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D.C. Mansion Murders; Confederate Flag Under Debate; Pres. Obama Uses N-Word to Discuss Race in America. Aired 8:30-9a ET

Aired June 23, 2015 - 08:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[08:30:00] PAMELA BROWN, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): A bizarre u-turn. Fernandez (ph) radios for helicopter backup and makes his move.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I decided that we just had to take the cars down.

BROWN (on camera): And it was right here, right?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's right. Command was given, go, go, go, and we did it just like we practiced. Pinched the car in. The other car came around on the side, blocked it off.

BROWN (voice-over): Fernandez and his team quickly removed the occupants of both vehicles.

BROWN (on camera): What was Wint like? Was he combative at all? Was he compliant?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When he came out, his body posture and the look on his face was like he was thinking about running. But we were right on top of him and he never got a chance.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: He is behind bars, held without bail. But this manhunt lead to the discovery of new clues, Chris. We've learned that Daron Wint's cousin also worked with him at American Iron Works. That was the company owned by the Savopoulos family. And, in fact, his cousin was fired 10 years ago around the same time that Daron Wint left. Not only that, but we learned that the company took out a restraining order against the -- against Daron Wint's cousin because he had threatened, at that time, to burn the place down.

We should note, though, that only Daron Wint has been arrested in this case, but the investigation is still very active. They do believe that Daron Wint did not act alone.

Chris.

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: Relevant reporting. Pamela, we look forward to looking at it.

And the CNN special report, for all of you, "The D.C. Mansion Murders" airs tonight. That's 9:30 p.m. Eastern. MICHAELA PEREIRA, CNN ANCHOR: All right, the GOP presidential

candidates are reserving a stance on the matter of the confederate flag. But now that South Carolina's governor is calling for its removal, will they speak up? We'll discuss that ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:35:41] CUOMO: The massacre in Charleston is a hate crime and the goal now is to heal and that's going to put racism necessarily on the table. And the confederate flag is a symbol of that problem to many. In response, South Carolina's governor wants it removed from statehouse grounds and a top Mississippi Republican wants the confederate portion removed from his state's flag.

But many of the Republican presidential candidates are not weighing in, saying that this is a debate that should be left to the states. Should it? We discuss. And there's also a big poll for you this morning.

Let's bring in CNN political contributor Tara Setmayer and CNN political commentator and Democratic strategist Paul Begala. He is a co-chair of a pro-Hillary Clinton super PAC.

All right, so, make the case for why, as someone who wants to be president of the United States, you want to stay out of this issue?

TARA SETMAYER, CNN POLITICAL CONTRIBUTOR: Well, I think that there's two reasons and, yes, I've been very clear that I think that the presidential candidates should have been more unequivocal, though who have not been. I think that they should have been more unequivocal about where they stood on this issue and not -- and in combination with the states' rights issue.

I think it's important to say that, yes, as an outsider, as someone that's not a part of these states, that who am I to tell them what to do. But at the same time, I think it was also appropriate for them to say, look, this is a symbol of hate, a symbol of treason, a symbol of bloodshed and slavery and it's something that's horrible and that we should no longer be glorifying it in any official capacity in any state in the union. If we're trying to unify and heal after something like what just took place in Charleston, the history of this symbol needs to be no longer glorified in a way that is just so device to so many people and I think we're finally having that conversation.

CUOMO: Do you think that it was really just states' rights that was motivating people to stay out of it, or do you think that they were trying to kind of slip by it because you've got a big conservative Republican base down there --

SETMAYER: Yes.

CUOMO: Who may not like if you say to take the flag down?

SETMAYER: Right, it's a sticky issue for -- for the south. It has been for years. It's a very emotional one. We're still talking about this decades and decades later. So, obviously, there -- there -- some of these candidates are worrying about the calculated political risks of alienating certain people in the base. But I think at some point the principle of this has to trump politics and I think that given the context that we're in now and given the climate that we're in now, the confederate flag is not something that I think is going to necessarily cost a candidate the polls are not. I mean a Winthrop poll showed that only 15 percent of people in the south have a positive -- very positive view of the confederate flag. So I think --

CUOMO: And yet these referendums went the right way. There's seven different flags that could be seen to be borrowing from the confederate --

SETMAYER: I think we're going to see a change in that.

CUOMO: So we'll be seeing more of that. More opportunities.

One quick thing for you on this, Paul. The Hillary Rodham Clinton campaign comes out and says, as she had said back in 2007, I don't like the confederate flag, you should take it down. Does she have to answer for her time as first lady in Arkansas with Bill standing by the Arkansas flag proudly when it too is said to borrow from the confederate symbology (ph)?

PAUL BEGALA, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, sure. Absolutely. Times change and circumstances change. I have -- I think Tara made some very good points here. I have some experience with this myself. Twenty-two years ago, Zell Miller was the first governor that I know of to take on that confederate flag in Georgia.

SETMAYER: In Georgia.

BEGALA: The confederate flag at the time, the old battle flag, was part of the Georgia flag.

CUOMO: Right.

BEGALA: And 22 years ago, Zell Miller tried to take that off with, by the way, the help and support of his friend, Bill Clinton, and we failed. The people of Georgia kicked our butt and Zell Miller was as good a politician as I've ever known. So this is a very, very difficult issue. I am really thrilled at the rapid progress after 20 years of waiting that South Carolina has made and the fact that corporate America is now weighing in. This is a completely different country than it was 20 or 30 years ago.

SETMAYER: I'm actually glad to hear that Paul said that Hillary should have to answer for that because when Bill Clinton, it's well remembered, when he was governor, he celebrated Confederate Flag Day in Arkansas every year and Hillary Clinton was there as a willing participant.

BEGALA: And a lot of Democrats put these flags (INAUDIBLE).

SETMAYER: That's correct. And, you know, he -- 1987, he signed the legislation that put the star, the confederate star, on the flag there to represent that. So I'm glad to see that she's evolved. But I think then she should also be scrutinized and forced to answer and explain her change in position, just like the Republicans have.

CUOMO: That's fine --

BEGALA: Right.

CUOMO: But the big sin right now to me is ducking this issue and saying it's a state's rights issue. Racism is a national issue.

SETMAYER: Yes.

[08:40:00] CUOMO: But (INAUDIBLE). Let's see how it's reflecting in the polls right now. We've got new numbers. Let's look at the democratic field. OK. They thought that Hillary was on the wane. Not against the field right now. Bernie obviously representing, Senator Sanders, the more liberal extreme in that party, but 75 to 15.

Look at the Republican field. All right, we do see some apportionment going on now. Ben Carson holding steady in the middle of that pack. But you do see Jeb Bush starting to get some distance on the field and Christie's woes remain there. And Rick Perry's entry there not really hitting a lot of sparks right now.

Now, what about the big heavyweights from each side? What do we see? Forty-eight to 40. All right, now, what do you think, Tara, is this kind of what you expect at this point because we're so far out?

SETMAYER: Yes, because, you know, we're -- at this point it's really not a national election because you have to go through the primary process first. So what's important are the polls that are in North -- South Carolina, New Hampshire, Iowa, Nevada, all the primary states, because it doesn't matter what the national polls are, you have to get a nominee first and each one has to go through that.

Now, Hillary Clinton up against -- she's been pretty consistent up against Bush and Rubio. Like it fluctuated a couple points here and there. Everyone gets a boost when they have an announcement. She finally did her, I guess, second announcement of the relaunch again recently. So that gives her a boost. Same thing with Bush. He just had an announcement in the last.

But what's interesting -- and Paul can probably speak to this, is that Bernie Sanders is inching up on Hillary Clinton in places like New Hampshire and Iowa, where he's within 10 percent. That's something that most people didn't --

CUOMO: He's going to test her on the base.

SETMAYER: That's right. He's -- the enthusiasm gap is -- is interesting.

CUOMO: He's going to test her on the base but she's more -- she's more centrist. But sometime there's motivation within the party that doesn't wind up being manifested by the party.

Let me ask you one quick thing, Paul. If somebody were going to come into the field to challenge Hillary Clinton, who do you think poses more of a threat, John Kerry or Joe Biden?

BEGALA: Well, they're both phenomenal and to --

CUOMO: Got to pick it. Pick it, Begala. Don't hedge on me.

BEGALA: No, I honestly don't know. You'd have to put them on the track. You know, we -- I don't think either of them has ever said that they're running. I guess the vice president has kept that option open. The secretary of state is a little busy right now.

But, fundamentally, there's going to be a contest in my party. And Tara's right, Bernie has moved -- he's in the double digits nationally. That's not what's most important. What's most important is what Tara said, look at those early states, Iowa, Nebraska. You're going to have a tough, tough primary battle. You -- I've been saying this for months. This is going to be very close. Hillary will win. I really believe she will. Of course you know I work for a super PAC that supports her. But this is not going to be a coronation. Democrats will never allow a coronation.

CUOMO: All right, Tara Setmayer, thank you very much.

Paul Begala, as always.

What do you think? Tweet us using the #newdaycnn or post your comment on facebook.com/newday. You have whether or not you should duck the flag issue and what do you think of Begala's shameless avoiding of my question?

Mic.

PEREIRA: All right, Chris.

President Obama using some powerful language to make a point about racism. Was his use of the n-word appropriate? What does real change look like in terms of combatting racism in America? It's a big discussion. We're going to dive into it, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:46:31] PEREIRA: President Obama delivering a very blunt assessment of race relations in the United States. The president was speaking on comedian Marc Moran's podcast. And he used the very word that many consider offensive. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Racism we are not cured of clearly. It's not just a matter of it not being polite to say nigger in public. That's not the measure of whether racism still exists or not. It's not just a matter of overt discrimination. We have -- societies don't overnight completely erase everything that happened 200 to 300 years prior.

(END VIDEO CLIP) PEREIRA: And so began the -- I want to turn to Tim Weiss and CNN political commentator and op ed commentator Charles Blow. We'll put that aside and leave Chris's bad sense of humor out of it.

Let's talk about the appropriate nature, first of all. Charles, I'll ask you. Appropriate use? Granted, it was in context to make a point about racism. You take issue with the fact he used it?

CHARLES BLOW, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I didn't take issue with the fact that he used it because I understood the context of it. He wasn't using it as an invective. He was using it as an instrument of illustration and also saying, in the very breath that he's using the word, how impolite it is to use it in public discourse and that that is not -- and I'm looking also the bigger picture of it, which is what he's saying that this is not the marker of what racism looks like. It is not necessarily articulated. The fact that we don't necessarily have people walking around using racial slurs does not mean that racism disappears with the absence of the language. And I think the idea, that is a really big idea, and it should not get lost in this conversation.

PEREIRA: Well, and that's an important thing. And I want to run with that in a second. Tim, how about you? Do you understand what all the fuss is about here?

TIM WEISS, AUTHOR, "DEAR WHITE PEOPLE" AND "COLORBLIND": Well, I understand that conservatives on Twitter wanted to make an issue out of this because they, a lot of them white folks, don't understand why a black man can say that word, even in context, and they can't. Which is really interesting, like why the white folks need to say the word so badly that they're upset when they can't.

Let me just really clearly articulate the difference between the president, a man of color, using that term in context, and a white person using it any time. The difference is -- it's like, I'm a southerner, right? And I don't much like it when Jeff Foxworthy does 20 minutes of redneck jokes in his act. But that's sort of how he made his career and I don't flinch at it because he's a Southerner. So when he uses that term, I don't think to myself, wait a minute, maybe he hates Southern rural folks, because I know he's part of the family.

On the other hand, if Jerry Seinfeld were to stand up and do 20 minutes of redneck jokes, I would have a problem with that, or Jay Leno, because they're not in the family. It goes back to third grade or maybe kindergarten wisdom, which is I can talk about my mama, but you cannot talk about my mama.

PEREIRA: Don't you talk about my mama!

WEISS: And so whether or not it's appropriate, whether or not he should have said it, obviously he was sort of indirectly quoting others. The real issue is, for those of us who are white, to think that we ought to be able to say it because black folks often or sometimes do is absolutely absurd. It's a mentality of entitlement. It's not appropriate for us. It's like I'm Jewish. If I tell Jewish jokes, that's one thing. If the Jewish joke is in the church bulletin, we have a problem. There's a different context.

[08:50:01] PEREIRA: I've been watching -- I've been watching a very interesting thing happen in the last year or so among my friends, colleagues, peers of color, talking about the fact how do we feel about it? Where do we stand? And it's an interesting dialogue to have within the black community. What are you hearing? What is your experience with that?

BLOW: Well, my experience -- I mean, I'm a writer, right. So I come at it from a linguistic perspective, which is that you cannot excise the language because the word, as mean and hateful as it can be, is a big word, an important word in the literature.

PEREIRA: And granted, just if we got rid of that world, there's a whole bunch of other words that do as much damage if not more.

BLOW: But you can't actually get rid of it and actually have conversations about history and about hate and about race and about racism in America and get rid of this word. You have to use it, but you have to use it in context -- historical context, kind of instructional context, which is what the president was doing here.

He uses this word several times in his memoir. I wrote a memoir; I used it several times in my memoir because it is historical. It means something in that moment. I can't -- I couldn't talk about my coming into self as a racialized person in a predominantly white country without illustrating the moment that I first heard that word used against me, or talking about how that word was used in, as Tim was saying, in groups where people take words that are meant to hurt and play around with it --

WEISS: And we've seen, we've seen that.

BLOW: -- like silly putty, right, and so that it gets soft and so that it doesn't hurt you every time that you hear it. And that happens not only with -- in racial groups. It happens with --

PEREIRA: We've seen it in the women's lib movement.

BLOW: All sorts of places.

PEREIRA: We've seen it in the gay community. We've seen the idea of reclaiming. What of that, Tim? In terms of the usage of this word. I mean, we've been debating this here at CNN for a long time, but about the idea of reclaiming a word and the usage of it. I mean that's not -- again, this was not contextually what the president was talking about. He was talking about it; he was talking about the state of race in this country. Why is it so difficult for us to have these conversations in this nation?

WEISS: Well, part of the difficulty is we're focused more on the terminology. I think this is the point the president was trying to make. We're dealing with the terminology and not the systemic and the structural injustice that is at the root of that. It's the system of inequality which actually dehumanizes black and brown bodies to the point where people, like this shooter in Charleston, go and use that term openly in his manifesto. We need to deal with the systemic and the structural, and the personal will take care of itself once we've dealt with the larger problems.

PEREIRA: And the problem there is you're not going to get consensus, right, on the fact that those structural and institutional problems exist. That's where the problems lie.

BLOW: But this is illustrative of that, right. So if you can be up and arms about the president using this word one time and not up in arms about all of the other presidents who have used this word in ways that were meant to be destructive and mean and dismissive of black people. If you cannot be angry with those presidents, who weren't talking into a live make, consciously making the choice to say this is wrong to do, but rather doing it in background, in ways that they never thought would ever see the light of day. If you are not just as upset at this man being called the n-word as him uttering the word, then you are part of the structural racism that makes this conversation almost impossible.

PEREIRA: Is there anything, Tim, to the idea that the noise about the president's use of this word is going to supersede what he was trying to say?

WEISS: Oh, well, of course. Because it's a distraction. If we can make President Obama the reason for every problem under the sun, politicizing whatever he says, then we don't have to deal with racism. "The Wall Street Journal" said in an editorial, you know, institutional racism is dead. Folks on other networks have been trying to make this about every issue under the sun except racism.

So I think, at some point, we've got to realize this shooting and everything surrounding it is about, fundamentally, an unwillingness of a lot of white folks, not just this white terrorist who shot and killed these nine people, but white America writ large to not grapple honestly with our history and the implications of that history in the present. Until we do that, not only will the Civil War not be over, but the future of this country is going to be considerably in doubt as well.

BLOW: Absolutely.

PEREIRA: There are no two better people that I'd rather have this conversation with. Because, again, this is not easy. This is not simple. It is uncomfortable. I get that. But I think it is something that we need to do.

Tim Weiss, Charles Blow, thanks so much for an intelligent conversation with me.

BLOW: You bet, thank you.

PEREIRA: All right, Chris, what you got coming up?

CUOMO: I've got ten years, I've got two heroes, and one incredible thank you. It is the Good Stuff and it's coming up.

[08:54:47]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CUOMO: All right, you ready for this?

PEREIRA: Yes, I am so ready.

CUOMO: Jasmine Doss just graduated from Northwestern. Hooray!

PEREIRA: Congratulations! Well done, Jasmine.

CUOMO: She would not have been there if it hadn't been for Chicago firefighter John Patton and Richard Risoto (ph). Here's why. She's 13 years old, she's in a burning building. They come, they pull her out, they save her life. She literally came like this close to dying. So that's just the past and she moved on, right? Wrong. Ten years later, Jasmine remembers, made sure they were the guests of honor at her graduation.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JASMINE DOSS (ph): So grateful for these two, because if it wasn't for them, I would not be here today.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CUOMO: The heroes, of course, say she's absolutely right. No. They say it was just part of the job. Humble as always.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is what it's all about, you know.

DOSS (ph): I love him.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CUOMO: One line sums it up. She plans to devote her life to service as well. She's going to become a police officer.

PEREIRA: Isn't that incredible? You think that often that this is just one and done. You don't know about the person after you save them or you have an encounter with them. I love that both parties remember each other.

Thanks for that Good Stuff, Chris.

CUOMO: Oh, you're welcome.

PEREIRA: Shall we go to NEWSROOM with Carol Costello?

CUOMO: Please do.

CAMEROTA: Let's do it. Hi Carol, good morning.

CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR, "NEWSROOM": We shall. Good morning. You guys have a great day.

PEREIRA: Agreement, consensus!

COSTELLO: Consensus. Have a great day.

"NEWSROOM" starts now.