a redesign of state sponsored Sons of Confederate Veterans license plates featuring the flag.

But governors in Tennessee, North Carolina, and Virginia are already saying they're support pulling the plates from production entirely.

GOV. TERRY MCAULIFFE, (D) VIRGINIA: Today I'm calling for actions to be taken for the removal of Confederate flag.

CABRERA: This as eBay, Amazon, and Walmart, among other big name retailers, are banning the flag from their shelves.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CABRERA: It's still unclear when lawmakers will take up the legislation regarding removing the flag. We talked with one Republican representative who has sponsored some of the legislation, at least one version of the bill to remove the flag. He tells us they're likely to focus on this issue after 4th of July. But right now, today it's about the victims. State Senator Clementa Pinckney will be lying in state inside the capitol rotunda this afternoon, Alisyn. We've been trying to find out whether the flag will still be flying during that time, and at this point it's unknown.

CAMEROTA: It's been a very emotional week here obviously and today will be no different as he lies in state there. Ana, thanks so much for all of that background.

Chris, we'll be talking more, but we want to go back to New York now for some other stories.

CUOMO: All right, we're going to be looking at what happens next with the flag. We're also going to take a look at what happened when the cops caught up to the Charleston terrorist after all. And now we know. CNN's Alina Machado has the video. What do we see? What do we learn?

ALINA MACHADO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Chris, the video shows just how calm and cooperative Dylann Roof was just hours after police say he killed nine people.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Confirmed it is the suspect from the Charleston shooting.

MACHADO: Newly released footage from police dash cams along with 911 dispatch calls give a fuller picture of the moments leading up to the capture of accused South Carolina mass killer Dylann Roof.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Black Hyundai, white male traveling westbound.

MACHADO: Police were on the lookout for Roof after the killing of nine people inside the historic African-American church last Wednesday. The next day an officer in North Carolina some 250 miles away received a tip from a woman driving to work saying she spotted Roof partly because of his hair. The officer then called 911.

[08:05:11] UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I know it's strange, but I just got a call on my personal cell phone. A lady called a friend of mine and said she was behind the car matching the description of the Charleston killer. It had a South Carolina tag on it, white male, early 20s, with a bowl haircut.

MACHADO: The dash cam video shows police closing in, ending the 14- hour manhunt. You can see the moment police order Roof to step out of the vehicle, placing his hands on the top of the car. Roof was checked for weapons but none were found on his body. However, according to the arresting officer, a search of the car revealed Roof was traveling with a Glock semiautomatic handgun on the backseat.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MACHADO: Now, officers found that gun in the backseat underneath a pillow, suggesting that perhaps Roof spent the night in the car following the shooting. Meanwhile, a federal law enforcement source tells CNN that Roof purchased that weapon at a store, a gun store in West Columbia, South Carolina, not far from where he lived. Alisyn?

CAMEROTA: OK, Alina, thanks so much for all of that background. We want to bring in now Congressman James Clyburn. The Mother Emanuel Church is in his district and he knew all of the victims of this massacre. Congressman, thanks for being with us this morning.

REP. JAMES CLYBURN, (D) SOUTH CAROLINA: Thank you so much for having me.

CAMEROTA: We're so sorry for your loss. You were close friends with five of the victims. CLYBURN: Yes, I was. Dan Simmons was just a very good friend over

the years. Ms. Middleton-Doctor, her father was one of my closest friends. He was an elder in the AME church and called himself my AME campaign management. And I will be speaking this Saturday at the service of Cynthia Hurd. She was one of my daughter's best friends, a librarian like my wife. And it's going to be tough for me on Saturday.

CAMEROTA: To lose so many friend and so many people in this community in one horrible massacre. It's really obviously impacted permanently the town of Charleston. What do you think about what's happening today where Senator Clementa Pinckney will be lying in state here. And Governor Nikki Haley, there is a legal loophole, as you know, where temporarily she could take down this flag that flies over our shoulder. Is that important to do today?

CLYBURN: I think it is. I would say to the governor and everybody else, there is precedence for this. Bob McNeal when he was governor took the flag down one time. I'm not too sure what his intentions where, but when he was called on it, he said it was being taken down for repairs. And so I would hope that would happen here today as well.

CAMEROTA: What do you say to the 73 percent of South Carolinians -- this, mind you, was a poll taken, a Quinnipiac poll last year, 2014. A poll has not been taken as far as we know since the massacre. But back then they felt that it was a part of the state's history and that the flag didn't need to come down or be removed from in front of the state capital. What do you say to those people who think that it should still fly?

CLYBURN: Well, it is a part of the state's history. Nobody's arguing that point. It is a symbol, though, of a time in our history that all of us have been trying to get beyond. We have all kinds of symbols here in the museum that's a part of our history. I don't object to us having slave shanties in the proper perspective, but not on the state house grounds. And so this symbol belongs in a museum. All of us should study it. I have. I know the history of this flag probably as well as anybody.

CAMEROTA: So is the history about people's ancestors that fought proudly for what they believed in? Or is it something more painful?

CLYBURN: It's about my ancestors who served as slaves, and this flag was used as a symbol to preserve that legacy for the state. So there are two sides to this flag's history, but none of it is South Carolina's history. This is the flag of northern Virginia that's flying over here now. No South Carolinians fought under that flag. That was Robert E. Lee's flag.

And the interesting thing is nobody in northern Virginia or anywhere in Virginia celebrates their flag. So why are we doing so in South Carolina? I would hope that South Carolinians would really study the flag and find out it's just as erroneous to be there to our history as it is to our heritage. CAMEROTA: In 2013 Governor Nikki Haley's spokesperson said that

outside groups can reject the flag, but here in the state she was comfortable with it flying. She said that in fact removing it was not part of the governor's agenda. This week Nikki Haley felt very differently. She unequivocally said the flag should come down. You were standing on the stage with her when she decided that. How do you believe she so quickly came to this new position?

[08:10:09] CLYBURN: Well, I think that all of us mature in our offices. It is best for an elected official to grow into the office than to try to bring the office down to them. I think she's grown into the office, and I congratulate her for it.

CAMEROTA: Yesterday the general assembly here decided that they would take up the measure of the flag, they would debate it at some point this summer. They weren't scheduled to come back until the end of the year. But they said they would come back this summer. Can you imagine, is there a scenario where there's a July 4th decision about this flag?

CLYBURN: Absolutely, I could imagine that. I wouldn't have a week ago. But I can imagine that today.

CAMEROTA: Two-thirds -- it needs to be passed in both chambers by two-thirds. Now, there is resistance. There are some people who are very vocally against moving this flag. Do you think that it will pass and that this flag over our shoulder will be moved?

CLYBURN: I think it will pass. Now there's a way to get around the two-thirds, and I think we should get around the two-thirds.

CAMEROTA: Why?

CLYBURN: Because we should repeal that heritage act, because if we only remove that flag from here and allow it to continue to fly at the citadel, allow it considering all these other things that continue to take place in cities and towns all over this state, that will be a half-victory. We should go all the way, get rid of this heritage act, and let's march into the future together.

CAMEROTA: People say that realistically this is just a symbol. If this flag comes down, then what happens to race relations?

CLYBURN: Those two flags on top of the state house, the United States flag, stars and stripes, our palmetto state flag, those are symbols, but they're the kind of symbols that bring honor to our existence.

CAMEROTA: Thank you. Thank you so much.

CLYBURN: Thank you.

CAMEROTA: We know this is a hard week for you. Thank you, we appreciate it.

Let's go back to Michaela in New York. MICHAELA PEREIRA, CNN ANCHOR: All right, we'll give you a look at some more news stories and we'll go back to South Carolina a little bit later.

Two convicted killers are still on the loose in upstate New York but could face new challenges while evading police -- footwear. A source tells CNN one of the escaped convicts may be barefoot after leaving a pair of boots behind at a cabin where DNA from Richard Matt and David Sweat was found. CNN's Boris Sanchez has the latest this morning for us from Cadyville, New York. Good to see you again, Boris.

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Michaela. Officials here are hoping for better weather today. It's been raining over the past few days and a source told us yesterday that it's been slowing down the investigation.

Meantime, we're learning more about Joyce Mitchell's involvement in helping these men escape. A law enforcement source telling CNN that she admitted to hiding hacksaw blades inside a frozen chunk of hamburger meat that was passed into the prison. In fact the source telling us that she convinced the guard Gene Palmer to pass that meat through without going through a metal detector. Palmer is of course is on administrative leave. His attorney says that Joyce Mitchell duped him into doing that.

We're also hearing that Mitchell tried to gain favors for these two inmates by offering baked goods to coworkers of hers. At one point she even asked that David Sweat's cell be moved next to Richard Matt's. Some intriguing details there.

As to whether or not one of the escaped inmates is barefoot, this morning, a law enforcement source told me that is not likely. The terrain is to difficult to move in, especially without shoes on, it's likely he wouldn't have gotten very far after breaking into that cabin. We are expecting officials here to hold a press conference at noon. We will bring it to you live on CNN. Chris?

CUOMO: Boris, thank you very much. Happening just hours from now the marathon bomber is going to be formally sentenced to death. The question is, will he break his silence? We have CNN's Deborah Feyerick live in Boston for us. What do you know up there, my friend?

DEBORAH FEYERICK, CNN CORRESPONDENT: And Chris, Dzhokhar Tsarnaev absolutely has the choice if he wants to make a statement before he is sentenced to death row by a judge. The judge will let him know exactly which prison he will be sent to live out his final days or even years if there is an appeal.

So far his lawyers have filed a number of papers under seal. It's not clear whether any of them constitute a formal appeal. And clearly because anything today there's a concern by his attorneys that could jeopardize the process.

As for remorse, whether he would say he's sorry, well, he sat through 150 witnesses and never seemed to shed any sort of tear or show any real emotion. And now today we are expecting about two dozen victims and family members to speak for about two to five minutes each. They will be the family of the youngest victim, eight-year-old Martin Richard. I spoke to one woman earlier today, a survivor. She said a lot of people really do feel the need to say something, the address, Tsarnaev, to address the judge. As for her, she said she's got simply nothing left to say. Michaela?

[08:15:07] PEREIRA: Yes, a lot of emotion I'm sure they're all feeling. Well, we send our best thoughts to them, to be sure.

The White House today expected to announce a change to its tough hostage policy that will affect families of hostages and how they deal with captors.

CNN's Sunlen Serfaty live now at the White House with he latest for us on this.

They're changing their policy.

SUNLEN SERFATY, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Michaela, this is in part due to the response the administration has received from family member who have said that the administration's response has been insensitive, inconsistent and appalling at times.

Now, President Obama will meet with the families of U.S. hostages today here at the White House and he'll tell them directly these changes the White House will announce. Among them they will now no longer threaten the families who choose to pay private ransoms to get their loved ones back with criminal prosecution. Also, it gives the government more leeway to negotiate with terrorist organizations. It also sets up this so-called hostage fusion cell to better communicate with the families.

Now, for some families, these changes will just not go far enough. The wife of Warren Weinstein. He was a hostage that was held by al Qaeda and killed earlier this year. She said of the administration's support, quote, "The information we received over three and a half years was inconsistent at best and utterly disappointing. Our benchmark for this review's success will be the actions arising from it, more than the specifics findings. And some lawmakers on Capitol Hill are already slamming this, calling it pathetic window dressing in a bipartisan group in the House and Senate, with proposed legislation, Chris, that will call for an independent director to oversee this -- Chris.

CUOMO: Let's see if that actually happens. Sunlen, thank you very much.

In other news, French President Hollande says he will not tolerate threats to the nation's security. That's after a WikiLeaks report saying the NSA spied on him and two former French presidents. The American ambassador to France has been summoned for a meeting. That meeting not expected to be cordial.

Meanwhile, the White House says it isn't spying on President Hollande and won't in the future, but sidestepped any mention of the past. CAMEROTA: I want to ask a question to all of you, have you ever sent a regrettable e-mail? Fear not. You can now get it back if you are fast enough. Google announcing a wider roll-out of the undo send feature on Gmail. Already been available to some users.

This feature allows users. It allows you essentially to take back an e-mail. But you have to do it quickly. You have a 30 second window at most. Some corporate accounts still do not have the feature.

I don't want to ask this of anybody specifically on this set, but do you think there's anybody that might ever find that feature useful, Chris?

CUOMO: I generally act out of anger. I think --

PEREIRA: No, you don't.

CUOMO: I think the real concern is the "reply all" when I mean to just reply to you.

PEREIRA: Yes, you've done that one.

(CROSSTALK)

PEREIRA: Should we give a call to Google and ask them to work on that next for us?

CUOMO: Thirty second is not enough because everything happens instantaneously now. You know, it's like your life --

PEREIRA: That's so true. Now we have to figure out how to undo the tweet in 30 seconds.

CUOMO: How's it working so far?

All right. We've got new information for you in the manhunt on Richard Matt and David Sweat. There are leads, revelations. The question is, how do they keep staying a step ahead of police? We have expert insight for you.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:22:29] CUOMO: Day 19 now in the search for two convicted killers. DNA was found in a cabin. That's been the huge break so far. And they also left a pair of boots in that cabin where the DNA was found. So, that's helpful.

So, let's bring in John Cuff, the former head of the Northeast Fugitive Investigation Division at the U.S. Marshal Service.

So, barefoot -- the guy's not barefoot. The guy left a pair of boot there is. Maybe he had something else. But it's safe to say I'm sure that he's running around with something on his feet. Yes?

JOHN CUFF, FORMER HEAD, N.E. FUGITIVE INVESTIGATION DIV., U.S. MARSHALS: I think so. Hopefully -- not hopefully, but maybe he would have come across another pair of shoes out there.

CUOMO: Right. That's why -- he'd have to be nuts to do it any other way, especially on that terrain. The better foot question is, why do these guys seem a step ahead? Is that a fair reprisal, or it's just very tough going up there?

CUFF: You know, that's, first, it's a hard assessment because even though that DNA was found in a cabin, you can't really determine how long ago it was left there, OK? Coupled with the sighting of someone running from the cabin, how many people would have been up there running from that cabin. I mean, that kind of closes that two-week gap.

So, I think time is on law enforcement's side. Law enforcement has the advantage with time right now. Obviously, you've got challenges with the environment, the wooded area and so son. It's going to set back the time a little bit.

CUOMO: Right, I think those challenges may be somewhat underestimated. We have the sheriff on, Favro, who's up from there, who's the custodian of Joyce Mitchell, right now, the employee.

He's like we've got a thousand people up here. We got the manpower. But no professional trackers, no hunters from that area are involved. Why not? Why wouldn't you call on those local and professional assets to help with terrain that you don't know and slow-going?

CUFF: Well, Chris, what I saw reported about the Forest Service people being there. But aside from what you're saying, these trackers -- I guess -- I'm only assuming.

CUOMO: Do they ever use that kind of resource? He said we don't want some of these thousand law enforcement guys come upon someone they don't know and something bad happen. You could just give them a vest that says sheriff on it or something.

CUFF: Well, my suspicion is they don't want to put them in harm's way. You could probably use them as consultants at least to assist on the search. That would be a tactical decision by the tactical commanders up there.

CUOMO: Now, another point of intrigue. Joyce Mitchell, the employee who was definitely involved with these guys by her own admission, says, I gave them hacksaw blades in frozen chunks of meat.

[08:25:01] Big shocker there is these guys get to cook their own food. Yes, in that segregated housing they were in, that was one of the privileges. And that she gave it to a guard and she didn't think he knew what she was giving them.

How does that work? Take me through that, like how does that work that this guy who's a corrections officer takes a big piece of frozen meat and just gives it to somebody, doesn't think about it?

CUFF: Well, it sounds like they -- what I know about that Dannemora and that area up there, the prisoner population counts towards the town population of 5,000 people. Sounds like from what I saw, I think 1,400 people from the town work in the prison. So, it's fair to say a lot of them probably know one another. And for whatever reason -- it's just an assumption.

CUOMO: Familiarity bred a little bit of laxity there on his side.

CUFF: Yes, I mean, it sounds like he played -- she played everybody on this thing.

CUOMO: Right. And then we hear that, good, that's the next point. Oh, she was given baked goods to security guards all the time to get favors. Well, if that was so well known, if it was so well-know, you know, that this kind of stuff was going on, why didn't the people who need to know that kind of stuff know it and crack down on it? Does this go to the kind of forgiveness of things that you allow just to keep the peace inside?

CUFF: Chris, that's the million dollar question, I think, right here. How did she get away with playing all of these people? And without any -- just from accounts that are out there even moving their cells around and things like that, you would think that would be funneled up the food chain.

CUOMO: Right? You made a good point. John Cuff, you just made a good point. It's like when they catch these guys, if they put them back in this prison, which is likely, boy, are they going to be hated. You might think they'd be celebrated because they made it on the outside for a while, but so many of their privileges are going to be gone. They're not going to be cooking anymore.

CUFF: It seems like they're cracking down on all the prisons I would think.

CUOMO: So, these guys, you know, they're going to get there and come up fast.

John, thank you very much for helping along in this.

CUFF: Thank you, Chris.

CUOMO: Mick, over to you.

PEREIRA: And not to mention the prison guard will be looking at them with a lot more scrutiny.

All right. Ahead here, Donald Trump surging in the polls. New numbers show a surprising boost. The question is, can Donald keep up the momentum? We'll take a look.

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