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Confederate Flag Debate Sweeps South; Police Release Video of Church Massacre Suspect's Arrest; Dr. Ben Carson Weighs in on Confederate Flag Battle; Source: Fugitive Convict May Be Barefoot; Autopsy: Freddie Gray Suffered 'High-Energy Injury'. Aired 7-7:30a ET

Aired June 24, 2015 - 07:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


ANA CABRERA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: But, of course, the flag still stands here in front of the state capitol today. So, this fight isn't over yet. .

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

HILLARY CLINTON (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: It shouldn't fly anywhere.

[07:00:02] CABRERA: Presidential hopeful Hillary Clinton applauding the growing momentum for the removal of the Confederate flag in South Carolina.

CLINTON: Recognizing it as a symbol of our nation's racist past that has no place in our present.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Take it down!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Take it down!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Take it down!

CABRERA (voice-over): Hundreds of protesters demanded the Confederate flag be removed Tuesday in the wake of the vicious murders at the Emanuel AME Church in Charleston.

SEN. PAUL THURMOND (R), CHARLESTON, SOUTH CAROLINA STATE LEGISLATURE: Our ancestors were literally fighting to continue to keep human beings as slaves.

CABRERA: Inside, South Carolina lawmakers overwhelmingly voting to allow a debate on a bill to do just that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. Bennett?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Aye.

CABRERA: All except ten lawmakers, digging in their heels, voting against it. And 10 who did not vote.

CABRERA: State Representative William Chumley says we shouldn't let hate groups dictate how we feel. REP. WILLIAM CHUMLEY (R), SOUTH CAROLINA STATE LEGISLATURE: We're

focusing on the wrong thing here. We need to be focusing on the nine families.

CABRERA: Confederate flag images, still prominent in a few states across the country, may soon be no more.

REP. EARL BANKS (D), MISSISSIPPI: People use the flag as a symbol of hatred.

CABRERA: In Mississippi, where the Confederate battle flag is a part of the official state flag, the speaker of Mississippi's statehouse is calling for it to be removed.

Georgia now weighing a redesign of state-sponsored Sons of Confederate Veterans license plates featuring the flag. But governors in Tennessee, North Carolina and Virginia are already saying they'll support pulling the plates from production entirely.

GOV. TERRY MCAULIFFE (D), VIRGINIA: Today, I'm calling for actions to be taken for the removal of the Confederate flag.

CABRERA: This, as eBay, Amazon and Wal-Mart, among other big-name retailers, are banning the flag from their shelves.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CABRERA: It's unclear exactly when the legislature is going to take up this legislation regarding removing the flag. But we did speak with one Republican representative who's sponsoring a version of the legislation, and he tells us they're likely to focus on it after Fourth of July.

But today, it really is all about the victims. Alisyn, as you know, Clementa Pinckney was a state senator here. He will be lying in state inside the Capitol Rotunda today while everybody pays their respects. It's still unclear whether the flag, the Confederate flag, will be flying during that time.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: What an emotional day here. We know you'll be watching it for us. Thanks so much for all of that.

So there's also a clearer picture emerging now of the pursuit and capture of the confessed killer in the Charleston church massacre. Police releasing dash cam video and audio from 911 emergency calls. CNN's Alina Machado is live in Charleston with more on that part of the story -- Alina.

ALINA MACHADO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Alisyn, when you look at the video, you look at how calm Dylann Roof was, considering that just hours earlier, he had walked into this church and killed nine people.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Confirmed it is the suspect in the Charleston shooting. MACHADO (voice-over): Newly-released footage from police dash cams,

along with 911 dispatch calls, give a fuller picture of the moments leading up to the capture of accused South Carolina mass killer Dylann Roof.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Black Hyundai, white male traveling northbound.

MACHADO: Police were on the lookout for Roof after the killing of nine people inside an historic African-American church last Wednesday. The next day, an officer in South Carolina, some 250 miles away, received a tip from a woman driving to work, saying she spotted Roof partly because of his hair. The officer then called 911.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I know it's strange, but I just got a call on my personal cell phone. A lady called a friend of mine and said that she was behind the car matching the description of the Charleston killer. It had a South Carolina tag on it. White male, early 20s with a bowl haircut.

MACHADO: The dash cam shows police closing in, ending the 14-hour manhunt. You can see the moment police ordered Roof to step out of the vehicle, placing his hands on the top of the car. Roof is checked for weapons, but none were found on his body.

However, according to the arresting officer, a search of the car revealed Roof was traveling with a Glock semiautomatic handgun in the backseat.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MACHADO: A federal law enforcement source tells CNN Roof had purchased that weapon at a gun store in West Columbia, South Carolina, not far from where he lived -- Chris.

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: All right. Thank you very much, Alina. Appreciate it.

Let's bring in Dr. Ben Carson. He is a Republican candidate for president, as you know. He's also, as you know, the former director for pediatric neurosurgery at Johns Hopkins.

It's very good to have you, Doctor, on the show as always. A lot of reaction to what you wrote about the situation. What is your message to those of the conservative wing of the party who, when this first happened, said why does it have to be called a hate crime? Why do you have to make everything about race? If it was a hate crime at all, it's against Christians. And why do you have to go after this flag now? It's about heritage; it's not about hate.

What is your message to these people?

[07:05:00] DR. BEN CARSON (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Well, you know, it's obvious that we still have some problems as a society, and we need to start thinking about what we can do about it.

You know, when we moved into our home in Maryland, which is in a rural area, one of the neighbors put up a big Confederate flag on the barn, I guess as a message to us. And one of our friends, who's a general, black general coming over. And he came through the drive, and he saw that. He turned around, and he said, "I'm in the wrong place."

But the interesting thing is all the other neighbors immediately put up American flags and shamed this individual; and they took it down. And really, that's what we need to be thinking about. You know, how -- we are social beings as human beings. Let's send the right messages to each other, and I think that will take care of a lot of our problems. Let's not just turn a blind eye to things.

CUOMO: And what do you see in that blindness? Why do you think that there are -- this is this motivation to blame the media or the left or whomever about calling things hate crimes and making things about race? What do you see as motivating that?

CARSON: Well, you know, I'm very concerned about the division-ness that's going on in our society. You know, we have a war on women. We have race wars, income wars, age wars, religious wars, you name it. People are, you know, stoking the flames of controversy and division, and it's almost making us look like we have a dysfunctional society. And we're better than that.

And we, the American people, have to recognize that just because we might have a disagreement about something doesn't make us mortal enemies. It doesn't make us people who should be wanting to destroy the reputation or the business of our fellow Americans. We already have people outside, like radical jihadists, who want to destroy us. Why should we engage in destroying ourselves?

CUOMO: And do you see it as instructive that, while you came out right away -- and yes, you're the only African-American running for president right now -- but you came out right away and called this for what it is and saw the flag for what it is and what should be done with removing that symbol. But a lot of your competitors did not. They brushed it off as strictly states' rights. Governor Huckabee said this is a distraction; this is a gotcha question; this has nothing to do with being president. How do you understand those type of responses?

CARSON: Well, I think everybody responds in a way that they feel is the most acceptable. And I never tried to predict or analyze what other people are thinking. It's probably better just to ask them.

But, I think what we, as Americans, once again, have to keep in mind is that this is a pluralistic society, and we have to live together. And that means we have to identify things that are wrong. We have to call them what they are. Because you'll never be able to deal with them, if you're not willing to call them what they are. Recognize that we do have a problem, and let's work on solving it.

CUOMO: But that's -- doesn't that also go, by extension of analogy, to the people who are fighting these ideas? Isn't a part of leadership saying to people who don't want to call what happened in this Charleston church a hate crime, calling them out on that and showing them that that is not a time to play politics and say that race colors too much of the public discussion.

CARSON: well, obviously, I want to make sure that people understand that I do recognize...

CUOMO: You certainly do from what you've written and what you've said, sir.

CARSON: And I think, hopefully, others will come to that understanding. And let's talk about it. Because it is going to be our civil discussions that help us through all of these various issues of division in our country. And if we don't address them, we wind up with more people like Dylann Roof.

CUOMO: And let me hold you to your own test here on a different level. Many people are equating what the Confederate flag stands for with the gay pride flag and saying, "Hey, that flag should be taken down, too, because all it represents is hatred toward Christians and people who don't favor gay rights." Do you see an equation between those two symbols?

CARSON: Well, you know, I decided that I really wanted to talk about the Confederate flag during this time.

CUOMO: But you just said, Doctor, that you cannot avoid these difficult situations, because that's how they fester. You must deal with what is difficult to deal with. That's part of leadership. You just said that about the other issue.

CARSON: Like I said, if you want to talk about that, let's do that on a different segment.

CUOMO: So the discomfort of that conversation, you feel it distracts from the Confederate flag, or it's just not something you want to handle?

CARSON: Let's do it at another time and specifically address that issue.

CUOMO: All right, so we'll leave that for another time.

Let me ask you something. You may find yourself on a stage with Donald Trump. One, are you afraid that you may pass out from lack of oxygen because he's on the stage with you? And two, what do you think that he offers to this debate? Do you think you need Donald Trump in your number?

[07:10:14] CARSON: I welcome Donald Trump. He's obviously a man of significant accomplishment. And you know, we have a process whereby a lot of different individuals will have an opportunity to place forth their vision of what America should be. And we can analyze that vision with respect to what they have done in their lives and make a decision. That's the beauty of the American political system.

CUOMO: Are you surprised that the Donald is in second place? He is. He can't believe he's not in first. He can't believe Jeb Bush is in first place. Are you surprised he's in second? And what message does that send to you and the other candidates?

CARSON: That the numbers are going to jump around. And, you know, I'm happy for him. It's good. It's a good, healthy process. I'm glad we're going to be able to hear lots of different voices.

CUOMO: All right. Dr. Carson, I appreciate you being on the show. We'll see what happens with the flag. We look forward to coming back to you, if you're in the race, on the issues that are becoming important to this election. Thank you, sir.

CARSON: Absolutely.

CUOMO: All right. Mick.

MICHAELA PEREIRA, CNN ANCHOR: All right. We turn to the manhunt for two convicted killers still on the run, possibly barefoot. We're learning new information about these two convicts that are still on the run in upstate New York as new details emerge about how Joyce Mitchell apparently got other guards to do favors for the convicts she's accused of helping break out of that prison.

CNN's Boris Sanchez is live now with the latest from Cadyville, New York.

Good morning to you, Boris.

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Michaela.

Law enforcement getting ready for another day of searching in these mountains, as we learn new revelations about Joyce Mitchell. We're hearing from law enforcement sources that she has admitted to sneaking hacksaw blades inside frozen hamburger meat into the prison. We're learning that she convinced a guard, Gene Palmer, to pass the meat through without going through a metal detector. Obviously, a violation of prison policy.

From what we hear from Palmer's attorney, he says his client was duped by Mitchell. Apparently, we're also hearing that she's tried to gain favors for the inmates, Richard Matt and David Sweat, by offering pastries to guards at the prison. At one point, a law enforcement source tells us, she may have even asked to have David Sweat's cell moved next to Richard Matt's. So intriguing revelations there.

Also, we got word that the inmates may be barefoot, as you mentioned earlier. Just a few moments ago, I spoke to a law enforcement official who said that that is unlikely, because the terrain is so difficult to move around, even when you're wearing boots. It certainly would have slowed them down. They would have been caught by now if they had been barefoot. Regardless, investigators are hoping the men are caught soon -- Chris.

CUOMO: All right. We'll stay on it. Boris, thank you very much.

There are also new revelations about the final moments of Freddie Gray's life. "The Baltimore Sun" has obtained a copy of Gray's autopsy report. OK? And it says he suffered a high-energy injury to his neck and spine. What does that mean, and why do they think it happened in this report? We have it for you.

CNNs Joe Johns is with us in Washington. Tell us.

JOE JOHNS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Chris, with six Baltimore police officers charged in this case who just pleaded not guilty, this report will be carefully scrutinized for what it says and what it does not say.

It still hasn't been released publicly, because it's part of the evidence, but it was leaked to "The Baltimore Sun." And the newspaper reports that it was ruled a homicide, that the injury occurred inside a police van while Freddie Gray was in custody.

The paper says Gray suffered a single high-energy injury like those seen in shallow water diving incidents, most likely caused when the van suddenly stopped.

It says the most significant injury to Gary was to the lower left part of his head and that the injury may have resulted when he got on his feet and was thrown into the wall of the van. Gray was not in a seatbelt at the time, but the report said his wrists and ankles were shackled, making him at risk for an unsupported fall.

Gray's death was deemed a homicide. It could not be ruled an accident, because what were referred to as omissions by the officers who handled Gray after his arrest. The officers allegedly failed to follow safety procedures, including fastening Gray's seatbelt and getting him timely medical attention, Michaela.

PEREIRA: A forensic scientist is going to join us next block to talk about what all of this could mean. Thank you for bringing that to us.

We turn now to the weather. Major damage being reported along the East Coast this morning after a strong round of early summer storms. In fact, look at this. A possible tornado caught on camera in New Jersey, sending debris and even the cameraman flying. Trees and power lines are down in several states, Maryland included, where one person was killed while driving. More than 400,000 customers remain without power this morning.

CUOMO: Wow. I mean, you know, we hear about bad weather all the time. But you've got to just remember how it wrecks people's lives for weeks and months to come.

PEREIRA: and what's so interesting is, like, the clock -- you know, the calendar turned into summer and boom, the storms just kicked right up.

[07:15:05] CUOMO: Look, it comes every year. But it doesn't mean it's not bad for them.

PEREIRA: No.

CUOMO: It doesn't mean we don't have to pay attention.

PEREIRA: Yes. CUOMO: So that's why we're telling you about it.

All right. And we also have for you new details emerging from this Freddie Gray leaked autopsy report. You just heard Joe Johns. Now we're going to take that next step. So what do we know about how he likely died? Was it simply an accident? And if not, will it impact the Baltimore police officers charged in his death? Is it a big part of the case? We'll take a look, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PEREIRA: So, we are learning more about Freddie Gray's death this morning. A copy of the autopsy report obtained by "The Baltimore Sun" shows that Gray suffered a, quote, "high-energy injury" inside the police transport van that he was riding in.

We want to break this down with CNN contributor Lawrence Kobilinsky. He is a forensic scientist at John Jay College of Criminal Justice. Also here, CNN legal analyst Paul Callan. He is a criminal defense attorney and former prosecutor.

Gentlemen, very interesting, and you both had a chance to look at all of this. Again, this is something that "The Baltimore Sun" got their hands on.

Dr. Kobilinsky, I've got to get you to sort of define some things for us. This high-energy injury, explain to us what this means in layman's terms.

DR. LAWRENCE KOBILINSKY, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, in layman's terms, it's not easy to fracture three cervical neck vertebrae. You need force.

PEREIRA: Great force?

[07:20:04] KOBILINSKY: Great force. And that's what that implies. They're saying there was a single traumatic injury that not only fractured the three vertebrae but also severed a good portion of the spinal cord.

PEREIRA: They kind of thing can be cause by the -- they say it's a similar injury to something that somebody that would have had a shallow-water diving incident, right?

KOBILINSKY: It could be. That's correct.

PEREIRA: And does that seem a fair comparison, given what we know of the injuries that he suffered and how he died? That he died?

KOBILINSKY: Well, I mean, there was always the question in my mind as to whether the vertebra had been fractured prior to him getting into the van.

PEREIRA: The takedown? The arrest, et cetera?

KOBILINSKY: Yes. I think what we're reading about in this article that "The Baltimore Sun" has put out is that there's hypotheses; there's surmising. They're guessing, based upon what they've seen and heard.

PEREIRA: Right.

KOBILINSKY: I think there are still some questions.

PEREIRA: OK. Well, let's get to that. And then I want -- I want both a scientific and a legal perspective on that. This, from "The Baltimore Sun," the medical examiner's report, sort of gives two scenarios, as you mentioned.

One, the M.I. [SIC] surmised, using that exact word that you used, that Gray, not being belted in, could have stood up while he was shackled, both his wrists and his ankles, and that a sudden movement, a sharp movement of that transport van, either an acceleration or a deceleration, would have been an unrestrained fall, and that could have caused the injury.

KOBILINSKY: What's very interesting here -- obviously, they didn't seatbelt him. That's crucial.

However, they put him in that van prone, on his stomach. And of course, he couldn't move around. In that position, even if the van had accelerated, decelerated, changed positions back and forth, he could not have broken his neck under those circumstances.

PEREIRA: But if he had been standing -- because their supposition, he could have gotten to his feet and fell. That could have resulted in that kind of injury.

KOBILINSKY: That could have been the force needed to break his neck.

PEREIRA: But the M.E. also says there is potential that he could have wriggled around while he was prone on the ground. You think that's less likely?

KOBILINSKY: I think he could not have broken his neck that way.

PEREIRA: Let's talk legally here. When you see this report from "The Baltimore Sun," the report from the M.E., what does it tell you right off the bat? Does this change at all the culpability of the police officers in.

PAUL CALLAN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: It demonstrates to me how difficult this case is. It's a complex case with a very unusual theory. I mean, usually in cases like this of excessive force, the cop shoots somebody, and they don't have justification for it. So there's no issue about what was the injury.

PEREIRA: You can look at ballistics. You can look at all sort of other things. None of that evolved here.

CALLAN: Here, you have Freddie Gray in the control of the police over an extended period of time. A lot of police officers are coming in and out of the picture. And the prosecutor is going to have to prove for each of these officers that they should have known that Freddie Gray was injured and that Freddie Gray needed medical assistance and that he should not have been shackled and cuffed in this dangerous, careening van.

PEREIRA: And that he should have been belted.

CALLAN: But who's responsible? Is it the driver? Is it the lieutenant who ordered the arrest and who checked on him a couple of times? Or is it the lower-ranking officers who were there? This is what a jury's going to struggle with.

PEREIRA: So let me give you this supposition. So let's say you're having to defend it. All six officers have pleaded not guilty. If you are going to defend them, given all of those variables and now given this leaked medical report, how do you defend the -- and I know it's going to vary depending on the driver or the arresting officer. But how do you defend them?

CALLAN: Well, I say it's a difficult case, because even if you are suing for money damages in a civil case, if a doctor in that -- for instance, if a doctor leaves a sponge in after surgery but you don't know if the doctor left it or the nurse or somebody else in the operating room. You know what the law says? You're all responsible. The patient is unconscious. He doesn't know who did it. And that's how it works civilly.

It doesn't work that way criminally. You have to go beyond a reasonable doubt. And you're going to see the lieutenant, who ordered the arrest initially. Remember, the bike patrol with three officers in the beginning. Those other two officers are going to say, "Hey, we were just following orders. Why are we being charged for doing what our commanders told us to do?" And you're going to see these officers split up in terms of their defenses, and each say, "I did not know he was in extremis. And I'm not responsible."

KOBILINSKY: But the issue of depraved heart murder. That charge on the van driver, Goodson, can that hold up? Because it seems to me, this is not a willful intent to kill. This was somewhat of an accident.

PEREIRA: It could be negligence. Not necessarily...

KOBILINSKY: A lesser charge might make more sense.

CALLAN: Depraved heart is almost the equivalent of intentionally killing somebody.

PEREIRA: They have to meet that level?

CALLAN: It's something that is so clearly, grossly negligent that it's the fundamental equivalent of pointing a gun at somebody and shooting.

PEREIRA: Did they charge them? Did they ever charge anything?

CALLAN: They're charged with depraved heart murder. Goodson is, the driver. And he's going to say that's overcharge, that maybe it should be manslaughter or something less.

[07:25:04] PEREIRA: Paul Callan, Dr. Larry Kobilinsky, always a pleasure to dig through this with you. Thank you so much. A terrible story. But I'm glad we got your perspective -- Chris.

CUOMO: You know, Mick, the flag, the Confederate flag, has become a metaphor for political leadership, for the state of race in America. So we're taking a look at how those who want to lead us have dealt with it.

Hillary Clinton called the Charleston shooting racist terrorism and says America's struggle with race is far from finished. So how will all this play out as she makes race a central theme for her 2016 campaign? We're going to talk John King to do the analysis on "Inside Politics."

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CUOMO: So, lawmakers in South Carolina are agreeing to debate an initiative to remove the Confederate flag from the state capitol. This is just a week, of course, after nine people were murdered in a black church in Charleston.

States like Mississippi, Tennessee, Virginia, maybe even Florida may have discussions like this to have because of representations of the Confederacy in their own state symbols.

On the other side, the businesses have gotten involved. Corporations like eBay, Amazon, Target and Sears not only expressed their feelings about this, but they announced that they, themselves will no longer sell the Confederate flag merchandise.